planesailing
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Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:55 am

In last weeks issue of Flight International, it had a list of passenger numbers for 2005.

Coming up top was Delta, with 110million passengers, with 5.3% growth.

I find it amazing that for an airline carrying so many passengers, with obvious loyalty, that they can be in debt by so much.

Obviously, I understand the logic of economics, but for an airline with that amount of opportunity and means to make money, it must be a pretty dire situation over there to be recording such losses.
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:01 am

With pilots making a large salary compared to others (even after the cuts), not doing a good job of hedging gas futures, a large staff that is not cross-trained in multiple areas (Like Citrus or WN), and many other things it kind of makes sense. Plus, you know the old saying...Even to go to Hell you have to connect through Atlanta. Hopefully they will turn it around. Even then I use them on domestic trips and SkyTeam, or at least a SkyMiles partner, internationally.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
planesailing
Posts: 563
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
Hopefully they will turn it around.

If they cut the costs then at least they have a large loyal customer base from which to start making money from.
 
panamair
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
I find it amazing that for an airline carrying so many passengers, with obvious loyalty, that they can be in debt by so much.

Not surprising at all since many of these people are each paying $99 to fly from NY to LA or $69 one-way between NY and Florida...
 
Delta4eva
Posts: 242
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
Coming up top was Delta, with 110million passengers, with 5.3% growth.

If I recall correctly, these numberq reflect the number of people on every flight. This means that a passenger traveling to Florida, and passes through ATL, then they would be counted twice, upon each boarding. I think this is why WN is up there too because so many people on WN pass through multiple boardings, in other words having more than one stop. DL relies heavily on their hub operations to transport people. Even so, DL still has a loyal FF base and boards an impressive number of people each year.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
planesailing
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 4):
This means that a passenger traveling to Florida, and passes through ATL, then they would be counted twice, upon each boarding.

I think that is fair enough though. You would count a person on a return flight twice. I would imagine an aircraft change if you are flying for instance JFK-ATL-MCO, therefore you are in effect on two seperate flights.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 4):
I think this is why WN is up there too because so many people on WN pass through multiple boardings

71 million passengers for WN.

Infact the 4 bankrupt US airlines all come in the top 11!
 
deltagator
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 3):
$69 one-way between NY and Florida...

Ahh...The Kosher Klipper route for the snowbirds. (Please don't let the flame war begin. It's just a nickname.)

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 2):
If they cut the costs then at least they have a large loyal customer base from which to start making money from.

They already make a ton of money off of me and my company. They need to cut the costs and raise the service level a wee bit (and maybe hire some hotty stewardesses!) Despite the cutbacks they will keep my service since they do a halfway decent job, get me upgraded to First, and offer the most nonstops from home here in ATL. If I ever move away from the hub I might consider another airline but even then they would have to make a good case for it.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
I find it amazing that for an airline carrying so many passengers, with obvious loyalty, that they can be in debt by so much.

You can thank an over dependence on the high-CASM RJs (big big mistake on DLs part), no fuel hedges, and to some degree high pilot costs (when compared to the competition).

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
Plus, you know the old saying...Even to go to Hell you have to connect through Atlanta.

And to think, they continue to build ATL and shrink CVG. Doesn't make sense.
Tailwinds!!!
 
deltagator
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):
And to think, they continue to build ATL and shrink CVG. Doesn't make sense.

Economies of scale to some degree. But I see your point with CVG and its shrinking. I think DL may end up as ATL and SLC for hubs along with JFK and LAX as hopping off points for international flights. MCO will continue to be a focus city for the Mouse House and they will code share with SkyTeam partners for other access to cities and hubs.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):
You can thank an over dependence on the high-CASM RJs (big big mistake on DLs part), no fuel hedges, and to some degree high pilot costs (when compared to the competition).

Amazing how those numbers on RJs looked so good a few years ago and now a complete 180.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
db373
Posts: 228
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):
And to think, they continue to build ATL and shrink CVG. Doesn't make sense.

Doesn't make sense? Shrinking where they're hurting the most doesn't make sense? CVG has low O&D and mostly relies on connecting traffic. Atlanta on the other hand has a large O&D market, and relies heavily on that as well as connections. What exactly doesn't make sense to you?
Keep Delta My Delta
 
deltagator
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 9):
CVG has low O&D and mostly relies on connecting traffic.

I forgot that small but vital statistic. Very true. But it is still a nice hub to fly through and a peaceful airport versus the craziness of ATL sometimes.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 9):
Shrinking where they're hurting the most doesn't make sense? CVG has low O&D and mostly relies on connecting traffic. Atlanta on the other hand has a large O&D market, and relies heavily on that as well as connections. What exactly doesn't make sense to you?

Still doesn't make sense. Sure one would expect higher O&D at ATL as the Atlanta metro area is much bigger than the Cincinnati metro area, but ATL probably has lower yeilds as DL is facing feirce competition from AirTran. On the connecting traffic basis, I would have to say that on a percentage of connecting traffic ATL is much higher than in any other part of DL's network. So it doesn't make sense that they would downsize CVG and move traffic through ATL. For those who live in the northeast and are traveling west, or visa versa, connecting in ATL is very inconvenient. If DL wants to focus on higher yeilding domestic markets, this is were logic makes sense they focus, rather than the lower yeilding, highly competitive east coast corridor. Further, ATL is very prone to weather and ATC delays, even though there has been some improvement with the de-peaking. So the logic of focusing such a significant portion of connecting traffic on ATL, doesn't make sense.

Finally, one point of interest. At one point in time, CVG was known as DL's most profitable hub. Than came the massive influx of RJs, which drove costs sky high. So I would venture to say that the recent profitability issues with CVG is not due to the percentage of connecting vs. O&D, but rather some very bad decisions by DL in the past, and its over dependency on the RJs.
Tailwinds!!!
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting Planesailing (Thread starter):
I find it amazing that for an airline carrying so many passengers, with obvious loyalty, that they can be in debt by so much.

Obviously, I understand the logic of economics, but for an airline with that amount of opportunity and means to make money, it must be a pretty dire situation over there to be recording such losses.

Amount of opportunity? What are you talking about?

We are charging less than it costs to transport the vast majority of our customers. We have to do that to compete on price with other airlines that have lower operating costs. If we to charge profitable prices, our aircraft would be empty and the losses would be even greater than they already are. You mention loyalty. Loyalty in this country is pretty much based on price.

As these lower cost airlines have grown in size, we have been forced to offer more and more seats at below cost (for us) prices.

Until we can get our unit costs in line with these lower cost competitors, we will continue to hemorrhage cash.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
deltagator
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 12):
Loyalty in this country is pretty much based on price.

To an extent yet. But there are plenty of folks out there like me who remain very brand loyal. I buy Edge shaving gel over the Target brand because SC Johnson makes a better product that just happens to cost more. I do buy Target contact lens cleaner because it is the same as the name brand to me.
But I fly Delta, even at higher prices than AirTran, because they have more routes, better schedule, take care of me when flights get cancelled or delayed, and generally just do a good job. Wasn't it Meatloaf that said 2 out of 3 ain't bad?

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 12):
Until we can get our unit costs in line with these lower cost competitors, we will continue to hemorrhage cash.

Very well stated. I wish we had a magic cure to fix it all. If only we could find a way to fix the system and provide service equivalent to many foreign carriers. Unfortunately I believe those days might be gone.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
planesailing
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 12):
Amount of opportunity? What are you talking about?

If Delta cut their costs, so that the prices werent below costs, then a profit would be made.

If they continued on the same pricing strategy, they would have 110million people to make money from.

That is the opportunity.
 
motif1
Posts: 271
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:21 am

I have a question out of sheer curiosity.

Two weeks ago I flew BOS-DCA on a 40 seat CRJ-200s.

Here's a breakdown of my fare:
Fare: $156.28
Tax: $30.62
Total: $186.90


My questions is if this fare was below cost.

My outbound (DL5350 N468CA)


My return (DL5348 - N494CA)



Cheers!

Motif1

P.S. I want to fly direct BOS-IND on Nov 29. US quotes almost $500!!!

How could that be? On an ERJ I think.

P.P.S. Forgot to mention the loads
BOS-DCA was 100% full
DCA-BOS - I saw only one empty seat.

[Edited 2005-10-26 21:26:59]
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 14):
If Delta cut their costs, so that the prices werent below costs, then a profit would be made.

It's not so easy to do.

Our labor costs are so much higher than low cost carriers mainly because our employees have many years of experience and are paid to reflect that. The low cost carriers are relatively new, thus their employees are much lower on the pay scales than at Delta.

We also have huge costs associated with the larger aircraft we operate.

I agree that it's a big mess, and that the company needs to be restructured. But it is very a very complicated task.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
MiCorazonAzul
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 3):
Not surprising at all since many of these people are each paying $99 to fly from NY to LA or $69 one-way between NY and Florida...

and all just to compete with us. Unfortunately for them, they can't afford to have such low-fares....that's why they are in such bad financial conditions.

Getting rid of that "sorry excuse for an partner airline" would also help Delta out.....
Live for Today.....tomorrow is NOT guaranteed.
 
deltaguy767
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RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:07 am

Call me an idiot here but can someone please explain to me what you guys are talking about when you say O&D traffic? Also I think that once DL emerges from BK they will be able to compete better with the general aviation marketplace as they will expand through their international hubs @ JFK, ATL, and CVG possibly even BOS with their new terminal. I also believe once DL re-evaluates their need for 757's they can put more metal into the Song fleet and expand. Hopefully they will be able to repaint their scheme back to the WIDGET!!!!

From BDL  wave 
DeltaGuy767
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
MiCorazonAzul
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 18):
Call me an idiot here but can someone please explain to me what you guys are talking about when you say O&D traffic?

"origin and destination" traffic, meaning a passenger that originates in a city and the next stop is their destination, no connection basically. A person travelling from RSW to JFK is considered O&D while someone flying on us from RSW TO LAS connecting via JFK is NOT O&D.
Live for Today.....tomorrow is NOT guaranteed.
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 18):
Call me an idiot here but can someone please explain to me what you guys are talking about when you say O&D traffic?

O&D = Origin and Destination. Basically refers to passenger traffic that begins or ends at that station. So basically, ATL O&D means traffic that either leaves from ATL or heads to ATL as a destination, not traffic that is connecting thru ATL.
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 18):
Hopefully they will be able to repaint their scheme back to the WIDGET!!!!

Do you read Mike Straka's Grrr! column on foxnews.com? You and me both should be nominated for his "Stupid Little Dreamer" award for our desire to get the Widget back.

Viva La Widget!
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
deltaguy767
Posts: 634
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:32 am

RE: Deltas Passenger Figures

Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:27 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
O&D = Origin and Destination. Basically refers to passenger traffic that begins or ends at that station. So basically, ATL O&D means traffic that either leaves from ATL or heads to ATL as a destination, not traffic that is connecting thru ATL.



Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 19):
"origin and destination" traffic, meaning a passenger that originates in a city and the next stop is their destination, no connection basically. A person travelling from RSW to JFK is considered O&D while someone flying on us from RSW TO LAS connecting via JFK is NOT O&D.

Thanks guys.

From BDL,  wave 
DeltaGuy767
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!

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