A360
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345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:50 am

I've read in the forum that when airbus starts producing the HGW version, it will be the end of production of the non-HGW versions. Is that true?

For now, none 345HGW have been ordered, so all the 345 on order are non HGW version... but I suppose if an airline orders the 345 now, it will be the hgw version.

As for the 346HGW, it seem that the first one will be delivered in 2006(when in 2006??) to Ethiad.

So... how many non HGW 346's are left to be delivered? I guess the ones for Iberia, SAA and Thai are all non HGW.... but after those will it all be HGW??

The follow on 346 orders by Lufthansa and Virgin are for HGW versions?? I guess so, because those will be delivered after the first HGW versions start to be delivered, right?

So the 346HGW costumers are: Ethiad, Emirates, Lufthansa??, Virgin Atlantic??, Qatar??
 
TaromA380
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:04 am

And what are the differences (in detail) for the HGW versions ?

Did Airbus promised anything or they just try to improve the A340, in a relaxed manner ?

Is that the last evolution of the A340 series ?
 
egnr
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:05 am

The last non-HGW A340-500/-600 wings will be produced before the end of this year. All wings produced from Jan 2nd 2006 will be HGW wings.

The first A340-600HGW is msn 715 and this is due to be delivered to Qatar Airways.
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
Lumberton
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:25 am

Went to the Airbus website and tried to find info on the HGW versions but didn't have any luck. Can someone help with a link?
Thanks,
Lumberton
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:17 am

Lumberton... if you check the specs for the 345/346 you will notice there are 2 versions... one of them heavier, with more powerfull engine and longer range (the HGW version).

The values for the HGW version are between parenthesis.

Quoting EGNR (Reply 2):
The last non-HGW A340-500/-600 wings will be produced before the end of this year. All wings produced from Jan 2nd 2006 will be HGW wings.

The first A340-600HGW is msn 715 and this is due to be delivered to Qatar Airways.

Thanks for the info!

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 1):
And what are the differences (in detail) for the HGW versions ?

Higher MTOW, more powerfull engines (the same engines as the other versions, but delivering more power) and subsequently longer range.
There may be other changes, but I don't know very much about it... just the basic facts.
 
gigneil
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:38 am

There's a fair number of changes... the spoilers and some other wing devices will be composite now, and there are other varying changes to the structure of the wing to both strengthen and lighten it.

N
 
TaromA380
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:21 am

I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

And what about the already ordered 345 & 346 for 2006+ ? Automatic conversion to HGW or not ?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

Not even. While the A346-HGW comes close to matching the 773ER on range, it still falls way short of payload and fuel consumption. The A345-HGW is even less likely to compete with the 772LR:

- The estimated range for the A345-HGW is 9,000 nm. This falls 420 nm short of the existing 772LR.

- The A345-HGW would not match the payload uplift of the 772LR and would require a much larger fuel volume for a given mission. The A345-HGW is still a weight-limited aircraft, whereas the 772LR is restricted by fuel volume.

- Because the 772LR is limited by fuel volume and not take-off weight, Boeing could hypothetically add a fourth cargo fuel tank and push the 772LR well past 9,420 nm. In theory, this aircraft may be capable of Kangaroo Hop Holy Grail: LHR-SYD and SYD-LHR (or much less sexy: SYD-DFW)

The A345 won a fair number of orders because of early availability, but the 772LR has since tied the A345, and could potentially surge past the A345 in the near future. I wouldn't call the A345's future bright...
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

And what about the already ordered 345 & 346 for 2006+ ? Automatic conversion to HGW or not ?

Haven't all A345's on order been delivered? Unless someone orders a new A345HGW, none will enter service.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
While the A346-HGW comes close to matching the 773ER on range

Close to matching?? The 346HGW has longer range than the 773ER has. 7900nm for the 346HGW vs. 7880nm for the 773ER. Big grin

Those 20 nautic milles make the diference! Lol!
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 8):
Haven't all A345's on order been delivered? Unless someone orders a new A345HGW, none will enter service.

Not all... there are 6 left to be delivered... 4 for Thai and 2 for Ethiad I think... or the other way around. And those won't be HGW versions.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 10):
Not all... there are 6 left to be delivered.

Thanks for the correction.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 10):
Not all... there are 6 left to be delivered... 4 for Thai and 2 for Ethiad I think... or the other way around. And those won't be HGW versions.

I thought EK and TG one each, and EY x 4 ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
TaromA380
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The A345 won a fair number of orders because of early availability, but the 772LR has since tied the A345, and could potentially surge past the A345 in the near future. I wouldn't call the A345's future bright...

Ok. But we are talking about the A345HGW. In theory, it's an improved A345. In practice, we haven't any performance report, as it's just on paper.

The 772LR is still in certification stage, no performance report either (however the future seems quiet bright, based on the very good performances of the 777-series).

So, wait & see. HGW, but how much HGW ?  Smile
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
I thought EK and TG one each, and EY x 4 ?

EK has received all it's 10 345's... the last one was delivered on the 29th of September.

There are 6 345's to be delivered... 4 for Ethiad and 2 for Thai. ---->This is valid for the 30th of September 2005.

I'm cheking this in the airbus order/deliveries book.  Wink

Check it out: http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/ --> Then go to the bottom of the page and download the Exek file.


Regards:
A360
 
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zeke
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:55 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 14):
EK has received all it's 10 345's... the last one was delivered on the 29th of September.

I thought the 10th EK one msn 694 A6-ERJ has not been delivered, and the third TG one msn 698 HS-TLC was in service as of oct 25.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Feroze
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
I thought EK and TG one each, and EY x 4 ?



Quoting Zeke (Reply 15):
Quoting A360 (Reply 14):
EK has received all it's 10 345's... the last one was delivered on the 29th of September.

I thought the 10th EK one msn 694 A6-ERJ has not been delivered, and the third TG one msn 698 HS-TLC was in service as of oct 25.

EMIRATES RECEIVES ITS ENTIRE ORDER OF AIRBUS A340-500

Emirates, the Dubai-based international airline equipped with one of the most modern fleets in the world, has received its entire order of Airbus A340-500s with the arrival of its 10th A340-500 aircraft.


http://www.emirates.com/uk/AboutEmir...ews/GN_NewsDetail.asp?yr=2005&St=2

Regards,

Feroze
 
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PM
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:20 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The A345 won a fair number of orders because of early availability, but the 772LR has since tied the A345

Really? Airbus have sold 26 A345s to six customers. Boeing have sold 5 777-200LRs to two customers. I guess you could add in the 9 777-200Fs for two customers to take the total to 14 but that's still just half the A345 total.
 
Thorben
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
Airbus have sold 26 A345s to six customers. Boeing have sold 5 777-200LRs to two customers.

Some of the T7s for AC, AI or QR might be -200LRs, too. Does anybody know fur sure?

Quoting A360 (Reply 14):
There are 6 345's to be delivered... 4 for Ethiad and 2 for Thai.

Yes, and according to my knowledge none of these are HGW.

Concerning the -600HGW, IIRC only those for EK (20), EY (4) and QR (4) are HGW, the rest not.

Quoting EGNR (Reply 2):
The last non-HGW A340-500/-600 wings will be produced before the end of this year. All wings produced from Jan 2nd 2006 will be HGW wings.

So does this mean, all -600 with those wings will be HGW? Or is this just an improvement?

Quoting EGNR (Reply 2):
The first A340-600HGW is msn 715 and this is due to be delivered to Qatar Airways.

When is that going to happen? I read it was to be delivered in the 2nd half of 2006, on the other hand I've already seen a picture of an almost completely painted msn 710 rolling around at TLS.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
WINGS
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
So does this mean, all -600 with those wings will be HGW? Or is this just an improvement?

All future A340-600 models will become standard with the HGW improvements.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
N1120A
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:56 pm

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

Nothing true about it. The 772LR will still hand the A345HGW its a$$

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
(or much less sexy: SYD-DFW)

SYD-DFW is 2000nm below the still air range of the current 772LR, there would be no need for extra tanks. In fact, it could be run with the de-tanked version

Quoting A360 (Reply 9):
7900nm for the 346HGW vs. 7880nm for the 773ER

Given how baddly the A346 missed its targets, lets wait and see if it actually can make 7900nm
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Thorben
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 19):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
So does this mean, all -600 with those wings will be HGW? Or is this just an improvement?


All future A340-600 models will become standard with the HGW improvements.

How much better are they going to be?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
WINGS
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Given how baddly the A346 missed its targets, lets wait and see if it actually can make 7900nm

Hi N1120A,

When you wrote that the A346 baddly missed its target do you know by how much?
Would you be kind enough to show some facts concerning this?

In regards to the A345 did it too miss its target and by how much?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
N1120A
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 22):
When you wrote that the A346 baddly missed its target do you know by how much?
Would you be kind enough to show some facts concerning this?

The A346 was supposed to have 8000nm range, which it didn't. Additionally, the wings came in heavier that advertised, much to the chagrin of Cathay Pacific which has not been happy with the fuel burn
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TaromA380
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
The 772LR will still hand the A345HGW its a$$

You seem to know a lot about uncertified planes performances, and about not-even-built planes too.
 
airbazar
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 13):
The 772LR is still in certification stage, no performance report either (however the future seems quiet bright, based on the very good performances of the 777-series).

I guess that depends on what you mean by "bright future". Given the limited number of routes for these aircraft and the even more limited number of carriers that need them, At this point "bright" is not a word I'd use to describe the future of both the A345 and 777LR.
 
N1120A
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 24):
You seem to know a lot about uncertified planes performances, and about not-even-built planes too.

The 772LR has almost completed certification and its range numbers are already known and confirmed through flight testing and through the commercial service of the 773ER. The A345HGW's range and fuel burn can easily be extrapolated from its weight gain over the A345, as like DFWRevolution said, the aircraft is weight limited.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
WINGS
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
How much better are they going to be?

The new A340-600HGW should have the following upgrades,

Engine thrust 267kn vs (249kn)
Range 14,600km vs 13,900km
MTOW 380T vs 368T

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...0a340/a340-600/specifications.html

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):

The A346 was supposed to have 8000nm range

It would seem that even with the HGW version they are still not able to get that 8.000nm as they will be 100nm short. Are you sure about these figures?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
astuteman
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 27):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):

The A346 was supposed to have 8000nm range

It would seem that even with the HGW version they are still not able to get that 8.000nm as they will be 100nm short. Are you sure about these figures?

AFAIK original A346 design range has always been 7500nm.

Never seen an Airbus document that said anything other than this.
Also AFAIK, the only performance target not met by A346 was dispatch reliability.
 
Glareskin
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 24):
You seem to know a lot about uncertified planes performances, and about not-even-built planes too.

Hmm, I had the impression his knowledge was more about bottoms...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The A345 won a fair number of orders because of early availability, but the 772LR has since tied the A345, and could potentially surge past the A345 in the near future.

Ok, not a lot of new orders since then, but the 772LR didn't have too many either.... So either it was a slow market demand at this timeframe or the 772LR pushed Airbus to offer the customer an improved version with the result that both parties won't sell for the moment. Airbus Pitches Long-range A340 To Qantas (by Sq212 Oct 27 2005 in Civil Aviation)


Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
I wouldn't call the A345's future bright...

And that is why they offer the HGW now!  Wink
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5):
There's a fair number of changes... the spoilers and some other wing devices will be composite now, and there are other varying changes to the structure of the wing to both strengthen and lighten it.

The wing may be lighter but both HGW are structurally heavier than their standard versions. Seems like Airbus managed to found somewhere else to add bulk to the airframes...

What has not been mentioned here is that while the increases in weight extend the range envelope of the A340-500/600, fuel burn and subsequently seat specific costs will increase as well. It's a trade off that comprimises economy of operation to meet the range capabilities of the competition.






-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
TaromA380
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:22 am

What about the price difference between non-HGW and HGW variants ?

Is the HGW a sort of bonus from Airbus ?  Smile
 
Thorben
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:30 am

Widebody, somehow your overall lengths seem strange to me. Are you sure about those figures?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
TaromA380
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 30):
What has not been mentioned here is that while the increases in weight extend the range envelope of the A340-500/600, fuel burn and subsequently seat specific costs will increase as well.

You are telling the HGW is an involution, then !

I am lost ...
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 19):
All future A340-600 models will become standard with the HGW improvements.

That means that for example LH's new 346's will (at least some) be HGW, right?
 
tomcat
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:00 am

Widebodyphotog,

It would be interesting if you could produce the same table with an added column for 744, just to appreciate how a 35+ year old design compares to a newer one... Sometimes, I've some difficulties to see what A346 has brought.

Thanks in advance,

Nicolas
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Tomcat (Reply 35):
It would be interesting if you could produce the same table with an added column for 744, just to appreciate how a 35+ year old design compares to a newer one... Sometimes, I've some difficulties to see what A346 has brought.



If you add the 744, add the 773ER too please.

Regards:
A360
 
Rj111
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting Tomcat (Reply 35):
I've some difficulties to see what A346 has brought.

The A345/6 haven't really brought a lot, it's just Airbus covering that area of the market. The only (relatively) cheap way to do it was to extend the A343/2 which were not only quads but also a lot smaller. Also the cross section is derived from the even smaller A300. So the plane didn't exactly excel performance wise but meant that whole market segment was handed just to the 777, i guess it gave them a bit of experience too. I dunno whether they've broke even or not, might have to sell 50 odd more in order for this to happen, i believe the program cost roughly US$3Bill .

[Edited 2005-10-31 21:22:57]
 
karan69
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:08 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
Some of the T7s for AC, AI or QR might be -200LRs, too. Does anybody know fur sure?

6 LRs including the freighter versions for QR
8 LRs including 3 options for AI
I am not sure about AC though
 
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scbriml
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 38):
6 LRs including the freighter versions for QR
8 LRs including 3 options for AI
I am not sure about AC though

Boeing still only lists 5 sales for the 772LR, the last being 3 years ago! I have no doubt that someone else will buy some soon.

Personally I don't count the 777F as a ULR pax plane, but that's probably just me!  wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Tomcat (Reply 35):
It would be interesting if you could produce the same table with an added column for 744, just to appreciate how a 35+ year old design compares to a newer one... Sometimes, I've some difficulties to see what A346 has brought.

Thanks in advance,



Quoting A360 (Reply 36):
If you add the 744, add the 773ER too please

350-500 Seat Aircraft Data

350-500 Design Mission Data



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
Personally I don't count the 777F as a ULR pax plane, but that's probably just me!

Obviously... Calling the 77F the 777LRF is just silly.
And including it in the 772LR salles is even more!

The lattest developments on boeing's 777 program were the 773ER, 772LR and 777F... and those are all diferent airplanes!

You won't see the 777F sales on the 772LR list of sales... got that people??
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
Personally I don't count the 777F as a ULR pax plane, but that's probably just me!

You do well... cuz the 777F is undoubtedly not a ULR plane... If under 10000km of range is ULR than we would have thousands of ULR aircrafts flying today!  Wink
 
B2707SST
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 41):
Obviously... Calling the 77F the 777LRF is just silly.
And including it in the 772LR salles is even more!

Why? We can and should count the A380-800F in A380 sales. The 777F is based on the 777-200LR and is structurally virtually identical. The freighter obviously has nowhere near the passenger version's range on reference missions, but that's only because it is carrying much, much heavier payloads.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
A350
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:54 am

widebodyphotog,

thanks a lot for another set of great tables!
I have two questions: where did you find the SFC data and how did you calculate the performance data? Can you tell me a book or a website telling me how to compute a/c performance out of basic data like weight, SFC, drag etc.

Thanks!

A350
 
prebennorholm
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 30):
What has not been mentioned here is that while the increases in weight extend the range envelope of the A340-500/600, fuel burn and subsequently seat specific costs will increase as well. It's a trade off that comprimises economy of operation to meet the range capabilities of the competition.

...fuel burn and subsequently seat specific costs will increase as well

Example, 345 vs. 345HGW
1.5% longer range at MTOW with max fuel (9,050 vs. 9,200nm)
3.5% higher fuel capacity (174 vs. 179.8t)
20% higher payload at MTOW with max fuel (21 vs. 25.3t)

The HGW is a more capable plane, especially on ultra long range. And especially in the way that it can carry a substantially heavier payload with a slightly higher fuel burn.

Analyzing the numbers it is also quite evident that with the same payload on the same sector the HGW will also have a slightly lower fuel burn.

It is no revolution, but definitely an improvement.

With a little interpolation of the numbers we can for instance assume that on a 9,000nm sector a standard 345 can carry some 260 pax and the 345HGW can carry 313 pax spending 3.5% more fuel. Both assuming no cargo. That's a 16.3% reduction in seat/mile fuel burn.

On shorter sectors (even as long as 8,000 nm) the fuel burn gain will be much smaller. But it will still be there. But then on the same range the HGW will have somewhat higher cargo capability - at the expense of an up to 2% higher fuel burn when MTOW is utilized.

If in the 9,000nm example we assume that there are only 260 pax and no cargo to carry, then both planes will within a fraction of a percent burn the same fuel. But the HGW will have a substantial "hot & high" advantage over the standard version which will be valued by some airlines.

However we turn it the HGW is a more capable plane, but on all but extremely long ranges the gains are no more than 2-3-4%.
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Stitch
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
Personally I don't count the 777F as a ULR pax plane, but that's probably just me!



Quoting A360 (Reply 41):
Obviously... Calling the 77F the 777LRF is just silly.
And including it in the 772LR salles is even more!

An order is an order and it's money in the bank. Even if Boeing sells only a dozen 772LRs in passenger config, but a hundred in freighter config, Boeing will have made back the development costs and earned a profit on the model.

In such a case, the A345 would be the more popular passenger plane, having sold twice as many, but the 772LR would be the more popular model, having sold scores more, overall.

I am sure Airbus would rather sell 100 A345Fs (if such a model existed) and 10 A345Ps then just 25 A345Ps. Just as I am sure Boeing, while lamenting they can't sell 744Ps, are pleased they are selling 744Fs (and many to operators that are buying A388Ps, but have passed on the A388F at least for the time being).
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 43):
Why? We can and should count the A380-800F in A380 sales. The 777F is based on the 777-200LR and is structurally virtually identical.

The 777F is a 777-200 sale, not a 772LR sale.

I'm not discussing the sucess of the boeing's 777's latest improvements program (772LR/777F/773ER)... I'm just talking about a product alone.. the 772LR. Yes, it has similarities with the 777F, but it's diferent.

The success of the 772LR will be based on the sales of the 772LR sales, not the 772LR plus the 777F sales.
While the sucess of the 777-200 improvements(777F and 772LR) will be based on both the 772LR and 777F sales, and it may be a sucess, even if the 772LR sells only 5 aircraft.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 47):
The 777F is a 777-200 sale, not a 772LR sale.

That's nonsense. The 777F and 777-200LR shared R&D costs (with each other, and with the 777-300ER, by the way) and therefore any additional unit sales for any of the three models allows Boeing to pay off the development costs that much sooner.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
A360
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RE: 345/346 HGW Versions

Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 48):
That's nonsense. The 777F and 777-200LR shared R&D costs (with each other, and with the 777-300ER, by the way) and therefore any additional unit sales for any of the three models allows Boeing to pay off the development costs that much sooner.

I'm well aware of that, and have already responded to that... Read post 47.