jerion
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F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:42 am

Frontier's frequency increases will include the following:
Beginning November 6, 2005:
* Denver to/from Salt Lake City (SLC) from four mainline flights to five.

Beginning December 18, 2005:
* Denver to/from Dallas (DFW) from five mainline flights to six.

Beginning January 4, 2006:
* Denver to/from Phoenix (PHX) from six mainline flights to seven.
* Denver to/from Las Vegas (LAS) from six mainline flights to seven.
* Denver to/from Chicago-Midway (MDW) from four mainline flights to five.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051024/clm523.html?.v=7
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stlgph
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:44 am

well, if that isn't an inclination on the planned Southwest routes....
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socalfive
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:46 am

This is going to be an interesting horse race.
 
Brick
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:52 am

So what cities will lose frequency? Or will these routes be utilizing new aircraft deliveries?
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ikramerica
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:54 am

What about LAX? Or flying into BUR? I'd like to see more Frontier flights to my area, as I would fly them more.

You listening F9? Fly into our area more so we can make good connections in DEN. We want you here! Even if your gate space at LAX is ratty...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 1):
well, if that isn't an inclination on the planned Southwest routes....

Um - I don't think Southwest will be starting DEN/DFW.  Smile

Quoting Brick (Reply 3):
So what cities will lose frequency? Or will these routes be utilizing new aircraft deliveries?

I doubt any city will lose frequency - exept, perhaps, CUN, but that wasn't in the plan for this.

Frontier has the aircraft to cope with these extra frequencies, and there are no new deliveries until March '06.

I'm not sure that any of this is a reaction to Southwest - Frontier people on another board are saying it has been in the pipeline for a while.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
stlgph
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Um - I don't think Southwest will be starting DEN/DFW. Smile

you don't say?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
USAFHummer
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:03 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
I'm not sure that any of this is a reaction to Southwest - Frontier people on another board are saying it has been in the pipeline for a while.

So it's just a pure coincidence that the additions to MDW, PHX, and LAS (3 strong cities for WN) are added right after WN announces DEN service??? Seems a little too coincidental for me...

Greg
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N1120A
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:03 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Even if your gate space at LAX is ratty...

Um, they have nowhere else to go.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ikramerica
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Um, they have nowhere else to go.

Why do you ALWAYS argue with me? What is your problem? Did I sleep with your sister and not call her or something?

just because they have nowhere else to go doesn't mean the gate space isn't ratty!!

And I said I'd still fly out of the terminal, it's just a fact that, unless something has changed recently, they fly out of an area that needs some work.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 7):
Seems a little too coincidental for me..

You may be right. I don't know. I am just repeating what some Frontier folk are saying on another board.

And they have had 5 x daily DEN/MDW before.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:16 am

Building PHX up to 7 flights a day is surprising seeing how they have lost money on the route since they went from 5 to 6 flights per day. Perhaps the 7th flight will just be a seasonal thing.

On the other hand, DFW/MDW/LAS increases are no brainers. I'm still undecided about SLC.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:18 am

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 2):
This is going to be an interesting horse race.

Frontier will be able to hold their own against Southwest.

Frontier has low operating costs like Southwest. But they offer IFE. People love their inflight entertainment.

I think, however, Southwest will definitely be a competitive threat to United.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
Why do you ALWAYS argue with me? What is your problem? Did I sleep with your sister and not call her or something?

 rotfl  rotfl 

That was funny except for the fact that I don't have a sister. I don't ALWAYS argue with you, I just point out where you are wrong. People do it to me all the time. That is how one learns.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
azstar
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:28 am

I guess you can't have too many empty airplanes flying between Denver and Phoenix. Let's add a few more to see if we can push the low factor down to 30% and the yield to .02 per mile.

[Edited 2005-10-25 01:31:01]
 
thelowfarehero
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:30 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Or flying into BUR? I'd like to see more Frontier flights to my area, as I would fly them more.

BUR...yeah, thats what I would like to see.....UA's DEN service from BUR is prettly ratty.
I HAATE AA!
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting Thelowfarehero (Reply 15):
BUR...yeah, thats what I would like to see.....UA's DEN service from BUR is prettly ratty.

Yeah, I really don't get UA's desire to put RJs on a route that goes from an airport that is much more of a high yield place.
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jetmatt777
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:45 am

It probably is just a coincidence;with more flights coming into DEN means they need more connections, I don't think they added more flights to defend they're hub.If they wanted to defend their hub the would add a lot more gates(if there is space)where WN couldn't buy any gates,or pospond their flights into DEN because of construction work on making more gates and/or terminals.

Thats my  twocents 

J E T M A T T 7 7 7
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N1120A
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 17):
If they wanted to defend their hub the would add a lot more gates(if there is space)

F9 is pretty much out of room, especially after UA decided to swallow up gates in A for Ted, much to F9's chagrin. WN would be in the C concourse, likely taking both the 1 free gate there plus that of TZ.

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 17):
where WN couldn't buy any gates

WN can't "buy" gates anywhere. They can enter into a lease with the airport, but they wont "own" it. This is even true of DAL.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jetmatt777
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
WN can't "buy" gates anywhere. They can enter into a lease with the airport, but they wont "own" it. This is even true of DAL.

Thats what i meant;in my model airport when i buy a new airplane for my model airport ive gottn used to saying "buy"not"lease" sorry for the mis-understanding
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
milemaster
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:15 am

Glad to see the additional DFW F9 flight as it will increase the number of connection opportunites. The few times I flew them this year they were oversold departing DFW, even overheard the station manager comment how it's been that way consistantly for quite some time.

Frontier has a great product.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:13 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 12):
I think, however, Southwest will definitely be a competitive threat to United.

I don't. UA has a lot of feed at DEN, and will easily be able to hold their own. In Chicago they deal with WN just fine (and don't give me the crap about how WN is at a different airport, they freakin' own MDW), Independence did a whole lot of nothing to them in IAD, and F9, while taking some market share, has not really crippled UA either (in fact, I think I read somewhere that the two airlines actually help each other in some weird twisted way). I look at this sort of like what WN going into ATL would be like...while ATL is obviously a much stronger airport for DL than DEN is for UA, it's a similar situation...large network carrier and a strong LCC, and that's about it.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 21):
I think I read somewhere that the two airlines actually help each other in some weird twisted way

I like "weird and twisted".  Smile

I don't know that they actually "help" each. If they did, United would give Frontier the A gates and wouldn't have started Ted, but I think they are not sworn enemies anymore.

Just this week, United CEO Tilton said that they are a better airline because of "having to compete with Frontier."

If Frontier has to transfer pax, they send 'em to United, and vice versa.

I think the days when United would "crush Frontier like a gnat" are gone.

And they'll do a better job against Southwest as allies, not as enemies.

Happily.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 21):
UA has a lot of feed at DEN,

Yea, i agree with you there. But I think Southwest will definitely grab marketshare in the non-stop markets where they compete with UA.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 21):
In Chicago they deal with WN just fine

I agree with you there too. But (and that's a big butt), Chicago is a much, much larger market than Denver, more easily accomodating 3 hub carriers (AA, UA, WN).

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
n471wn
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:27 pm

If Frontier were smart they should consider Colorado Springs now that WN has passed on it. I know the whole Western Pacific story but there is no way that Frontier can compete with WN on identical routes. After all, they did not really compete with UAL in that they were afraid to underprice them and so in the process they pissed off the Denver people just like United. I got hit with a $100 change fee on a one day change 6 weeks in advance. They cannot get away with that now that WN is in their house. I love their planes, the animals and all that but they had a chance to "open up Denver" and they failed to do so. Now that opportunity is lost and folks will stream to WN---I will be one of the first.
 
TWAAF9
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Dbba (Reply 24):
If Frontier were smart they should consider Colorado Springs now that WN has passed on it. I know the whole Western Pacific story but there is no way that Frontier can compete with WN on identical routes. After all, they did not really compete with UAL in that they were afraid to underprice them and so in the process they pissed off the Denver people just like United. I got hit with a $100 change fee on a one day change 6 weeks in advance. They cannot get away with that now that WN is in their house. I love their planes, the animals and all that but they had a chance to "open up Denver" and they failed to do so. Now that opportunity is lost and folks will stream to WN---I will be one of the first.

Hate to burst your Southwest bubble, but WN has fees for changing your flight, just like anyone else. And forget free same-day standby, too.
Ahh, the power of SABRE...
 
DLKAPA
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting Dbba (Reply 24):
I know the whole Western Pacific story but there is no way that Frontier can compete with WN on identical routes.

Oh trust me, they can. One airline has PTVs, a huge local following with multiple daily frequencies to almost every major market (with the exception of boston) in the contry, plus a huge connection to mexico, is known for impeccable inflight service, flies with a very unique branding that has local flavor, and is the darling of the mayor of Denver. The other airline is WN.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
UAPremierGuy
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:09 pm

Quoting Azstar (Reply 14):
I guess you can't have too many empty airplanes flying between Denver and Phoenix. Let's add a few more to see if we can push the low factor down to 30% and the yield to .02 per mile.

LOL Azstar. Anybody know the frequencies on this route? We know Frontier's, what about America West? That is one of their hubs and point-to-point service to Denver.

I checked in my computer, and UA ran 6 Ted flights to PHX today, upping to 7 in November with of course their A32S service. This market looks to certainly be flooded. UA was smart to run Ted service rather than Mainline on this segment. I understand LAS, MDW, DFW these are all connecting points, or high destination-destination traffic but PHX? Other than being a hub for America West...wouldn't be surprised to now see UA pull back some of its Ted flights here and use them for Mexico service, especially with its LAX & ORD plans to MEX using Ted aircraft announced today.
It's Time To Fly!
 
SWALoveField
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:15 pm

Quoting TWAAF9 (Reply 25):
Hate to burst your Southwest bubble, but WN has fees for changing your flight, just like anyone else. And forget free same-day standby, too.

That is not true. WN has no fees for changing your flight reservation. You are only charged (or credited) the difference in fare.

Robb
Dallas, TX
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 23):
I agree with you there too. But (and that's a big butt), Chicago is a much, much larger market than Denver, more easily accomodating 3 hub carriers (AA, UA, WN).

Um, I wouldn't exactly call Chicago (or anywhere) a hub for WN. Look at it this way. UA has like 500-600 departures per day at ORD, AA has almost as many as UA. From MDW, WN has what, 150 flights? Huge difference.

Quoting TWAAF9 (Reply 25):
Hate to burst your Southwest bubble, but WN has fees for changing your flight, just like anyone else.

Southwest has no change fee for any reservation, no matter the fare. You simply get a credit for the amount to use toward future travel if you are on a non-refundable ticket. If your changed ticket is less than the previous one, you get a credit for that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DLKAPA
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting UAPremierGuy (Reply 27):
This market looks to certainly be flooded. UA was smart to run Ted service rather than Mainline on this segment.

So instead of going with normal A320 service they were smart by running higher-capacity TED in a flooded market?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
iowaman
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
On the other hand, DFW/MDW/LAS increases are no brainers. I'm still undecided about SLC.

I feel the same way. There is seemingly endless LCC demand between DEN-DFW/MDW and especially LAS, even though LAS yields are going to be crap and already are somewhat.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 12):
Frontier will be able to hold their own against Southwest.

I agree as they have some connecting traffic, however I'm concerned
Frontier has low operating costs like Southwest. But they offer IFE. People love their inflight entertainment.

I think, however, Southwest will definitely be a competitive threat to United.

F9 definetly has the name in DEN and the benefit of connecting traffic, however WN has the national name for people flying to DEN, and will seriously hurt both F9 and UA's yields.

Quoting Milemaster (Reply 20):
Glad to see the additional DFW F9 flight as it will increase the number of connection opportunites.

Yep.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 23):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 21):
UA has a lot of feed at DEN,

Yea, i agree with you there. But I think Southwest will definitely grab marketshare in the non-stop markets where they compete with UA.

Yep.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 23):
I agree with you there too. But (and that's a big butt), Chicago is a much, much larger market than Denver, more easily accomodating 3 hub carriers (AA, UA, WN).

Yes, and WN has the benefit of connecting traffic through MDW also.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 23):
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Definetly, I'm anxious to hear the starting cities although as been discussed before it will probably be the usual LAS, PHX, MDW, maybe BNA, SLC or something

Quoting Dbba (Reply 24):
If Frontier were smart they should consider Colorado Springs now that WN has passed on it.

Move the whole hub to COS?? Hope not.
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:58 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 30):
Quoting UAPremierGuy (Reply 27):
This market looks to certainly be flooded. UA was smart to run Ted service rather than Mainline on this segment.

So instead of going with normal A320 service they were smart by running higher-capacity TED in a flooded market?

United is stupid to run Ted on any service. I mean, do they really think that running a 4 F/A Ted bird will make them more money and expose them to less risk on LAX-SJD than would an A319 with F? Not a chance in hell, but it is this kind of thinking that has gotten my carrier of choice in financial trouble.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
flyboy7974
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:18 pm

MSYtristar, where did you find or get the info about F9 losing on the phx market? are you able to load info on an employee site that shows load factors and yield ratios per market?

I also think that everybody is forgetting that we are about to enter into phoenix's seasonal market. from october until april are the heaviest loads and the most demand for all airlines into the phoenix area, as we see that every year airlines increase their shedules and flights into phx. in the past, airlines used to just add larger a/c, but as we have seen widebodies disappear from airline fleets, now they are forced to actually add flights.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
United is stupid to run Ted on any service. I mean, do they really think that running a 4 F/A Ted bird will make them more money and expose them to less risk on LAX-SJD than would an A319 with F? Not a chance in hell, but it is this kind of thinking that has gotten my carrier of choice in financial trouble.

I completely agree. TED is only in existance to cook the books on mainline, as far as I can tell. They really don't do much and UA employees (at least at DEN) really hate working over on the TED side.

Just ask this guy:


How's the weather Alex?  Silly
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
ckfred
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:28 pm

I saw an article in Saturday's Chicago Tribune about the new WN service to DEN. Mike Boyd, a well-known analyst in the airline sector, thinks that F9 and UA could very well pummel WN, since the competition between F9 and UA have kept fares reasonably low.

It should be interesting.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:12 pm

Quoting Dbba (Reply 24):
After all, they did not really compete with UAL in that they were afraid to underprice them and so in the process they pissed off the Denver people just like United.

If they did not underprice United, why did United start Ted?

Frontier's fares are capped - mainline United fares are not capped - Ted's fares are capped.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
flashmeister
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:18 pm

Mike Boyd, a well-known analyst in the airline sector, thinks that F9 and UA could very well pummel WN, since the competition between F9 and UA have kept fares reasonably low.

Ugh. OK. Boyd might be right, but I doubt he is. No one is pummelling anyone, folks.

Does anyone think that, perhaps, WN started DEN because they know that TZ is on the ropes, perhaps for good this time? Maybe, just maybe, DEN-MDW happens to be one of TZ's few cash cows, and WN wants to make sure they keep it that way.

Southwest will land at DEN... and the world will keep spinning and spinning. United will have a ton of flights, Frontier will have a whole lot more flights than WN, and that's that. Look for Southwest to be a firm number 3 and have it be the end of it.

If Southwest could and would squash competitors like little bugs, explain why Midwest is still in the air. Or AirTran at BWI, for that matter. Even if they wanted to, the DOJ wouldn't let them do it in this day and age.

And, Southwest isn't retarded here... they know that they'll get two, three gates tops. Then, that's it for years at least, and only if DEN agrees to build more. If DEN builds, F9 will be the first to howl bloody murder, and rightly so considering the fiasco with the gates that they needed two years ago, and stll don't have. Mayor Hickenlooper, however, is a bigtime F9 fan.

25-30 WN flights a day is not going to shoot Frontier or United out of the sky, and likewise, F9 and UA won't be able to kick Southwest totally out, either. IMHO, this hurts HP, AS, FL at DEN more in the long term -- it kills a key connection opportunity to a top tier market. UA and F9 are entrenched enough that they'll do just fine.
 
PVD757
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:26 pm

I also think that DEN is a big enough market to support a modest WN operation. Look at the feed from east coast stations that have NO DEN (UA or F9) service at all that WN could stimulate with low fares (even with a stop in MDW or BWI):

MHT
PVD
BDL
ISP
ORF
RDU
JAX
JAN
ALB
BUF

...plus I agree with the idea of protecting the DEN-MDW route and the DEN-PHX-Hawaii connection that TZ is running right now. The local WN folks here at PVD have told me that they funnel a decent amount of pax to DEN via the codeshare with TZ. They also told me that DEN is the best codeshare city based on the number of daily passengers (versus MSP, SFO, and HNL/OGG).

I think WN will cover the basics to open up thier network to DEN and offer some bigger O & D markets:

SLC 3 (connections to the NW)
PHX 2 (connections to California)
LAS 2 (same as PHX)
MDW 3 (connections to the NE and Midatlantic)
HOU 1 (connections to the SE)
BWI 1 (connections to the east coast)

maybe BNA instead of HOU
maybe STL or MCI gets a 1X daily
maybe LAX or OAK gets a 1X daily
 
gigneil
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:36 pm

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 37):
Look for Southwest to be a firm number 3 and have it be the end of it.

Southwest won't be anywhere near #3. I'd expect Delta to probably retain that title.

There's only so much WN can do out of 2 gates.

N
 
georgiabill
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:49 pm

I agree with all these points brought up in this thread. 1 WN isn't going to put anyone out of business by serving DEN. 2 A few carriers like AS AA will see their yields hurt. 3 there is market from the northeast. However yes WN will gain DEN passengers from cities like RDU,BDL ALB, ISP PVD and MHT. UA will lose a few from BOS to PVD and MHT. However in most cases WN tends to stimulate new additional traffic from passengers who would normally seek other forms of transportation(cars,trains busses) The only point not made is whichever Frontier or Southwest begins nonstop service first from a few of those eastern cities wins those markets. Most passengers prefer nonstop. Frontier has Frontier Express. A battle for the Northeast and Mid Atlantic market place just begins. As for WN in DEN, I think ultimately depending on gate space and passenger growth you could see a 40-50 flights a day. Just my opinion.
 
acjflyer
Posts: 294
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:58 pm

An increase of frequency between DEN and SLC is a great idea. I just got back from a weekend trip to DEN from SLC and both flights were full. The service I received on F9 far surpasses anything I have ever experienced on WN. The aircraft was clean, the crew was great, and the captain made a personal effort of thanking all of us for flying F9 by turning around and thanking us while he was still sitting in the cockpit finishing up his procedures at the gate. I will never fly WN if F9 flies the same route.
 
PVD757
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:03 am

BDL, RDU, PVD, MHT, and BUF (seasonal?) could all support a 1X DEN on WN, F9, or UA. UA and F9 have the CR7 whcih makes some of these even more doable. The first carrier to jump in will control that market and basically shut-out the potential for a second carrier to profitably serve the same route. In MHT and PVD's case, you can also factor in the greater BOS cachement area's pool of passengers. (see the other DEN thread for more on my opinion about this).
 
airfrnt
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:55 am

Denver has a lot of capacity,and that capacity is fairly well spread out among the different carriers. Airtran, American, American West, Alaska, Big Sky, British Airways, Continental, Delta, Frontier, Great Lakes, Jet Blue, Horizon, Laufthansa, Northwest, Hooters, US Airways, United all have decent coverage there. Delta has 4 gates, American has three gates. Southwest at two gates is (IMHO) more of a threat to cities they may have in common with US Airways and American then anyone else.

Unlike Southwest's other previous actions, they don't have enough gate space to really challange either F9 or UA here. The pricing at DEN is not so out of whack that there is room for Southwest to devistate a carrier.

In fact, the best part of this news is really for DEN. This gets them closer to expanding concourse A/C or starting concourse D.
 
flashmeister
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:38 am

I think ultimately depending on gate space and passenger growth you could see a 40-50 flights a day. Just my opinion.

To run 40 flights a day, WN needs 5 gates at their average utilization of 9 flights/gate/day. Short of constructing new facilities, I just don't see where WN is going to pull this one off. I think what Southwest is banking on is DL shedding a gate, US+HP shedding a gate, and perhaps NW dropping one. The problem is, on C, they have AirTran and Alaska, who may also want gates to expand into.

Southwest is going to be tapped at 30 flights a day absolute maximum in the mid-term, and that's if they can manage to shove 10 flights a day through a gate -- all the way out at the end of C literally in the middle of nowhere at DEN.

In fact, the best part of this news is really for DEN. This gets them closer to expanding concourse A/C or starting concourse D.

If Southwest becomes the reason that DEN gets to work on expansion, and that expansion comes on C, I'd be shocked. Expanding C won't help keep Frontier and United happy (By the way, you can make all the "move CO to C and give gates to F9" plans you want, but CO has already said No multiple times).

DEN's vested interest is in keeping their incumbent hub carriers happy -- just like MSP is pretty much built to NW's standards, DEN is run by UA and F9. That's the way it is. If WN really thinks that DEN will come in and build for them because they just showed up, well, they're about 10 years late.

Now, if WN wants to take their BFI money and build D on their own, have at it.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:50 am

First, I'm amused how much noise is being made over WN getting two whole gates at DEN.  spin 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Um - I don't think Southwest will be starting DEN/DFW.

Please, don't go out on a limb.  duck 
Are there any more gates "up for grabs" at DEN?
Out of curiosity Mariner, do you think UA will hold onto their "A gates" after F9 finishes building their new gates? And while we have a thread I know you'll look into, do you know the progress of the new gates? Heck, while we're at it, do you know F9's delivery schedule for the rest of 2005/2006?

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 37):

Does anyone think that, perhaps, WN started DEN because they know that TZ is on the ropes, perhaps for good this time?

Perhaps. WN would have had a good look at TZ's books when they gave them the cash.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 43):
Unlike Southwest's other previous actions, they don't have enough gate space to really challange either F9 or UA here. The pricing at DEN is not so out of whack that there is room for Southwest to devistate a carrier.

One thing that Boyd said that I agreed with is that WN won't be stimulating much demand at DEN due to F9. WN will fill seats, there is obviously demand. Demand F9 hopes to fill. I don't always agree with Boyd, but his articles are worth the read.

Lightsaber
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MaverickM11
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:07 am

I think we'll see a similar situation as DTW or CLE where NW and CO have respectively kept WN at bay with only a handful of marginally full flights.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
UAcosCS
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Jerion (Thread starter):
Frontier's frequency increases will include the following:
Beginning November 6, 2005:
* Denver to/from Salt Lake City (SLC) from four mainline flights to five.

Beginning December 18, 2005:
* Denver to/from Dallas (DFW) from five mainline flights to six.

Beginning January 4, 2006:
* Denver to/from Phoenix (PHX) from six mainline flights to seven.
* Denver to/from Las Vegas (LAS) from six mainline flights to seven.
* Denver to/from Chicago-Midway (MDW) from four mainline flights to five.

Give em' HELL F9

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 12):
I think, however, Southwest will definitely be a competitive threat to United.

They would be a bigger threat to F9 before they would UA



Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
I think the days when United would "crush Frontier like a gnat" are gone.

Keep believing that, UAL has never had the chance to take them down. F9 would cry foul. If UAL came in with their huge network and lowered fares, they would destroy F9. But we will never see that, it isn't fare, remember.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 26):
Quoting Dbba (Reply 24):
I know the whole Western Pacific story but there is no way that Frontier can compete with WN on identical routes.
I would take F9 over WN any day. F9 offers a far more superior product than WN.



[quote=DLKAPA,reply=30]Quoting UAPremierGuy (Reply 27):
This market looks to certainly be flooded. UA was smart to run Ted service rather than Mainline on this segment.
I agree, First was always compted, Never paid for.

So instead of going with normal A320 service they were smart by running higher-capacity TED in a flooded market?

Adding more seats and lowering fares has filled TED between the routes, the product is far better than a nasty 735 or 733.

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 44):
DEN's vested interest is in keeping their incumbent hub carriers happy -- just like MSP is pretty much built to NW's standards, DEN is run by UA and F9. That's the way it is. If WN really thinks that DEN will come in and build for them because they just showed up, well, they're about 10 years late.

Why shouldn't UA think this way? When you run a handful of Gates on A and ALL of B you can have that attitude. Same goes for F9 on A.
We had dreams and songs to sing, It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry.
 
ikramerica
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
I just point out where you are wrong. People do it to me all the time. That is how one learns.

Guy, that's not true. You don't just "point out when I am wrong." You pick arguments over mundane things or "correct" things that don't need correcting! Or tell people they are WRONG when all you add is a clarification, or false information.

It isn't the same thing as correcting mistakes, and it is annoying.

Or can you explain how saying "they have nowhere else to go" is correcting the fact that F9s gates at LAX T3 are ratty?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Defends DEN

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 45):
Please, don't go out on a limb.   

It seemed funny to me, given the fuss about DAL. But then - people say I have a warped sense of humor.  

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 45):
do you know the progress of the new gates?

There is no progress - the gates are not (yet) being built.

Frontier CEO Potter takes the simple view that the airline will not pay (its part) of $100 million for new gates, when there are perfectly good gates - which United doesn't actually need - sitting there.

United inists that it needs the A gates for "future growth", but they have agreed that the two of the gates it had "loaned' to Frontier could be poermanent.

DIA gave 'em $10 million for this act of kindness.

So it is an impasse. United won't leave A, and Frontier won't pay for new gates.

(Given that DIA would pay the building cost, the cost to Frontier would be in rentals.)

I believe there are "meetings going on" as I write this.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 45):
do you know F9's delivery schedule for the rest of 2005/2006?

The next A319 is due in March 06. Then there are 8 more due that year (actually Frontier's financial year, but people get confused).

The final seven (I think) of the present contract come the following year.

There is also provision for Frontier to lease a further 16 x A319/319 over tat time frame. Frontier won't move on this until the price of oil "settles down".

However, I believe that the first talks with Airbus for "the new order" have begun.

Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 47):
UAL has never had the chance to take them down.

Ted was called "Ted - the Frontier killer" on many, many boards, including this one.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-10-25 19:50:19]
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