iluv747400
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UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:35 am

When other carriers, espcially Delta and Continental, are looking to transatlantic flights to improve their financial standing, United is seeing about an 8% reduction in service, comparing Summer 2005 and Summer 2006.

- JFK-LHR will be reduced from 2 daily 777s to just 1 daily 777. Is it even worth it any more with just one flight?
- As has been mentioned before, SFO-CDG is being scrapped altogether.
- One IAD-LHR will drop from a 777 to a 763.
- IAD-MUC will drop from a 777 to a 763.

Overall they'll drop from 168 to 154 weekly flights.

By comparison, all carriers with a greater market share across the Atlantic will be increasing the number of seats available - some dramatically and some marginally.

Is United shooting itself in the foot? It's hard to imagine that anyone but the most loyal United fliers will be filling its Business and First Class cabins on the JFK-LHR flight when BA offers 10 flights from NYC to LHR everyday, AA offers 6 JFK-LHR flights each day, and Virgin a further 5 NYC-LHR flights per day. Will they at least make some money selling that LHR slot?

[Edited 2005-10-23 22:47:36]
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:44 am

So UA is going to end up giving away slots to non-US carriers at LHR? Or what happens there.

UA no longer deserves to be the anointed LHR carrier beside AA. Let's see US or CO get a shot at it (or both).
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mariner
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:46 am

I think its the most sensible thing I've heard in a while.

The rush to Europe, especially by Delta, is just going to trash yields in the same way yields have been trashed domestically.

United is obviously more concerned with profit.

cheers

mariner
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UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
- JFK-LHR will be reduced from 2 daily 777s to just 1 daily 777. Is it even worth it any more with just one flight?
- As has been mentioned before, SFO-CDG is being scrapped altogether.
- One IAD-LHR will drop from a 777 to a 763.
- IAD-MUC will drop from a 777 to a 763.

HUMMMMM well JFK dosent do well for UA to LHR.

CDG to SFO dosent make money for UA. Most US carriers struggle with west coast CDG flights. Look at AA and SJC CDG.

One IAD LHR flight was a 767 before and was temporarly upgraded while the 767 fleet was moved around. It is going back to its origonal equipment.

IAD MUC was upgraded to a 777 last year when they did not have ORD MUC. Now that that flight is successful they are moving to 767 on both flights. Also LH is moving into the IAD MUC market as well next year.

For future flights look for additional flights to germany and new europen destinations to be announced first quarter of next year.

-m

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gigneil
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
UA no longer deserves to be the anointed LHR carrier beside AA.

What?

United operates an outstanding schedule to LHR from IAD, ORD, LAX, and SFO.

They have basically conceded the JFK fight to AA, but you can't win at every station. I am POSITIVE UA will not be giving up that slot. They will use it on one of these other routes.

Wintertime downsizing of European routes is common and prudent.

N
 
commavia
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
When other carriers, espcially Delta and Continental, are looking to transatlantic flights to improve their financial standing, United is seeing about an 8% reduction in service, comparing Summer 2005 and Summer 2006.

If they think this is fiscally prudent, good for them.

I would refer you here:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-10-21-international-routes_x.htm

All of the astounding growth in Europe in summer 2006 is no doubt going to drive yields down, as more capacity is going to flood the market with new capacity. United may be trying to preserve some yield premium by restraining capacity in the U.S.-Europe markets it serves.

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
Is it even worth it any more with just one flight?

Probably not, which is why I don't give this flight any more than a few years. I would expect that if some form of U.S.-E.U. deal is reached in the near future on a bilateral that opens up LHR, or at least opens the U.S. cities that can be served from LHR, I fully expect UA to shift this slot to LHR-DEN and cut its losses on JFK-LHR.

I know many in the past have said that UA still has a few corporate contracts in New York that fill up F and J on this flight JFK-LHR each night, but I have to wonder how long those contracts are going to stick around now that UA has gone from three daily flights (one morning/two night) to two daily flights (both night) to only a single daily night flight, while BA has maintained its seven daily 747 and 777 flights, and AA has maintained its six daily 777s.

UA is far from attactive in this market, and given the opportunity, I think it would take them all of about two seconds to move this highly valuable LHR slot to DEN, a major UA hub where they would be highly successful.
 
rojo
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
The rush to Europe, especially by Delta, is just going to trash yields in the same way yields have been trashed domestically.

Ok with CDG, but dropping flights from LHR, which is a slot restricted - premium market with less competition thanks to Bermuda II? Don't get it!

They should use the slot to serve another US route like increasing IAD or LAX. Lets see what they do with the slot.
 
LXsaab2000
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
For future flights look for additional flights to germany and new europen destinations to be announced first quarter of next year.

Any rumors about these possible new destionations to Europe?
 
iluv747400
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
Wintertime downsizing of European routes is common and prudent

These changes are for the summer of 2006. None of the other LHR routes is scheduled (right now) to see an increase in service.
 
nosedive
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
I fully expect UA to shift this slot to LHR-DEN and cut its losses on JFK-LHR.

It'd be a LGW-DEN flight. The Bermuda II  would want it that way Wink

EDIT: typo

[Edited 2005-10-23 23:04:14]
 
behramjee
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:59 am

well maybe the B777s which arent going to be seen in EU-LHR this winter would be diverted to the trans-pacific flights for the peak winter + chinese new year seasons.
 
planespotting
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:03 am

I think this sounds like good stuff.

The other airlines seem to be just piling on the overseas routes in hopes that that is the snake oil or cure all that will miraculously bring their airline out of the red and into the black. United realizes that they don't need an extra 1500 seats out of JFK every week when they can just cut the costs of that one flight and move it somewhere where the capacity is needed. Not to mention higher fares and higher load factors with one flight a day instead of two.

United is thinkin, I'm feelin better about their post bankruptcy life.
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Tornado82
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:04 am

What are the plans for these 777's, surely they're not going to let a bird like that waste away.

Are they compatible engine-wise with CO's? (Not looking to start crap, just asking a question which I totally don't know the answer to, so be nice!)
 
dutchjet
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:04 am

Firstly, seasonal cutbacks for the winter season on the north atlantic are very normal and, secondly, its a very very long time until the Summer 2006 schedule is finalized and in place - there probably will be lots of changes and additions in the coming months. Also consider that UA has had some issues with its longhaul fleet and aircraft allocations over the past months, hopefully thats all worked out now, and UA can fine-tune its schedule.

The 777 to 763 adjustments on the IAD-LHR flight and IAD-MUN flights are typical - as pointed out, these segments have typically been operated by the 763. As for SFO-CDG, for whatever reason, UA cannot seem to make this route work and its being dropped - makes total sense. UA's performance on the JFK-LHR route is a bit strange, UA has never been a big player on this most important route and cutting back to one flight per day is probably not the answer either....at one point UA operated 3 or 4 762s on the route (and also flew EWR-LHR) which made a bit more sense and then moved up to higher capacity 763s and 777s and cut frequency. There is a lot of competition on the JFK-LHR route, but UA does not compete aggressively - the JFK-LHR flights are operated primarily for UA's very large corporate customers.......the UA flights out of JFK to LHR very often have gone out with light loads in Y but to capacity in F and J, the pattern is similiar to UA's performance on the transcon services out of JFK. I at one time suggested that UA try the PS757 service on the JFK-LHR route to secure and grow its niche market on the route (catering to business pax) but very few agreed with me; in any case, offering only one flight per day on this type of route is problematic. As for the valuable slot at LHR, its likely that STAR partner LH is "babysitting" the slot (operating a flight in the time periods) until UA determines exactly what it is doing......I would expect (hope) that the second frequency will return for the summer schedule.

While UA, AA and CO have expansion plans for Europe, UA has not been very aggressive - probably because UA simply does not have additional longrange aircraft for new routes and the "757 trick" would not work for UA as its PW powered 757s are lacking in range for most routes. UA is also limited by its European gateway cities - they go head to head with AA at ORD and IAD is simply not as strong as CO's hub at EWR or DL's ATL operation - and IAD is not NYC as far as O/D traffic which helps DL at JFK, CO at EWR and soon AA at JFK if they get their transatlantic expansion underway. Also consider that UA has a vast pacific network to think about (something that the other airlines dont have) and UA should probably place its available resources in re-establishing itself as a leader accross the Pacific.
 
airbazar
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:05 am

They may be reducing flights to Europe, but they have been increasing flights to Asia. Delta for example, doesn't have that luxury. Competition to Europe is getting fierce and it's about to get worse with the anticipated open skies agreement between the EU and US. United seems to be leaving the trans-atlantic market to Lufthansa and concentrationg their resources on the Pacific. It's not a bad plan.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Reply 8):
These changes are for the summer of 2006.

Sorry, I appear to have just looked right over that.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 9):
It'd be a LGW-DEN flight. The Bermuda II 

You need to read the rest of what he said.

N
 
dutchjet
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
What are the plans for these 777's, surely they're not going to let a bird like that waste away.

Are they compatible engine-wise with CO's? (Not looking to start crap, just asking a question which I totally don't know the answer to, so be nice!)

UA will probably re-assign the 777s to routes in the Pacific.

UA flies 777s with PW engines, CO flies 777s with GE engines, so CO would not be interested - UA does not want to dispose of any additional longrange aircraft so its not really an issue.
 
N1120A
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
- JFK-LHR will be reduced from 2 daily 777s to just 1 daily 777. Is it even worth it any more with just one flight?

Sure it is. They still have lucrative corporate contracts out of JFK and use it as an online connecting point. The second flight has usually been more lightly loaded, though that did help me when my LAX-JFK flight had to divert to IAD and was 4 hours late.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
So UA is going to end up giving away slots to non-US carriers at LHR? Or what happens there.

UA no longer deserves to be the anointed LHR carrier beside AA. Let's see US or CO get a shot at it (or both).

"Deserves?" UA is the corporate successor to Pan Am on the route, which means they get LHR (much like AA did with TWA). UA isn't giving the slot away, they are simply moving it around

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
They have basically conceded the JFK fight to AA, but you can't win at every station. I am POSITIVE UA will not be giving up that slot. They will use it on one of these other routes.

LAX-LHR goes out consistantly packed. 2 of the 5 LHR carriers have added flights (AA 1 and BA 1) and still the route is under served. It would actually behoove UA to use the slot on an additional LAX-LHR flight.
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commavia
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
It would actually behoove UA to use the slot on an additional LAX-LHR flight.

UA would not be able to fill a second flight LAX-LHR without wrecking yields. AA is only able to do it because they are much stronger at LHR and are relatively neck-and-neck with UA at LAX. And, even they have to cut the second LAX-LHR during the winter as the yield drop-off is significant.
 
N1120A
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
UA would not be able to fill a second flight LAX-LHR without wrecking yields. AA is only able to do it because they are much stronger at LHR and are relatively neck-and-neck with UA at LAX. And, even they have to cut the second LAX-LHR during the winter as the yield drop-off is significant.

As of now, both AA and BA have kept their second and third flights, respectively on the schedule. In the winter, premium traffic typically goes up, it is Y class yields that go down as tourists don't want to go to Europe when it is cold. As it is, UA's flights go out full and it is hard to find a good fare without connecting.
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commavia
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
As of now, both AA and BA have kept their second and third flights, respectively on the schedule.

Wrong.

American's second flight, AA134/135, end on 28Oct05 and don't come back again until 2Apr05.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
As it is, UA's flights go out full and it is hard to find a good fare without connecting.

Exactly. And that's how United wants to keep it. Adding more seats and more capacity in the nonstop market would pull fares down and provide too much capacity.
 
LHUSA
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Also LH is moving into the IAD MUC market as well next year.

LH already started daily MUC-IAD flights this May. The flights will be reduced to 5-weekly with the onset of the winter schedule in a couple of weeks.
 
jacobin777
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Euro

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:21 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):

- JFK-LHR will be reduced from 2 daily 777s to just 1 daily 777. Is it even worth it any more with just one flight?

I'm saddened to hear its true, as I love seeing UA's 777's landing @ LHR..


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Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
The rush to Europe, especially by Delta, is just going to trash yields in the same way yields have been trashed domestically.

well..I mentioned that already in a previous post..you should be up to date on my posts... Wink

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
- As has been mentioned before, SFO-CDG is being scrapped altogether.

I'm a bit surprised that not even a 767 can do well for UA, with SFO being a large fortress for UA

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
As of now, both AA and BA have kept their second and third flights, respectively on the schedule. In the winter, premium traffic typically goes up, it is Y class yields that go down as tourists don't want to go to Europe when it is cold. As it is, UA's flights go out full and it is hard to find a good fare without connecting.

with AA, this Friday, 29th October is the last 2X/daily for the year, as of Saturday, they are going 1X/daily, and BA's last 3X/daily is this coming Saturday, as of Sunday, October 30, they will go back down to 2X/daily..
"Up the Irons!"
 
N1120A
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
As of now, both AA and BA have kept their second and third flights, respectively on the schedule.

Wrong.

American's second flight, AA134/135, end on 28Oct05 and don't come back again until 2Apr05.

Hence I said AS OF NOW. I looked up today's schedule
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mariner
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
I mentioned that already in a previous post..you should be up to date on my posts.

You're going to have to help me here - I have no idea what your point is.

I don't remember reading a post of yours about yields to Europe, but then - I don't read every post.

And if I did, is it not possible for two people to come to a similar conclusion at the same time?

 confused 

cheers

mariner
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StevenUhl777
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
UA no longer deserves to be the anointed LHR carrier beside AA.

Wait...let me guess...you flew UA once to or from LHR and they lost your bag, right? Is that why you made that stupid comment? Couldn't have been based on anything intelligent... Yeah sure
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jacobin777
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
You're going to have to help me here - I have no idea what your point is.

I don't remember reading a post of yours about yields to Europe, but then - I don't read every post.

And if I did, is it not possible for two people to come to a similar conclusion at the same time?

only being sardonic.... Wink
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SFORunner
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:52 am

LHR is not as strategically important to UA as the other Bermuda II carriers:

1) LHR is important to BA and VS as it is both airlines' home base. Enough said.
2) LHR is important to AA given their partnership with BA and the ability of the latter to provide onward connections into Europe as well as feeds originating from. Given you can not earn AA miles on trans-Atlantic segments flown by BA (?), AA's got to fly their own metal to LHR for the time being.

This leaves UA as odd man out:

1) UA have a tight revenue sharing agreement with LH.
2) Arguably, the Star Alliance network out of FRA is more extensive than the one out of LHR.
3) UA probably makes more money by dumping you onto an LH codeshare as opposed to an SK, BD, etc. one.
4) There is a fair argument to be made that most of the European-based Star Alliance members and BD provide a fair amount of coverage to/from LHR. However, see points 2 and 3.
 
commavia
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 27):
LHR is not as strategically important to UA as the other Bermuda II carriers

Very true. BA and VS have their home base there, and AA has one of its most profitable stations in its entire system there. UA has not appeared nearly as committed in recent years to LHR as AA, much like the situation at LAX.
 
Kahala777
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:24 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
- JFK-LHR will be reduced from 2 daily 777s to just 1 daily 777. Is it even worth it any more with just one flight?
- As has been mentioned before, SFO-CDG is being scrapped altogether.
- One IAD-LHR will drop from a 777 to a 763.
- IAD-MUC will drop from a 777 to a 763.

JFK-LHR is a route that serves to of United Airlines Point to Point International Gateways, not Hubs. It has been rumored for a very long time that JFK was going to loose JFK-LHR service. It is suprising that the route has lasted as long as it has. The long term will not be seeing JFK-LHR for more than another 3-4 years. The aircraft are going to in most case be re-allocated to Pacific high density flying, of which double and triple that of a 777 on a Euro route ex JFK. Do not forget that United Airlines has been basing its LHR operation as of late on partner BD, who has yet to provide they can be a viable London operation.

SFO-CDG, the writing has been on the wall for years with this one. United is going to re-focus all widebodies to international connecting hubs. This includes the dropping of SFO-CDG. Only a handful of United flights connect to Star Alliance flights in the Paris market. Of mention are Lufthansa, Air Dolomiti, Emirates, Austrian, SAS and Swiss. SFO-CDG has over the years only proved to make money for UTA=Air France.

IAD-LHR, is a route as saturated as JFK-LHR. There is to much capacity, and to low of airfares to make IAD-LHR a cost efficient route for the operational cost of a 777.

IAD-MUC, this should not be a suprise to anyone. Munich, historically is dwarfed by the business traffic going to Frankfurt. Munich, is more of a leisure market, than business. As one can derive, Munich, has a high season from April to October, after that things are slow.


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UAcosCS
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
UA no longer deserves to be the anointed LHR carrier beside AA. Let's see US or CO get a shot at it (or both).

Says you? Please.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
They have basically conceded the JFK fight to AA, but you can't win at every station.

No you cant win in every region either, so i guess we'll just continue to dominate the Pacific where the money is, and AA looking in from the outside.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 9):
It'd be a LGW-DEN flight. The Bermuda II would want it that way

And BA.
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UALAX
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
For future flights look for additional flights to germany and new europen destinations to be announced first quarter of next year.

Any chance of LAX-FRA? Would love to see E+ on this route!

UALAX
 
Kahala777
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting UALAX (Reply 31):
Any chance of LAX-FRA? Would love to see E+ on this route!

Not for the near future. Look no further than the fact that the following flights are operated to Germany:

Los Angeles-Dusseldorf
LTU
A330

Los Angeles-Frankfurt
Air India
747-400, 777-200
Lufthansa
747-400

Los Angeles-Munich
Lufthansa
A340-300

At current their is not much more of a demand for Los Angeles to gain more service to Germany ala United Airlines.

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UA772IAD
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:44 pm

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
IAD-MUC will drop from a 777 to a 763.

UA currently operates a morning flight (UA922) with a 763. The early evening flight, UA918 was upgraded to a 744 about a year or so ago, and continues to remain so. The last flight UA920 is operated by a 777. So there will be a slight change, but UA918 takes a bulk of the load due to it's ideal departure-arrival time.

Interestingly, flight 918 has recently been operated by a 777. Is that yield related, or simple aircraft positioning?

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
- As has been mentioned before, SFO-CDG is being scrapped altogether.

Yes, because this premium market is extremely difficult for just about any airline (except for AF, of course). It makes sense.

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
IAD-MUC will drop from a 777 to a 763.

That flight was traditionally operated by a 763. Obviously yields are higher in the summer, the ORD flight is helping alleviate the demands, as is the start of LH's IAD-MUC service.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
I'm a bit surprised that not even a 767 can do well for UA, with SFO being a large fortress for UA

Me too, but there isn't really a market for it. Business wise, and tourism wise.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
UA will probably re-assign the 777s to routes in the Pacific.

Either that or place them in the soon to be much needed domestic service, since most UA777s serving Europe are not ER rated for long-haul flights. Since domestic travel within the US is heaviest between Thanksgiving and Early Spring ("spring break" time), these 777s will be needed to fly between the hubs.
Once people begin to go abroad again, in Spring, they will return to their old routes, and many of the upgraded domestic flights will return to 757s and 320 service.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 29):
IAD-LHR, is a route as saturated as JFK-LHR. There is to much capacity, and to low of airfares to make IAD-LHR a cost efficient route for the operational cost of a 777.

I don't know if I agree. IAD-LHR is a very strong market, yet only UA and BA offer flights (3 daily UA, 2 daily BA). I certainly don't think it compares the number of carriers/flights out of New York. However, I do think that the winter months restricts the market to mainly business travelers.
 
bjornstrom
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:46 pm

UA is a leading member of * with lots of european partner (and NZ + SQ !) airlines feeding their network from major european airports such as LHR, MAN, FRA, MUC, ZRH, CPH, ARN, LIS, ASW and more.

I would presume that many choose their native carrier on the atlantic hop and switch to UA in ORD or EWR - hopefully they can make good business on that. I have flown SK, LH and SQ to different airports in the states and always used UA for domestic travelling (I love those A321 with cockpit radio!).

My point is that cooperation might be the way here - be #1 where you are strong and don't get into business that you can't dominate.

[Edited 2005-10-24 06:51:06]
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N1120A
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting UALAX (Reply 31):
Any chance of LAX-FRA? Would love to see E+ on this route!

UA used to operate the route but they handed it over to Lufthansa and codeshare on their flights

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 32):
At current their is not much more of a demand for Los Angeles to gain more service to Germany ala United Airlines.

LAX-FRA is one of the highest load transatlantic routes out there.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
iluv747400
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:42 pm

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 33):
IAD-LHR is a very strong market, yet only UA and BA offer flights

Virgin Atlantic also offers one daily flight.
 
airxliban
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:25 pm

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 9):
It'd be a LGW-DEN flight. The Bermuda II would want it that way

Even though we've established that that isn't happening, wouldn't BA have to start flying to DEN out of LGW as well if that were the case? Or would they have to do that only if Virgin decided to open Denver?

Does anyone have the link to the explanation that B747-437B wrote about Bermuda II?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
halls120
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:33 pm

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 33):
UA currently operates a morning flight (UA922) with a 763. The early evening flight, UA918 was upgraded to a 744 about a year or so ago, and continues to remain so. The last flight UA920 is operated by a 777.

I travel to London several times a year, and absolutely love the morning departure from IAD. I hope UA is making money on that flight, because I'd hate to see it disappear.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
eha
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
- As has been mentioned before, SFO-CDG is being scrapped altogether.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):

I'm a bit surprised that not even a 767 can do well for UA, with SFO being a large fortress for UA



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 33):
.
Yes, because this premium market is extremely difficult for just about any airline (except for AF, of course). It makes sense.

It took them a while to realize that CDG destination wasn't profitable out of SFO, then. I flew this flight back in '93, on a 767. packed (summer vacation).
So it's been around for a while, unless it has been discontinued in the mean time.

E.
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:05 am

If BA operates LHR-DEN then why can't UA? I've always wondered this but never been bothered to ask before, until now ...
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
commavia
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 40):
If BA operates LHR-DEN then why can't UA?

Bermuda II.

BA is able to operate on routes like LHR-DEN, LHR-ATL, etc., even while their U.S. counterparts cannot, because of the terms of the agreement.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 41):
BA is able to operate on routes like LHR-DEN, LHR-ATL, etc., even while their U.S. counterparts cannot, because of the terms of the agreement.

What I want to know is why our government agreed to something as bogus as that...they effectively destroyed any chance of our own airlines to compete on said routes. I'm sure we probably got something out of it, does anyone know what it is?
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 41):
Bermuda II.

Yes.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 41):
BA is able to operate on routes like LHR-DEN, LHR-ATL, etc., even while their U.S. counterparts cannot, because of the terms of the agreement.

Oh. I thought that BA could only fly from LHR to DEN because United doesn't - that if United started service from Denver to London it would have to be to LGW and BA would have to switch back to LGW as well.

I could be very wrong. Bermuda II is a bit of a fog to me.

cheers

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Stitch
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:26 am

As noted, winter is a slack time for European leisure travel, so UA historically swaps out 772s and 744s for 763s so the larger planes can handle the heavier Asian traffic during this time.

UA operates JFK-LHR and JFK-NRT because it's NYC and you "have" to have a presence there. And they have enough contracts to make a single flight profitable. AA has a large connecting presence in JFK which UA doesn't.

UA and LH share all their transatlantic revenue, so it is in UA's interests to serve FRA (and to a lesser extent, MUC) and then let LH handle the intra-European and African traffic. Same with LH sending everyone over from FRA/MUC and connecting to UA for intra-North America.

SFO-CDG went out packed in Economy (mostly at excursion fares) and light in First and Business. So the flight was not a very effective use of a 763, and would have been a waste of a 772 or 744 since you'd just be filling it with more base fares.

UA inherited SEA-LHR from PanAm and they could conceivably bring it back in the form of DEN-SEA-LHR-SEA-DEN. SEA's O&D traffic is not enough, but adding traffic from DEN to connect to both SEA-LHR and the existing SEA-NRT flight might be able to fill a 777 which could then continue on/return from LHR and NRT. BA currently operates a single SEA-LHR 744 a day and I have heard that SK apparently enjoys almost record yields on their daily A343 SEA-CPH. LH also intended to operate SEA-FRA before PDX offered sweeter incentives to land the route.
 
jacobin777
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting Eha (Reply 39):
It took them a while to realize that CDG destination wasn't profitable out of SFO, then. I flew this flight back in '93, on a 767. packed (summer vacation).
So it's been around for a while, unless it has been discontinued in the mean time.

which makes it all the reason a shame that UA can't make that route profitable....they've been flying that route for a long time, yet don't have the ciritical mass to make it profitable..

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):

SFO-CDG went out packed in Economy (mostly at excursion fares) and light in First and Business. So the flight was not a very effective use of a 763, and would have been a waste of a 772 or 744 since you'd just be filling it with more base fares.

maybe its time to bring in the 787... biggrin 

Quoting Commavia (Reply 41):
Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 40):
If BA operates LHR-DEN then why can't UA?

Bermuda II.

BA is able to operate on routes like LHR-DEN, LHR-ATL, etc., even while their U.S. counterparts cannot, because of the terms of the agreement.

thats very interesting..I would have thought Bermuda II would have allowed "cross-competition"...hey.its great for BA I guess!
"Up the Irons!"
 
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chrisnh
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Thread starter):
Is United shooting itself in the foot?

Or somewhere.

International flying, in my own opinion, isn't something carriers should turn on and off like a light switch. You want to build visibility and a reputation. Sure, cut Chicago-Omaha or Chicago-Dallas; you can always bring those routes back. But when you cut key transatlantic route you breed a sense of 'Are they serious about international flying or not?' Travel planners can count on airlines like BA for their Heathrow schedules and will gravitate there if UA is being a bit wishy-washy about their plans to Europe.
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:17 am

I have flown UA maybe 20 or 30 times since 1998 between LHR and New York.

In that time Ive seen the 763's to EWR packed out.
763's to JFK packed out.

A few years back they moved out of EWR and introduced 777's on LHR - JFK increasing the number of seats.

Since 2004 Ive never seen the JFK-LHR flight full ever, not in June not in January nor July and wondered what would happen ?

Less than a month ago i flew LHR-JFK-NRT-SIN-HKG-NRT-JRK-LHR on business.

All the asia flights for UA were sold out, not a seat to be had.
The outward and return LHR-JFK flights had maybe 100 people at most.


To me UA could cull a JFK-LHR easily, and even maybe reduce that 777 to a 763 as well.

Looking at UA's JFK operation, to be honest I think UA should can JFK and concentrate on EWR for it's internationals (and LAX/SFO) and just stick regional jets from there other hubs to JFK.

At the end of the day there's 25 flights from LHR to New York... thats too much. The only reason this survives is the LHR Hub for airlines to the US. With Continental and Delta opening up the UK, the LHR Hub for BA will be threatened considerably, but not affect UA that much.
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FA4UA
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:20 am

I'm surprised nobody has really mentioned this... UA operating JFK-LHR is not just to compliment our network as UA, but to enhance the Star Alliance. We code share on that route with a number of carriers and are perhaps the only Star player to operate this vital link between two Finance capitals of the world.

Just look at NGO-TPE and you'll see the same thing. We're the only Star Alliance Carrier to operate this route and it's a vital bridge between these to economic powerhouses.

The cynic in me thinks that we're reducing capacity because we're starting to focus on yields instead of marketshare... which is the only way to make money.

The dreamer in me thinks all our reduction in capacity won't matter when CO and UA merge... JUST A HYPOTHETICAL (and completely my own opinion)

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
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mariner
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RE: UA Bucking The Trend: Reducing Flights To Europe

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 49):
The cynic in me thinks that we're reducing capacity because we're starting to focus on yields instead of marketshare.

Why is that cynical? As I indicated in reply #2, it is the best thing.

If United has actually abandoned the market share concept in favor of yield then it puts them way ahead of the legacy pack.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta

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