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xms3200
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Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:04 am

On Mar. 25th 1977, two 747's crashed into each other in
Tenerife killing approx. 583 people. I was wondering if the Pan Am pilots are still living, or even the cabin crew. The Pan Am captain's name was Victor Grubbs.
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:11 am

There is one female cabin crew member in her 50's that are still alive. There are still a few PAX alive aswell.

Thanks
Mike
 
iberiadc852
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:19 am

The co-pilot is still living. The pilot (Victor Grubbs) and the flight engineer have already died. In www.tenerifecrash.com there is a lot of information about all that. In case you don't find it in the proper webpage you will find it in the video they sell in it The editor is the co-pilot himself, Robert Bragg.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
aa757first
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:27 am

One flight attendant from the flight was featured in a magazine of some sort. She threw fifty some passengers out of a door on a broken arm and assisted relief crews before going to a hospital herself.

Oddly enough, shortly before Christmas of 1988, a college came to her and asked her to switch trips. She had to refuse because of a family engagement. Turns out the trip included flight 103 as a segment. Amazing she averted death on-duty twice in a few years.

AAndrew
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:29 am

I just read Robert Bragg's transcript, and it is shockingly poorly written!

Interesting, but just riddled with errors!
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iberiadc852
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:30 am

In that webpage there is a not very well know photo of the two planes parked at Tenerife's ramp less than an hour before the crash. It is slightly different version of a better known one, which has already been published here, but I think this one is better. Besides, in this one you can also see at the bottom right of the photo a SATA DC-8 backtracking in the same way the two 747 did, which was one of the last airplanes that took off before the crash, and which was parked just in front of the two Boeings.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
parisien
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:33 am

saw a documentary of it on a french tv recently (cant remember the channel though). If that was the video, it was very interesting. There were so many "if only"s as I guess common to catastrophic events. The salient if onlys I remember from the film: no missing pax for KL so that it could have left on time (ealier); enough space for PA to move past KL to reach the runway etc. etc. the fog moved in very fast it seems....
 
DeC
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:35 am

Are you talking about this incident?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19770327-1
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19770327-0

it was March the 27th, 1977 and not in the 25th
DEC
 
fanofjets
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:33 am

Thanks for the Web site - some interesting stuff here. However, not to be picky, but several of the crash and aftermat pictures are of the LH 747-130 that crashed on takeoff in Nairobi, Kenya, on November 20, 1974:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741120-0
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
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rg828
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:50 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
I just read Robert Bragg's transcript, and it is shockingly poorly written!

Interesting, but just riddled with errors!

What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
rdynyc
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:54 am

Yes, the Purser is still alive and well working for United!
 
levg79
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:01 pm

Quoting RG828 (Reply 10):
What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"

Not only that, but he says that 747 has about 16 wheels. Wouldn't the 747 co-pilot know that it actually has 18?

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
TG992
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting RG828 (Reply 10):

What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"

I didn't realise one of the necessary qualifications for being a Pan Am pilot was knowing the location of every island in the world.

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 11):
Not only that, but he says that 747 has about 16 wheels. Wouldn't the 747 co-pilot know that it actually has 18?

I'd assume he was referring to the main gear wheels, not including the nosewheels.

Cut the guy some slack, guys.. his toenail clippings are probably more knowledgable about the 747 than any of us will ever be.
-
 
levg79
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 12):
Cut the guy some slack, guys.. his toenail clippings are probably more knowledgable about the 747 than any of us will ever be.

I know, I know. I just thought it was kind of weird when he referred to it as a plane with "about 16 wheels". I never meant it as an insult to Mr. Bragg.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
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rg828
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 12):
Quoting RG828 (Reply 10):

What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"

I didn't realise one of the necessary qualifications for being a Pan Am pilot was knowing the location of every island in the world.

Oh come on, PAA flew EVERYWHERE back then for christsakes! You'd think he would have heard of those Islands off the coast of Africa!
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
KensukeAida
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:11 pm

These transcripts are clearly very rough drafts that were just transcribed from an audio souce. So, if it puts Mr. Briggs in a false light it's really not his fault. I doubt any one of us could do a flawless interview.

- John
 
NAV20
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:33 pm

Quoting KensukeAida (Reply 15):
These transcripts are clearly very rough drafts that were just transcribed from an audio souce.

I'm sure that's absolutely right. Most of us would sound pretty incoherent if someone just taped our own firsthand descriptions of something. Personally I'm glad they left it that way, rather than editing and 'sanitising' it so it lost most of its impact and meaning.

Iberiad, thanks for posting the link, it is very informative. I knew the basic cause of the accident - the KLM pilot mistaking his ATC clearance for takeoff clearance - but had never understood before how that could have happened, because procedures (and ATC phrasing) are usually so codified and specific. Now that I understand the time pressures that everyone was under - an overcrowded airport, everyone clamouring to get away, the fog coming down - it's easier to understand. Though no less tragic.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:29 pm

Hi,

I was going through the images of the webpage, and this image here got me thinkin'. Look at the tail on the photo, doesn't it look a lot like a LH tail? The crash was between a KLM and a Pan Am wasn't it?

It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:33 pm

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17):

That is an LH crash.

That is not this accident. All of the debris was on the RWY @ Tenerife therefore you would see that on the RWY or close to a lot of other fuselage if it were the KLM/Pan Am accident.

I think that was the LH CV-440 that crashed upon landing at Bremen, but not sure.

Thanks
Mike

[Edited 2005-10-30 10:38:42]
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:36 pm

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 18):

Why would they put a LH crash picture under the photo gallery of "the crash" on the teneriffe crash webpage?  scratchchin  I don't get it.

Thanks
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:40 pm

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 19):

A mistake probably, but that is definetly an LH aircraft. It may have been the CV-440 that crashed on approach to Bremen in 1966 or the LH B747 crash at Nairobi in 1974.

Thanks
Mike

[Edited 2005-10-30 10:40:51]
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:42 pm

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 20):

Okay! Thanks for that info!
Best regards,
Philippe
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
viscount630
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:06 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 3):
One flight attendant from the flight was featured in a magazine of some sort. She threw fifty some passengers out of a door on a broken arm and assisted relief crews before going to a hospital herself.

She (Dorothy Kelly?) is also featured in "Fasten Your Seat Belts", the excellent story of the history of Pan Ams cabin crews. Her description of the accident and what happened afterwards is not only very chilling, it's very moving. She should actually have been working on the upper deck, but an F/A in the lower deck First Class cabin asked to her swap. He, and all the passengers in that cabin, were killed in the collision.

Her actions during the tragedy were incredibly inspiring. In a famous picture of the aftermath, (used by "Time" I think - sorry I don't have a link) she can be seen tending to injured passengers (still unaware of her own broken arm) with the PA 747 still burning nearby. A real credit to her profession.
RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
 
iberiadc852
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:33 pm

I also wonder if some other photos , like the following one, for example,

http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Crash/pages/pic15.htm

are from the 747 LH Nairobi crash, as probably Fanofjets has pointed out.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:43 pm

Not quite to do with the Tenerife crash, but the LH one in NBO.

One of my good clients used to work for Rolls Royce (a/c engine division) at the time, and he had a colleague on that flight. He said that the guy used to count the number of seconds from the moment the plane began its take-off roll to airborne as habit, and this particular day in NBO, he just kept on counting to the point where he knew their was a problem.

LH informed his wife that he had died, so a couple of days later when he regained consiouness in a NBO hospital, he called her. My client said that she was pretty histerical, as she thought he was calling her from "beyond the grave". He had, in fact, switched seats with someone on board.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
mika
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting Fanofjets (Reply 8):
Thanks for the Web site - some interesting stuff here. However, not to be picky, but several of the crash and aftermat pictures are of the LH 747-130 that crashed on takeoff in Nairobi, Kenya, on November 20, 1974:

There are several pics there of a LH 747, most noticable from the blue cheatline on the fuselage. Kind of a bad mistake really to mix those pics up with the Tenerife crash.
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:09 pm

Was this incident at TFN or TFS?

The Sorcerer
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B727230
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:25 pm

I would say a large majority of the photos are from the Lufthansa disaster. There are lots of duplicates as well. Even the photo on the first page showing a 747 nose with a huge pile of smoke rising is of a Lufthansa 747. On this photo you can even see remnants of the Lufthansa titles:



The colours of various seats seen thrown about show a striking resemblance to those used by Lufthansa in the days as well.

It seems like this is just another sensationalist "documentary" where facts and seriousity have been thrown out the window.

@TheSorcerer: It was at Tenerife-Los Rodeos (TFN). TFS was built after the accident as Los Rodeos was not very popular among pilots, weather was often bad and approaches were difficult.
Wieder in die Sonne fliegen
 
daron4000
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:44 pm

Quoting RDYNYC (Reply 9):
Yes, the Purser is still alive and well working for United!

That's really interesting! Do you know her name or any of the routes she usually flies b/c that would be cool to be on a flight with her.
 
dcrusafon
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:26 am

I met Robert Bragg last year in Tenerife Norte (TFN) He came to thanks the hospital and the local government for all the help they received the day of the accident.

Here is me and Robert in front the Air Europa ticket office in TFN.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/dcrusafon/dario2.jpg

DARIO
 
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Navigator
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 26):

TFS was not built in 1977. The reason they built TFS was among other things this crash at Tenerife Los Rodeos Airport, now TFN. The bad safety reputation of Los Rodeos was a major problem for the authorities at Tenerife. That´s one reason why TFS was built.
747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
 
panamair
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting RDYNYC (Reply 9):
Yes, the Purser is still alive and well working for United!

Dorothy Kelly continued to fly for Pan Am after Tenerife and was based out of LHR by the time Pan Am started failing in the early '90s. I'm not certain of all the exact details but according to some former PAA FAs, she was not hired by UA for various reasons when UA took over PA's LHR ops. She subsequently fell on hard times and at one point was almost (or maybe even was) a 'bag lady'. Later, when some ex-PA FAs who were rejected by UA sued and won in court, she was also reinstated and now, as mentioned, is flying for UA - not sure whether out of their LHR base or not.
 
rdynyc
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:53 am

Yea, Dorothy Kelly! I flew with her when I was based in LHR with Pan Am. Didn't know if I should state her name here on "Airliners". If you'd like to read her account of that day in Tenerife you can find her story in the book "Fasten Your Seat Belts! History and Heroism in The Pan Am Cabin" by Valerie Lester. It's really a great book!
 
ACEregular
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:03 am

I was just wondering before this accident, when Tenerife South was not in existance what was the airport code for Los Rodeos, as being the only airport on Tenerife it would not need to N to differentiate from the south Airport.
 
viscount630
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting ACEregular (Reply 33):
I was just wondering before this accident, when Tenerife South was not in existance what was the airport code for Los Rodeos, as being the only airport on Tenerife it would not need to N to differentiate from the south Airport.

It was TCI (as in Tenerife, Canary Islands)
RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
 
ACEregular
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:33 am

I always thought TCI was the collective code for Tenerife like LON is London and NYC is New York, thanks
 
Orion737
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:33 am

Can anyone tell me the name of the lady who was the tour representative who diembarked at Tenerife instead of staying on the plane and survived?

Is she still alive?
 
iberiadc852
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 30):
The reason they built TFS was among other things this crash at Tenerife Los Rodeos

Actually, at that time, TFS runway was finished, as the works had started in the first seventies. The terminal building was not built, because of several problems, but what this accident really did was hurry up the construction until its finalization in 1978.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
Ilovenz
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:44 am

I remember seeing Bob Bragg and Dorothy Kelley being interviewed in 1997 for Survival in the Sky, a four-part documentary on airliner safety. I remember taping those and watching them time and time again. There was another senior (I think Pan Am) pilot called in to head up the American part of the investigation and he was also interviewed, but I forgot his name. Bob Bragg looked a little younger than in the picture above. I couldn't figure out how old he was, but he looked to be at least in his 70's then. From the interview transcript, though, it seems like he's in his 70's now. How old were Capt. Grubbs and F/E Warns at the time of the accident? Were they flying after the crash?

I've also never understood how the KLM actually crashed after colliding with the Pan Am. Did hit fall real hard onto it's belly? Was it even remotely intact after hitting the PA? Was it something that looked similar to UA 232 in Sioux City?
 
iberiadc852
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RE: Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living

Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Ilovenz (Reply 38):

In the official accident reports they say the age of the crew members; I am almost sure captain Grubbs was 57 and captain Van Zanten 50 or 51. But I will try to look for it later.

About the crash, it was quite superficial; in fact the KLM was airborne when it hit PAN-AM, and the nose gear and one of the 4 boogies of the main one surpassed it. The big damage for the KLM was when it hit the ground about 300 mts. further away, and for the PAN-AM the fire and subsequent explosions caused by the crash. Beside the ones of the wheels, there are several other subtle details of the crash that allow to make a nearly exact position of both planes in the moment of the impact. I managed to create one in Flight Simulator but don't know how to post it. If you tell me how I can do it.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good