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PanAm_DC10
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PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:16 pm

To update on PAL's plans;

They have decided to go all Airbus for their narrowbody fleet by 2009 and expect to make a decision to acquire 6 A340s or B777s early next year.

Oct. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Philippine Airlines Inc., the Southeast Asian nation's biggest carrier, said it plans to acquire six new wide-body airplanes by 2009 and will choose either Airbus SAS A340s or Boeing Co. 777s.
The airline will decide on the model by early next year, President Jaime Bautista said in an interview today. The company is switching to only Airbus planes for its narrow-body aircraft, he said.


Interesting given they still have 4 deferred B744 PAX models on order. I doubt they can afford to lose the deposits so perhaps Airbus for narrowbody fleet and Boeing for Long Haul. May be hard though given they already operate Airbus widebodies. Will be interesting to see the outcome of this RFP.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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whitehatter
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:48 pm

Tough one to call as it depends on financing.

PAL have had problems in the past with funding aircraft acquisitions so it depends on who will want to do a deal with them or how they propose to finance an order. If they have some cash with Boeing then there might be mileage in converting 744 options to 772ER or 773ER orders if they think the 744 is too big for them.

Bottom line on the deal is that PR has had major money troubles and it won't be an easy deal to put together.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
airlineaddict
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:48 pm

B777s? Wow! I would lean more towards a negotiating ploy with Airbus rather than seriously considering B777s. However, the 777-300ER would economically provide tremendous lift capabilities that are lacking on current A340-300 routes (namely MNL-YVR-LAS).

With that being said, the A340-600/A340-500s would give commonality with the A340s and A330s which cannot be downplayed.

Knowing PR, the current A340s are too young to be replaced. Therefore, they will probably be kept to develop new routes (i.e., Europe).

I hope PR is making enough money to support the new planes.
 
KL808
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:53 pm

As far as I know the remaining 4 B744 are still there but will probably never be taken up.

The deposits for those are probably long gone.

Delivery by the way of those widebodies will DEFINITELY start on or after 2009, because that's when PR will get out of its rehabilitation.

Expect an order for more A340's.

Drew
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Thorben
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:57 pm

This news was posted in another thread, before. I also read an article where they said that PR wants to have an all Airbus fleet by 2009.

So I expect them to buy A346s, maybe the HGW version. Perhaps even two or three A388. Would be great to see that.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Lumberton
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:59 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 1):
Tough one to call as it depends on financing.

Sorry to disagree with you, but as I noted on another thread, I believe that this announcement is merely a ploy to get a bid from Boeing in order to try to "lowball" Airbus. PR is firmly wedded to Airbus and they have announced their intentions to be an all Airbus airline by 2009 (this was on another thread, too). I must ask (rhetorically), "Why would Boeing even bother to bid"? Didn't Scott Carson say that they wouldn't do "silly deals". In any negotiation, one's success is usually determined by one's bargaining position. If you bargain from a position of strength, i.e., "walk-away power", you can usually drive a better deal. I just don't see PR having this walk away power with Airbus, unless Boeing deludes themselves into thinking they actually have a chance on this one. This is one deal where the seller--most likely Airbus--will be in a very strong position to dictate the terms.

My two cents. Fire away....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PlaneDane
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 1):
Tough one to call as it depends on financing.

Sorry to disagree with you, but as I noted on another thread, I believe that this announcement is merely a ploy to get a bid from Boeing in order to try to "lowball" Airbus. PR is firmly wedded to Airbus and they have announced their intentions to be an all Airbus airline by 2009 (this was on another thread, too). I must ask (rhetorically), "Why would Boeing even bother to bid"? Didn't Scott Carson say that they wouldn't do "silly deals". In any negotiation, one's success is usually determined by one's bargaining position. If you bargain from a position of strength, i.e., "walk-away power", you can usually drive a better deal. I just don't see PR having this walk away power with Airbus, unless Boeing deludes themselves into thinking they actually have a chance on this one. This is one deal where the seller--most likely Airbus--will be in a very strong position to dictate the terms.

My two cents. Fire away....

First, I totally agree with you, Lumberton.

However, an aircraft manufacturer can consider a loss to be a victory in certain cases. Through bidding down so low in price as to force Airbus to sell their aircraft at a loss, Boeing could still consider the sales campaign somewhat of a victory.

An example of this happening might be the Easyjet order from not so long ago. Airbus could do the same to a Boeing sale too, conceivably.
 
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scbriml
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 6):
However, an aircraft manufacturer can consider a loss to be a victory in certain cases. Through bidding down so low in price as to force Airbus to sell their aircraft at a loss, Boeing could still consider the sales campaign somewhat of a victory.

An example of this happening might be the Easyjet order from not so long ago. Airbus could do the same to a Boeing sale too, conceivably.

A somewhat common belief here on a.net. If anyone can produce any evidence to support that either Airbus or Boeing has ever sold planes at a loss, I'd love to see it.

Boeing may well have been "raped" by FR, but I bet they still didn't sell at a loss.
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
A somewhat common belief here on a.net. If anyone can produce any evidence to support that either Airbus or Boeing has ever sold planes at a loss, I'd love to see it.

I believe JetBlue's CEO claimed that when they bought their initial A320s, they got them at below market value. It was widely perceived that he implied JetBlue bought them at loss-type prices, from Airbus. Since I doubt anyone here on a.net, nor anywhere else can produce the actual sales invoices, I doubt the evidence can be produced.
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airlineaddict
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:28 am

I must have missed the article regarding the all-Airbus fleet, can someone post a link? In any event, I doubt PR would replace the 744 with a A346HGW. It would likely be the A380 for the routes to SFO and LAX.

Here's something that's probably nonsense but fun to speculate about... any chance PR would change its deferred 744s to 747 Advanced?
 
jacobin777
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 8):
Since I doubt anyone here on a.net, nor anywhere else can produce the actual sales invoices, I doubt the evidence can be produced.

looking at B6's reporting statements, it doesn't seem as if they bought the A320's at a loss..maybe, just maybe the first few..but thats stretching it too..

they have been paying roughly between $32-$35 million per plane...

I've discussed this topic somewhere else, but I'm too lazy to find it..
"Up the Irons!"
 
FCKC
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:51 am

A380s as Thorben mentionned above is not unreasonnable , as the CEO of PR ,already said he is interested in it.But..........with PAL all is a question of money.How can you afford new planes , when you are short of money ?

I heard somewhere they have ordered A319s.Can someone confirm that.Thanks.
 
whitehatter
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
Sorry to disagree with you, but as I noted on another thread, I believe that this announcement is merely a ploy to get a bid from Boeing in order to try to "lowball" Airbus.

Your POV and mine are not mutually exclusive.

They may be trying to open a bidding war for aircraft but it's the financing which will be the stumbling block, getting a struggling carrier past any hurdles the banks and lessors might put up is going to be harder than merely quoting a price and discount.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
leamside
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:18 am

FCKC,

Lease agreements for 2 PAL A-319s arriving in 2006 can be found in the 4th paragraph of:

http://money.inq7.net/topstories/vie....php?yyyy=2005&mon=10&dd=21&file=6
 
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Stitch
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:30 am

FR got almost half-off for each plane, but I have to believe Boeing still made a profit on each one and considering the size of the deal, the volume alone was probably a nice boost to the balance sheets.

I do not believe B6 received sub-cost pricing, but instead Airbus back-loaded the leases so the first few years were very cheap and then the rates sharply increase over time.

If this is true, too bad for B6 fuel prices are at historical highs just as their lease rates start to climb precipitously.
 
Thorben
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Airlineaddict (Reply 9):
I must have missed the article regarding the all-Airbus fleet, can someone post a link?

http://money.inq7.net/topstories/vie....php?yyyy=2005&mon=10&dd=21&file=6

Seventh paragraph.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Scorpio
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
Seventh paragraph.

I think that was about the narrowbody fleet. PAL has not said the long-haul feet will be all-Airbus.
 
Lumberton
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 16):
PAL has not said the long-haul feet will be all-Airbus

Scorpio, that's not the way I'm reading this:

Quote:

PAL, which at present has 30 planes for domestic and overseas operations, including six Airbuses, plans to have an all-Airbus fleet by the end of 2009.
Bautista said having uniform aircraft would be more efficient and would give the company some savings.

I think that the above quotes, taken in context with the entire article, point to PAL's goal of having an all Airbus fleet.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 12):
Your POV and mine are not mutually exclusive

Point taken. Agree that the financing on this deal is the long pole in this here tent.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Thorben
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 17):
Quote:

PAL, which at present has 30 planes for domestic and overseas operations, including six Airbuses, plans to have an all-Airbus fleet by the end of 2009.
Bautista said having uniform aircraft would be more efficient and would give the company some savings.

I think that the above quotes, taken in context with the entire article, point to PAL's goal of having an all Airbus fleet.

I read it that the whole PAL (PR) is supposed to be all Airbus. The strange part in that sentence is that they say PR has only six currently, should be a lot more.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
JetMaster
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
If this is true, too bad for B6 fuel prices are at historical highs just as their lease rates start to climb precipitously.

But still better than high lease rates from the beginning...B6 is still better off than most rivals.


Regards,
JM
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Lumberton
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
The strange part in that sentence is that they say PR has only six currently, should be a lot more.

They fly 18 Airbus currently: 4 A340s, 8 A330s, and 6 A320s.

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Philippine%20Airlines-fleet.htm

Getting more A340's for the long haul would appear to make good sense, for a lot of reasons that have been brought up on another thread. Also, there is a maintanence facility at NAIA that is currently maintaining Airbus WB's.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
behramjee
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:32 am

Firstly I have noticed that PR has quite a few number of First class seats on its long haul aircraft.

Is there actually "revenue demand" for PR's F class seats?

PRs B 744s are all built between 1993-96 so theyre pretty ok for the time being and can last on easily till 2010.

Since they already have a large Airbus widebody fleet of A 333s + A 343s, I would recommend them replacing their B 744s with A 346s in a 2 class layout thus having a luxurious J class product.

There is absolutely no need for PR to get A 380s.
 
FCKC
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:34 am

Referring to the link that Leamside sent above , it is very clear that PAL will be an all Airbus operator in 2009.
That means the end of the 747-400 at PAL , and probably (just my though) the purchase of some A380s and A340-600s.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:46 am

As many people already stated, deals like this usually include many variables. I guess neither B nor A give aircraft away for free. But sometimes it is a good idea to give them away for free, just to get money another way.

Look at mobile phone contracts. In Germany you used to get them pretty cheap, sometimes this is still done. Sometimes you got a cell phone for 0€, but you had to sign a contract with a phone company for 2 years. This had a monthly fee of 15€ that did not include SMS or speaking. So you, in fact, already paid 360€ for the phone even though you did not notice that.

Maybe A really gave away some Airliners very cheap, but maybe they charged higher fees for spare parts (speculation, I don't know that!). There are many scenarios about this, but one thing is for sure. Airliners are not thrown away after 5 years, so the spare part aftermarket is extremely lucrative as well. These deals are extremely complex, as nobody just goes to a bank and gets 40mio USD. Financing is complex, service is complex (nobody accepts an airliner that cannot fly due to faulty wirings), and other issues like crew training and so on are also very important.
 
agill
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 23):

Look at mobile phone contracts. In Germany you used to get them pretty cheap, sometimes this is still done. Sometimes you got a cell phone for 0€, but you had to sign a contract with a phone company for 2 years. This had a monthly fee of 15€ that did not include SMS or speaking. So you, in fact, already paid 360€ for the phone even though you did not notice that.

THey can give away the planes for free and then make money by letting the airlines download customized engine sounds and stuff like that. Great idea actually  Smile
 
norcal
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Agill (Reply 24):
THey can give away the planes for free and then make money by letting the airlines download customized engine sounds and stuff like that. Great idea actually

Or how about give them the airplane for free with a certain number of free flight hours that they get each month......and then slam them with extra charges when they go over these flight hours. Oh yeah they can only use their free flight hours after 7pm on week nights and weekends. Roaming and off network flights will face enormous fees. Minimum 2 year contractual agreement with activation fees and early termination fees.
 
redneckslim
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:28 am

Corruption and gross mismanagement rule at PAL. No other flag carrier has suffered the indignity of having the U.S. Marshals seize a 747-400 on live T.V. Also, the entire airline had to park and shut down a few years ago, and allow other nations to come in and take over the task of supplying air travel to the country until the mess was untangled. Just like the banana republic it represents, things only get worse for PAL. I lived there for 22 years, I know the deal. Boeing will never play the games PAL is asking for, Airbus will. Financing for this airline is always a big question mark, the money has a strange way of disappearing into the hands of the fat cats in Manila. From the pilots on down, the fine and dedicated crews at PAL have had to work for wages that other professionals laugh at. Anyone who flies PR-102-105 can see the always packed planes, staggering under the extra weight of those overstuffed 70 Lb. Boxes heading to the family. Getting some new planes is a Godsend for the people and pax of PAL, Getting new ownership and clean management would really be nice.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 25):

As long as they don't advertise on MTV, I don't care. But if they do, I would personally revoke the manfacturing license for Airbus!
 
Boogyjay
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 23):
Maybe A really gave away some Airliners very cheap, but maybe they charged higher fees for spare parts (speculation, I don't know that!).

You have a point here.

To remain in the aeronautic industry:
When I worked for SNECMA, spare parts were a big part of their business and it was very profitable for them.

They were happily extending their services, the warehouses, etc... It was THE objective. SNECMA Services was growing faster than the main company, it was a premium priority.

Note: It was only 2 years ago.
 
dalecary
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:21 am

I have a sneaking suspicion the 773ER has a far greater chance for this order than a lot of other posters believe. I don't think it's that clear cut at all that PR will be all Airbus and a likely scenario is that the paid deposits on the 4 744s on order will be transferred to another Boeing WB type.
 
whitehatter
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 25):

Or how about give them the airplane for free with a certain number of free flight hours that they get each month......and then slam them with extra charges when they go over these flight hours.

Been done already!

Laker bought their first two DC-10 aircraft on a pay-as-you-fly deal from the banks left holding them after the All Nippon bribe scandal.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
airlineaddict
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
The strange part in that sentence is that they say PR has only six currently, should be a lot more.

They fly 18 Airbus currently: 4 A340s, 8 A330s, and 6 A320s.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 17):
Quote:

PAL, which at present has 30 planes for domestic and overseas operations, including six Airbuses, plans to have an all-Airbus fleet by the end of 2009.
Bautista said having uniform aircraft would be more efficient and would give the company some savings.

I think that the above quotes, taken in context with the entire article, point to PAL's goal of having an all Airbus fleet.

Somewhere there is an error in the article, either there's a missing reference to SIX A320s which was the main point of the article or there's a wrong reference to the number of total Airbus aircraft. At the end of the day, it goes back to non-aviation journalists having incomplete or inaccurate stories. I would find it hard to believe that PR would publicly state that they want an all-Airbus fleet by 2009 only to request a bid for 777s. PR may be mismanaged but I doubt the company president is that foolish.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 21):
Is there actually "revenue demand" for PR's F class seats?

It's usually filled with government officials or Filipino movie stars which nowadays could also be government officials who were movie stars. Yuck!

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 21):
There is absolutely no need for PR to get A 380s.

With 9 weekly flights to LAX and 8 weekly flights to SFO an A380 would help eliminate the need for the occasional twice daily flights and free up the A340-300s for flights elsewhere.
 
Lumberton
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 31):
I would find it hard to believe that PR would publicly state that they want an all-Airbus fleet by 2009 only to request a bid for 777s. PR may be mismanaged but I doubt the company president is that foolish.

Exactly! This also came up on another thread. However, it's now out in the public domain. How do they do "damage control" if they are serious about 777's?

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 31):
It's usually filled with government officials or Filipino movie stars which nowadays could also be government officials who were movie stars. Yuck!

Rev or non-rev?  pessimist 
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
KL808
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 21):
Since they already have a large Airbus widebody fleet of A 333s + A 343s, I would recommend them replacing their B 744s with A 346s in a 2 class layout thus having a luxurious J class product.

I totally agree with you. PR should go towards a 2 class layout on all its aircraft.

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 29):
I have a sneaking suspicion the 773ER has a far greater chance for this order than a lot of other posters believe. I don't think it's that clear cut at all that PR will be all Airbus and a likely scenario is that the paid deposits on the 4 744s on order will be transferred to another Boeing WB type.

Though the B773ER has GE engines which is the current engine of choice of PR, I highly doubt they will pay top dollar for the B773ER. The A346 will still give them commonality with the rest of the fleet though with RR engines. Does PR want to send twins across the pacific? I dont think so. They have the same mentality with CX. Those 4 B744 deposits have long gone. The deposits have been there for close to 10 years. Those where ordered prior to PR's downfall and I bet top dollar that in order for PR to take delivery, they might as well start over with new negotiations, because the money is all gone for those deposits.

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 31):
Somewhere there is an error in the article, either there's a missing reference to SIX A320s which was the main point of the article or there's a wrong reference to the number of total Airbus aircraft.

The SIX airbuses that they are talking about in the article is the CURRENT A320's in PR's fleet.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
dalecary
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 33):
Though the B773ER has GE engines which is the current engine of choice of PR, I highly doubt they will pay top dollar for the B773ER. The A346 will still give them commonality with the rest of the fleet though with RR engines. Does PR want to send twins across the pacific? I dont think so. They have the same mentality with CX. Those 4 B744 deposits have long gone. The deposits have been there for close to 10 years. Those where ordered prior to PR's downfall and I bet top dollar that in order for PR to take delivery, they might as well start over with new negotiations, because the money is all gone for those deposits.

Who is to say they will have to pay top dollar for 773ERs??? The new aggressive Boeing are discounting very aggressively. I don't believe the money for the 744 deposits has gone. It is still very much in the mix and could well be a very big factor here.
I have no idea about PR's attitude to twins and ETOPS. If what you say is true, then they could retain 744s for US flights and utilise 773ERs on regional/European services.
I contend Boeing is very much a player for this order.
 
KL808
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 34):
Who is to say they will have to pay top dollar for 773ERs???

Well its no secret that Boeing has been selling them pretty well this year, so whats to expect them to match Airbuses offer on the A346.

Like I said on the other thread it will come down to PRICE and only PRICE.

The A346 has a lower price than the B773ER.

I do agree however, that they should keep the B744 for another couple of years at least till 2012.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
dalecary
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:06 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 35):
Well its no secret that Boeing has been selling them pretty well this year, so whats to expect them to match Airbuses offer on the A346.

Like I said on the other thread it will come down to PRICE and only PRICE.

The A346 has a lower price than the B773ER.

And the Boeing price could well be less, if the 744 deposits are taken into account. It could also be well argued that the 773ER would be a cheaper aircraft to operate over time than the 346. AFAIK there is no evidence to support your assertion that the money PR paid for the 744 deposits has "gone". In contrast, I think Boeing will do everything they can to convert this deposit money into a firm order. I still see this order as very, very competitive and not as one-sided as many here assume.
 
sq212
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:21 am

PR current plan is to replace all single aisle aircraft with all Airbus second hand A320's. A319 will go to Air Philippines. Hard to tell whether the owner will go for brand new one. A340 and B777 is a toss up. Although Airbus has the advantage in price and financing terms as well as maintenance. A380 acquisition is possible, but needs cooperation with government authoirties (runaway expansion) to make it happen.

Cheers
 
Kahala777
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
They have decided to go all Airbus for their narrowbody fleet by 2009 and expect to make a decision to acquire 6 A340s or B777s early next year

In most cases PR long term fleet will look like:

A320
A330-300, A330-200
A340-300, A340-600

PR has much to much invested in simplifying its fleet. The only way that I could see PR going Boeing, is if notoriously expensive Boeing offered some kind of a sweetheart deal.

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 2):
Knowing PR, the current A340s are too young to be replaced. Therefore, they will probably be kept to develop new routes (i.e., Europe).

The A340 is the backbone of the PR fleet. Odds are in the favor of San Francisco and Los Angeles, both going twice daily with the A340. The soul purpose of the 747-400 is the SFO, LAX flights. In most cases, the PR 744 will be phased from the fleet, especially now in a time of oil price surges.

Look for New York, and Chicago to be added in North America over the next 5-7 years. It was said a few weeks back that LAS is doing more than well. Look for Las Vegas, to possibly upgrade to a daily A340 service again via Vancouver.

JFK would in most scenarios be operated as a MNL-NRT-JFK, or MNL-SEL-JFK type service. There has also been talk of a MNL-ORD-JFK, however that would only come into play if PR could get equipment for a flight of that range.

KAHALA777
 
VS772LR
Posts: 63
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 38):
The A340 is the backbone of the PR fleet. Odds are in the favor of San Francisco and Los Angeles, both going twice daily with the A340. The soul purpose of the 747-400 is the SFO, LAX flights. In most cases, the PR 744 will be phased from the fleet, especially now in a time of oil price surges.

Couln't agree more. As with all of the other 777 fans, of course we would like to see one in Philippines colors. Reality is we would be seeing the A346 which would be ideal for them. It would also be nice to see an A380. As others have said, they probably can't afford one but can they fill one? They send 744s to SFO and LAX. I think it's possible. We'll just have to wait and see.  crossfingers 


-VS772LR
So what if Virgin's motto is Four Engines for Long Haul!
 
trex8
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 28):
To remain in the aeronautic industry:
When I worked for SNECMA, spare parts were a big part of their business and it was very profitable for them.

if you want to talk about cut priced marketing, some of GE's competitors would consider their pricing for engines predatory and they are clearly planning on making money on the spares and not on the initial equipment sale.

list prices mean nothing when finance charges in the long run could cost the airline far more. heavy discounting is the norm , we know A has sold A330s at half list price (NW, CI) and B has sold 744ERs to QF for a pittance.
 
behramjee
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:26 pm

I find it astounding that PR doesnt serve DXB when there is so much money to be made by them in that market. A daily A 333 nonstop can easily be filled up from DXB. Instead of codesharing with EK and let it take a lot of its EU and Gulf bound pax via DXB, they should apart from RUH be flying to DXB too!!!

Contary to what ppl say a double daily A 340 operation to LAX is anyday better than sending a daily A 380 as with the dbl daily operation, the connection chances via MNL to most PR online Asian/Aussie destinations are much higher and plus the extra flights are more attractive to the high yield pax in premium class.

A daily A 343 + daily A 346 to LAX and SFO from MNL would be just fine!!! Am surprised yet at the same time very pleased to hear that LAS is doing well for them.
 
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sammyk
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:41 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 33):
Those 4 B744 deposits have long gone.

Gone? Gone where?
 
Lumberton
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:32 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 37):
but needs cooperation with government authoirties (runaway expansion) to make it happen.

Good point. If expansion is required (is it?), they could always divert the A380 flights to the former Clark AB in Pampanga. However, that's a long commute to Manila. The only other alternative is, as you pointed out, to expand NAIA and that is going to be tough, given the encroachment in the area around the airport.

[Edited 2005-10-25 12:41:59]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Shenzhen
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:20 pm

My guess is that this is Airbus' order to lose. Boeing will provide a proposal, like they would to any airline. Will they offer 40 percent off list, in the current sellers market, to an airline that is predominately Airbus, for 6 frames.... doubtful.

PAL will get a basic proposal, maybe 20 percent off, plus the few million that were put down as a deposit for the 747s.

The secret to this order is who gives the largest credit memo, which can then be cashed in after delivery (but probably never make it back to PAL, the company).

Cheers
 
dforce1
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:39 am

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 37):
A319 will go to Air Philippines.

I'm still not understanding the whole nature of the Air Philippines-PAL relationship. Why would PAL be giving A319's to Air Philippines? Is Air Philippines not a competitor of PAL?
 
A342
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 37):
A380 acquisition is possible, but needs cooperation with government authoirties (runaway expansion) to make it happen.

MNL´s 3737x60 meter runway is enough for the A380 if there are shoulders 7,50 meters wide on each side. However, taxiways and terminals are another issue.
Will EK send the A380 to MNL ? How is it served to date by EK ?

Btw, LHT Manila can now also sevice A320s, reported by Aerointernational. A LH aircaft has been flown there for a IL2 check (done every 15 years), new paint and a new landing gear.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
Will EK send the A380 to MNL ? How is it served to date by EK ?

10 flights per week

M*W*FS* 3:20a DXB 1 3:30p MNL I1 EK 332 Non-stop 332 8:10
*TWTFSS 8:20a DXB 1 8:20p MNL I1 EK 334 Non-stop 77W 8:00

M*W*FS* 7:05p MNL I1 12:40a+1 DXB 1 EK 333 Non-stop 332 9:35
*TWTFSS 11:50p MNL I1 5:00a+1 DXB 1 EK 335 Non-stop 77W 9:10
 
sq212
Posts: 263
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RE: PAL: To Acquire 6 A340s Or 777s

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 45):
I'm still not understanding the whole nature of the Air Philippines-PAL relationship. Why would PAL be giving A319's to Air Philippines? Is Air Philippines not a competitor of PAL?

The owner of PR acquired Air Philippines from Gutchalian group not long ago. The aircrafts composition are mainly the aging 732 serving secondary routes and occasionally do charter operations. Majority of the 732s are more than 20 years old. Needs to be replaced just like their fellow competitors Cebu Pacfic.

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
LHT Manila can now also sevice A320s, reported by Aerointernational

Yes. A320 MRO only started this October. Lufthansa Macroasia is jointly owned by Lufthansa and the owner of PR (51/49 split). The maintenance facility also handles 747/737 aircrafts.

Cheers

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