aeropiggot
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:43 am

Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:57 am

This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site. How can the 787 compete with that sort of bargaining? It also show that Leahy and friend are prepared to do everything they can to blunt the 787 sales success. At those prices the Qantas and Singapore sales campaigns should be very interesting indeed.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...pace/2002588498_boeingsales28.html
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site.

Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...  scratchchin 

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
How can the 787 compete with that sort of bargaining? It also show that Leahy and friend are prepared to do everything they can to blunt the 787 sales success.

Don't base all your conclusions on one questionable source.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
Aither
Posts: 990
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
It also show that Leahy and friend are prepared to do everything they can to blunt the 787 sales success

No you're kidding !
Never trust the obvious
 
slider
Posts: 6805
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:07 am

And cue Airbus VS Boeing thread in 3, 2, 1....  Wink
 
Joost
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:08 am

Well, the Seattle Times has a strong pro-Boeing feeling, so I would not take every word of them as a fact.

How the 787 can compete with that sort of bargaining, well, by offering the same discounts.

As you know, the prices paid by the airlines are effectively almost kept secret. The only thing that is not secret is that nobody pays the list price.

There are always rumours, some of them stronger than others, indicating that:

ANA paid about half the list price for it's 787s
Ryanair paid about half the list price for it's 737NGs
NW paid far below list price for its 787s
Air Canada got a great deal on it's 787/777 deal

And the same goes for Airbus, they offered extremely good deals for:

JetBlue's A320s
easyJet's A319s
All Emirates airplanes
Qatar's A350s

It is very normal for a new model, when you are a launch customer ordering in a large quantity. Often, launch customers pay less but also get less guaranties, like little compensation when the delivery is delayed. And they will also still have to see about reliability, fuel burn. Depending on how all these factors are calculated, prices can be lower.

By the way, the higher your list price is, the more you can 'discount'. The list price for the 787-8 is $125 - $135 Million. Not too much higher than the $85 million mentioned.
 
Slarty
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:23 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:09 am

Already being discussed in:
Boeing To Sell Up To 965 Jets In 05 (by N1786b Oct 28 2005 in Civil Aviation)
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Well, the Seattle Times has a strong pro-Boeing feeling, so I would not take every word of them as a fact.

That's an assumption many people make here on A.net, both in the US and abroad. It's just not backed up by the evidence. They have a dedicated aviation desk to follow Boeing around, since they're so important to the local economy. That doesn't make them a cheerleader though. They've been one of Boeing's harshest critics over the years, and have turned up a lot of dirty laundry through investigative reporting. While they're not Anti-Boeing, calling them Pro-Boeing is also a big distortion. Just because they're located here does not make them a PR publication for Boeing.

[Edit: Changed 'but' to 'both'...makes a lot more sense this way. ]

[Edited 2005-10-28 19:20:38]
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Well, the Seattle Times has a strong pro-Boeing feeling, so I would not take every word of them as a fact.

You're wrong yet again, Joost!!

The Seattle Times is the last newspaper anyone with even half a brain would call pro-Boeing! Where did you get this crap?!!

Ask anyone who works for Boeing and they'll tell you that there is no harsher critic anywhere of Boeing than that publication. Unlike where you live, the media, industry and government are usually at odds with each other here in the U.S.

And also unlike where you live, the average American couldn't care less what happens to Boeing. If the company were to disappear tomorrow, most people here in the U.S. wouldn't know the difference. So, to attempt to portray a news source as some sort of cheerleader for a private industry in my country really shows your ignorance.

Your assertion is truly pathetic.

[Edited 2005-10-28 19:24:06]
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:28 am

Both Boeing & Airbus hand out discounts/heavy discounts depending on the size of the order/customer.

As for the Seattle Times, that is not exactly a Boeing friendly newspaper.....
NO URLS in signature
 
aeropiggot
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:43 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:30 am

Quote:
Slarty: Already being discussed in:

Thanks for pointing that out, I did not see that post, I would refer our discussions over to that forum.

Please see Boeing To Sell Up To 965 Jets In 05 (by N1786b Oct 28 2005 in Civil Aviation)
for further discussions.

Thanks.
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3881
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 1):
Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...

Yes, and I remember vividly when Airbus once claimed that the 737 "is toast". I also remember not too long ago Airbus claiming that the 787 is a desperate move by Boeing and that 330 will compete effectively with just new engines hung on the wings.

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
Ask anyone who works for Boeing and they'll tell you that there is no harsher critic anywhere of Boeing than that publication.

One reason they are harsh is because Boeing is in their own backyard. Given the "investigative reporting" nature of U.S. media, Boeing makes an easy and cheap target to look at for potential scandals.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:39 am

I haven't had many chances to get involved in the negotiations between airlines and airplane manufacturers, however, I do get a chance to see some of the numbers offered... (Great to have friends in the finance industry:-p)

Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard. Ofcourse, the size and type of the order will effect how much discount is given, however, hearing Airbus offering $85 million for A350 seems about right.

When AC ordered 773ERs, Boeing offered in a ball park of ~40% discount. (Ofcourse, I cannot reveal my source, apologize in advance for those who ask)
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
Yes, and I remember vividly when Airbus once claimed that the 737 "is toast". I also remember not too long ago Airbus claiming that the 787 is a desperate move by Boeing and that 330 will compete effectively with just new engines hung on the wings.

I know, but I simply tried to point out one shouldn't take too serious one manufacturer's statements about its rival.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
Ken777
Posts: 9020
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:44 am

It may not be true, but you can be sure that CEOs at airlines buying or looking at the 350 will be asking for the $85m price - especially if their pricing is significantly higher.

Right now profit doesn't matter for the 350 - they have to have sales of the 350 because they have to have the 350 flying in order to compete long term with the 787. Boeing could walk away from the 380 market, but Airbus can't walk away from this market.
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
It may not be true, but you can be sure that CEOs at airlines buying or looking at the 350 will be asking for the $85m price - especially if their pricing is significantly higher.

That's an interesting thought. It's all about tactics. Theoretically that statement could have been made also in order to please shareholders after a lost deal - probably a failed attempt to sell B787s to Emirates. Well, that's just a theory - remember.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 1):
Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site.

Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...

Jetmaster

Very true both sides have made comments, that in hindsight look very silly. Here are a couple of Airbus comments:

The "dream machine," or whatever it's called.... it's a PR man's dream, but an engineer's nightmare. (Leahy 6/03)

The 7E7 is a "Chinese Copy (Forgeard 5/04)
NO URLS in signature
 
A350
Posts: 1010
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site

Thanks a lot for the hint! I have directly used this unique opportunity and ordered my personal A350 for 85 M$ at their online-shop  hyper 

A350
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:00 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard. Ofcourse, the size and type of the order will effect how much discount is given, however, hearing Airbus offering $85 million for A350 seems about right.

When AC ordered 773ERs, Boeing offered in a ball park of ~40% discount. (Ofcourse, I cannot reveal my source, apologize in advance for those who ask)

Thanks for the info, FlyingHippo.

We, as consumers, don't get to buy automobiles, homes or refrigerators at up to 45% off, do we? The pricing strategies that Boeing and Airbus use just seem very strange to me.
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard. Ofcourse, the size and type of the order will effect how much discount is given, however, hearing Airbus offering $85 million for A350 seems about right.

When AC ordered 773ERs, Boeing offered in a ball park of ~40% discount. (Ofcourse, I cannot reveal my source, apologize in advance for those who ask)

Thanks for the info, FlyingHippo.

We, as consumers, don't get to buy automobiles, homes or refrigerators at 35-45% off, do we? The pricing strategies that Boeing and Airbus use just seem very strange to me.
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 15):
Very true both sides have made comments, that in hindsight look very silly. Here are a couple of Airbus comments:

The "dream machine," or whatever it's called.... it's a PR man's dream, but an engineer's nightmare. (Leahy 6/03)

The 7E7 is a "Chinese Copy (Forgeard 5/04)

I know these comments and they were just silly...


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18090
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting A350 (Reply 16):
Thanks a lot for the hint! I have directly used this unique opportunity and ordered my personal A350 for 85 M$ at their online-shop

You paid too much. According to this website, you could get a 787 for $60 million.

http://www.answers.com/topic/boeing-787

 Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:21 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
We, as consumers, don't get to buy automobiles, homes or refrigerators at up to 45% off, do we? The pricing strategies that Boeing and Airbus use just seem very strange to me.

Oh c'mon, no pays the full sticker price for an automobile, there are always dealer discounts, special discounts, this weekend only special discounts....

Pricing complexities for the automobile are strange as well, so much so, that the cost to produce a car is kept very secret....
NO URLS in signature
 
PM
Posts: 4818
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
I remember vividly when Airbus once claimed that the 737 "is toast".

Well, the 737 that Boeing initially pitched against the A320 IS "toast". It was replaced by the 737NG. Would that have happened without Airbus running away with orders Boeing expected to win?
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4763
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
The Seattle Times is the last newspaper anyone with even half a brain would call pro-Boeing! Where did you get this crap?!!

Were the personal insults really necessary?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
Unlike where you live, the media, industry and government are usually at odds with each other here in the U.S.

So wait... first you slam someone for making assumptions based on what we could call prejudice, and then, in the same damn post, you write this???

Pot, meet kettle!

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard.

Actually, on average planes are sold at about 20% below list price (that's the average for Airbus, I'm sure Boeing's is similar), though higher discounts are of course given to strategically important customers and launch customers.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23345
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 24):
Pot, meet kettle!

You mean: Pot, Kettle, Black  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
We, as consumers, don't get to buy automobiles, homes or refrigerators at up to 45% off, do we? The pricing strategies that Boeing and Airbus use just seem very strange to me.

Consumer and business to business markets are completely different. I work in technology sales, and discounts of this magnitude are common and part of business.

Refrigerators don't cost millions of dollars, and aren't manufactured at a 75% gross margin. Airplanes are.

N
 
redflyer
Posts: 3881
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting PM (Reply 23):
Well, the 737 that Boeing initially pitched against the A320 IS "toast". It was replaced by the 737NG. Would that have happened without Airbus running away with orders Boeing expected to win?

True, but then the "toast" comment was made by the world-famous John Leahy in 1994, after Boeing had launched the NG and in response to Boeing's NG marketing push.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard.

You think so? These figures seem a little too big to me. I read that even EasyJet got "only" 30% when they ordered 120 A319. FR is supposed to have gotten the same for their large 738 order.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
When AC ordered 773ERs, Boeing offered in a ball park of ~40% discount. (Ofcourse, I cannot reveal my source, apologize in advance for those who ask)


 eek  40%? Are you sure?? I guess Boeing wanted that order really hard, because they didn't like all these Airbus in AC colors, but 40%???
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 27):
This may be too much for the average cheerleader to understand, but is that Seattle propaganda story a quotation with or without engines?

Presumably with engines. The paper is respected and credible although you elect to deride it as "propaganda" because you do not like the content. As they say, "Don't shoot the messenger." Why don't you write a letter to the editor and level your charge of fabrication. See what happens.

When Northwest launched their Portland-Tokyo flight with the A330-200, a NWA exec was quoted as saying that the airplane cost $80 million which pissed off her bosses and led to a round of uncomfortable "no further comment."

$85 million is well within the realm of possible and probable.

[Edited 2005-10-28 21:13:23]

[Edited 2005-10-28 21:14:01]
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 23):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
The Seattle Times is the last newspaper anyone with even half a brain would call pro-Boeing! Where did you get this crap?!!

Were the personal insults really necessary?

No they weren't. I apologized directly to Joost for this and suggested deletion of my own post.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 23):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
Unlike where you live, the media, industry and government are usually at odds with each other here in the U.S.

So wait... first you slam someone for making assumptions based on what we could call prejudice, and then, in the same damn post, you write this???

Pot, meet kettle!

If you had read what I posted here more carefully, you would have seen that I was actually complimenting the European culture and way of doing things.
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:57 am

Why is forecasting sales being compared and used to usurp creditability of a finding on numbers? Forecasts are broad and can easily be over or under forecast (especially as no one can see the future).

Its very possible Airbus is doing this, now whether this is just or not, well thats for the shareholders to decide.....
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:06 am

Well $85 million for an A350 isn't as big a bargain as the $90 million offered to and accepted by Qantas for its 744 ERs in 2000.

That's business.

Antares
 
Slarty
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:23 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 15):
The 7E7 is a "Chinese Copy (Forgeard 5/04)

I guess in 2004, they weren't really trying to sell much into China?  flamed 
 
TaromA380
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:35 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:22 am

How dares Airbus make discounts ?

Shame !

It's obvious they are trying to hurt Boeing.

I suggest a preventive US strike on TLS factory.

:D
 
N908AW
Posts: 863
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:05 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):

Yes, and I remember vividly when Airbus once claimed that the 737 "is toast". I also remember not too long ago Airbus claiming that the 787 is a desperate move by Boeing and that 330 will compete effectively with just new engines hung on the wings.

Bravo!

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 1):
Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...

Source please? The A320 market is precisely the one Boeing entered the far superior 737 in.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
aeropiggot
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:43 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:37 am

Quote:
TarumA380: How dares Airbus make discounts

No one is saying that you shouldn't give discounts, but Airbus seems to give massive discounts consistently, in an attempt to win market share. I mean they sold the A380 to Singapore Airlines for less than the discounted price for the 744ER (below $90 million) Now is that proof that they will do what ever it takes to win market share???..........at any price!!
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting N908AW (Reply 35):
The A320 market is precisely the one Boeing entered the far superior 737 in.

The "far superior" 737? I think the fact the A320 backlog is longer than the 737 can contest that fact.

N
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4763
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 30):
If you had read what I posted here more carefully, you would have seen that I was actually complimenting the European culture and way of doing things.

Hmmm... Been a bit too hasty there. Where's my portion of crow?  Wink

Quoting N908AW (Reply 35):
Bravo!



Quoting N908AW (Reply 35):
Source please?

So you take the ones Airbus said about Boeing at face value, but the ones Boeing said you don't believe? Bit of a bias there, sonny?

Quoting N908AW (Reply 35):
The A320 market is precisely the one Boeing entered the far superior 737 in.

Um... yeah. By 'the far superior 737' I assume you mean the NG. That one was launched to compete with the A32X after Boeing found out the hard way that there was indeed a market for it. And sales numbers indicate neither is 'far superior' to the other...
 
redflyer
Posts: 3881
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
The "far superior" 737? I think the fact the A320 backlog is longer than the 737 can contest that fact.

I'd be careful with that comment. Do you realize Boeing has thus far this year racked up more 737 sales alone than Airbus' entire product line?

I'm not saying the 737 is better than the 320; I'm just saying there are different ways of looking at statistics to prove a point and what you have just said does not really support your claim.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4763
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 36):
No one is saying that you shouldn't give discounts, but Airbus seems to give massive discounts consistently, in an attempt to win market share.

As I said before, Airbus' average discounts aren't deeper than Boeing's, around 20%. Even if it were, they'd be able to afford it, as their profit margin is higher than Boeing's.

Oh, and they didn't sell SIA A380s for less than $90 million. I've read a lot of rumors on here, and seen a lot of numbers, but that one I've never seen anywhere.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3881
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 40):
Oh, and they didn't sell SIA A380s for less than $90 million. I've read a lot of rumors on here, and seen a lot of numbers, but that one I've never seen anywhere.

I have to agree; I think the number is off by some US$100 million because I thought the number that was tossed around was US$190 million. (Which is still a substantial discount off of the list price of ~US$280 million.)
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:19 am

Quoting N908AW (Reply 35):
Quoting JetMaster (Reply 1):
Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...

Source please? The A320 market is precisely the one Boeing entered the far superior 737 in.

Boeing made a comment like that quite some time ago, it may prove difficult to find a link.
NO URLS in signature
 
art
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard.



Quoting Antares (Reply 32):
Well $85 million for an A350 isn't as big a bargain as the $90 million offered to and accepted by Qantas for its 744 ERs in 2000.

Sorry to refer to the A380 but there has been much handwringing on a.net over Airbus selling the A380 (allegedly) to some launch customers at a 47%+ discount. Am I now to believe that Airbus was not, as reported by many, committing financial hari-kiri?
 
aeropiggot
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:43 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:14 am

Ok here is some information I found on the A380 launch prices, 90 million to 100 million might have been on the low side, but no far from the actual figure. See the article below:

http://www.travelbiz.com.au/articles/e8/0c02efe8.asp

Yes, Boeing did pay for the research, but the researchers claim that their work was totally independent......come on these guys are academics, and to fake their results would be academic fraud, a serious crime in academia.

The launch prices these guys found was USD144 million to USD150 million. Compared to Airbus listed price today of 295 million...gentlemen, that is more than a 50% discount.  

I have read other publications that claim a figure closer to 100 million, I cannot locate at the moment, but will post the link when I find it.

[Edited 2005-10-29 03:17:49]
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:16 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 45):

The launch prices these guys found was USD144 million to USD150 million.

US$ 150 million was roughly € 175 million at that time.
US$ 295 million is about € 225 million now.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:00 pm

It looks as if Airbus is following the same 'strategy' with the A350 as they employed for the A380 - do whatever it takes to get orders on the books, even offering to sell at cost or below. Considering that the thing is going to cost $5B. or more to develop, and that there will likely be five years of cost inflation before any A350s can be delivered, it seems to be a crazily risky approach.

Things are different this time, anyway - Airbus are trying to attract joint-venture partners to share the risk on the A350, and no doubt (given that launch aid is held up) they are seeking loans as well.

That raises a 'due diligence' point for any prospective partners, and any banks considering loans. They have a duty to their own shareholders to make sure that any venture they support makes business sense (i.e. has a reasonable chance of commercial success, turning a profit). I don't see any prospect of the A350 project doing that on a sale price of $85M..

Similar 'due diligence' problems for any airlines that sign up for it, too. Ordering A350s automatically entails NOT ordering 787s. Again, it would not be fair to your shareholders to base your whole future mid-market strategy on a particular aeroplane, to the exclusion of another one which will do the same job, unless you are absolutely certain that the chosen manufacturer can deliver, on time and on price; and is not running a risk of going broke trying.........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
trevd
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:51 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:16 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 40):
As I said before, Airbus' average discounts aren't deeper than Boeing's, around 20%. Even if it were, they'd be able to afford it, as their profit margin is higher than Boeing's.

Oh, and they didn't sell SIA A380s for less than $90 million. I've read a lot of rumors on here, and seen a lot of numbers, but that one I've never seen anywhere.

Wishful thinking again Scorpio !!

It's well known in the finance community that Airbus isn't trying hard until they get to about 50% off...( cite Ray Webster and EZY's A319 order at just over $19M each).

I will agree with your comment about SIA's A380's being less than $90M, at least not before you add in the penalties !!
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:19 pm

NAV20,

Can't understand why buying one automatically excludes the other. I mean, what about CX and EK, two of the world's most profitable carriers, much more so than our beloved Qantas, who always buy from both sources.

If Qantas gets the new cash it needs from a lifting of the foreign equity cap my bet is that it will sacrifice the duplication of some costs in having the A350 and 787 in its line-up in return for a much faster introduction of more fuel efficient technology.

Incidentally, the big one is coming to get you. See the details of the A380 visit in the thread A380 Engine Troubles. (I mean, the big jet can't do a damn thing, fly, land, park, reproduce itself or pick up chicks, so it seems even the engines are a heap of cow poo.)

It is going to have an awful lot of time to fail in our skies in a few weeks.

Talking of failure. With all our supposed Qantas insiders, why hasn't anyone mentioned the details of the forthcoming tour which senior staff were told about on Wednesday night or latest Thursday morning?

Antares
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18090
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:33 pm

Quoting TrevD (Reply 48):
It's well known in the finance community that Airbus isn't trying hard until they get to about 50% off...( cite Ray Webster and EZY's A319 order at just over $19M each).

I will agree with your comment about SIA's A380's being less than $90M, at least not before you add in the penalties !!

EADS make excellent profits, and 80% of those profits come from Airbus.

If your figures were even halfway true (theyre not), then either:

(i) how could Airbus make any contribution to EADS profit?

or:

(b) planes are apparently much cheaper to make than anyone thought, so why isn't Boeing making oodles more money?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:50 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 49):
Can't understand why buying one automatically excludes the other.

I agree, Antares, backing both horses is an option; but problems funding A350 development/production could still leave an airline short of its planned number of midsizes around 2010.

It may even become significant, later on, that a high proportion of A350 MOIs have come from airlines that are not controlled by shareholders in the accepted sense. And also that Japanese industry (even Mitsubishi, which is more or less Daimler-Chrysler) has turned down Humbert's A350 joint-venture proposals. Time will tell.

Answered you about the flypast  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BobPatterson, CF-CPI, DavecFlyer, dmorbust, Fiend, Gatwickmatt, Google [Bot], GSPFlyer, ikolkyo, jm079, ktrick45, Miami, Qatara340, Revelation, SANFan, swacle, Tokushima, Yahoo [Bot], zanl188 and 309 guests