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AirIndia
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How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:39 pm

An article with positives about PP...

The full article is on this link

Some excerpts...

The Indian Airlines' decision to acquire aircraft has been cleared but only after Patel created another layer of bureaucracy -- by setting up an Oversight Committee headed by a former Comptroller and Auditor General and getting the prime minister to set up an Empowered Group of Ministers so that acquisition issues didn't have to keep going back to Cabinet. The same structure will be replicated in the case of Air India when the Cabinet clears the acquisition.

Acquisition of aircraft is tricky business. Nothing is easier than charging the minister with corruption because so many variables are involved. Should aircraft be leased or acquired? What should the proportion be? Whom should they be bought from? Because these are large orders and because the market is limited, was enough care taken to leverage the purchase?

In the past several years, both Indian Airlines and Air India have been paralysed because ministers have been either too scared or too hamstrung to take these decisions.

The last time Air India bought aircraft, for instance, was in the 1990s. Even during Patel's ministership, the Indian Airlines board cleared acquisition in 2002, but the Memorandum of Understanding for the purchase is yet to be signed.
 
himmat01
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Thread starter):
Even during Patel's ministership, the Indian Airlines board cleared acquisition in 2002, but the Memorandum of Understanding for the purchase is yet to be signed.

The rediff article has got it wrong. Patel became a minister only in May 2004. In 2002 that moron Shahnawaz Hussain was the civil aviation minister.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:40 pm

Things could radically change if a political will is present. Every thing starts with papers and conventions...and then funds and market are easy to find and even easy to create !!!

Aviation in India,Emirates,...is at its edge mainly due to that factor.
 
cricket
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:50 pm

That moron Shahnawaz is the man who started Air-India off on their fleet renewal program and refurbishment and also the guy who appointed Thulasidas - and compared to the other ministers in the NDA government Shahnawaz was by far and away the best (other than his glad-eye). PP has done a lot no doubt and low-cost travel has boomed under his stewardship and the rebuilding of the national carriers has begun in earnest - he is a good minister no doubt - but for gods sake why does a 1h35m BOM-DEL now take 2h00m at the very least? And for that I blame PP.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
mrniji
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:00 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 3):
but for gods sake why does a 1h35m BOM-DEL now take 2h00m at the very least? And for that I blame PP.

last time I flre DEL-BOM, it exactly tool 1h35m, though scheduled for 2 hr! Big grin

Yes, PP is a very good minister.. facts suggest that during his ministership far more happened than during 5 years NDA, with doutchebags like Rudy, Hussein, Yadav et al... a clear indicator for which government has the better remedies in terms of civil aviation, and maybe beyond..

Guru, I will reply to your email later...
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:39 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 3):
but for gods sake why does a 1h35m BOM-DEL now take 2h00m at the very least? And for that I blame PP.

Ours Still takes 1hr 40 mins With peacefull Non complaining Payload  Smile

I think PP has done a lot too,Maybe a little more time is needed to Finetune things.
After the Tarmec Bays are Expanded,the Terminal Expanded & the Exit Taxitracks in place.The Difference will be noticed.
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 4):
Guru, I will reply to your email later...

sure...

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
peacefull Non complaining Payload

i like that...


Mel, I am leaving this saturday morning by KF 625AM. Tell me when you are free... would liek to meet up...
 
planeboy
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:28 am

By far the most useless ever civil aviation minister India has ever seen is C M Ibrahim (Cabinet rank, 1996), who was Deve Gowda's manFriday. He confessed recently that Gowda took him to Delhi to compensate his poor Hindi skills. Nothing could be more stupid than this! Now both are sworn enemies of each other.

Now PP is showing that he too can be equally idiot by supporting Gowda against Narayan Murthy when latter resigned from BIAL
 
TKMCE
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:09 am

What PP has done is freed up Indian skies to competition more than anything else. I am not in favor of all out open skies nor I am in favor of plain dumb measures such as SAARC open skies- a brain child of the BJP govt incidentally and not PP (intended only to rob Indian Airlines and Air India of revenue from some of their bread and butter sectors and gift them to Air Lanka and indirectly Emirates). However PP, has gone and liberalised bilaterals with a vengeance and it has now been shown that not just the foreign carriers benefit but airlines like Indian Airlines and Air India (eg - AIs DEL ATQ BHX YYZ flight), not to speak of the passengers. THhowing open Iternational routes to t Jet and Sahara for the international routes has also meant that AI and IC are now more agressive than ever in opening up routes to claim their due share of entitlements before it falls into the hands of the private players. Eg are AIs new routes to both East Asia and the US, and Indian Airlines increased frequencies to BKK from places like HYD (good bye - the earlier South India Darshan HYD-BLR-MAA-BKK flight) or the direct BOM SHJ flight instead of the previous same plane service via CCJ and COK!

As for Airport congestion - well having worked for sometime in the greenfield airport sector, I can honestly say that the man is doing his best. The crucial agreements for the HYD project was signed during his tenue and as far as BLR is concerned the blame is on Devegowda who for all practical purposes remote controls the Karanataka govt , and who is putting delays in the project for reasons only best known to him. PP has also gone a long way in taking up the BOM DEL privatisation projects..

And the one thing I really liked is the DGCA directive that has modified legislation so that pilots if proven that they acted against the public interest can have their licence terminated if they they dont give 6 monnths notice!
Now that was brave.......... and shows that the chap does know what he is doing!
 
LAXDESI
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 8):
I am not in favor of all out open skies nor I am in favor of plain dumb measures such as SAARC open skies- a brain child of the BJP govt incidentally and not PP (intended only to rob Indian Airlines and Air India of revenue from some of their bread and butter sectors and gift them to Air Lanka and indirectly Emirates).

SAARC open skies helped many, like me, who were able to travel to India during peak season and not pay an exorbitant price. Sure, SAARC open skies helped the likes of Emirates, but it also helped the Indian Economy with added visitors, businessmen, and so on. PP has correctly curtailed the open skies period to a shorter duration now that revised bilaterals have added new capacity.
 
mrniji
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 9):
SAARC open skies helped many, like me, who were able to travel to India during peak season and not pay an exorbitant price. Sure, SAARC open skies helped the likes of Emirates, but it also helped the Indian Economy with added visitors, businessmen, and so on. PP has correctly curtailed the open skies period to a shorter duration now that revised bilaterals have added new capacity.

I don't get the argument here. How is SAARC Open Skies related to you travelling from the States to India? I guess you did not take PK... And how is EK related ´to this? No offense at all, I just don't get it..  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
LAXDESI
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting from the linked article on the issue of international flying rights:

Patel says that's not fair. A decision taken by him from, which private airlines have profited has been to let them fly abroad. The ministry devised a formula with two central variables: the number of years in the domestic market and the number of kilometers flown by the airline.
Two players met the criterion -- Jet Airways and Sahara Airlines. You could argue that a newcomer -- such as, say, Paramount or Deccan -- with a few thousand kilometers flying time, and just a few aircraft -- should be allowed to fly abroad from day one.
But you could argue that they should operate on the domestic circuit for a couple of years and only then be given permission to go abroad. Patel has opted for the latter argument.


IMO, international flying rights should have been open to everyone, including the likes of Air Deccan/Kingfisher. Air Deccan/Kingfisher would have done a better job than Air Sahara has done so far. At minimum, SE Asia sector should have been open to everyone.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting MrNiji (Reply 10):
I guess you did not take PK... And how is EK related ´to this? No offense at all, I just don't get it..

I did not take either PK or EK. However, EK did provide additional seats/connections to MAA through Colombo, in alliance with Air Lanka. That possibility added many peak season seats and kept the overall prices low. I do remember one winter I was looking at a schedule of LAX-LHR on Virgin, and then on to Dubai/Colombo on EK, and then to MAA on Air Lanka. I was lucky to find something on Thai and avoid the longer route, both in miles and time.
 
mrniji
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 12):
I did not take either PK or EK. However, EK did provide additional seats/connections to MAA through Colombo, in alliance with Air Lanka.

You mean SriLankan  Wink - this does not offset the fact that the SAARC region is still regulated by bilats, i.e. India - Sri Lanka, India - Pakistan etc.. Hence, restrictions still apply

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 12):
However, EK did provide additional seats/connections to MAA through Colombo, in alliance with Air Lanka.

Since EK does not operate to India on UL code, the alledged open sky is not relevant. you are confused in the sense that code sharing agreements are subject to Traffic Restrictions

[Edited 2005-10-26 02:16:16]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
LAXDESI
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting MrNiji (Reply 13):
this does not offset the fact that the SAARC region is still regulated by bilats, i.e. India - Sri Lanka, India - Pakistan etc.. Hence, restrictions still apply

Didn't open skies during peak season mean no restictions on number of flights by SriLankan- hence, restrictions did not apply.

Quoting MrNiji (Reply 13):
Since EK does not operate to India on UL code, the alledged open sky is not relevant. you are confused in the sense that code sharing agreements are subject to Traffic Restrictions

I do not know if the entire ticket was on EK as I never bothered about the details as it was my last resort. My point is that the possibility of this connection, and the resulting increased supply keep prices on other connections in check.

BTW, last year I flew LAX-NRT-BKK on Japan Airlines purchased on the web, and then bought a ticket on Thai for BKK-MAA from an agent in MAA. I picked up my BKK-MAA ticket at Thai office at the BKK Airport. This worked out cheaper by at least US$400 compared to anything I could get on JAL or Thai. JAL does offer onward connections from BKK to MAA on IC and Thai. Surprisingly, Thai was more expensive than JAL. I look forward to doing a similar deal this winter, unless Thai has a good deal on their non-stop to BKK from LAX.
 
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 9):
SAARC open skies helped many, like me, who were able to travel to India during peak season and not pay an exorbitant price

Well... the airlines are not run for charity! To survive, they have to make money as well- and it is only during peak season they can raise fares! And believe me once the season ends, the fares drop very rapidly! The winter open sky now makes it worse in the India Middle East market - overcapacity in an off peak time further hits the yield!

The main beneficiary of SAARC open skies have been Sri Lankan and since EK is a major share holder, Emirates as well! It is not routes like MAA DXB where AI or IC is hit - instead it is places like CCJ which is a "Restricted" airport. But thanks to SAARC open skies, Srilankan has made a back door entry, and dumps capacity even during peak time ( ofcourse no doubt helping the likes of you) - but hurting the airlines and thereby hitting Air India and Indian Airlines...... No one wants to travel CCJ CMB, everyone is connecting onwards to the Middle East!


As the US domestic deregulation has show, too much too soon can hurt also!
 
Pomnath
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:43 pm

All this is fine, but fact remains that despite so many new players and flights, not one airline has placed a "people mover" kind of service on the high density metro routes like DEL-BOM or BLR-MAA. Other than Air India and their patchwork service, the rest still flog the same 737/320 and even CRJ thus clogging up valuable tarmac time.

A few good single class 747 aircraft of the sort they use in Japan for high density short distance routes and most of the current churn would get resolved.

Incidentally, the loads AND yields pre-Diwali this year are amazing. Take a look at what Jet Airways and Kingfisher, for example, are achieving this weekend on BOM-DEL, for example.
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LAXDESI
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 16):
A few good single class 747 aircraft of the sort they use in Japan for high density short distance routes and most of the current churn would get resolved.

Or how about 757, A330, and 777s? I am sure there is a good reason it has not been tried. I wonder why did Jet not use its A340s on London sector and use the freed up A330s on domestic routes?
 
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:45 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 16):
few good single class 747 aircraft of the sort they use in Japan

Remember Cpt. Gopinath mentioning DN's intention of filling up a 380 with 800 pax on DEL-BLR... there was some thinking then.... maybe if KF get their 380 b4 comleting 5 yrs... they might ply them domestic.
 
Pomnath
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:21 pm

I have NO IDEA why Air India does not operate one of the old 747-200s lying idle on some sort of a BOM-DEL-BOM shuttle route. I do know that Indian Airlines does operate one of their old A-300s on some routes which are otherwise operated by A-320s, when load demands or for operational reasons.

But using bigger / higher capacity aircraft on high density domestic routes would really free up tarmac and airspace.

The 380 is in the future. Those old 747s and 300s are Here & Now.

Why did Jet Airways not use their 340s on domestic routes? I guess it was because they were/are wet-leased already. Besides, the configurations are for international operations, and usng them on domestic might have impacted international schedule integrity.
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:06 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 19):
have NO IDEA why Air India does not operate one of the old 747-200s lying idle on some sort of a BOM-DEL-BOM shuttle route. I do know that Indian Airlines does operate one of their old A-300s on some routes

The airport infrastructure could be one reason. Can any domestic terminal handle the loads if say 2 747s carrying 500 pax each arrive simultaneously? Ok it may be too exaggerating to say that 2 747s might arrive toghether, but will the scenario be any different if suddenly 600 pax start to jam into the arrivals at either DEL or BOM...

Probably late night or early mornings are the right time to have such super economy low fare (I assume that the fares would be low on a high density single config arrangement) flights...
 
mrniji
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
I do not know if the entire ticket was on EK as I never bothered about the details as it was my last resort. My point is that the possibility of this connection, and the resulting increased supply keep prices on other connections in check.



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
Didn't open skies during peak season mean no restictions on number of flights by SriLankan- hence, restrictions did not apply.

Finally I got your point! My bad, sorry..  Wink you are right.. but the Traffic Restrictions thing is something to keep in mind.. do a search in Amadeus for some flights operated on Codeshare Basis, you will see "TR" indicating Traffic Restrictions, i.e. only in conjunction iwth other tickets!

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 20):
The airport infrastructure could be one reason. Can any domestic terminal handle the loads if say 2 747s carrying 500 pax each arrive simultaneously?

They (AI) could use the international terminal.. however, there should not be any difference between the handling of two, let's say, A300 or a 742,.. especially since the latter are parked remotely (w/o aerobridges) in domestic operations.. btw, in regard to the latter, is there any airport in India where a domestic flights (apart from AI's flights, that are from int terminal) are welcomed by aerobridges? Or only those lousy IC buses exist?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
himmat01
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:59 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 20):
The airport infrastructure could be one reason. Can any domestic terminal handle the loads if say 2 747s carrying 500 pax each arrive simultaneously? Ok it may be too exaggerating to say that 2 747s might arrive toghether, but will the scenario be any different if suddenly 600 pax start to jam into the arrivals at either DEL or BOM...

DEL had the same arrival building both for international and domestic arrivals before May 1986. There must have been more than 2-3 B747s/DC10s/Tristars arriving within hours of each other. If it could handle it then, I guess a single B747 or A330/340 arriving at any given time should not pose a problem.

The only problem would be apron space for a B747 at DEL domestic terminal but it can be reconfigured to handle 747s.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:17 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 6):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
peacefull Non complaining Payload

i like that...

Its True  Smile

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 6):
Mel, I am leaving this saturday morning by KF 625AM. Tell me when you are free... would liek to meet up

I'll call you on Thursday Morning.

Quoting Planeboy (Reply 7):
Now PP is showing that he too can be equally idiot by supporting Gowda against Narayan Murthy when latter resigned from BIAL

N.Murthy should not have Resigned  Sad

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 8):
And the one thing I really liked is the DGCA directive that has modified legislation so that pilots if proven that they acted against the public interest can have their licence terminated if they they dont give 6 monnths notice!

6 Months is Criminal.Should be 3 months.I think its being challenged in Court.

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 19):
Why did Jet Airways not use their 340s on domestic routes

Didn't they use it for Bom-Del-Bom.

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 20):
Can any domestic terminal handle the loads if say 2 747s carrying 500 pax each arrive simultaneously

Considering parking at International Terminal & moving the Pax via Perimeter road to Domestic would be time consuming.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cricket
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:01 am

Firstly, PP is supporting Deve Gowda against NR because of political reasons in Karnataka - I think Deve Gowda is the worst PM we have had in the recent past - anyway we aren't discussing politics here anyhow. But East-Asian style people movers in India - hmmmm - I'ld love to see how long luggage takes then. Anyway, I would like someone in the know to tell me whats up with GOI? Its seen one heck of a lot of traffic growth and all sorts of times too - one of Go's flights will be late at night - isn't the Indian Navy throwing a fit?
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Pomnath
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 24):
But East-Asian style people movers in India - hmmmm - I'ld love to see how long luggage takes then

Jet Airways states that over 50% of their passengers travel with hand baggage only. And have you noticed how baggage reaches the carousel before the passengers do lately?

Quoting Cricket (Reply 24):
Anyway, I would like someone in the know to tell me whats up with GOI? Its seen one heck of a lot of traffic growth and all sorts of times too - one of Go's flights will be late at night - isn't the Indian Navy throwing a fit?

The Indian navy (like the Indian Air Force, and HAL for that matter too . . .) have figured out that co-operating with civil aviation can only mean better things for everybody. GOI & PNQ are two examples where ATC watch hours are being extended (PNQ just went up to midnight a few days ago). Interim a fair bit of training moves to smaller cities with equally big airfields, like Belgaum and Nasik.

As to what's happening in Goa, well, plain and simple tourist boom at very decent rates too.

You need to travel BOM-GOI on one of Jet Airways brand new single-class 737-800s (winglets), or on Kingfisher/SpiceJet/Air Sahara/Air Deccan and now Go to see, never mind the LCCs.
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 24):
one of Go's flights will be late at night - isn't the Indian Navy throwing a fit

With 0S already having their Famous Del-Amd-Bom-Amd-Del Night Flight.
With more Night ops.More bays will be cleared at BOM  Smile
regds
MEL
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TKMCE
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting AirIndia (Thread starter):
Months is Criminal.Should be 3 months.I think its being challenged in Court.

Well being challenged in court - has been bandied about ever since the law came out more than a month back. Nothing has happened and even if they do go to court it is unlikely ( unless the Judge concerned is either extrodinarily stupid - or been bought off - both not too unusual here) to win. THe law is crystal clear - it says if hte government feels the "leaving is against publc interest".

In quiet a few cases , the GOVT can prove that it will be against public interest.
1 THe Air India Pilots joke of a strike for SAARS protection (something which finally led to the IPG beeing booted out - and no court coming to their help either).

2 THe recent literal grounding of Sahara after a lot of pilots walked out to join AIX, KF etc - Sahara services were widely disrupted and it WAS agaist public interest.

3 The recent reverse shift from AIX to Sahara, leading to one of AIX aircraft idling in the grond at COK for a weeks due to lack pf pilots. If it had happened another three weeks down the line with demand at its peak, agains the court would have said nothing!

In fact i think incidetns 2 and 3 led to the law being forumlated - oce again a job well done by the ministry!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 27):

I've spoken to Pilots on this Issue.They are confident of it being relaxed.Alsso depends on the CO.Out here Our Co allowed Pilots to join 9W,0S & It by giving them the required NOC.
From a Pilots Point of view.Can he decide 6 months in Advance that He'd leave for another Carrier.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Pomnath
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
From a Pilots Point of view.Can he decide 6 months in Advance that He'd leave for another Carrier.

regds

From an owner/operators point of view, just wait till they get together in a few weeks, now that loads are going up, yields are shooting up and the dust is settling down.

I would think that a "pool" system for "sharing" pilots will emerge soon.
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 29):
I would think that a "pool" system for "sharing" pilots will emerge soon.

Yeah thats a possibility of an Agreement between them,Then the Pilots would be Paid Bonded Labourers  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cricket
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:48 am

I guess the situation will improve in about 18-24 months once a lot of the F/O's today become Commanders. But until then the situation with Commanders of 737's and A32X planes will remain grim.
Will these rules apply to expats as well? Or do expats work under different work rules?
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Pomnath
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 31):
I guess the situation will improve in about 18-24 months once a lot of the F/O's today become Commanders

Look at some of the cowboys and pretty boys in the co-pilot seat nowadays and once they become commanders, you and me are going to want to know at time of booking the ticket what sort of minimum actual experience the commander has before getting on a domestic flight.
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 31):
Will these rules apply to expats as well? Or do expats work under different work rules

If the Expat decides to Quit.How do you stop him.Although He can be prevented from Joining another "Indian" Operator.
 Smile
regds
MEL
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AirIndia
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:22 pm

in the mean while... Boeing ties up with IISc Bangalore for development of next gen aircraft... the link is here

I am sure this should give impetus to the AI-Boeing deal from the GOIs side.

This is good news for indian academics as the research & development scenario in India will get a boost.

Airbus and Boeing are already outsourcing their S/W from Indian firm HCL...

Finally india makes some contribution to global aviation (apart from just providing revenue pax  Wink )
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:57 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 34):
Finally india makes some contribution to global aviation (apart from just providing revenue pax )

HAL Built Emergency Exit doors for the A320s.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cricket
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:29 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 34):
Finally india makes some contribution to global aviation

Um, the software part has been happening for the last decade or so. But this time, particularly with the 787 the amount of involvement is huge.
And of course there is HAL's Dhruv, which is a good chopper.
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:12 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 36):
HAL's Dhruv, which is a good chopper

Is it being exported to any other country..

But its a pity that a country that can send satellites into space has not even a single successful indeginous aircraft (commercial/military)
 
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:05 am

Does India have to waste huge amounts of money developing commercial transports? Atlest I guess we Indians learned from the foolishness of the Brits - a la Concorde!

There is not exactly a shortage of commercial airplanes in India right now - and even if there is - I dont think it is going to affect our transprtation links drastically - the days of bribing airline staff for that precious BOM DEL seat have now long since gone!
 
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:19 am



Quoting AirIndia (Reply 37):
Is it being exported to any other country..

I heard the ALH was going to be sold to the Israel AF.

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 38):
Does India have to waste huge amounts of money developing commercial transports

If a 100-120 seater was Locally Manufactured.It would be cheaper in the long run.
regds
MEL

[Edited 2005-10-27 17:21:31]
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stealthpilot
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 19):

But using bigger / higher capacity aircraft on high density domestic routes would really free up tarmac and airspace.

747s on Indian domestic routes?? Apart from BOM-DEL I don�t see it happening anytime soon (even a frequent Bom-Del is pushing it). It's not as simple as combining three 737 flights into one. Carriers like Jet Airways need to offer the flexibility and timings to their clients. It's not just a matter of seats; do we see multiple 747 on busy American domestic routes?? They are way busier than the traffic between Bom-Del.
Would it free up slots and airspace, well maybe, but the culprit isn�t the number of flights offered by the airlines; its horrible infrastructure at even our big airports. Let's not blame the airlines for the mess (maybe a little  Smile), the fault lies with the AAI and the government, not Naresh Goyal or Capt. Gopinath

-Nikhil
eP007
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:26 am

I hope the Person who replaces Praful Patel continues the work.
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MEL
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:36 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 41):
I hope the Person who replaces Praful Patel continues the work.

He is not leaving anytime soon... is he?
 
himmat01
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:48 pm

If PP wants to really change the Indian skies, he should get rid of the clause which makes it obligatory for airlines to fly on unprofitable and social sectors. Spice Jet is soon going to launch IXJ-SXR flight to meet this criteria.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 42):
He is not leaving anytime soon... is he

Not in the near Future though.

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 43):
he should get rid of the clause which makes it obligatory for airlines to fly on unprofitable and social sectors

If there was Voluntary coverage of the NE Areas,then there would be no need of this clause.No one wants to fly in a loss.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cricket
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:10 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):
Spice Jet is soon going to launch IXJ-SXR flight to meet this criteria.

SJR is actually a rather profitable sector - its the security (which is needed) that is the killer. If airlines had there way - DEL and BOM would be overwhelmed by now. As it is 60% of all traffic is to these two cities - if Cat II or Cat III routes weren't there you would have 90% traffic between these two stations.
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 45):

Hey.That qoute was by Himmat01 not me.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 45):
As it is 60% of all traffic is to these two cities

All the more need for a lager capacity Aircraft,Although Timings matter.
regds
MEL
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mrniji
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 43):
If PP wants to really change the Indian skies, he should get rid of the clause which makes it obligatory for airlines to fly on unprofitable and social sectors.

This is, in my eyes, a VERY, VERY, VERY BAD and BACKWARD idea:

- it can be good for an economy as a whole to serve unprofitable but economic valuable sectors. Operational loss does not mean that the flights do not make sense at all

- imagine the railways did the same.. meaning 50 % +++ of India would loose any connection

- there is a need to offer connections in the interest of India as a whole. Disconnecting the North East, Andaman and Nicobar just because flights don't make profits is a testimony how the run for black figures can impair any progress beyond the economic one

- it is unfair that only IC should serve such areas. Bad practices prevail in the economy, and there is a need to "deregulate" (i.e. abolish) them - entrepreneurs first act in THEIR OWN interest, and not in the one of their country. However, I agree that there are large spillovers of benefits in the long term

I agree that the system now can be debated., I myself am in a favor for "competitive bidding" for subsidies on routes that are economically not profitable. However, this is not possible at this stage because the players are not equal yet. In the long term, we can talk about this, but the system as such is fine, and I hope that the same principle will be applied on international routes, i.e. privates required to offer about 10 % of seats in secondary markets beyond the UK-US-Gulf thingy, as Italy etc.. However, if this happens, privates need access to the Gulf also, as the system would be unfair.

Bottom line: in my opinion, you made a proposition without elaborating on the background and questions as WHY the system is like it is. On the otehr side, you have brought up an interesting question worth debating!  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
stealthpilot
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 47):
and I hope that the same principle will be applied on international routes

On the issue of domestic routes i kind of agree with you, but international obligations? Could you expand on that idea please thanks?
-Nikhil
eP007
 
mrniji
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RE: How Praful Patel Has Changed Indian Skies

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 48):
but international obligations? Could you expand on that idea please thanks?

Sure. Same as you have domestic routes that might be loss-making but good for the economy as a whole, you have such routes in international secondary (or tertiary) markets. Take Brazil for instance. Flights MIGHT be (they don't have to, if 5th freedom is explored) unprofitabel, but India might benefit from more trade, better relations etc.. you could either

- have a similar arrangement with 10 % seats in such markets as obligation
- or grant airlines who operate n such routes the 1st choice for attractive bilat slots in primary markets. f.i. if 9W agrees to operate to GRU, they could be given priority for new LHR slots (I know there is a quasi-open sky. however, "prime time slots" at LHR arer hardly available ), or DXB or whatsoever.. hence you could do a different bargain to expand India's civil aviation sector in "remore" markets, that might be even win-making in the future and that benefit India in the long-term.. you only need the correct policies, as opposed to blind liberalism and the "magical" free market forces alone, as it was suggested by the initiator of this subtopic
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)

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