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Vio
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Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:54 am

Hi,

Maybe the title of this topic is a bit misleading. What I mean by it is what happens to the flight number that happened to be in a tragic mishap. For example after Air France Flight 8969 was hijacked in 1994 and a few people lost their life, AF decided not to use that number anymore for their flights. According to wikipedia, AF changed the number to 3543 and 7667.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

What about other airlines that were unfortunate to loose an aircraft / life of passengers on a specific flight, do they remove the flight number completely?

Thanks,

Vio
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N908AW
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:58 am

DL and AA both removed 191 from their list because flight 191 crashed on both of those airlines. AA it was a DC-10 in ORD and everybody onboard perished. Don't recall the DL crash but I think it was in DFW...
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deltagator
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:00 am

Most likely for a while. I believe I remember hearing that UAL and AA were renumbering the flights that were used on 9/11. I would be interested to see if those numbers are back in the system.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:22 am

As far as i know the new CO EWR-CGN is CO 111 which was Swissairs flight number... and i understand its a different airline and quite some time later... but unlike most flight numbers, #111 is pretty memorable, as well as #800 which i dont think many airlines use.

'902
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brokenrecord
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:23 am

Checked on united.com, and United 93 does not exist today.
 
N1120A
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 2):
I believe I remember hearing that UAL and AA were renumbering the flights that were used on 9/11. I would be interested to see if those numbers are back in the system.

I really doubt those will ever be back.
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FlySSC
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:32 am

Most of Airlines change the number of a flight that crashed, though AF358 remain CDG-YYZ, even after the crash of F-GLZQ, but it didn't end "tragically" as you say in your topic (except for this poor A340...)

Swissair changed the flight number of their JFK-GVA after the crash of SR111 in Sept.1998. It became SR101 if I remember well, and they even changed the aircraft type on that line, at least during a few weeks following the crash.

On March 5 1968, AF lost a B707 (F-BLCJ) approaching PTP, in Guadeloupe, the last enroute stop of flight AF212 SCL-UIO-CCS-PTP-ORY.

AF didn't change the flight number of this line.

Sadly, a year and a half later on dec.3rd 1969, AF lost another B707 (F-BHSZ). The plane crashed into the ocean a few minutes after taking off from CCS ... operating AF212 to PTP and ORY... The flight originated SCL and UIO ... Sad
 
legendDC9
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:27 am

Yup, TWA doesn't use flight 800 anymore either.
 
navairjax
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:32 am

The practice of retiring flight numbers after an accident was not a common practice until sometime in the 1970s.
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 7):
Yup, TWA doesn't use flight 800 anymore either.

Lol, good guess!!!!!!

Retiring flight numbers is a good idea because you here about XY123 flight crash and you are scheduled to fly that, you would be scared.

The AA and UA flight #'s from 9/11 will most likely never come back.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
777STL
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:12 am

Back when TWA was around, I think they changed Flt 800 to Flt 801.
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fxra
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:09 pm

According to a bar trivia game (the most accurate source of facts known to man) i was playing, the flight numbers are never used again... I think the question was something like "What are the odds of boarding a flight with the same flight number as a previsouly crashed flight?" The answer was zero, (i assumed they meant the entire ident such DL123 or UA456)...

so there you have the definitive answer.

jd
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TWAAF9
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:09 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 10):
Back when TWA was around, I think they changed Flt 800 to Flt 801.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe TW800 (JFK-CDG) was changed to TW924 and TW801 (CDG-JFK) was changed to TW925.

Flew both TW924/TW925 my sophomore year of college. First widebody and international experience of my life.
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Captintut
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:16 pm

There was EgyptAir Flight 990 that was crashed over the Atlantic ocean short after departing from JFK is changed now to 986.

Regards
TuT
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TG992
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:41 pm

Interestingly, Air NZ didn't change the codeshare flight number of the UA BOS-LAX flight that crashed on 9/11 - it remains NZ9051.

Eerily similar to NZ(TE)901, which crashed in Antarctica in 1979 (and Air NZ subsidiary Freedom Air has a flight SJ901!)
-
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting Fxra (Reply 11):
"What are the odds of boarding a flight with the same flight number as a previsouly crashed flight?" The answer was zero, (i assumed they meant the entire ident such DL123 or UA456)...

so there you have the definitive answer.

Not entirely true. IIRC, American Flight #1 crashed into Jamaica Bay just off from JFK back in the later 50s or early 60s.....American Flight #1 still exists today as a LAX-JFK flight (or vice versa).......but I'll bet it depends on how recent, or tragic, the event was.......

In fact, there reason I remember this is because of a man who lost his parnts on Flight #1 and then lost his brother (?) on something like American flight 191.....and he received the same form letter from the latter as he did from the one where his parents died (the letter was a plea to not sue the airline I think)....please correct me if I'm wrong
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gman3
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 3):
As far as i know the new CO EWR-CGN is CO 111 which was Swissairs flight number... and i understand its a different airline and quite some time later... but unlike most flight numbers, #111 is pretty memorable, as well as #800 which i dont think many airlines use.

United still uses flt 800. It is our NRT-JFK flight.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 2):
Most likely for a while. I believe I remember hearing that UAL and AA were renumbering the flights that were used on 9/11. I would be interested to see if those numbers are back in the system.

Those flight numbers will not be used again.
 
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:10 pm

Individual airlines retire the flight numbers - not industrywide. So even though TW800 was a terrible tragedy, the number 800 was only retired from use by what was then TWA.

Just like how Alaska Airlines retired flight number 261 from use after the crash in January of 2000, but other airlines freely use this number still.
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BDKLEZ
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:40 pm

BD092 still operates LHR-BFS.

This one crashed into the embankment on the M1 only a few hundered metres from the runway at EMA after #2 engine shut-down and #1 engine fail in the crash which killed about 50 people in the winter of 1989 if I remember correctly. A sad day.
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lightsaber
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:41 pm

Ever since the Korean air lines incident, I haven't seen a flight 007.

Lightsaber
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Cody
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:35 pm

Eastern Airlines flight 401 from JFK-MIA crashed into the Everglades in 1972, but Eastern continued to use that flight number on the same route all the way up until 1988. I thought that was especially strange considering the fact that four books and two movies were made about the crash and the "incredible aftermath."
 
gman3
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Ever since the Korean air lines incident, I haven't seen a flight 007.

Lightsaber

United uses it JFK-SFO
 
NewSky
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:11 am

BA operate flight #7 too, LHR-NRT
 
mhodgson
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:09 am

BA don't use 93/193 (IIRC) any more because it had terrorism connotations. I think it was stopped/turned back several times due to intelligence suggesting it was a threat.
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JFK998
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:19 am

You are correct on that CaptainTuT, however Egypt Air did use the flight number MS990 flight for a few months after the crash had taken place, I know this for a fact because I used to fly them to Cairo and I used them even after the crash had occurred, and it still was the same flight number. After 9/11 MS withdrew from LAX and now only provides service from JFK to Cairo. Once they withdrew from LAX, MS changed their flight from MS990 to MS986.
 
pillowtester
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:27 am

Does any airline operate a flight 103?
...said Dan jubilantly.
 
rootsair
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):
Swissair changed the flight number of their JFK-GVA after the crash of SR111 in Sept.1998. It became SR101 if I remember well, and they even changed the aircraft type on that line, at least during a few weeks following the crash.

No it changed to SR 115...the worst is that the GVA-JFK flight was 114

114+115= 229.... the number of victimes in the flight! wonder if it was done on purpose or was a mere coincidence

[Edited 2005-10-29 22:30:15]
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rootsair
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:31 am

Well inthis case emergency number should change and not be 911 cause it could stand for 9 / 11
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L1011Lover
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:40 am

As Navairjax mentioned before, the practice of changing flight numbers after an accident was not common until late in the 70´s!

The reason is the media! Back in the 50´s, 60´s and 70´s the media mostly and more likely reported the route and aircraft type on the news! In the 60´s more and more jets came online and in the 70´s the widebodies! So in fact nobody cared for the flightnumber and a big hedline always included the aircraft type!

While nowadays there are more frequent airtravellers and flying is affordable for almost everyone, an jets are a common sight.

Eastern never changed its flight number 401 from JFK to MIA that crashed into the Everglades in 1972. The flight was operated by a brandnew Lockheed TriStar L1011 and was the first widebody aircraft ever to crash! So the media reported "A huge and brandnew Eastern widebody jetliner crashed in the Florida Everglades"

For example: There are not many people who remember the flight number of the AF Concorde that crashed in Paris in 2000 (including me!!! All I remember is that it was a four digit number starting ith 4...)! The fact that it was a Concorde was far more imoportant than the flight number. So the flight number was never big in the reports and the newscoverage and even the aftermath. While on the other hand a lot of people remember PA103, TW800, SR111! Those were reported big in the news.

When the AA DC-10 crashed in Chicago in 1979 the media referred to the accident as "the crash of AA flight 191". Flight 191 as a heavy frequented flight and the DC-10 which came close to 10 years of operation was not uncommon on that route. So AA191 became the first big reported ill-fated flight numeber and as a result AA retired it!

Some interesting facts about ill-fated flight numbers:

Pan Am changed their 6pm departure from LHR to JFK from PA103 to PA111 after the bombing of flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. About 10 years later Swissair lost their flight SR111 out of JFK.

The flight number 191 crashed twice, once as an American DC-10 in ORD in 1979 and the other time in august 1985 it was a Delta L1011 TriStar in DFW. Coincidentally both flights were operated by the respective carriers flagship 3-holer aircraft and both were bound for LAX.

TWA had already sustained a deadly loss from a fuel tank explosion. When in 1964 a TWA disaster killed forty-nine people in Rome. By odd coincidence this flight was also TW800. The Boeing 707 had flown from New York to Paris, then to Rome, and was to continue to Athens. The plane never left the ground in Rome. The TWA 747 that crashed on July 17th in 1996 just hours before arrived from ATH and crashed on its way to CDG and FCO!!! In 1996 TWA retired flight 800 once and forever!!!

Best regards,

L1011Lover
 
boysteve
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Ever since the Korean air lines incident, I haven't seen a flight 007

What would happen if a Far Eastern airline were to lose its flight number 8?

Seriously though I don't see the need to re-number. Its just a way to make some people feel better about themselves without actually achieving anything. If I were to be killed on flight number X then I would think it stupid if the airline renumbered flight X in future. It's still the same bloody flight afterall. I see this as one of those stupid things like airlines not having a row 13! If you have a brain you know that any luck (good or bad) to happen to row 13 would happen to row 14 instead!

Lets all get a grip.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 2):
I would be interested to see if those numbers are back in the system

11 and 77 will never be used by AA again, and 93 and 175 will never be used by United again. Even more so, since these are the 9/11 flight numbers.

Quoting Brokenrecord (Reply 4):
Checked on united.com, and United 93 does not exist today.

Only two nonstops EWR-SFO now...one is #73 and the other is #853 (connecting to a widebody that goes across the Pacific)

United also doesn't use #232 or #811...both flight numbers lost lives in 1989. #811 was the 747 that lost is cargo door after leaving HNL for AKL, and of course #232 was the famous DC-10 incident with Capt. Haynes.

Quoting Gman3 (Reply 21):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Ever since the Korean air lines incident, I haven't seen a flight 007.

Lightsaber

United uses it JFK-SFO

Right...but unlike KL did, UA doesn't show the preceding two zeros in front of the 7, or for any single digit flight # it operates.
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gman3
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 25):
Does any airline operate a flight 103?



United ORD-LAX
 
deltagator
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:44 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Ever since the Korean air lines incident, I haven't seen a flight 007.

Virgin uses it on their LHR-LAX route and refers to it with the leading zeros.

Quoting Gman3 (Reply 16):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 2):
Most likely for a while. I believe I remember hearing that UAL and AA were renumbering the flights that were used on 9/11. I would be interested to see if those numbers are back in the system.

Those flight numbers will not be used again.

You are correct. I'm not really sure what I was thinking when I wrote that reply. Perhaps if other carriers are using them...I just don't remember now?
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ricardofg
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:50 pm

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 7):
Yup, TWA doesn't use flight 800 anymore either.

LOL!  hyper 
 
tsentsan
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...

Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:39 pm

After the SQ006 crash in Dec 2000, the flight route was "renamed" SQ30/SQ29.
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Speedbird2155
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:04 pm

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 23):
BA don't use 93/193 (IIRC) any more because it had terrorism connotations.

BA093 is LHR-YYZ. As for BA193, I've been searching to see if there ever was such. The flight you are likely referring to is the IAD service which was indeed renumbered due to terror threats on a few occassions.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:07 pm

Quote:
In fact, there reason I remember this is because of a man who lost his parnts on Flight #1 and then lost his brother (?) on something like American flight 191.....and he received the same form letter from the latter as he did from the one where his parents died (the letter was a plea to not sue the airline I think)....please correct me if I'm wrong

According to David Grayson, in his book "Terror In The Skies", he says "A victim of the Chicago DC-10 crash had experienced a personal tragedy 17 years later. Both of his parents had then been killed in an airplane accident in which, like Flight 191, all aboard perished. The airline was the same - American Airlines. The destination of their flight was the same - Los Angeles."

Quote:
Eastern Airlines flight 401 from JFK-MIA crashed into the Everglades in 1972, but Eastern continued to use that flight number on the same route all the way up until 1988. I thought that was especially strange considering the fact that four books and two movies were made about the crash and the "incredible aftermath."

You beat me to it! Excellent job!  bigthumbsup 
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nzblue
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:29 am

Not quite a flight number, but still a numbers game, it might be interesting to point out that F9 skipped the registration N911FR in its sequence of taking delivery of their Airbus 319's.

Regards,

NZblue
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wagz
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting NZblue (Reply 37):
Not quite a flight number, but still a numbers game, it might be interesting to point out that F9 skipped the registration N911FR in its sequence of taking delivery of their Airbus 319's.

Frontier only skipped N911FR because that registration was already registered to a Fire/Rescue Helicopter. Ad N Number lookup reveals it to belong to a Bell 412 in Miami.
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6thfreedom
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 25):
Does any airline operate a flight 103?

Yes, Qantas operates QF103, MEL-LAX.
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:51 pm

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 35):
The flight you are likely referring to is the IAD service which was indeed renumbered due to terror threats on a few occassions.

That was BA223 and BA222 which became BA293 and BA292.

I fondly remember as I was originally scheduled to fly back on BA222 the day (2nd January 04) when the whole shenanigans went off with BA223. I watched at home on Sky News as news helicopters followed the flight taking off from LHR and arriving at IAD. As it happened I had a family emergency and went home a week early but I still got a call from BA to tell me my flight had been moved back to a midnight departure from IAD.

News results

[Edited 2005-10-31 06:00:59]
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AirEMS
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:53 pm

I think I saw CO 1713 a few years back at DIA Could be wrong... Here's a question if Airlines actually used the same accident Flt #'s would anyone other than A.Netters notice? Kinda goes along with the "if a tree falls on a mime in the forest does anyone care err... I mean hear it?  duck 

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FlySSC
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:51 am

Guys,
9/11 or 911 may have a tragic connotation in the U.S but not in Europe as it doesn't "mean" anything ... :

In Europe, dates are usualy mentionned : dd/mm/yyyy.

In France, The "9/11" tragedy is never referred as "Nine/eleven", or "neuf/onze" but as "onze(11) septembre".
i guess it's the same in Italy, Germany or Spain
 
Clipper002
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:07 am

Pan Am 103 was the only flight number retired by Pan Am following a crash of one of their flights. ( and there were plenty of them). Unfortunately PA103 was a known act of terror and someone at Pan Am finally came up with a good suggestion to retire the flight number.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
Markdirk
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RE: Tragic Flights' #s (Do Airlines Remove Them...?)

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:16 pm

TWA had a string of bad luck with their flight numbers #841/#843/#847, but kept using the numbers. It seems in their history the #84- series of flight numbers had most accidents/incidents/events, at least repetitive.