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lightsaber
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:59 pm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1130...082143.html?mod=home_whats_news_us

This article surprised me:

Quote:

Delta Air Lines is considering a plan to eliminate its Song discount-airline unit, but the carrier would draw lessons from its experience with Song to spruce up its primary flights with satellite-television screens and other popular amenities.

later in the article

Quote:

Song workers already have been told that Delta plans to merge their employee roster and seniority list back into Delta's, which would be one of the first steps toward eliminating Song. Delta executives aren't considering abandoning the two-class service now used on Delta planes, since it helps to lure higher-revenue business travelers and other passengers eager to use frequent-flier miles to upgrade to first-class seats. Song's one-class service has worked mostly because the unit concentrates on leisure routes.

Lightsaber
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LongbowPilot
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:17 pm

Well, sounds like DL is going to bring in Song for CH11, maybe after CH11, they will release it back to itself. I mean it really is nothing more than a PAINT JOB, and re-alocation of aircraft. They probably will still be serving the same routes, just allowing the equipment to be used on other routes, not SONG specific... Makes Sense... Kudos to DL!
 
BestWestern
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:36 pm

For me, Song is the future of DL... Comfortable seating, modern design, PTV, quality buy on board etc.

I wonder if Delta doing something as radical as eliminating First class, and go 100% song economy product (sold as Delta obviously) could be a good step towards becoming solvent again... they have so much to do to overcome the 5.2bn loss last year.

By doing this, Delta would have a significant competitive advantage against American and United for the vast majority of their customers who can never expect an upgrade. A negative would be alienating some frequent flyers who expect their upgrade for nothing now.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
jmets18
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:58 pm

can you post the whole article...
 
ltbewr
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:05 pm

Why should we surprised by this? How many times have 'airlines within airlines' failed at all majors. Except for shuttle flights, those less than 1.5 hours, you need 2 class service to have the income from the 1st/Biz class to make a profit. You also still have the high labor and operational cost structures at majors at the AWA's, the sources of the financial crises at legacy airlines. I do hope that some of the IFE, food ideas are carried over to DL to improve that service.
 
dutchjet
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:13 pm

Firstly, consider that the WSJ is not always entirely accurate when it comes to commercial aviaiton matters - that being said, I am sure that DL continues to evaluate the financial performance of its entire operation, and DL is certainly trying to determine if the Song product makes sense, making money and provides a competitve advantage on the lower-yeild/LCC competitive routes that Song flies.

On one hand, Song is a good product that pax seems to like - and most observers think that the Song product is more competitive than the standard DL product. On the other hand, Song is stuck with the basic DL cost structure (which is getting lower so maybe its not an issue) and Song flies highly competitive lower fare routes where it is difficult to make a profit. That Song lacks a first class cabin is a major issue for loyal DL customers - it is an issue on the transcon routes for example, there is a market that would prefer F class whether by paying for it or upgrade possibilities. The decision concerning the future of Song will be a difficult one for DL management.

The conclusion may be that the Song product becomes the basis for the standard DL mainline domestic product, and the Delta name is re-introduced on the Song routes. DL has invested in the Song brand, it would be a shame to now dump Song, but the Delta name is the more important product brand to protect.
 
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:33 pm

Quoting Jmets18 (Reply 3):
can you post the whole article...

I'm trying to respect the A.net interpretation of copyright fair use. Posting the whole article usually results in a thread being deleted... (or at least that post)

The rest of the article just notes how DL passengers like the in flight entertainment, Song has about the same load factor as DL mainline, and how having a discount "unit" with better amenities than the mainline product is creating marketing problems. It also notes that it cost $65 million to launch song.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
Why should we surprised by this? How many times have 'airlines within airlines' failed at all majors. Except for shuttle flights, those less than 1.5 hours, you need 2 class service to have the income from the 1st/Biz class to make a profit.

While I agree DL needs to return the 1st class, I would argue that on the routes DL employs SONG that the 1st class cabin wasn't generating revenue but was rather being used to reward frequent fliers. Its a good thing to keep the FF happy. But lets call a spade a spade and not pretend all routes generate premium revenue.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Firstly, consider that the WSJ is not always entirely accurate when it comes to commercial aviaiton matters

True, but I consider their errors of the "honest type," where as many "industry rags" have an agenda. The WSJ tends to get the business case questions correct; I can forgive errors in reporting "industry minutia."

I agree and hope that the Song product is migrated to DL mainline. My question is how will this carry over to the RJ product? As I've posted before, I believe RJ's are being used on twice the routes that the small jets are viable on.

Lightsaber
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GSPSPOT
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:49 pm

By all accounts I've read or heard, Song is successful. Certainly, the pax love it. Why would a struggling airline want to eliminate one of the few innovations it's had in the past 30 years? That's the kind of thing it NEEDS to attract pax. You don't CUT your way to success or greatness, you provide a SUPERIOR PRODUCT.
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InTheSky74
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:13 pm

New York Magazine had an article recently that started that analysts believe Song lost $58 million last year.... so it's not successful for Delta. People I have spoken to at Song have said the same thing - they don't feel Delta is making money at Song.

Anyway - can someone post the full article? I'd love to read it.

Rob
 
InTheSky74
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:27 pm

Here's another article that is free to read.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9849149/

Rob
 
N801NW
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:29 pm

Here is the official PR:

Delta Announces New Domestic Long-haul Song Service

-- Airline to merge Song into Delta service
 
Boeing757/767
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:34 pm

Now that it's official -- what will happen to the largely leisure routes after next May, like BDL to Florida? RJs, routes dropped?
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
HAJFlyer
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:37 pm

Any ideas on what impact the Delta decision will this have on TED ? I could imagine that this should allow TED to capture a larger share of the leisure market between FL and the northeast.
 
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ERJ170
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:43 pm

I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without.. I say Kudos and will be happy if they bring the Song elements to other stations through DL mainline. I personally would like to see 3 tiers of the Song-esque aircrafts.. the 757, the 738, and the E70.. especially on routes to such leisure destinations as Florida, Caribbean, Colorado, and Southern California...
Aiming High and going far..
 
gokmengs
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without..

I completely agree with you on that, I'm a DL platinum medallion and although I liked song a lot I can understand FF's complaining about lack of first class or priority boarding etc. I missed that when flying song too. Now that DL has tested the product why not combine the best of both worlds and create a superior product that caters both to high yielding business pax(front cabin) and leisure traveller(coach) and still ofer what both liked in the song service solid IFE etc.(I'm hoping they will still offer great food for purchase too) IMO this is the biggest and most significant transformation DL has done in many many years and I like it.
Also don't forget this will alow them to efficiently swap the widebodies for international expansion.
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UGA777
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:57 pm

The Atlanta Journal Constitution is reporting that Song will be shut down by May 2006 and all aircraft will be brought back to mainline.

http://www.ajc.com/hp/content/shared...ap/Finance_General/Delta_Song.html
 
panamair
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:03 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without

Well, it was an expensive way to do it...it's a no brainer that people will like having an individual TV at their seat (look at the sheer number of threads on a.net concerning PTVs)

That being said, I guess better late than never....this should markedly improve DL's product offering domestically and bring back some of the FF base. From the cost perspective, the proposed cuts ($3 billion by end of 2007) should make up for some of the loss in seats for sale (about 19 seats per 757). Presumably, they would make up for some of this by selling higher fares (than Song) in the F cabin. Before DL mainline disappeared from transcons, with the advent of Simplifares dropping one-way First transcons down to about $600, there was an increase in the number of people actually paying these "A" fares. Now with Song, even if you want to pay $400 or $500 one-way to receive a better seat, you can't as there isn't even that option.
 
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BNE
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:31 pm

Well I wonder what Jetblue think of this;

The thread heading has been modified to reflect that the paper got it right and DL confirmed what it was doing.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
1MillionFlyer
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:32 pm

I bet they are having a party at B6 today
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Pope
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:36 pm

I think this is a HUGE mistake. I flew Song for the first time a couple of months ago (MCO-BOS-MCO) and loved the service. I was so impressed that when I had to go out to LAX, I decided to fly Song and forgo an automatic DL Platinum Medallion upgrade to first on its mainline service.

I just got back on from LAX on Wednesday and was again very impressed with the Song concept. The personal TV's, the food menu, and the extra inch of space make Song a FAR superior product than DL's mainline product in either class of service.

The planes were full both ways.

On board I watch a PPV movie, purchased lunch and a snack and was able to catch a bit of a nap.

DL had won me back through Song and now they're cutting it. I'm going over to United and taking advantage of its economy+. DL simply doesn't know what to do. They're desparate and seem to be a ship without a rudder.

The DL first class product is a joke. I would estimate that at least 75% of the people in the front are their on upgrades so the argument that it generates additional revenue for them is unsupported in fact.

Everyone at my company I've spoken to says that they would prefer a single class 33 inch pitch seat with IFE and an onboard for pay meal service over having to struggle to get upgrades when they fly.

I think DL's missed the mark with this one.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
commavia
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:37 pm

Yet another confirmation that "airlines within airlines" don't make business sense. Smart move Delta -- don't just seperate a little piece off and try and make that work, fix the whole airline.
 
azstar
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:39 pm

Can Uni-Ted be far behind?
 
richierich
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without..

WHile I would agree with this statement, the fact that Song has been nothing but a money pit for Delta makes me think otherwise. It was not genius, unless you consider losing millions of dollars to be highly intelligent.

I know my buds OttoPyltt and NRK will be on here later to defend Delta to the hilt (whatever, I am over it!). Let me be clear though: at this point, integrating the Song experiment into mainline mixed-class service might be Delta's best bet. Keep the Y-class slummers happy (or happier, anyway) and still offer a Biz and First alternative.

As for the past, it was never the Song product that I always second guessed. It was the finances behind such an endeavor. Low load factors (do we have to go through this again?) on low yield routes with a high CASM aircraft do not equal great profits. Song was and is unprofitable in its current format, now more than ever. Filling 120 seats on a 199 seat aircraft to Florida from JFK with avg $140 fares is not going to get it done (I don't have actual current LFs or fares, but I doubt I am too far off). If someone from Song can provide numbers to the contrary, I'm all ears (OP).

We shall see what happens. Maybe Song will stick around and expand like the last time I made a prediction. (Maybe that will just dig Delta's grave a little further.) But expanding the product and placing it on mixed-class planes is really proof that Song alone is not the answer.

I know OttoPyltt and NRK have read this article (it was in USAToday also) and I know they thought of me when they read it.  Smile
None shall pass!!!!
 
cgnnrw
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:47 pm

I've never flown Song so I admit I'm no expert on their service but not being an expert never really put many A.neters off then has it????  Wink

I think DL could combine the best of Song in their mainline service to key business and leisure destinations. I understand the high-milage FFs want to have a bit more service as reward for their loyalty. Why not give them the extra legroom, free PTVs and improved meals for free and the keep the Song concept in economy. DL could allow the Medallian and FFers to board first since that seems to be so important to many FFers, the could have the chance to choose their favorite seats, priority with luggage, etc. I don't see what the big problem is as far as that goes.

Just my....  twocents 
A330 man.
 
Bicoastal
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:54 pm

It seems to me that United has done it right with Ted. Ted is dedicated to leisure markets with little full fare business and economy fliers. Ted's crew is all United; there's no separate employee list. Designing a product for specific markets (p.s. United and Ted) seems to be a smart move. Song seems to have had an identity crisis...flying to markets that should be higher yield for Delta along with the leisure routes.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
roseflyer
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:56 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 19):
The DL first class product is a joke. I would estimate that at least 75% of the people in the front are their on upgrades so the argument that it generates additional revenue for them is unsupported in fact.



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
By doing this, Delta would have a significant competitive advantage against American and United for the vast majority of their customers who can never expect an upgrade. A negative would be alienating some frequent flyers who expect their upgrade for nothing now.

By eliminating first class on all routes, DL will probably see yields and load factors drop in their BusinessElite on TransAtlantic routes, which is probably one of the most profitable segments of the airline. In order to get the advantage of a full business class cabin, you have to offer domestic first class, otherwise no one will want to fly your airline and they will go elsewhere. You lose in one place to earn it back in another.

If DL wanted to go all economy on domestic flights like certain LCCs, then they would have to find a way to keep their business class cabin full or to find a way to be profitable without it. It would be a radical change similar to how Aer Lingus and Iberia are shifting. Can that model work in the United States where the majority of the traffic is domestic on segments that can add up to over five hours? If DL tries, they will either hit a home run and get back to profitability or get liquidated.

Right now it seems like they are not wanting to do anything that extreme. By improving economy, they hopefully will get more passengers. And to do this in today's world you have to offer more than a prepackaged non perishable food box and a single movie on the overhead cabin IFE.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
ord
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:56 pm

Quoting LongbowPilot (Reply 1):
Well, sounds like DL is going to bring in Song for CH11, maybe after CH11, they will release it back to itself. I mean it really is nothing more than a PAINT JOB, and re-alocation of aircraft.

Song will not be "released" back to itself. The unit will be gone for good. Also, Song is far more than simply a paint job. It has many attributes not found on Delta, such as live TV at every seat, leather interiors (being deployed throughout Delta), buy-on-board food, advance food ordering, extra legroom, etc.
 
BigGSFO
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:59 pm

Well I would like to think this move will raise the bar for the rest of the legacies. Maybe CO and AA can do a similar move at some point, but I have my doubts.

But I agree with the consensus, this is not a surprising move and makes sense. I would imagine Ted might be gone soon although UA seems to be pleased with it and it appears they will exit bankruptcy with it intact. Who knows.
 
Pope
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 25):
In order to get the advantage of a full business class cabin, you have to offer domestic first class,

The problem is that DL's domestic first class product sucks.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
richierich
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:17 pm

Here is the link confirming Song's future (sort of):

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/28/news/fortune500/song_foldin/index.htm
None shall pass!!!!
 
Kahala777
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
Why should we surprised by this? How many times have 'airlines within airlines' failed at all majors.

Song, did not fail, Delta Airlines is turning its entire domestic product into a product that mirrors Song. Of course sans the Song scheme.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 18):
I bet they are having a party at B6 today

Why? Delta Airlines is not going anywhere. Song and its interiors are going to be embellished apon mainline Delta Airlines. Delta will remain, Song will disappear. Delta offers the very same fares as JetBlue.. This is nothing new!

Quoting Pope (Reply 19):
I think this is a HUGE mistake. I flew Song for the first time a couple of months ago (MCO-BOS-MCO) and loved the service. I was so impressed that when I had to go out to LAX, I decided to fly Song and forgo an automatic DL Platinum Medallion upgrade to first on its mainline service.

Why? .... See Above!

Quoting Azstar (Reply 21):
Can Uni-Ted be far behind?

This one is up in the air. One thing is nearly for certain, United Airlines is seriously looking at having TED like interiors in its domestic Economy cabins.

Quoting Pope (Reply 28):
The problem is that DL's domestic first class product sucks

This is a known fact. However, Delta Airlines, has had plans in place for sometime now to revamp and spruce up its premium service on Trans-Con, Trans-Border and Trans-Oceanic flights. What is now Delta Airlines domestic first product, may very well become a domestic business product. Similar examples can be found in Europe. Where airlines do not offer first, they offer a business class.

KAHALA777
 
ord
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:21 pm

On a side note, with around 50 Song aircraft now needing to be repinted back to Delta, I wouldn't be surprised if Delta unveils a new livery within the next year. I was at an aviation conference last week in which Paul Matsen, Delta's top marketing guy, said Delta is getting rid of everything that has to do with the "wavy gravy." He pointed out that the Delta website and many airport ticket counters are some of places where the wavy gravy has already been removed. Delta wants the wavy gravy off the planes, and with around 50 Song aircraft being converted back to Delta the next 12 months may be the time to start.
 
FLAIRPORT
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:24 pm

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 11):
Now that it's official -- what will happen to the largely leisure routes after next May, like BDL to Florida? RJs, routes dropped?

I need to know this as well. DL files 2 of 3 nonstop flights FLL-BDL and its my only way to get to college...the flights are 100% full most of the year.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
DLPMMM
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 28):
The problem is that DL's domestic first class product sucks.

If you would care to read the article, they are going to add a 1st class to the 48 Song 757s with PTVs (I assume since Y will have PTVs) plus another 52 aircraft as well. These aircraft will be used on flights over 1750 miles.

I find the domestic 1st class seats on DL much more comfortable than the "business class" seats on most EU carriers.

That leaves only the food and service levels to be disclosed.

IMO DL has always always been among the best in service.

As far as food goes, it is a no win game on airlines. If they provide food, most people will bitch about the quality. If they don't offer food, they will bitch about the lack of food.

Overall, I say Kudos DL. I wish you would have done it sooner.
 
richierich
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 26):
Also, Song is far more than simply a paint job. It has many attributes not found on Delta, such as live TV at every seat, leather interiors (being deployed throughout Delta), buy-on-board food, advance food ordering, extra legroom, etc.

I agree ORD. Which is why I think you'll see these things put into mainline Delta over the next few years (if they have that long). I think they need to do this as this is the way Y-class domestic air travel is going in the USA. Whether or not it will be called "Song class" remains to be seen.
None shall pass!!!!
 
FLAIRPORT
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 30):
Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 18):
I bet they are having a party at B6 today

Why? Delta Airlines is not going anywhere. Song and its interiors are going to be embellished apon mainline Delta Airlines. Delta will remain, Song will disappear. Delta offers the very same fares as JetBlue.. This is nothing new!

And now song...er, Delta...will be able to counter B6 anywhere.

I'm all for it as long as the options now available on song (TV, music, trivia, and the food) stay and as long as they still fly FLL-BDL.

Also, if I may make a suggestion, can the new paint job be "retro-Delta" with the widget? just a thought.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
airbazar
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:38 pm

Song and Delta are one and the same, save a few differences in amenities. More importanly, both have high labor costs, and neither is profitable. also, neither is a LCC. I believe the Song model will be the way of the future for Delta post BK, after they eliminate their high labor costs and bring it on par with the LCC's. In fact that will be true for all the legacy carriers, sooner or later. Better amenities, simpler fare structure, lower labor costs.
 
DLCnxgptjax
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:38 pm

Some people on here are saying that it is a bad move for Delta to do this because their domestic product isn't that great. Although the song name will be gone, if I read both the PR and the replys on here correctly, Delta is going to convert CERTAIN domestic mainline flights into the song type product which would include PTV's and buy on board meals. Not just get rid of the concept completely, so people will still be able to enjoy the comfort of song flights on certain Delta mainline flights. Is that not correct?
 
Pope
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 30):
What is now Delta Airlines domestic first product, may very well become a domestic business product. Similar examples can be found in Europe.

The problem is that this isn't Europe. I'm sure that DL's product exceeds the standard intra-China F/C product but that's not the market they're participating in. DL's F domestic product is substandard. They can change it's name and call it business, they can change the logo they can fold Song into mainline, but none of that changes the fact that DL is now an also ran in terms of domestic service and quickly falling to the back of the pack.

While clearly DL's domestic service is superior to Southwest, I don't think it's fair to say that it's superior to JetBlue. As much as people say that they're looking for good service, the reality is that they are voting with their pocket book. If your costs are out of line and you have no ability to command a premium for your "service" (whether or not that service differential actuall exists - and I would argue that many LCC provide better service than Delta) the future is going to be a problem.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Cadet57
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:41 pm

I dont think this is a great idea, wont it cost more just to repaint, re alocate and just generally bring Song back into delta?

I'll miss song alot my first flight on them was BOS-MCO-BOS and it was excellent, it was right after the launch so i diddnt get a ptv..  Sad , but the service was great, i got a game boy to use, and a really great seat in a 752... great bird. I'll sure miss that snot-green on white... *sigh*
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
BOSPMV
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:50 pm

I am not sure if this has been discussed yet, but my question is what will happen to the routes that Song serves? Will they be cut down? Or cut completely? Also, whats happening with the aircraft? I realize DL wants Song to to be a prototype for their future product, but what is to happen with the current Song fleet?
 
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STT757
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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 12):
TED to capture a larger share of the leisure market between FL and the northeast.

Ted has no presence in the Northeast.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
aanyc
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 3:51 am

Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:01 am

Song was an incredible product. I commuted back and forth from MCO/JFK. Once again Delta found a way to screw these hard working employees of Song. Enticed them over to Song with the promise of seniority while offering lower wages and benefits. Then after all their hard work in building this product, they stab them in the back yet again. The customer service awards they received was due to the great service the agents and flight attendants offered the customer. Not because of the managerial skills of Song/Delta management. While I am a big advocate of organized labor. I do see some issues with "some" of the more senior flight attendants. All Delta flight attendants had the chance to work for Song. After the Song work group did all the hard work for less money. The Delta flight attendants kicked and screamed because they wanted the flying back. Delta of course gave in and took advantage of the Song flight attendants. I guess it is true what Song stands for "Same Old Nasty Girls".
 
aanyc
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 3:51 am

Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:05 am

With the majority domestic first class seats being used by frequent fliers who have upgraded, how does Delta or any carrier make money on it? I have asked this question many times at AA and do not get a response. If you provide a top notch product like Song with an all coach configuration, it would seem that you would make more money with that.
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 38):
DL's F domestic product is substandard. They can change it's name and call it business, they can change the logo they can fold Song into mainline, but none of that changes the fact that DL is now an also ran in terms of domestic service and quickly falling to the back of the pack

So let me get this right, you are saying that the following airlines and their domestic First Class product is superior to Delta Airlines?

- America West Airlines (to be US Airways)
- Northwest Airlines

Quoting Pope (Reply 38):
While clearly DL's domestic service is superior to Southwest, I don't think it's fair to say that it's superior to JetBlue.

Song is on the same level as Jet Blue. Song, has two huge advantages to Jet Blue. Delta Sky Miles - SkyTeam, and Buy on Board.

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 40):
I am not sure if this has been discussed yet, but my question is what will happen to the routes that Song serves? Will they be cut down?

Los Angeles, and San Francisco are not going to see to many reductions. Look for the bulk of reductions to be the NorthEast to Florida corridor.

KAHALA777
 
aircanada014
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:24 pm

Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:07 am

Don't forget when Air Canada was in bankruptcy protection they too introduce Tango and made it seperate carrier then few years later they decide to emerge Tango with the mainline but AC will continue offering Tango fares. So Delta used AC's idea bring Song back to mainline fleet and probably will also use Song's fare structure on their mainline fare structure like AC did.
 
PVD757
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:08 am

I'm going to assume that the "over 50 more aircraft" to be converted to "Song Service" will equate to the entire 752 fleet. This makes sense to me. They'll use the 752's on routes 1750 miles + and on the high demand routes (ATL-Florida). The 752 is perfect for this mission and having the entire 752 fleet fitted the same (PTV's, leather, etc.) it offer DL the flexibility to route the aircraft with maximum efficiency. It will also allow the 738's currently on the longer routes to be brought back to the hubs to replace what used to be 752 routes to regain capacity. Besides the transcons the new network will look like a lot of this:

BOS-SLC 752 (1750 mile + route)
SLC-PDX 738

and

PVD-ATL M88/738
ATL-MCO 752 (high demand route)

everything out west to ATL/CVG will become 752 and east coast cities to SLC will be 752s as well. BOS/NYC transcons will also be 752's.

I kind of like what DL is thinking here. Smart use of assets.
 
UA744Flagship
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 1999 1:55 pm

Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:13 am

I like this strategy, although the 'international invasion' strategy that is causing this reconfiguration seems a little overboard.

It's a very interesting strategy. Effectively they are putting their all-around best product (quality BOB, top-grade IFE, stylish cabin crew, upgraded cabin environment) on their longest domestic routes, kind of creating a hybrid experience between jetBlue (IFE, stylishness), Ted (BOB), and p.s. (upgraded cabins, though no long-haul type seating, still better than most of everything domestically). Very intriguing, so mix-and-match it might even work.

Hindsight says they should have started converting the domestic widebodies 3 years ago and turning the 757s into this new Delta/Song combo. They had to create a new livery, new Kate Spade uniforms, and candy colored seats for Song, and now they have to change the livery back again to Delta, adopt the new Delta uniforms, and adopt the uniformly colored DL seats.

Now would be a good time to transition away from DeltaFlot.


As to this having a bearing on Ted.

  • Ted carries very little NE to FL traffic. While there are lots of connections from our IAD UAX flights to FL bound Ted flights out of IAD, our market share of the NE-FL is insignificant compared to B6, DL, US, FL, even AA.

  • This will have no bearing on the decision to roll Ted back up into mainline. Ted is essentially a different aircraft configuration (sans F class) with different branding/marketing communications to brainwash the masses into thinking its as cheap as the other LCCs. In reality, Ted's fare structure has slowly started to act just like mainline, while the BOB experience is the same as well.

    There's not much from Ted that could be applied to mainline (no new interiors, uniforms, and most importantly, no better IFE option), and the operational stuff [turnaround times, dual door boarding, etc.] can be done easily to mainline without rolling Ted back into mainline. Ted wasn't a lab experiment for how to fix UA mainline like Song was for Delta.

    Ted's just there to put more butts in seats, getting more revenue per plane, with the marketing convincing customers that Ted is an LCC.

    Why have a Ted a/c with no F class versus a mainline A320, or even a mainline A320 with no F class?

  • The F class on the mainline 320 in Ted markets would be filled with all upgrade pax anyway (so no revenue premium from having F) and the seats they free up in coach by upgrading really would not inrease revenue as much as simply having many more coach seats to begin with (30 more to be exact)

  • If you have a mainline aircraft with no F class, you have to differentiate the product as it would be different from all other domestic mainline planes. That would lead to more confused expectations and is the lesser of two evils between having an inconsistent mainline product, and a seemingly inconsistent "airline within an airline" product
  • no wire hangers!
     
    Derik737
    Posts: 262
    Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

    Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

    Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:15 am

    One thing to keep in mind is that the PTV system that DL is using for Song costs around $1.5 million per narrowbody aircraft (around 160 seats) just for the hardware. That doesn't include installation costs or the associated cost of maintaining the systems (spares, etc.).

    It would cost over $100 million just for the 737-800 feet at Delta.

    If they can scrounge up the cash, more power to them!
     
    DAYflyer
    Posts: 3546
    Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

    Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline

    Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:15 am

    Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
    For me, Song is the future of DL... Comfortable seating, modern design, PTV, quality buy on board etc.

    I would have thought so too, especially with chapter 11. If I were running DL I would do this exact thing by converting DL to SONG and adding a business cabin to SONG.
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