jsposaune
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:20 pm

Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:20 am

While leaving LAS last night, I noticed all the RON's from WN and it got me thinking...Why are there no redeye trans-cons on WN? With their recent addition of long(er) haul flights, wouldn't this make sense for them? Just curious...

PS: I saw that they do have a couple of flights into BWI that arrive approx 0100-0200, but I don't count those as red-eyes.
There are no stupid questions....only stupid people!!!
 
brokenrecord
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:45 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:25 am

Much like the ground workers at ORF, WN crews don't like to stay up late.  Smile
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:29 am

They simply cycle the equipment to where it's needed at the end of flight days. This is another cost savings factor.
 
flypdx
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Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:19 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:40 am

I thought it had to do with MX, as that was when it was scheduled. Someone can correct me.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:40 am

The subject has been covered in past threads, so you might try a search (including archived civil aviation).

The short answer is that the demand isn't there, and the overnight maintenance work requirements....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting Brokenrecord (Reply 1):
Much like the ground workers at ORF, WN crews don't like to stay up late.



Quoting Socalfive (Reply 2):
They simply cycle the equipment to where it's needed at the end of flight days. This is another cost savings factor.



Quoting Flypdx (Reply 3):
I thought it had to do with MX, as that was when it was scheduled

WN F/As have told me there are a lot of military charters done at night.

M
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:48 am

OPNL Dude have you ever been on a red-eye from LAX to Chicago The last 4 I have taken this year have been sold out and there is like 2 flights leaving 30 mins apart. I know they use it as time for maintence but the demand is there esp with WN I know they would be able to fill them up
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 5):
WN F/As have told me there are a lot of military charters done at night.

True, but that's the exception, and not the rule... They're usually on weekends, and many don't involve taking an aircraft from an overnight MX facility...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 6):
OPNL Dude have you ever been on a red-eye from LAX to Chicago The last 4 I have taken this year have been sold out and there is like 2 flights leaving 30 mins apart. I know they use it as time for maintence but the demand is there esp with WN I know they would be able to fill them up

Perhaps they're not doing as well as the other 361 days of the year. I'll defer to our marketing and MX departments on this one...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 6):
LAX to Chicago

One of the lowest yielding routes. While I was at TZ, even an 80% load factor was not enough.

M
 
FlewGSW
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:45 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:24 pm

WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

Are you serious?? I sure hope not.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

That is completely untrue. Besides, WN pilots DO fly at night (all IFR pilots must be able to fly at night anyway) and would have no problem with a redeye
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ntspelich
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:35 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:06 pm

I know that our last flight in (1099 from LAS) is rather hit or miss. The pax load will be in the 30s for weeks and then spike up around holidays, major events, etc, which is to be expected. However, it's also used as an east coast freight/mail positioning flight, much like our last flight to the west coast (ok PHX isn't west coast, but it's close enough) is used. Basically, stick around for the last inbound and you get a nice variety of freight/mail that had to be bumped earlier in the day throughout the system. Get it all to LAS by 6pm, throw it on there and plop it down in another mega station four hours later. All that's left is getting it out first thing in the morning.

Long story short, it doesn't take many pax upstairs for those flights to break even or make a profit.

That and, contrary to my recent work schedule, we at WN do like to sleep during the night. Nothing beats being the last one out and calling OPNL and his crew in dispatch to get the all clear for the night.

NTS

[Edited 2005-11-03 06:08:45]
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1708
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 2):
They simply cycle the equipment to where it's needed at the end of flight days. This is another cost savings factor.

Wrong. Higher utilization of your aircraft results in lower CASM. Not every plane needs overnight MX. Airlines that do red-eyes also do overnight work-packs on their RON aircraft. That's what aircraft routers are for (speaking from routing experience). Most carriers use only a small portion of their fleet for domestic red-eyes (10-20%). I am sure many, if not most WN aircraft are not at a MX facility or contract facility for their RON.

The most rational answer offered in this thread is the one about marketing. WN doesn't feel they need the additional revenue (and/or exposure) from red-eyes. WN also schedules some very tight turns and now that they are in some congested markets (see PHL) the lack of red-eyes also give you recovery time (both aicraft and crew) from upline delays.

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

riiiiiiighhht.  Smile
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
luvfa
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:05 pm

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:31 pm

I had an ATA pilot commuting on my flight this evening and he told me something interesting! Evidently there is some compatability with our Res systems as far as the code-share goes. Apparently our software doesn't recognize an itinerarythat occurs over more than one calender day, (as a red-eye would sugguest).

That being said however, I do believe that you will see red-eyes on WN in the future. Keep in mind trans-cons didn't exist at Southwest prior to 2002.
 
swatpamike
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:44 pm

Hello all

Quoting Ntspelich (Reply 13):
However, it's also used as an east coast freight/mail positioning flight

For the uneducated let me translate what he just said.

That means that Vegas puts all the days left over freight and mail on the last few east bound flights going to BWI, TPA, MCO etc...

Nothing fries my bacon more then 75 pieces of freight on 627 LAS-TPA that's going to PHL.  Smile

Keep it coming LAS, at least we are making money.

Cheers

swatpamike
 
SWAbubba
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:15 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

As others have mentioned there is no specific training for red-eyes other than that required for flying at night.

Anyway we do fly red-eyes, just not as scheduled service. We do two LAS-BUF charters every weekend and often do military charters and maintenance ferry flights overnight.

I flew the BUF-LAS-BUF charters a few times, but have since decided that it's not worth the money to stay up all night.
 
nycflyer
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:23 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:33 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
The short answer is that the demand isn't there,

Of course there's a demand. Why else does every other airline, including B6, fly redeyes?

You would think redeyes would fit right into WN's business model, because redeyes are all about getting the maximum utilization from each plane. The more hours per day a plane is in the air, the more profit. Redeyes are one of the keys to B6's success (so said Neeleman himself in a speech I saw him give this week.) It's a very good question why WN doesn't do it. Oh well. At least enough other airlines do.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Why No Red-eyes On WN?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:37 am

Red-eyes at most airlines were never operated to be profitable, they were to reposition equipment to the East Coast for morning departures.

I think part of it with Southwest is for their employees. It's a big selling point with Southwest recruiters, that you get to sleep at night if you work for them.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.