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aloha73g
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Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:16 am

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...=/20051101/BUSINESS/511010312/1071
http://starbulletin.com/2005/11/01/business/story01.html

Highlights:

Fares listed are round trip and range depending upon the class of flight.

Honolulu to Kahului: $86 to $171
Honolulu to Lihue: $86 to $171
Honolulu to Kona: $93 to $171
Honolulu to Hilo: $93 to $171

"Mesa's Hawai'i subsidiary, which has yet to be named, will target Hawai'i residents who want to fly between islands — rather than tourists — when it begins operations in the first few months of 2006, Ornstein said.

"Because we don't have any long-haul business to feed our flights, we're going to focus on the local Hawaiian passenger," he said. "We want the local folks."

Mesa will begin by flying eight 50-seat, Bombardier CRJ200 jet aircraft that are considered to be expensive and inefficient to operate by airline industry standards. But within 18 months, Ornstein hopes to upgrade to 90- or 100-seat Bombardier jets."

"Ornstein said he is undecided between two names for the new airline and wasn't ready to announce his choice yet.

"In talking to some of the people in the Hawaii travel industry, one of the things that came to us loud and clear was that we shouldn't use a Hawaiian name," Ornstein said. "They said it has too many connotations from other carriers that have failed. They encouraged us to look at names that express what we're trying to do -- which is to provide low cost, high-frequency service -- and to tie it into Hawaii but not directly."


Interesting....

I think Aloha and Hawaiian are going to fight hard and eventually win. Aloha has already changed its HNL-OGG/LIH-HNL flight schedule so that they leave at least hourly on the hour (starting today). Seeing as Mesa wants to go after the local traffic, I think people are going to band around the local carriers (AQ, HA and WP).

Let the fun begin!!

Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
L104me
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:25 am

With the range of the CRJ's being around 1500 miles, and Hawaii being about 2500 miles from the West Coast, how will the planes get there?

What type of route will they fly so they be able to make the trip?

I know when Hawaiian flew their new 717's they had to install some type of temporary fuel tanks to make the trip.

Does anyone know?

Just curious!
 
drerx7
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:29 am

This carrier will last maybe a year--this is reminiscent of their foray into Fort Worth Meacam airport. The operating cost of the RJ will eat them alive.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
HPRamper
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting L104me (Reply 1):
I know when Hawaiian flew their new 717's they had to install some type of temporary fuel tanks to make the trip.

Does anyone know?

That's one possibility right there. There have also been instances of partially-assembled aircraft being ferried inside larger cargo planes, and even on ships.
 
drerx7
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:48 am

More than likely they will be fitted with fuel tanks in the cabin to make the trip. This is the most bonehead startup idea this year.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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mbm3
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:58 am

I think if you do a search on the photo database you can find shots of the temporary fuel tanks strapped to the floor in the passenger compartment.
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mbm3
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:01 am

Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:07 am

How is the local market for HA and AQ? Do those inter island flights make money?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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mbm3
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
How is the local market for HA and AQ? Do those inter island flights make money?

Based on the loads of the flights I have taken inter-island, I cant imagine that they are profitable on these routes.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:19 am

Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 8):
Based on the loads of the flights I have taken inter-island, I cant imagine that they are profitable on these routes.

Most of them are in the mid 70s to mid 80s year round but I don't know if the yields are any good. I imagine they're a bit like the Northeast shuttle operations which are reasonably full but lose money.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
EMBQA
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RE: Mesa Hawaii:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting L104me (Reply 1):
With the range of the CRJ's being around 1500 miles, and Hawaii being about 2500 miles from the West Coast, how will the planes get there?

Keep in mind those numbers are normally figured at max passenger load. These will be flying with no passengers, so the range is greatly increased. There is also a good chance they'll get tanked.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:17 am

As for profitability, both AQ and HA have been marginally profitable on interisland flights over the past year or two. AQ has posted 7 or 8 consecutive months of operating profits and HA has been doing reasonably well also.

They will NOT be undercut...the fares will be matched, as they have been for all previous competitors. I will also expect alot of advertising emphasing AQ and HA's....and WP's....local roots and longstanding relationships with the people of Hawai'i.

Loyalty/Local-ness will win out most likely and Mesa will have to close up, especially since Mesa is going after locals and not tourists.

That's my guess.

Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
LUVRSW
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:49 am

How did they get those tanks in there? Does the tail or nose open up?
 
Lono
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 12):
How did they get those tanks in there? Does the tail or nose open up?

These are fuel bladders..... not ridged at all.....
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
ha763
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting Lono (Reply 13):
Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 12):
How did they get those tanks in there? Does the tail or nose open up?

These are fuel bladders..... not ridged at all.....

They are metal (steel) tanks, not bladders. I've personally seen and touched them at HA's maintenance hanger. They are not that wide and can fit through the door.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:57 am

Interesting that no one has mentioned cargo capacity in any of these discussions. The cargo capacity of the small jets is pretty sad, and I don't think too many people are going to be happy when told their luggage will be delayed because it can't fit on the plane.

That being said, there's a lot of loyalty to the "hometown" airlines - AQ and HA, whatever their faults, are Hawai'ian airlines, and Mesa is not.

Final thought: On days where there's no trade wind blowing (and I have been in Hawai'i on days like this!), what is take-off capacity of the CRJ's going to be like?
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phoenixX2
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:47 pm

Just some thoughts.

Quoting Aloha73g (Thread starter):
I think Aloha and Hawaiian are going to fight hard and eventually win.

MESA is well diversified in the domestic Mainland market. They will make money on the Mainland to keep this operation going, even if it is losing money. HA and AQ don't have that ability. I really can't agree on this statement. I think Lorenzo Jr. or I mean Ornstein made mention to this.

Quoting Aloha73g (Reply 11):
Loyalty/Local-ness will win out most likely and Mesa will have to close up, especially since Mesa is going after locals and not tourists.

Can you say "Smoke Screen". Hawaii is the hottest tourist destination right now. I find it interesting that US (hp) is starting service on 16Dec to HNL and OGG. They start LIH and KOA in Apr06. With the known working relationship with MESA, I just find that interesting that the start time (MESAs) is about the same. Just remember that they could join the Star Alliance and get enough conx activity from US, UA, AC (from the East) and Air New Zealand, ANA, Asiana and Singapore Air (from the West). Then... would they really need the locals. By then AQ will be gone, who knows about HA. The locals will then need them. I am just saying, this time they did their homework.

Rgds
 
fokkerf28
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:59 pm

Quoting PhoenixX2 (Reply 16):
Can you say "Smoke Screen". Hawaii is the hottest tourist destination right now. I find it interesting that US (hp) is starting service on 16Dec to HNL and OGG. They start LIH and KOA in Apr06. With the known working relationship with MESA, I just find that interesting that the start time (MESAs) is about the same. Just remember that they could join the Star Alliance and get enough conx activity from US, UA, AC (from the East) and Air New Zealand, ANA, Asiana and Singapore Air (from the West). Then... would they really need the locals. By then AQ will be gone, who knows about HA. The locals will then need them. I am just saying, this time they did their homework.

I agree completely. Mesa have done there home work and utilizing the crj to break into the market will allow them to keep operating costs low. Remember AQ is still using inefficient 737-200 inter island. Watch out here comes Mesa!!
 
Lono
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 14):
They are metal (steel) tanks, not bladders. I've personally seen and touched them at HA's maintenance hanger. They are not that wide and can fit through the door.

Cool!... age speaking here the 737 I've seen go over were bladders that a company rented to airlines for this purpose.... probably still goes both ways..
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
UA_727
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:56 pm

The skepticism regarding Mesa's move into the Hawaiian market makes me laugh. Is it a risk? Of course. Is it even more risky due to a lack of experience in this particular market? Absolutely. But seriously, we're talking about a consistently profitable carrier here, that is growing. What, pray tell, then do YOU think Mesa should be focusing on? Beefing up it's already saturated domestic physique? This is a change of scenery that no other continental US carrier has really ventured into (at least to the extent planned by Mesa). Mesa has grown by respecting and adhering to the axiom, "the greater the risk, the greater the return." Due to their relatively low operating costs, it has been a great business model for the airline.

As far as this notion of Hawaiian loyalty, well, I'm a bit indifferent. Maybe I could fathom this concept a little for the very start of Mesa's operations, but remember; Ornstein is beginning service with aircraft of only fifty seats. Even if loads on the other two main carriers have not been the best, it will not take too much to fill the planes up and make routes profitable, even if yields are low. After market penetration and a strong presence for the first year-and-a half, Ornstein will send out the -900's. Over time, I question the fortitude of this so-called "Hawaiian loyalty strong-hold." At this point, if the extra capacity of the -900, coupled with the operating efficiencies of the type, do not create consistent black numbers, then, perhaps the writing on the wall will begin, and the fate of this venture may be questionable. But even then, Mesa isn't out much. As aforementioned by "PhoenixX2," the company has more than enough stable diversification and its share of airline contracts in the mainline U.S. scene to recompense for any losses incurred by this venture. Even if a significant investment, YV's Hawaiian venture is gravy for them. The barriers to entry in this market are obviously insignificant, and Mesa has the assets to successfully diversify in this related direction.

Is it a surprising move? Sure. A move that is unwise? I, for one, would disagree with this notion, and go out on a limb and call the move brilliant. Also unmentioned, is that Mesa may have more operating profit potential in Hawaii, as it is operating independently, free from a contractual code-sharing agreement. All in all, I'm excited to see what unfolds. No matter the outcome, if anyone can do it, it's definitely Mesa.

Salute,

-UA-
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:58 pm

AQ and HA have the very lucrative trans-pac routes to subsidize their interisland operations. The question of what terminal space they will use has yet to be answered. If they are in the 'Island Air Terminal' mainland connections will be beyond inconvenient.

Even if Mesa can afford to run up heavy losses....why would they? They are obligated to their stockholders to make business decisions which result in profit. AQ and HA will defend their turf. The people of Hawai'i will stand behind them.

People/companies underestimate the differences between doing business on the mainland and in Hawai'i. It is a completely different culture. If Mesa treats their Hawai'i workers the way they treat their mainland workers they will get ALOT of bad press and a bad reputation. Remember that Hawai'i is one of the most unionized states...companies who treat workers bad will not do well here. Many sucessful businesses have tried to invade industries which are dominated by local companies (i.e. Bank of America) and have failed.

-Aloha!
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ual747den
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:20 pm

It doesn't matter how the locals feel if Mesa signs with STAR. They will instantly have a huge majority of the tourist market and will hurt the Hawaiian airlines tremendously. Soon there after they will be able to lower prices and the local airlines wont be able to compete. If they do compete they will loose money and die. This of course is not going to happen over a short period of time but could happen over the next several years. Mesa has a great opportunity here and can come out a real winner. I think that Mesa has done their homework and will make it happen.
Hawaii isn't all that different from everywhere else in the world, we try to be loyal but there are things that are just more important than loyalty. For most of us cost and convince is it!
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UA_727
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:35 pm

Quote:
Even if Mesa can afford to run up heavy losses....why would they? They are obligated to their stockholders to make business decisions which result in profit. AQ and HA will defend their turf. The people of Hawai'i will stand behind them.

I imagine this move is to please stockholders and other various shareholders involved in Mesa's operations. Seriously dude, my question remains - if not Hawaii, then what? If the company is solid enough with sufficient assets, there is no reason that they shouldn't attempt to diverssify. Coke has no problems explaining to their shareholders that they will attempt to create a new beverage that will feature the flavor of vanilla or a twist of lime. Why? Because they're not giving up their recipe for Coca Cola Classic in the stead of this new concept. People will still drink Coke, even if the lime or vanilla lines do not do well. If, however, these new flavors entice additional customers (either by the customers viewing the new drinks as substitue products or if the new flavors break consumers' homogenety of cola products), then the diverssified product is worth pursuing. I imagine, while cola and airlines are two completely different ballparks, that the same concept is being considered here. Trust me - if shareholders had a serious problem with Ornstein bringing Mesa to Hawaii, they would have done something about it.

 Wink

-UA-
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MaverickM11
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:39 pm

Quoting Aloha73g (Reply 11):
especially since Mesa is going after locals and not tourists.

nevermind the fact that Mesa runs a sh!tty operation...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:58 pm

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 14):
Quoting Lono (Reply 13):
Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 12):
How did they get those tanks in there? Does the tail or nose open up?

These are fuel bladders..... not ridged at all.....

They are metal (steel) tanks, not bladders. I've personally seen and touched them at HA's maintenance hanger. They are not that wide and can fit through the door.

 checkmark 

Story in Airliners Mag a while back when HA flew the 717s to Hawaii . . . pretty in-depth on how they were rigged . . . good read. Sorry, my copy of magazine is at home, so I can't give month/yr.
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 21):
It doesn't matter how the locals feel if Mesa signs with STAR. They will instantly have a huge majority of the tourist market and will hurt the Hawaiian airlines tremendously.

I don't think Star is going to take in Mesa....why would they?? United has been codesharing in one form or another with AQ for over 20 years. Hawaiian codeshares with AA, NW, CO, and AS. Also, as I previously said, Mesa will most liklely be in the comuter terminal which means leaving security and taking a long, very crappy bus ride or walk.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 21):
Hawaii isn't all that different from everywhere else in the world, we try to be loyal but there are things that are just more important than loyalty.

The point is that Hawai'i is VERY VERY VERY different from anywhere else in the US. I have read books and articles about it. It is something that is hard to quantify or understand if aren't from Hawai'i. Trust me when I say that if Mesa tries to run their operation the way they do on the mainland (employee relations) they will do very bad in Hawai'i. Its a different culture....if you aren't from Hawai'i you'll have to trust me on that. Local people will do alot to keep stuff local...especially if its a 'mean' outside company trying to replace good local jobs (with AQ and HA) with low paying ones.

Check a summary of the article "Local Style for Lolos" which appeared in Hawai'i Business Magazine...it outlines some of the differences that exist in Hawai'i with regard to business:
http://hawaiifilmoffice.blogspot.com/2005/08/culture-clash.html

-Aloha!
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F27XXX
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:23 pm

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 2):
The operating cost of the RJ will eat them alive.

Not when their flight deck crews make less than shift managers at Wal-Mart!

As long as they dont use the name MESA - -- because I'm sure that even all the way out in Hawaii, people have heard the stories.

All they need to do is replace the 'A' in MESA with another 'S' .... theres the name!
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PDXFlyBoy
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:45 pm

If you are not from Hawaii, not familiar with how business is run in the 50th State, then do your homework before making statement you cannot support.

I do give credit to Lorenzo Jr., a wannabe, to make the Hawaiian operation work for Mesa & the new US Airways, as he did do some homework but not enough!

I seriously give them credit to try to re-break ground where is has failed in the past with Mid Pacific, Discovery and Mahalo.

The only available terminal space is the Commuter Terminal. The State of Hawaii Department of Transportation has already stated they will not place any kind of RJ operation out of Terminal 1 or the Main Terminal.

Why would the Star Alliance want Mesa, what do they really have to offer the alliance? Let's see...poor reliability, cancellation rate that is higher than any other regional in the United States, and what on time statistics...none to be seen.

Brand loyalty is a big thing in Hawaii with the airlines, supermarkets, department stores, banks and so on....the local people who were born and raised, as well as, transplants from around the world continue to support entities who embody the Hawaiian & Aloha Spirit. Roots are a big thing!

Hawaiian, Aloha and Island Air will continue long after Mesa returns to the mainland with it's tail shoved up its...
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:31 pm

If they pay their employees shit no one will work for them in Hawai'i. The cost of living is on par with San Francisco and NYC (read: HIGH!!!!!!). Also, with Hawai'i's unemployment at a USA low 2.7% it will be hard to find employees for any task without offering a VERY competitive compensation package. Another problem they will have to deal with.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
HAL
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:34 pm

I used to fly for Hawaiian before getting furloughed in 2003. I have seen how the business world works in Hawaii and I think that for all the reasons given above, Mesa will have a hard time surviving there.

In addition, there are three more concepts that haven't been mentioned here.
(1): Read this excerpt from their 'fare structure' press release:

Without having to subsidize unprofitable trans-Pacific service on the shoulders of the inter-island passengers, Mesa can offer very attractive fares to our Hawaiian customers.

Right there, Mesa is either blind to reality or trying to weasel their way into Hawaii on a lie. Both Hawaiian and Aloha make the vast majority of their profit trans-pacific. The interisland flying is just marginally profitable now for them now.

(2) The fundemental operating cost structure between RJs & 717's are not that much different. The RJ's have crew costs, insurance, gate & landing fees, fuel etc that are not 50% less than the 717's, despite carrying at least 50% fewer passengers, therefore their seat/mile cost is higher. Hawaiian and Aloha make a large part of their income interisland by carrying cargo in the bellies of their 717's & 737's. Aloha even has a night cargo operation using combi 737's. Mesa's RJ's are too small to carry anything but baggage & passengers. It doesn't matter whether it is a CRJ200 ro CRJ900, there's no room for paying cargo. The margin for profit for both HA and AQ comes from the ability to throw a lot of cargo on the planes along with the passengers. Mesa simply can't do that, therefore, no profit no matter how full the plane is.

And (3), knowing what the local interisland passengers do, I find it impossible to believe that they will vote with their feet for Mesa. The RJs do not have much overhead baggage space at all, and the average interisland local is not going to check their bags. They want to get on & get off. Period. If Mesa is going to make them check just about everything except their purses (no rollaboard space overhead in RJs) the locals are going to stick with the bigger HA and AQ planes. And if they are going to be forced to use the tiny & distant commuter terminal in HNL, they will lose a lot of the locals and all the the connecting trans-pac passengers.

So what happens? Most likely the operation will go for a year or two, then fail. Orenstein will claim 'changed economics' or 'unlawful competition' or something like that, but eventually he will fold his tent and go. So from my three points above, Mesa is using (1) lies, (2) the wrong plane (cargo) and (3) the wrong plane (passengers). This is in addition to all the things mentioned by people above.

Mesa is trying to sell (at a lower price) seats that cost him more than HA or AQ.

I'll give Orenstein credit for trying, but just like all the other failed interisland competitors to HA & AQ, he didn't come up with the right formula.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:37 pm

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 4):
More than likely they will be fitted with fuel tanks in the cabin to make the trip. This is the most bonehead startup idea this year.

I agree. The only thing dumber than starting an LCC targeted at local business passengers and utilizing CRJ-200's is floating said CRJ-200s to Hawaii on wood rafts lashed together with bailing wire...
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:35 pm

BINGO....the cargo and terminal location are a BIG deal. AQ, and to a lesser extent HA make a killing on cargo. Even if they hurt a bit on passengers the cargo can make up for it. Note that AQ has not sold their cargo division, and even if they did, they would still have alot of belly space on the passenger flights.

Aloha!
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Bluewave 707
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:42 pm

Well ... Mr Orenstein is quite the ambitious airlines CEO ain't he? Mesa can offer the lowest fares, but CANNOT offer the baggage space. Plain & simple, cut & dry. When we locals travel inter-island, especially to visit family, it ain't no 1 suitcase deal, it's each person maxxing out the 2 piece limit, even the smallest traveler will have 2 pieces. Yeah ... try fitting all that on a CRJ.
Plus the fact there's even smaller carry-on space ... HA and AQ (even WP) win on both counts.

Flights from OGG better have space for all those Krispy Kreme Doughnuts that people bring back to HNL.  Big grin

Next time you're at the inter-island terminal, watch how much cargo is loaded on to an AQ 732 or HA 712, besides the baggage. Mesa will lose out big time!

The commuter terminal will be an interesting place with WP and their Q400s (when they arrive), LW and their C208s, and YV with their CRJs.

You know, the HP/US venture will tie-in as well. Depending where those planes are gated, the walk will definitely be a workout for those connencting to YV, or the opposite. What would really suck if US is gated near UA (Gates 6 - 10), and they have to connect to YV, and they missed the shuttle bus? YIKES!

Oh yeah, pay their employees peanuts? In Hawaii, they'll have to work overtime, or a 2nd job.

PDXFlyBoy, HAL, Aloha73g, PanAm747, & F27XXX ... I totally agree with you guys!
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
T prop
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 32):
The commuter terminal will be an interesting place with WP and their Q400s (when they arrive), LW and their C208s, and YV with their CRJs.

Seeing as WP uses the parking spots closest to the terminal in HNL, YV pax will have to walk half way to Elliot street to board. That's going to be interesting.

I just thought of something odd, when WP gets their Q400's, it will be the prop job that is the larger, faster aircraft out on the ramp. I've never ridden on a CRJ, but given that the Dash 8's fuselage is 8 inches in diameter wider than the CRJ, I imagine that the Q400 is also more comfortable.

T prop.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting Fokkerf28 (Reply 17):
Remember AQ is still using inefficient 737-200 inter island.

Too bad AQ didn't order the 717 to replace the 732 while the opportunity still existed. Nonetheless, the 732 still has an edge over the CRJ for the previously-mentioned reasons listed below:

Quoting HAL (Reply 29):
The fundemental operating cost structure between RJs & 717's are not that much different. The RJ's have crew costs, insurance, gate & landing fees, fuel etc that are not 50% less than the 717's, despite carrying at least 50% fewer passengers, therefore their seat/mile cost is higher. Hawaiian and Aloha make a large part of their income interisland by carrying cargo in the bellies of their 717's & 737's. Aloha even has a night cargo operation using combi 737's. Mesa's RJ's are too small to carry anything but baggage & passengers. It doesn't matter whether it is a CRJ200 ro CRJ900, there's no room for paying cargo. The margin for profit for both HA and AQ comes from the ability to throw a lot of cargo on the planes along with the passengers. Mesa simply can't do that, therefore, no profit no matter how full the plane is.

 checkmark 

Quoting HAL (Reply 29):
The RJs do not have much overhead baggage space at all, and the average interisland local is not going to check their bags. They want to get on & get off. Period. If Mesa is going to make them check just about everything except their purses (no rollaboard space overhead in RJs) the locals are going to stick with the bigger HA and AQ planes. And if they are going to be forced to use the tiny & distant commuter terminal in HNL, they will lose a lot of the locals and all the the connecting trans-pac passengers.

 checkmark 
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
jayspilot
Posts: 237
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:49 am

I know what has been said by mesa, but I have a feeling that they are going to code share with all their domestic partners in Hawaii and feed off their rev and traffic.
Just my thought regardless what has been said so far by mesa. It is on the drawing boards.
 
airmech
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:40 am

I've wondered how a Q400 operated as a combi would fare in the Hawiian market. From what I have heard there is a lot of cargo shipped by air between islands by air. I would think the Q400's would fit right in especially because of the lower altitude routes.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:45 am

The only airlines serving Hawai'i without codesharing with AQ (UA, AQ) or HA (HA, AA, CO, NW) are DL (which interlines with both) and ATA. If Mesa is in the commuter terminal no one in their right mind will connect to them...and if they do they wont be happy. Leaving security is a major negative these days.

Add in the baggage and cargo factors and Mesa is going to have some issues to work out.

With only 6 aircraft they won't be able to match AQ, HA or WP in terms of schedule frequency (#1 important for locals). I think AQ's switch to hourly service (6:00, 7:00, 8:00....etc.) for HNL-LIH/OGG is a good indication that they are going to play up convenience. I wouldn't be surprised if HA followed suit in that regard.

Both AQ and HA have competitively low costs coming out of banruptcy, they have EXCELLENT repuatations for service and reliability and they have very deep roots in Hawai'i. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the frequent flyer base...both HawaiianMiles and AlohaPass have penetrated every aspect of life in hawai'i with mileage tie-ins with banks/credit cards (huge for business travelers) as well as supermarkets and a host of other places. Mesa is fighting an uphill battle.

As for business travelers, my family owns a bunch of small businesses and have their accounts with First Hawaiian Bank, who comps them Ali'i Gold status on Aloha...why try Mesa when you get free perks on AQ?? HA has similar deals too.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
TedEx
Posts: 167
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:47 am

Any idea what CRS Mesa will use?
 
bigtidi
Posts: 41
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:02 am

T-Prop

Q400
Cabin maximum width (centreline) 8 ft 3 in 2.51 m
Cabin width (floor level) 6 ft 8 in 2.03 m

CRJ-200
Cabin maximum width (centreline) 8 ft 2 in 2.49 m
Cabin width (floor level) 7 ft 2 in 2.18 m


Just a correction...Dash is only 1 inch wider than the CRJ.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 29):
And if they are going to be forced to use the tiny & distant commuter terminal in HNL, they will lose a lot of the locals and all the the connecting trans-pac passengers.

Why not just run a secure shuttle like UA @ IAD, DL @ CVG, or etc. in connecting people from the mainline terminal(s) to the commuter terminal?
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 15):
Interesting that no one has mentioned cargo capacity in any of these discussions. The cargo capacity of the small jets is pretty sad, and I don't think too many people are going to be happy when told their luggage will be delayed because it can't fit on the plane.

This is the over ridding factor. This hair brained idea is a sure bust. Now.. An ERJ-170... Hmmmm... Q400 even better.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 40):
Why not just run a secure shuttle like UA @ IAD, DL @ CVG, or etc. in connecting people from the mainline terminal(s) to the commuter terminal?

This is where the State can help AQ and HA a bit by not allowing Mesa to do this...AQ used to have to a shuttle for Ali'i Club members to the UA area but it was outside of security....I don't see this happening.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 41):
An ERJ-170... Hmmmm...

From what I've heard, (from someone who works over at BGR) the EMB-170/175/190/195 planes have a very shallow storage compartment area (about 3 feet high); which means that small mainline jets like the 732 (AQ) & 717 (HA) still have a greater cargo/luggage carrying advantage.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 42):
This is where the State can help AQ and HA a bit by not allowing Mesa to do this...

Why should the state be in the corporate welfare business? You do that, and you basically begin another type of deal like the freakin Wright Am. Hawaii wouldn't be the first or last example of government shielding a private business... but that wouldn't make it right either.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 44):
Why should the state be in the corporate welfare business? You do that, and you basically begin another type of deal like the freakin Wright Am. Hawaii wouldn't be the first or last example of government shielding a private business... but that wouldn't make it right either.

Its not like they let WP do it...it would be an equal no for everyone. The State has helped out out AQ and HA many times in the past by waiving landing fees for carriers with their base of operations at HNL and other stuff like that. They are local companies provding ALOT of good jobs, and most importantly a service which is vital to our economy and the lives of our citizens...only AS in Alaska is a similar situation--AQ and HA are our interisland highway system.

Why should the state help Mesa (with their low paying jobs) to hurt AQ and HA. They wouldn't be treating them differently, they just aren't bending over backwards to help them. Remember, Hawai'i is regarded as the worst state to do business in....why change now to help Mesa of all companies??

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
ha763
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RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:31 am

HAL did a good job in his explanation. However, there is one thing that no one has mentioned. The interisland market has shrunk. Sure we have record number of tourists visiting Hawaii, but look at the amount of non-stop neighbor island flights we now have, reducing the number of connecting pax. You can even see it in the schedules of HA and AQ. They are flying less flights compared to 5 years ago. Even HP/US will be flying more flights to the neighbor islands than to HNL. Then there is also the growth of big-box stores and medical services on the neighbor islands, also reducing the amount of pax that came to Oahu for shopping or medical reasons. We will also have a ferry service starting up in 2007 to further cut into the market.

I have said it before, the interisland market is not big enough for 3 fully competing carriers. We already have 2 and a half carriers (WP says they try not to compete directly with HA and AQ but they all fly the same routes). History has shown this time and time again and that was during the days of no non-stop neighbor island flights.

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 32):
When we locals travel inter-island, especially to visit family, it ain't no 1 suitcase deal, it's each person maxxing out the 2 piece limit, even the smallest traveler will have 2 pieces.

Actually, for most Oahu residents, it is a carry-on plus personal item, which still poses a problem for a RJ. However, for neighbor island residents, you have more checking in bags due to shopping or the fact that they are connecting in HNL to/from a transpac flight. The pax that bring the most bags are the tourists. They are the ones maxed out on the baggage allowance.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 37):
I wouldn't underestimate the power of the frequent flyer base...both HawaiianMiles and AlohaPass have penetrated every aspect of life in hawai'i with mileage tie-ins with banks/credit cards (huge for business travelers) as well as supermarkets and a host of other places.

You also forget that many fly AQ because of the tie-up with UA which allows them to earn Mileage Plus miles and redeem rewards on all AQ flights. This is the more popular option than earning AlohaPass miles.
 
Bluewave 707
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:21 am

RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 37):
Both AQ and HA have competitively low costs coming out of banruptcy, they have EXCELLENT repuatations for service and reliability and they have very deep roots in Hawai'i. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the frequent flyer base...both HawaiianMiles and AlohaPass have penetrated every aspect of life in hawai'i with mileage tie-ins with banks/credit cards (huge for business travelers) as well as supermarkets and a host of other places. Mesa is fighting an uphill battle.

The marketing dept @ YV has yet to do any type of marketing or advertising in Hawaii. The only marketing comes from the mouth of Jon Orenstein. Feb '06 is right around the corner. If they want to get local biz tie-ins, they'd better work quick.

However ... many local businesses align themselves with HA and AQ for moving products and people for the reasons quoted above.

The State of Hawaii is a very close-knit community, and seeks to protect its own buisnesses. I'm talking about the people, not so much the government. Sure, they'll give anyone an opportunity to open and operate a business, but if an outsider does not learn the local culture and adapt it into their infrastructure, they'll be in for a big shock. Hawaii is THE melting pot of the Pacific. Protocols are a bit different here than in other parts of the USA.


Scuttlebutt around HNL is that YV is looking into purchasing the Circle Rainbow complex, and using that as their maintenance and corporate building @ HNL. YV has not said anything about it.


The Wiki-Wiki shuttle does run from the Ewa concourse to inter-island for HA flights. Question is how much will YV pay the state to run a shuttle? The downside is that pax will have to get off @ the inter-island terminal, and hike it over to the commuter terminal.  Sad There is a shuttle that runs outside of security, but I'm not sure how often it runs.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 46):
Why should the state help Mesa (with their low paying jobs)

They wouldn't be helping Mesa. They'd be treating Mesa indifferently, or "not screwing" Mesa, but definitely not "helping" Mesa. I still don't see what's so immoral about allowing Mesa to be running a bus (at Mesa's expense, not the gov't). Especially if it's to run hand in hand with USAirways running 757 loads full of tourists to the state where they're going to dump a bunch of money into the economy as well. Hawaii is basically just a tourist economy to begin with.
 
brownbat
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:33 pm

RE: Mesa Hawai'i:

Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:40 am

Big surprise that mesa would want to do this. Although I have heard that there is currently a travel boom in Hawaii and I guess mesa wants to get in on the action. I wonder how the mesa employees feel about moving to Hawaii, I'm guessing the senior employees would want to stay over on the mainland.