RL757PVD
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Song: Mission Accomplished

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:20 pm

Despite what all of the song critics or "airline within airline" critics are saying, lets look at what song did for Delta:

Better seats (hopefully Song service will keep more legroom)
Quicker turn around times
Improved passenger service
Inflight entertainment
Simplified fare structure (not necessarily simplifares)
More point to point routes
Reduced 757 operating costs by 15%

Looking at that lists, its pretty much anything a passenger would ask for except for something like free meal service.

No other airline within an airline has contributed to the parent like song has for Delta, uptil now the only lesson learned was "lets never do that again"

Even those who criticise losses ( though the exact figures are not known), if Delta can reduce costs with lessons learned from song, and enhance revenue through songs features, then in the long run, the song experiments may have a positive impact on Delta's financials....therefore....Mission Accomplished.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
KKMolokai
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:22 am

Mission accomplished?

MISSION FAILED
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MidnightMike
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting KKMolokai (Reply 1):
Mission accomplished?

MISSION FAILED

Delta failed, Song was a success, so much so, that Delta is going to introduce some of things that they learned from Song across the mainline fleet.
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airzim
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Thread starter):
Better seats (hopefully Song service will keep more legroom)
Quicker turn around times
Improved passenger service
Inflight entertainment
Simplified fare structure (not necessarily simplifares)
More point to point routes
Reduced 757 operating costs by 15%

Funny other airlines were able to do all these things without spending $100 million launching an entirely new brand while confusing the market by flip flopping on business strategy (NE to Florida to later transcon) and alienating business fliers at the same time.
 
richierich
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting KKMolokai (Reply 1):
Mission accomplished?

MISSION FAILED

I agree with this. The funny thing about RL757PVD's comments are that it took a multi-million dollar loser of an airline-within-an-airline to get it "accomplished". Everyone of those things could have been done to DL mainline a long time ago - and now, in 2005, they'd probably have the whole fleet done instead of looking at a big write-off down the road. Song failed. It failed big time.
None shall pass!!!!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Delta failed, Song was a success, so much so, that Delta is going to introduce some of things that they learned from Song across the mainline fleet.

Agree. May be Delta never thinks that Song will improve costumers needs and even being a low cost airline, they show how is the customers willing for entertainment, better leg room, non stop service and also, how the 757 is a fantastic airliner.
I travel with Song two times, and several more with Delta and my opinion is that Song is a strong success!

Felipe
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redflyer
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting KKMolokai (Reply 1):
Mission accomplished?

MISSION FAILED



Quoting Richierich (Reply 4):
Song failed. It failed big time.

Has there ever been an airline-within-an-airline adventure that has proven successful? I realize Ted is still out there, but I'm not sure if it will last either. The problem with the airline-within-an-airline concept is you still have the same overhead, which means your cost-reduction capabilities are limited and you simply end up diluting the power of your existing brand.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Thread starter):
Despite what all of the song critics or "airline within airline" critics are saying, lets look at what song did for Delta:

Better seats (hopefully Song service will keep more legroom)
Quicker turn around times
Improved passenger service
Inflight entertainment
Simplified fare structure (not necessarily simplifares)
More point to point routes
Reduced 757 operating costs by 15%

Looking at that lists, its pretty much anything a passenger would ask for except for something like free meal service.

Actually, there's even a compelling argument that Song would have been popular if it supplanted DL's mainline domestic service everywhere except select transcons that support a full First Class product.

However, Chapter 11 gives DL the flexibility to integrate the many pluses of Song into the mainline service and avoid the "brand identity confusion" that sometimes comes from the airline within an airline concept - one that DL/Song had to some degree, but was more successful avoiding than others.

Quoting KKMolokai (Reply 1):
Mission accomplished?

MISSION FAILED

Opinion respected, but wholeheartedly disagreed with.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:01 am

For new brand strategies you can:

A) Implement it system wide
B) Use a business incubator, which song was

Testing new products/ideas systemwide is WAAY too costly

Long term song wouldnt have lasted anyways , and i think Delta had that thought in the beginning. Think of song as a 2-3 year R & D project, is really what it was.

A better product, compined with increased efficency like song had when implemented system wide will surely recoup songs losses, which were a necessary expense, as it would have cost ALOT more to do all these changes to Delta as a whole. Song allowed DL to see what worked, what didnt work, and what could be improved on a small scale before the costly large scale implentation.

Delta gained alot of valuable information from song, something which cannot be said for the likes of Metrojet, Continental Lite...and probably TED...etc....
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:11 am

Song achieved its mission alright. It successfully drove away higher-yielding business customers. Since the launch of Song in NYC, DL has seen significant erosion in its business clientele in NYC....particularly on the LGA-Florida runs and the JFK transcons.

Sure, the once-a-year leisure flyer loved Song. Unfortunately, DL can't make money off these people.

While many of Song's customer service items were nice, Song did little except turn Delta into the bargain-hunter vacation airline. However, DL's cost structure is too high to be a leisure only airline. Hence, Song is being killed and a handful of the customer service items will be carried over.

DL finally realized what many had been saying for years (myself included) that catering to the leisure crowd is a recipe for disaster.
 
richierich
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
DL finally realized what many had been saying for years (myself included) that catering to the leisure crowd is a recipe for disaster.

I agree with that part, PNS. But how exactly do you say that and then say that Song achieved its mission? Can't have it both ways.....
None shall pass!!!!
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Delta failed, Song was a success, so much so, that Delta is going to introduce some of things that they learned from Song across the mainline fleet.

My sentiments exactly. It will enhance revenue, customer service and fleet utilization. Now if they can get labor costs and fuel under control........
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Kahala777
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting KKMolokai (Reply 1):
Mission accomplished?

MISSION FAILED

You need to re-read the press relaease that Delta Airlines offered late last week in regards to Song.

The mission was more than accomplished!

Quoting RL757PVD (Thread starter):
Better seats (hopefully Song service will keep more legroom)
Quicker turn around times
Improved passenger service
Inflight entertainment
Simplified fare structure (not necessarily simplifares)
More point to point routes
Reduced 757 operating costs by 15%

Great Point - Delta accomplished what they wanted!

Quoting Airzim (Reply 3):
Funny other airlines were able to do all these things without spending $100 million launching an entirely new brand while confusing the market by flip flopping on business strategy (NE to Florida to later transcon) and alienating business fliers at the same time.

What other established airlines were able to do it?

What other full service airlines in the U.S. were able to do it?

Now do tell...

How did Delta Airlines alientate business fliers on routes such as JFK-FLL, JFK-LAS, BDL-LAX, SFO-FLL, and LAS-BOS?

How did Delta Airlines confuse the market?

How do you confuse a market?


KAHALA777
 
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 3):
Funny other airlines were able to do all these things without spending $100 million launching an entirely new brand while confusing the market by flip flopping on business strategy (NE to Florida to later transcon) and alienating business fliers at the same time.



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
Song achieved its mission alright. It successfully drove away higher-yielding business customers. Since the launch of Song in NYC, DL has seen significant erosion in its business clientele in NYC....particularly on the LGA-Florida runs and the JFK transcons.

Bingo and bingo.

Hey, at least DL has the advantage of Ch 11 to regroup and backpedal from the Song debacle without it looking like a disaster.

They get to feign victory all while wringing their hands thinking cripes, we got lucky this didn't take us down. Stop the bleeding now, use the info learned and hopefully--perhaps--help transform DL mainline into something desirable, competitive and profitable.
 
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
Song achieved its mission alright. It successfully drove away higher-yielding business customers.

Who were already booking away anyway thanks to DL's slow pace to implement lower Y fares. Song didn't cause them to book away - B6 and WN did.

Another problem for DL - which Song solved - was the the volume the Northeast to Florida leisure travelers on garbage fares overflying DL's high-cost ATL hub. DL "sorted the trash" so to speak and put the low-cost crowd on a separate subset of flights that were geared solely toward that cost model. Anyone buying Y fares on it was gravy.

You could also argue that Song enabled DL to not lose as much as they would have by competing with B6 and WN using mainline service straight up, while maintaining market share AND exposing their overall system product (DL and Song combined marketing) to a larger audience than they normally would have otherwise.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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airzim
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
Quoting RL757PVD (Thread starter):
Better seats (hopefully Song service will keep more legroom)
Quicker turn around times
Improved passenger service
Inflight entertainment
Simplified fare structure (not necessarily simplifares)
More point to point routes
Reduced 757 operating costs by 15%

Great Point - Delta accomplished what they wanted!

Quoting Airzim (Reply 3):
Funny other airlines were able to do all these things without spending $100 million launching an entirely new brand while confusing the market by flip flopping on business strategy (NE to Florida to later transcon) and alienating business fliers at the same time.

What other established airlines were able to do it?

Continental, Air New Zealand, American.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
How did Delta Airlines alientate business fliers on routes such as JFK-FLL, JFK-LAS, BDL-LAX, SFO-FLL, and LAS-BOS?

No First class upgrades. Despite some misconceptions on this Board, MCO and LAS drive high yield business. Conferences coupled with business migrating south and west there are plenty of business men/women that expect a different level of service and are willing to pay for it.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
How did Delta Airlines confuse the market?

Song was conceived to compete with JetBlue. NE to Florida markets. Then moved to transcon. So what market are you catering to? Leisure Florida or high yield business? Oh wait you don't know because the business plan is failing.

In addition the Song product was better than mainline. One day you take a flight from BOS to ATL fly DL and pay $400. The next week you fly BOS-MCO with better service/seats/IFE and pay $200. Which is it?
 
Kahala777
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 15):
Continental, Air New Zealand, American

Huh?

I didnt know that NZ was a American airline!

Continental and American.... Their domestic products are nothing like that of Song. When was the last time you were on a AA MD-80 with IFE?

Quoting Airzim (Reply 15):
No First class upgrades

Upgrades..... Not full fare paying!
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:17 am

Song was a success...I see many businesspeople on the airline out of BDL, because they have no choice...the first class will lure more of these people. As long as they keep the "former" song routes...song will be a success...Delta will be a failure if they drop the BDL routes!
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
Kahala777
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 17):
Delta will be a failure if they drop the BDL routes!

Delta Airlines will not fail if they drop a few flights from Hartford....

The drama on this site!


KAHALA777
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):
DL "sorted the trash" so to speak and put the low-cost crowd on a separate subset of flights that were geared solely toward that cost model.

Isn't that what DL Express was supposed to do as well?

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
How did Delta Airlines alientate business fliers on routes such as JFK-FLL, JFK-LAS, BDL-LAX, SFO-FLL, and LAS-BOS?

Because business flyers want amenities like pre-boarding and first class upgrades. Even routes like JFK-FLL and SFO-FLL have business travelers on them...it's not all leisure.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
How did Delta Airlines confuse the market?

Song was designed to serve routes with mostly leisure traffic. However, DL then put Song on routes that had much higher business traffic (JFK-SEA, JFK-SFO, JFK-LAX). This made no sense and only served to annoy business travelers.

It's also very confusing that DL was offering its best coach product to mostly leisure travelers, while offering a subpar coach product on business routes (LGA-ATL, DCA-ATL, ATL-DFW, etc).
 
611ATL
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:28 am

No worries, I don't think the BDL flights will go anywhere. They do quite well for Delta/Song (not sure about that LAX flight...hear mixed reports on it).

H
 
richierich
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 17):
As long as they keep the "former" song routes...song will be a success...Delta will be a failure if they drop the BDL routes!

I highly doubt that is true Flairport. The BDL flights were such a small part of their overall business.
Either way, it didn't work. As a product, no doubt it was good but from a financial perspective, it was doomed to fail.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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airzim
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 16):
Quoting Airzim (Reply 15):
Continental, Air New Zealand, American

Huh?

I didnt know that NZ was a American airline!

Continental and American.... Their domestic products are nothing like that of Song. When was the last time you were on a AA MD-80 with IFE?

Quoting Airzim (Reply 15):
No First class upgrades

Upgrades..... Not full fare paying!

First off, I was pointing out that other carriers have successfully transformed their products without spending $100 million in a failed venture.

Secondly, while CO and AA don't have a comprehensive product like SONG, they do have IFE on many aircraft that fly longer segments. In addition it is important to point out that IFE has ZERO yield affect to carriers. It may enhance your customer service but it is a nice to have, not obligatory. That's why you haven't seen Delta announcing reequipping the 767 international fleet with IFE's. Plus individual IFE is heavy, costly, cause maintenance issues, and can cause bad in flight experiences when its broken.

Lastly, whether paid First or not, passengers on Y and H fares have expectations set by years of airlines pandering to them, rightly or wrongly upgrades are part of that expectation. Road warriors don't care about IFE, they want comfy seats and priority seating. It breeds loyalty. While you may argue that the most valuable passenger is one who buys a First Class ticket, I would suggest that repeat business, with the occasional cheap seat flown in here and there are vastly more important for the carrier. In fact I've seen the internal studies that prove that.
 
stlgph
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:40 am

so, where are all the pro Southwest fans out there to argue that Song was a success?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
PVD757
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:41 am

If Song was so successful, they wouldn't get rid of it, they would introduce it more with the rest of the 757s that were not converted. They could not compete with jetBlue, they got hammered on a cost basis and they lost money on pretty much all the routes to Florida from the Northeast. Delta learned their lesson the hard way unfortunately.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:08 am

There is no doubt that DL learned some valuable lessons from the Song experiment.......the most important one is that pax (regardless of the fare that they are paying) do expect some type of reasonable service and some ammenities on their flights. Airlines like JetBlue raised the expectation level and DL responded by creating Song, which is a very good product that pax like, DL did accomplish that with Song......Song was a far better and more competitive offering than the Delta Express experiment which was very lacking in service and comfort. Delta also learned that a F class product is required to keep frequent flyers happy, the benefit that frequent flyers appreciate the most is that F class upgrade, and customers object when their favorite perk is taken away......this is a situation that the airlines created themselves and one cannot simply say that its too bad for the FF, if they want F class, then pay for it....the airlines are stuck with this situation.

Song made most sense on the Northeast US to Florida routes for which it was intitially created....it made less sense on the transcons, but I assume DL thought that Song could better compete with JetBlue on those routes. Was this a mistake by DL, maybe.....DL was reacting to the marketplace and simply trying to figure out the best way to compete. Not every decision is the right one, and its easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.....I will say that DL pissed off many European travellers that would fly from Europe to JFK in BizElite and then on to their final destination on a Song aircraft and ended up sitting in coach. Yes, maybe those pax could have or should have flown via ATL, but they didnt for whatever reason and DL may have lost some valuable premium pax who now fly with other carriers....I am not speaking in the abstract, I know of numerous cases where this became a real issue (I am talking corporate clients.)

My key question is how will the passenger respond to all of this? Delta did not make a lot of friends with Delta Express, they did win many over with the Song, now Delta must convince Song pax that the Delta product on leisure routes will match that of Song. It is confusing......a lot of passengers on Song flights knew that it was nothing more than a Delta product, but I am sure some did not. Delta invested a lot of time, money and effort to convince the flying public that Song was something special and apart, now Delta must go back and say.....forget Song, come back and fly Delta because we have improved our product and incorporated the lessons that we have learned from Song. Will the public buy this? We shall see. In any event, there will be some confusion.

I do realize that many pax on the leisure routes which Song services are price driven....they are looking for the lowest fare and a reasonable schedule.....and many could care less if the airplane is green and says Song or red, white and blue and says Delta......but if it were that simple, why did Delta go to so much trouble to create the Song product and brand in the first place for leisure travellers? Dont get me wrong, I really hope that DL can work all of this out, I do not want to lose DL on the Florida routes, but the future now depends on Mr and Ms Average Traveller and how they react to all of this.
 
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mariner
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:15 am

I thought the mission was to fight back against the competing LCC's.

JetBlue is still there. And gosh - even Indy Air is still flying.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
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redflyer
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:31 am

Has anyone considered the fact that perhaps Song, despite whatever successes it may have experienced, is having the plug pulled because of Gerald Grinstein? I remember reading an article in, IIRC, the WSJ a little over a year ago stating that he wasn't sure of the viability or the business benefits of having Song, but that he would leave things as-is for the time being.

Maybe with CH11 underway this was his way of killing off something he never believed in from the start?
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 24):
If Song was so successful, they wouldn't get rid of it, they would introduce it more with the rest of the 757s that were not converted.

Though in a sense...that is what they are doing.... just no lime green airplanes. In a way Delta is sort of "roping song back in", song will still exisit just with first class seats, no tooty-fruity colored seats, and no lime green airplanes.

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 24):
Delta learned their lesson the hard way unfortunately.

lesson learned was song delivers what people want, and the response from customers was just that. I recall several awards where song was ranked simmialr to B6.

Delta did learn a good lesson about competition as well. Song competed with B6 much better than DL mainline would have.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
I thought the mission was to fight back against the competing LCC's.

JetBlue is still there. And gosh - even Indy Air is still flying.

Though both are now posting losses!
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
And gosh - even Indy Air is still flying.

Scary, isn't it?

DL tried to create another "airline within an airline" like CO Lite, MetroJet, etc. They failed becuase of costs. Song is going away becuase of costs. As mentioned above, selling Song product that offers more at half the price? What sense does that make? Like Ted. You're flying a UA A320, with UA crews, UA fuel, UA everything, just painted white with a yellow tail and half the fare. Makes perfect sense to me.

When will these people figure it out...
This is the Last Stop.
 
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mariner
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 29):
Though both are now posting losses!

JetBlue has not - yet - posted a loss. They may, this coming quarter, but that is the future and I can't predict that.

The point about Indy is that they have never made a profit - they are in deep financial doo-doo - and they are still flying.

US Airways is still flying, and they were supposed to be at death's door when Song started.

So I am not sure what it is that Song has achieved.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-10-31 20:06:31]

[Edited 2005-10-31 20:07:33]
aeternum nauta
 
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csturdiv
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting KKMolokai (Reply 1):
Mission accomplished?

MISSION FAILED

Wow, insightful argument.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):
DL "sorted the trash" so to speak and put the low-cost crowd on a separate subset of flights that were geared solely toward that cost model.

Isn't that what DL Express was supposed to do as well?

Not entirely, no. And they used far smaller equipment whose CASM wasn't friendly to this role.

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 24):
If Song was so successful, they wouldn't get rid of it, they would introduce it more with the rest of the 757s that were not converted.

You're forgetting that Song was able to operate under conditions and labor rates (save for the pilots) that were far lower than DL mainline. Since DL's costs have come down and will continue to do so under Chapter 11, they'll now be closely in line with the Song unit.

If both eventually have the same or similar unit costs, then there's no sense in maintaining a separate sub-brand - and THAT is what's happening here. They're incorporating the Song service that has already proven a hit with the customers to DL mainline and eliminating the cost of a separate sub-brand in the process.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
So I am not sure what it is that Song has achieved.



Quoting RL757PVD (Thread starter):
Better seats (hopefully Song service will keep more legroom)
Quicker turn around times
Improved passenger service
Inflight entertainment
Simplified fare structure (not necessarily simplifares)
More point to point routes
Reduced 757 operating costs by 15%

What else do you want other than good free meals?

These things dont come free, why spend the money to test it system wide whenyou can test it small scale and cherry-pick what works best to implement.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
bigdrewfl
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 29):
Though both are now posting losses!

JetBlue has not - yet - posted a loss. They may, this coming quarter, but that is the future and I can't predict that.

The point about Indy is that they have never made a profit - they are in deep financial doo-doo - and they are still flying.

US Airways is still flying, and they wree supposed to be at death's door when Song started.

So I am not sure what it is that Song has achieved.

cheers

mariner

I agree 100%
 
n471wn
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:30 am

wow talk about the epitome of rationalization----SONG was a failure by any standard and the people responsible for it should be fired at once---these frequent marketing mis-steps by Delta have made it the laughing stock of the industry---Delta has wonderful and hard working employees and simply stupid and incompetent management. They have made Delta into an airline tragedy.
 
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airzim
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 34):
These things dont come free, why spend the money to test it system wide whenyou can test it small scale and cherry-pick what works best to implement.

Spend $100 million to test it is small scale? Cherry pick what works best?

So let me get this right, you have to spend that much money to figure out that people like TV's in their seats, turn planes quicker, improve service, and have cheaper prices. Wow rocket science is fun!
 
dartland
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:39 am

Why are so many people saying that Song is going away?

That's like saying "America West is gone now", when they are the ones that did the buying, their route network is still going, and their headquarters in Tempe is bursting at the seams. It's simply an excercise in branding.

Yes, DL did alienate some business travelers (although I'm a business traveler myself and I know know PLENTY of people who prefer Song to anything because of seats and IFE) -- so they're fixing it: Taking the best of song and adding F, and rolling it out across the system.

Why did DL start Song on the NYC-FL routes? Because it was losing out to B6 -- business travelers too! Business travelers were going to B6 because of cheap fares, convenience, and (despite what some of you are saying) good IFE. Song one-upped them by providing all of that, with SkyTeam FF program, and the ability to connect to F/BizElite class flights.

DL is using bankruptcy to do exactly what they should do: Hold off creditors while they spend cash rolling out the best of Song systemwide -- they still have a long way to go on costs, but meanwhile, they are going to turn into America's preferred domestic carrier nationwide. They simply cannot do all of that AND keep the Song brand name -- it'd be too confusing -- it's time to use Song goodwill to benefit the 75 year old Delta brand.
 
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mariner
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 34):
These things dont come free, why spend the money to test it system wide whenyou can test it small scale and cherry-pick what works best to implement.

JetBlue didn't start a test airline to tell them if their model worked. And I am not sure why you need to "test" quicker turn around times with a seperate airline, Southwest has been doing it for years.

Even now, Delta will not be incorporating the Song things system wide. Will there be PTV's on the MD's?

I have no problem with Song, I wish Delta nothing but the best, I have only the fondest memories of my flights on Delta - it was a Delta f/a who gave me the cure for a terrible moonshine hangover.

But by saying that Song service is better - which it may be - Delta appears to be saying that Delta service is not so good. First law of business - protect the main brand.

How much has Song cost? And what could have been achieved without that expenditure?

I believe - and heck, I could be wrong - that Song, which started with Mr. Mullin, became a distraction to Delta's main purpose.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting Dbba (Reply 36):
wow talk about the epitome of rationalization----SONG was a failure by any standard and the people responsible for it should be fired at once---these frequent marketing mis-steps by Delta have made it the laughing stock of the industry---Delta has wonderful and hard working employees and simply stupid and incompetent management. They have made Delta into an airline tragedy.

In the future it'd be nice to back your statement up with something other than an oppinion....
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
richierich
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 37):
Spend $100 million to test it is small scale? Cherry pick what works best?

So let me get this right, you have to spend that much money to figure out that people like TV's in their seats, turn planes quicker, improve service, and have cheaper prices. Wow rocket science is fun!



Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
JetBlue didn't start a test airline to tell them if their model worked. And I am not sure why you need to "test" quicker turn around times with a seperate airline, Southwest has been doing it for years.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
How much has Song cost? And what could have been achieved without that expenditure?

Finally some common sense on here - People that speak my language!
None shall pass!!!!
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
JetBlue didn't start a test airline to tell them if their model worked. And I am not sure why you need to "test" quicker turn around times with a seperate airline, Southwest has been doing it for years.

I agree, but Delta cant just put out a memo to all employees saying "effective tommorrow all airplanes need to be turned 15 min faster for all 3,000+ flights" The quicker turns developed by DL under Operation Clockwork involved many lessons learned from song.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
But by saying that Song service is better - which it may be - Delta appears to be saying that Delta service is not so good. First law of business - protect the main brand.

I agree as well, with song being a better product, DL cannot match it, before song became too distant from DL, they had to bring it back in. Now they are incorporating what made song popular with the main brand to create a better product.

The only thing I still dont understand is how so many people here can criticize Delta and Song for adapting to the changing times and offering what the passengers want. Times are changing and the airline business is not what it was even 5 or 10 years ago. It is going to be a VERY rude awakening for airlines like NW who continue to offer the older product.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
How much has Song cost?

Not sure exactly...but the $100 million # has been toossed about which is only 1% of the 10 billion DL lost since 9/11, meaning there were are alot more rerious issues.

Though airlines like B6 and F9 did it first, 5+ years from now we will be looking back and seeing how song and DL were the first legacies to respond to the changing market.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 42):
Though airlines like B6 and F9 did it first, 5+ years from now we will be looking back and seeing how song and DL were the first legacies to respond to the changing market.

Yeah when they're gone it will be taught in Econ 101-How to Make Your Company in the Red Hemmorage Even More Money
This is the Last Stop.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 43):
Yeah when they're gone

When they are gone it will be a sad day since airlines like UA and NW who have done abolutely nothing other than abuse their employees to change their business will be already gone as well.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
richierich
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 42):
I agree, but Delta cant just put out a memo to all employees saying "effective tommorrow all airplanes need to be turned 15 min faster for all 3,000+ flights" The quicker turns developed by DL under Operation Clockwork involved many lessons learned from song.

That maybe so, but surely it didn't take $100M and a new division to figure that out, did it?

Song was not created as a marketing experiment. No way... it was designed to be a stand alone brand and it failed. As a product, it is fine, but in order to compete against the LCCs, it couldn't.
None shall pass!!!!
 
richierich
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 43):
Yeah when they're gone it will be taught in Econ 101-How to Make Your Company in the Red Hemmorage Even More Money

Southwest too? I think your class instructor should be imprisoned. B6 and F9 aren't going anywhere.
None shall pass!!!!
 
D950
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:15 am

As Song is "absorbed" into DL, are the flight attendants also to be absorbed, or let go? On the whole I found the Song people a tad more customer friendly, not bashing the mainline crews, but it was noticeable to me anyway.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
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airzim
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 42):
Though airlines like B6 and F9 did it first, 5+ years from now we will be looking back and seeing how song and DL were the first legacies to respond to the changing market.

This is going too far. Delta has responded to the changing market by trying an airline-within-an-airline concept for the 2nd time despite UA, CO and US all trying and failing at it before.

How can you tell anyone that DL is the first of the legacies to respond to changing market conditions? I think HP and secondly AA deserve most of that title.

Again, $100 million to put TV's in seats, turn planes faster, pay crew less, Buy on Board, and have friendly crew is not earth shattering.

In fact Simplifares is about the worst thing Delta did, which they've recognized and are rolling back. Expansion to more profitable markets in Europe, well CO beat them there. Which has also had the consequence of potentially trashing yields in Europe just as DL has done in the domestic market.

So I'm still unsure where DL has been either innovative, showed leadership, and most of all profit from any of these ventures? In 5 years they'll be asking, "Delta who?"
 
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mariner
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RE: Song: Mission Accomplished

Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 42):
The only thing I still dont understand is how so many people here can criticize Delta and Song

Human nature. The criticism is inevitable and part of it is fuelled by people seeming to put Song on a pedestal.

The puzzle - for me - is this: there have been several threads about how great Song was, and that Song service will live on.

I have not seen one thread about how great the new Delta service is going to be.

Look at it this way - if Delta introduces the Song PTV's in domestic coach, even if only on select flights, I think it will be the first US legacy airline to do so.

And that is worth shouting about.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta

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