ejmmsu
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NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:44 am

"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
AirRyan
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:49 am

Is it just me or does any source entitled the "militant" seem hardly objectionable? Anywyas, while the aritcle may be recent the news on the other hand is not - NW has already busted their mechanics union and while they are all but likely to gain their desired concessions from the FA's as well, I don't think any airline would/could break the ALPA.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:57 am

I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!
Puhdiddle
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!

I would LOVE to hear your anger towards NWA and their treating of employees? Please do share your thoughts on how they have "hurt" their employees?
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees.

Yea, but you shutdown the company and 35,000 employees will suffer. Steenland and other execs will walk away with millions of dollars, enough to live comfortably the rest of their lives whether they work again or not.

I was part of the union movement at Eastern Air Lines that ultimately shutdown the company. Sure we got Lorenzo out of our lives, but we also got rid of a pretty nice paycheck.

I hope the bankruptcy judge puts the brakes on the requests of NWA management to quickly void their contracts. NWA is NOT on the verge of shutting down because of lack of cash.

It is fact (and the law) that the executive's first obligation is to maintain the value of owner (stockholder) investment (equity). Steenland has a perfectly legal argument that continued losses are due in part to high labor costs. But because they are not anywhere close to running out of operating cash, I think NWA should still be obligated to negotiating changes to their labor agreements. They could ground the gas-guzzling DC9's, sell their real-estate in Japan (worth billions), return expensive leased equipment and other steps to restore profitability.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
goaliemn
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:26 am

I'm sure all the other employees will love "feeling the pain" with Steeland..

Everyone focuses their anger on one person, and wants thousands to lose their jobs in the process..

[Edited 2005-10-25 18:28:32]
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
I think NWA should still be obligated to negotiating changes to their labor agreements.

Negotiating works both ways. As well as understanding of the situation. Frankly speaking, AMFA deserves everything it gets now, they had the chance earlier but chose not to accept.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
They could ground the gas-guzzling DC9's

Granted they are Gas Guzzlers, but they also account for quite a bit of NWA's short haul/low capacity routes. However they do have plans and are in the works to retires the DC-9's right now.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
sell their real-estate in Japan (worth billions

Thats probably the worst idea for them. The Japan/Asia market is a very good market for them. I think NWA idea of having a hub in the Europe and Asia side is absolutely brilliant..giving them a WORLD presence.

I think NWA's strategy is try to lower cost in every way without forcing the withdrawl of routes. NWA takes and should be very proud of their Route Network and as with any airline, they would love to preserve their route network as much as they can, as obviously trimming youre route also trims the number of passengars which in turn also trims the amount of income.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:33 am

Checking the AMFA, PFAA, and IAM websites there is no mention of this. Either this is a pro-forma move by the Company the unions are not terribly bothered about, it is not necessarily accurate, or it is a bargaining chip to extract more concessions from the unions.

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!

If NW liquidates I guarantee it will hurt their employees. This kind of "off with their heads" attitude is just not helpful.

Charles, SJ

(Edited for spelling and accuracy)

[Edited 2005-10-25 18:43:51]
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:48 am

Interesting thing here, the article is dated 31OCTOBER2005
Made from jets!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!

I salute your hatred for Steenland, but I hope you would like to see Steenland pulled from the ranks and thrown in jail rather than see NW actually go down. Most of us would like NW to survive, but with a better managment team.
Made from jets!
 
UAcosCS
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 6):
Thats probably the worst idea for them. The Japan/Asia market is a very good market for them. I think NWA idea of having a hub in the Europe and Asia side is absolutely brilliant..giving them a WORLD presence.

They may have world presence, but they arent a world player. My opinion.
We had dreams and songs to sing, It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry.
 
DCrawley
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 6):
I think NWA's strategy is try to lower cost in every way without forcing the withdrawl of routes.

IMO, they are going to have to lose some routes and frequencies.

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 6):
NWA takes and should be very proud of their Route Network and as with any airline, they would love to preserve their route network as much as they can

As much as I would like to agree with you, unfortunately in the airline industry it's profit over pride and some routes will go..

-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 10):
They may have world presence, but they arent a world player. My opinion

How would you not call them a world player? I dont see them trying to stifle competition like British Airways tried to do in London with Virgin Atlantic back then.

What opinion do you have that leads you to conclude that NWA is not a world player?
 
N1120A
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:04 am

[quote=Jetdeltamsy,reply=4]Yea, but you shutdown the company and 35,000 employees will suffer.quote]

And they wont suffer in a job that pays them barely enough to survive?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:04 am

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 11):
As much as I would like to agree with you, unfortunately in the airline industry it's profit over pride and some routes will go..

Oh I agree with you as well. Some routes will have to go unfortunately, but they are trying their best to preserve all of them.

Some will have to go and it will be sad, but also...I want them stay ALIVE!

NWA is the ONLY airline I enjoy flying in the USA.
 
AirScoot
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:05 am

He works for their main competition in Asia (UA)?
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
And they wont suffer in a job that pays them barely enough to survive?

Oh they will survive just fine...just like the rest of us who have either got layed off or taken drastic salary cuts as well.

The only thing they will miss is their luxury lifestyle they could enjoy with their cushy salaries.
 
UAcosCS
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 12):
What opinion do you have that leads you to conclude that NWA is not a world player?

That is my opinion, you now have to deal with it. NWA is just another airline, they have world presence, but being a player is shaking things up. They don't control UAL in the pacific rim, they aren't a player in Europe without KLM, they have no presence in South America, No flight to Australia, horrible DC-9's domestically, that is my opinion, player and presence is a different word in more ways than one.

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 15):
He works for their main competition in Asia (UA)?

You are a rocket man!
We had dreams and songs to sing, It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 16):
The only thing they will miss is their luxury lifestyle

So things like food, mortgage payments and gasoline are luxuries to you?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 17):
That is my opinion, you now have to deal with it. NWA is just another airline, they have world presence, but being a player is shaking things up. They don't control UAL in the pacific rim, they aren't a player in Europe without KLM, they have no presence in South America, No flight to Australia, horrible DC-9's domestically, that is my opinion, player and presence is a different word in more ways than one.

Of course it is your opinion, that is why I am asking of what your thoughts are.
NWA does have a presence in Europe without KLM, they have quite a few destinations in Europe they fly directly. But besides, it always in any airlines best interest to partner with other airlines for service. AA, UAL, others do the same thing. Personally NWA partnering with Continental, and KLM is a good business decision, even for any other company that partners. AA is just now starting service to India. For this long they partnered with Air India on ORD to India routes.

I will agree with you that the DC-9's are horrible and no fun.

And yes they did take away their route to Sydney which I once flew on and personally I think its a bad decision.

But I still feel NWA has a nice word presence or player and done so in smart business methods.
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
So things like food, mortgage payments and gasoline are luxuries to you?

I personally have been managing to get buy just fine with Food, Gas, and Mortgage payments. And I also have taken DRASTIC pay cuts at my work as well.

It is well known that NWA mechanics have been paid quite a bit higher than the industry average for quite sometime.

Again the AMFA had their chance then...but are now completely screwed and its their fault. They had the chance then to keep approx 1800 employees and now may only get to keep 500 if that even.

Gee that strike did a lot of good....
 
N1120A
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 16):
The only thing they will miss is their luxury lifestyle they could enjoy with their cushy salaries.

Cushy salaries? You mean the ones that can't even buy them a starter home in many cities in the US?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Cushy salaries? You mean the ones that can't even buy them a starter home in many cities in the US?

And actually yeah starter homes in US can be quite affordable. Just need to look and shop smart.
 
Dougloid
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
NW has already busted their mechanics union and while they are all but likely to gain their desired concessions from the FA's as well, I don't think any airline would/could break the ALPA.

Famous last words. Consider the words of Pastor Niemoller.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
DAYflyer
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees

I find you lack of compassion disturbing. You want 35,000 people to suffer to get even with ONE man? I would think you would just say to replace the management and start over.......

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 20):
Gee that strike did a lot of good....

They may have been better to take Hemlock. A lot less fuss and bother.
One Nation Under God
 
mrocktor
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
So things like food, mortgage payments and gasoline are luxuries to you?

So, how exactly is the company you work for responsible for the obligations you assumed?

Why is it your employer's responsibility to keep you fed and your bills paid? He buys your work, period. If what he offers is not what you are worth, go work elsewhere. If what he offers is what you are worth, or in other words, if you cannot or will not get a better position elsewhere, you should not be complaining.

mrocktor
 
N1120A
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 22):
And actually yeah starter homes in US can be quite affordable. Just need to look and shop smart.

Um, yeah, sure they are. Hence why a family of 4 needs 4 times what your average FA or mechanic CURRENTLY makes in many communities?

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 25):
So, how exactly is the company you work for responsible for the obligations you assumed?

The obligation to live? Yeah, ok, don't eat, die and you wont have to worry about a job. Or perhaps you can not turn your heat on on a -25 degree day in Minneapolis and freeze to death? Better yet, go on food stamps and have the government pay to feed your family food that many governments find unfit. That makes absolutely no sense

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 25):
Why is it your employer's responsibility to keep you fed and your bills paid?

It is their responsibility because you have traded the ability to do other things to work for them. If you are working under an employment contract, which NW's employees are, you plan your future based on your expectations of earning from that contract. These people don't go out and buy million dollar homes and Ferraris when they know full well their salaries wont pay for it. They go to work for large companies like airlines because they provide decent health care for a family and they enter into employment contracts so they can plan for their futures. Those contracts create a duty in the employer to provide employment at the agreed upon compensation level, along with other benefits provided for under the contract. What Northwest is trying to do is get around contracts by using the bankruptcy court. The thing is, bankruptcy law was changed after Frank Lorenzo unilaterally imposed contractual terms on Continental Airlines employees specifically because of such abuses and Northwest has to ask a court that is normally unsympathetic to this kind of maneuver.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
D L X
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 6):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
sell their real-estate in Japan (worth billions

Thats probably the worst idea for them. The Japan/Asia market is a very good market for them. I think NWA idea of having a hub in the Europe and Asia side is absolutely brilliant..giving them a WORLD presence.

Just to give you all an idea of how powerful NW's presence in Japan is, I'll tell you this little story. When I was in college, I took Japanese language. The textbook examples where we had to ask whether our flight was on time. The flight was always JAL (jei-ei-eru) or NWA (Norsu-esto).
 
mrocktor
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
The obligation to live? Yeah, ok, don't eat, die and you wont have to worry about a job. Or perhaps you can not turn your heat on on a -25 degree day in Minneapolis and freeze to death? Better yet, go on food stamps and have the government pay to feed your family food that many governments find unfit. That makes absolutely no sense

Yes, it does. You are responsible for your life. If the employer does not pay enough to support your life you need to find another job. Or two.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
Those contracts create a duty in the employer to provide employment at the agreed upon compensation level, along with other benefits provided for under the contract. What Northwest is trying to do is get around contracts by using the bankruptcy court.

Curiously, with this I agree entirely. NWA is screwing over the employees just like they are screwing their debtors and stock holders. That is what going into bankruptcy means, defaulting on obligations. Of course if the employees could be reasoned with, they might not have needed to take this last recourse.

And this does not change the fact that if an employee did not plan for the contingency of losing his job, lives on credit and so on, he fully deserves his fate. You are the sole responsible for your own life. Sure, try to get raparation from the company if it's possible (get in line). You may even decide that continuing to work there is the best alternative. But it is your responsibility.

mrocktor
 
N1120A
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 28):
Yes, it does. You are responsible for your life. If the employer does not pay enough to support your life you need to find another job. Or two.

There are only so many hours in a day, and only so many hours a day that are healthy for a human being to work, particularly when doing a physically demanding job like working a ramp

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 28):
Of course if the employees could be reasoned with, they might not have needed to take this last recourse.

Reasoned with? Northwest was negotiating in bad faith AND headed toward Chapter 11 regardless of whether their mechanics decided to work for free.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 28):
And this does not change the fact that if an employee did not plan for the contingency of losing his job, lives on credit and so on, he fully deserves his fate.



Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 28):
You are the sole responsible for your own life.

Again, I point to the fact that Northwest entered into a contract with each and every one of its employees that made them responsible for paying a certain salary, providing health care, etc. By entering into this contract, Northwest has a duty to provide these things and if they don't, they are liable for any and all damages.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:25 am

It seems some you think that just because NWA signed a contract with its employees, that it must honor that forever despite all other factors.

Heres a hint...NWA CANT AFFORD to keep paying the high costs....so a choice to its employees is this:
1. Take a pay cut and keep your job.
2. Find a new job.
Gee..Interesting options.

AMFA went on strike because NWA was asking for cuts and wanting to save money, AMFA said no that they dont wanna take cuts and they wont let any of their workers go.

Since they went on strike NWA keeps flying STRONG!

After that NWA tried more negotiations, AMFA refused.

Now AMFA is faced with absolutely nothing...they all assumed the strike would cripple the airline. Well NWA proved you WRONG.

Now who losses the game??? AMFA......(they had their chances.....)
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
Um, yeah, sure they are. Hence why a family of 4 needs 4 times what your average FA or mechanic CURRENTLY makes in many communities?

Hmm...thats interesting....I make less than youre average FA or mechanic and yet I still drive a $40,000 car and own a 4 bedroom house.....Hmmmm.....I wonder how that happens.........
 
TPASXM787
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Again, I point to the fact that Northwest entered into a contract with each and every one of its employees that made them responsible for paying a certain salary, providing health care, etc. By entering into this contract, Northwest has a duty to provide these things and if they don't, they are liable for any and all damages.

Problem with this is, if and only if the company cannot pay these salaries due to liquidity, then they must be renegotiated. They can be liable all anyone wants, but if there is no company to pay it, then everyone is even more out of luck than they are now. It sucks, and as I'm not an airline CEO, I have no answers. Thank God I'm not Steenland. I wouldn't want to be that hated.

IIRC, the diesel 9's have about the same fuel economy as the 319s on the short routs that NW uses them on. It's not until the range goes over 1000km or so that the fuel sconomy improves.
This is the Last Stop.
 
B744F
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 31):
Hmm...thats interesting....I make less than youre average FA or mechanic and yet I still drive a $40,000 car and own a 4 bedroom house.....Hmmmm.....I wonder how that happens.........

Did you miss the "in many communities" part? Do you work and own the home by yourself? What are you doing buying such an expensive car in the first place?
 
ahdharia
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
you plan your future based on your expectations of earning from that contract. These people don't go out and buy million dollar homes and Ferraris when they know full well their salaries wont pay for it. They go to work for large companies like airlines because they provide decent health care for a family and they enter into employment contracts so they can plan for their futures. Those contracts create a duty in the employer to provide employment at the agreed upon compensation level, along with other benefits provided for under the contract. What Northwest is trying to do is get around contracts by using the bankruptcy court. The thing is, bankruptcy law was changed after Frank Lorenzo unilaterally imposed contractual terms on Continental Airlines employees specifically because of such abuses and Northwest has to ask a court that is normally unsympathetic to this kind of maneuver.

Thats all fine and dandy and makes complete sense. But you seem to be ignoring the important factor. The company needs to have the resources to pay you the same as what the contract states. Certain market conditions have caused NWA to re-evaluate their situation and hence forcing employees to re-evaluate their situations.

Market conditions can affect an entire industry as we have seen with Airlines and many other ones. It is NEITHER NWA or their EMPLOYEES fault, however both must re-evaluate the conditions and make necessary changes. NWA is making necessary changes, however their Employees refuse to make necessary changes. Well someones gotta loose......and the AMFA will....

The same has happened in my industry I work. Market conditions forced my company to downsize and to give pay cuts to its employees. I had 2 choices, keep my job with a cut, or be out of a job with hardly no other firms hiring.
Seems like a clear cut choice to me........
 
B744F
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 28):
If the employer does not pay enough to support your life you need to find another job. Or two.

If only life were so easy...
 
ctbarnes
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 35):
Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 28):
If the employer does not pay enough to support your life you need to find another job. Or two.

Two jobs, which together pay barely enough to get by, may or may not pay adequate benefits, an implicit suggestion if you call in sick you're fired, if you have children no one is at home to take care of them, worse if you're a single parent.

This is not the exception, it is the rule today. Slave wages to employees working long hours, manditory overtime just so shareholders can inflate the stock price.

And don't anyone DARE say that being a single parent was a choice. If your spouse walks out on you because you're holding down two jobs and spend no time at home, if depression, or substance abuse sets in as a result, or it adversely impacts one's health (at SEA a couple of years ago we had three employees die suddenly within the span of a month-all of them worked on the ramp).

If you think being among the working poor is easy, I suggest you try it for a few months.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 24):
I find you lack of compassion disturbing. You want 35,000 people to suffer to get even with ONE man? I would think you would just say to replace the management and start over.......

You're right... I do apologize. Never thought of it like that. I just want to see Steenland Roast at HIGH HEAT!!!. Let all of the employees turn him.
Puhdiddle
 
greasespot
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:24 am

AMFA is not to blame....The executive cannot force the members to sign a contract. Remember the terms were going to see 54 percent lose their jobs. So since those 54% were going to lose their job wat would they have gained by voting yes? Unemployment.....I wonder how many here would actually vote to lose their job.....

Oh and in case you did not notice 54 is greater than the ones left. So they controlled the vote.


What should have AMFA done....Disenfranchise the members who were going to be laid off? Then we would be talking bout how unfair AMFA was in their treatment of their poor workers. They were in a lose lose situation no matter what.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 20):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
So things like food, mortgage payments and gasoline are luxuries to you?

I personally have been managing to get buy just fine with Food, Gas, and Mortgage payments. And I also have taken DRASTIC pay cuts at my work as well.

So since you're ok with your pay cut everyone else has to be as well?  sarcastic 

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 25):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
So things like food, mortgage payments and gasoline are luxuries to you?

So, how exactly is the company you work for responsible for the obligations you assumed?

No, but that's an asinine comment on your part since I made no such claim. My point is that the previous poster implies that airline employees are living lives of luxury and excess thanks to their salaries - and that is NOT the case, save for upper management and some very senior pilots.

The vast majority get by paycheck to paycheck; hardly a "luxury lifestyle" as was implied earlier.

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 31):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
Um, yeah, sure they are. Hence why a family of 4 needs 4 times what your average FA or mechanic CURRENTLY makes in many communities?

Hmm...thats interesting....I make less than youre average FA or mechanic and yet I still drive a $40,000 car and own a 4 bedroom house.....Hmmmm.....I wonder how that happens.........

You're in debt up to your eyeballs, perhaps? Because the average flight attendant or mechanic couldn't afford a 4 bedroom house and a $40,000 car at the same time.

Heck, I doubt they could even justify the CAR!

I'll have to invest in waders so I can read the rest of your posts... because it's getting thick...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ahdharia
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 1:21 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39):
So since you're ok with your pay cut everyone else has to be as well?

I never said that I am ok with it. I said I've learned to live with it and manage. I dont have much of a choice...I would rather be employed...unlike AMFA apparently....
 
ahdharia
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 1:21 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39):
You're in debt up to your eyeballs, perhaps?

Nope not really....Bottom line is do you wish to remain employed....AMFA chose not to.....
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
It seems some you think that just because NWA signed a contract with its employees, that it must honor that forever despite all other factors.

Um, that is the point of a contract

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
NWA CANT AFFORD to keep paying the high costs

Northwest should have thought about high costs when they decided to have the oldest average fleet of any US major airline by a mile, keeping inefficient types in their fleet when they were turning profits, fighting money losing wars any time an LCC even opened one route in one of their tertiary markets, etc. Idiotic management decisions, not labor costs, are the problem at Northwest

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
AMFA went on strike because NWA was asking for cuts and wanting to save money, AMFA said no that they dont wanna take cuts and they wont let any of their workers go.

AMFA offered cuts, NW wanted to cut more than half their work force in addition to cutting their wages and benefits to levels that would completely screw up their lives and negotiated in bad faith to get it. AMFA was completely right in what they did

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
Since they went on strike NWA keeps flying STRONG!

Have you ever seen any of SHUPirate1's charts on NW's performance since the strike?

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
After that NWA tried more negotiations, AMFA refused.

If you already know the outcome, why waste everyone's time?

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 31):
I make less than youre average FA or mechanic and yet I still drive a $40,000 car and own a 4 bedroom house...

Ok, so you make less than say $35,000-$40,000 per year and own a car that you spend a year's salary on and own a house that even in the cheapest of communities in this entire country will cost you $200,000? When did you win the lottery?

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 32):
Problem with this is, if and only if the company cannot pay these salaries due to liquidity, then they must be renegotiated. They can be liable all anyone wants, but if there is no company to pay it, then everyone is even more out of luck than they are now.

Northwest CAN pay their salaries, they don't want to because they have this inane pipe dream of a totally outsourced airline.

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 34):
Thats all fine and dandy and makes complete sense. But you seem to be ignoring the important factor. The company needs to have the resources to pay you the same as what the contract states. Certain market conditions have caused NWA to re-evaluate their situation and hence forcing employees to re-evaluate their situations.

Hmm, strange, those market conditions don't seem to have kept Southwest, Alaska, AirTran, America West, Continental and others from thriving

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 34):
Market conditions can affect an entire industry as we have seen with Airlines and many other ones. It is NEITHER NWA or their EMPLOYEES fault, however both must re-evaluate the conditions and make necessary changes. NWA is making necessary changes, however their Employees refuse to make necessary changes. Well someones gotta loose......and the AMFA will....

Again, Northwest has made their own bed, having nothing to do with their employees, by maintaining one of the most inefficient fleets and structures going.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39):
You're in debt up to your eyeballs, perhaps? Because the average flight attendant or mechanic couldn't afford a 4 bedroom house and a $40,000 car at the same time.

Heck, I doubt they could even justify the CAR!

Well, perhaps they could buy the car if they were single...and living in it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
And they wont suffer in a job that pays them barely enough to survive?

They chose that job. If they feel they are underpaid they can look elsewhere. What's that? They don't have any marketable skills outside of the airline industry? Oh well, they made the choice to go into that field.

The job is the employers to do with as they please. The job does not belong to the worker no matter what socialist mumbo jumbo they teach you in France. We don't need a lecture on employment from a country where the homeless go on strike. Brilliant!
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:03 am

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
Now who losses the game??? AMFA......(they had their chances.....)

No, you pendejo. It's not a game. The taxpayers lose because NWA gets to dump their pension obligations on the public purse, stiffs their creditors, drags other airlines down in their toilet, puts the workers out on the street, hires scabs, and you the taxpayer get to foot the bill because you're too damn lazy to think.

If they're flyin' strong it's because guys like you can't think your way out of a paper bag.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 44):
The taxpayers lose because NWA gets to dump their pension obligations on the public purse,

NW isn't going to dump their pensions as the Senate has already approved in theory to include the airlines in the pension reform bill soon to be voted on.

Let's be honest here, it's the top-heavy AMFA union mechs that will the ultimate reason for the loss of all AMFA union jobs at NW and besides fuel is the primary determining factor for the reason NW filed for Ch11 rather than stick with their current cash and re-organize outside of Ch11.

Thanks AMFA - I'm sure glad Christmas is coming up so all of these out of work AMFA mechs standing in the picket lines can all go to the local malls up here in the Twin Cities and find work as Santa Claus because I'm getting sick of driving past them on my way to work when their problems are all because of themselves in the first place. Don't like the current state of affairs in the US airline industry do you? Well buy a Camel and their oil wells or find a new job smartguys!
 
Derik737
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:48 pm

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
AMFA said no that they dont wanna take cuts.

WRONG

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 30):
and they wont let any of their workers go

WRONG AGAIN

If you wanted to tell the truth, you would have said, "AMFA would not agree to Northwest's pay and job cut mandate (which NW would NOT negotiate), but eventually did offer significant pay reduction AND job cuts to NW, (AMFA was negotiating) which fell short of NW's mandate. I believe it was you who stated in a post above that "Negotiating works both ways".

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 45):
Thanks AMFA - I'm sure glad Christmas is coming up so all of these out of work AMFA mechs standing in the picket lines can all go to the local malls up here in the Twin Cities and find work as Santa Claus because I'm getting sick of driving past them on my way to work when their problems are all because of themselves in the first place. Don't like the current state of affairs in the US airline industry do you? Well buy a Camel and their oil wells or find a new job smartguys!

Wow. I imagine Lifeworks offers services to NW employees from day one (or maybe they have taken that benefit away). Perhaps you should check to see if they still are available as you sound like a good candidate for their services.

[Edited 2005-10-26 05:51:59]
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:14 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
Is it just me or does any source entitled the "militant" seem hardly objectionable?

Militant ? Nah. I think its outright "bars in the window crazy." If this were to be true, nullify all the contracts. Force a major cut in pay to all of the employees. If that move doesn't cause the bleeding to stop, when will the shareholders band together and remove him from his position ? What motivation will the employees have to work with management ?
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:22 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 45):
NW isn't going to dump their pensions as the Senate has already approved in theory to include the airlines in the pension reform bill soon to be voted on.

Then I guess you have inside information that NW is just going to fork up the 60 million that they conveniently forgot to pay right before they filed bankruptcy?

Don't kid yourself...those defined benefits are gone forever and for always and you, John and Jane Q Public are going to get to pay for it....the only thing that's worth cheering about is that the level of benefit under PBGC is capped at less than half what a pilot usually gets if they max out....there was some guy in the paper, former NW captain, bitching about how he's only going to get 43K instead of the 95k he was getting before bankruptcy.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 45):
Let's be honest here, it's the top-heavy AMFA union mechs that will the ultimate reason for the loss of all AMFA union jobs at NW and besides fuel is the primary determining factor for the reason NW filed for Ch11 rather than stick with their current cash and re-organize outside of Ch11.

Thanks AMFA - I'm sure glad Christmas is coming up so all of these out of work AMFA mechs standing in the picket lines can all go to the local malls up here in the Twin Cities and find work as Santa Claus because I'm getting sick of driving past them on my way to work when their problems are all because of themselves in the first place. Don't like the current state of affairs in the US airline industry do you? Well buy a Camel and their oil wells or find a new job smartguys!

Nice rant....you're not making sense you know...another glossolalia victim I suppose. If you don't like it don't look...it's their right and it's also none of your business what other people choose to do with their lives.

Fuel was not the primary reason for the bankruptcy...northwest managed to shed most of their high wage structure and pension obligations...fuel will go down again....what precipitated the bankruptcy was the faceoff between AMFA and the airline. Everything suggests that it was in the planning stages far before the price of fuel spiked.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NW To Annul All Union Contracts

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 43):
They chose that job.

Right, they chose that job knowing they would make a certain amount and planning on that.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 43):
The job does not belong to the worker no matter what socialist mumbo jumbo they teach you in France. We don't need a lecture on employment from a country where the homeless go on strike.

It just further invalidates your previous claims when you write something like that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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