KensukeAida
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End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:46 pm

Okay, so would it be fair to say then when all current orders are filled (UPS seems to be the only major one for the A300-600), that Airbus will shut down production of this type?

It certainly seems as if the A300/A310 has been milked about as much as it's going to be milked. Many carriers are actively dumping them from pax service. If it weren't useful as a freighter, it would be gone by now.

Any ideas?

- John
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:47 pm

After the 767 is discontinued.
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FedEx
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:58 pm

I think FedEx just ordered another 6 or 8 new A306's.
 
gigneil
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:11 pm

They did...

Its quite clear that the A300 will have lived a longer life than the 767, despite not being as successful.

If Airbus had designed a 6000nm A300-600R, this might be a different story. They bet wrong.

It doesn't make any sense, really. The A300's wing is bigger... it should have easily supported more fuel, payload, and cargo than the 767-300ER and been a good compliment to the bigger A330.

N
 
col
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:12 pm

Don't see where all the airlines are dumping them? There are about 4 x 306 in storage, which are probably awaiting FR conversion. Such is the shortage of frames in the second hand market Fedex purchase new. UPS apparently cancelled 37, but with fuel prices as they are, they might surprise us with keeping some of those orders?

The old Airbus really ain't that bad, the 787 will be its main replacement.
 
gigneil
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:19 pm

Col-

UPS cancelled those A306s because the US and intra-region markets have topped out. The money is in US-Eur, US-Asia, and Eur-Asia. They're going to downsize their DC-8 fleet (which is a pretty big plane) without really negative effect on lift.

Watch the worldwide A310-300 fleet disappear quickly into the Fedex fold. They're adding as many as they can get their hands on, as some of their A310-200s are really quite old and the A310-300 is much more capable and efficient (and modern, in terms of systems).

Those A300-600s and A310s are going to live on practically forever.

M
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:35 pm

As a Freighter the A300s still have a life.
regds
MEL
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KensukeAida
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting Col (Reply 4):
Don't see where all the airlines are dumping them?

From pax service they are. JAL is dumping theirs next year for instance. KLM sold their A310s to FedEx. KAL has had massive reductions in their A300 fleet size. Ditto for LH. I doubt AA wants them around as soon as a viable alternative comes up.

And in any event, the thread is about new airframes. It is obvious that many of the current ones out there will live on as freighters for FedEx and the like. The freighter orders are not that big to keep the line open as opposed to consolidating and developing an A330 freighter.

The A300 vs. B767 is like the DC-8 vs. 707. One was more successful than the other in pax service, but the other will live on for a lot longer in cargo service.

- John
 
gigneil
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:48 pm

Arguably, the 707 died as a result of the USAF snapping up used frames for parts for KC-135s.  Smile

N
 
trevd
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:52 pm

The only reason there are more A300/A310/A306 conversions to freighter than 767's is that the residual values of the 767's are still too high to convert whereas the A300 series values have plumetted to the $10-$15M price range where it's economical to convert.

Believe we'll start seeing 767's starting to be convert in about 2 years...in fact Boeing and ANA just announced a deal that launches the 767-300P-F conversion program.
 
Ivo
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:55 pm

Quoting KensukeAida (Reply 7):
And in any event, the thread is about new airframes.

There are 15 A300 to be delivered:

6 UPS
6 Fedex
2 Air HongKong
1 Galaxy Airlines (Japan)

Ivo
 
zvezda
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting KensukeAida (Thread starter):
would it be fair to say then when all current orders are filled (UPS seems to be the only major one for the A300-600), that Airbus will shut down production of this type?

No, it wouldn't. It is built on the same line with the other Airbus widebodies (except the WhaleJet) so the A300 will continue to be offered as long as Airbus are making 222 inch diameter fuselages. Since Airbus just committed to the A350, that would probably be at least another 10 years.
 
astuteman
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting Fedex (Reply 2):
I think FedEx just ordered another 6 or 8 new A306's.



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
As a Freighter the A300s still have a life.

It's worht bearing in mind that the recent FEDEX order also had options attached (10 I think, but don't have it to hand right now...)
 
Thorben
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:18 pm

I think the end of production is near. There are no more A310s and just a bunch of A300Fs to be built. Selling cargo planes while the passenger line is dead happens to a lot of aircraft, like the MD-11, or even the 744.

The A310s and A300 will be around as cargo planes for a very long time, considering how many DC-8s, or 727s, you still see flying cargo.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
ba319-131
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:59 pm

Quoting KensukeAida (Reply 7):
JAL is dumping theirs next year for instance

A rather sweeping and incorrect statement.

Perhaps a few of the older non -600 models, but not many at all.

The JAL A300 & 767 fleet are both being replaced by the 787.

M
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A319XFW
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
No, it wouldn't. It is built on the same line with the other Airbus widebodies

No it's not - they are built in a different hangar to the A330/A340 FAL.
Last I heard was that Airbus is planning on supporting them till at least 2040!
 
Carpethead
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:33 pm

Quoting KensukeAida (Reply 7):
JAL is dumping theirs next year for instance. KLM sold their A310s to FedEx. KAL has had massive reductions in their A300 fleet size.

JL is phasing out the old A300B2/B4, the -600s aren't going anywhere until the 783 arrives. JL even has the last pax A300 (for now).
KE has phased out the older -600s (mostly non -600Rs) but willl retain those that are left for sometime. Their order for 788 isn't really a good replacement option but KE does use its AB6 fleet well for those short-haul Asian flying similar to what LH does on intra-European routes. ICN nor GMP are slot constrained, so KE may opt to downgauge AB6 flying to 739 or 739X and increase frequency.
 
astuteman
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:43 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 15):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
No, it wouldn't. It is built on the same line with the other Airbus widebodies

No it's not - they are built in a different hangar to the A330/A340 FAL.
Last I heard was that Airbus is planning on supporting them till at least 2040!

Not my quote, so sorry. The quote belonged to Zvezda

FWIW I agree with you.
A
 
Candid76
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:33 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
As a Freighter the A300s still have a life.

Would have thought they were ideal for the growing India-Middle East market, maybe IC should convert them not scrap them (as per the 737s)

Quoting TrevD (Reply 9):
The only reason there are more A300/A310/A306 conversions to freighter than 767's is that the residual values of the 767's are still too high to convert

Well I don't see customers queueing up at Victorville to snap up the United 762 fleet. Plus a number have been, or are being scrapped. This comment may however be basically true for 763s which are still in high demand for pax.
 
A342
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:37 pm

Quoting TrevD (Reply 9):
Believe we'll start seeing 767's starting to be convert in about 2 years

It has already started, but as you say, -300 conversions start now.

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 18):
Well I don't see customers queueing up at Victorville to snap up the United 762 fleet. Plus a number have been, or are being scrapped.

The A306s and A310s are in higher demand as freighters as they have a wider fuselage. The 767 can take 2 88-in pallets side-by-side, but the highly curbed walls are limiting the wall-side height of those pallets VERY much. It´s not as dramatic with the busses.


Quoting A319XFW (Reply 15):
Last I heard was that Airbus is planning on supporting them till at least 2040!

Maybe because some A310s will be converted to the military MRTT versions.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Candid76
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 19):
The A306s and A310s are in higher demand as freighters as they have a wider fuselage. The 767 can take 2 88-in pallets side-by-side, but the highly curbed walls are limiting the wall-side height of those pallets VERY much. It´s not as dramatic with the busses.

Would I be right in saying that this makes them more suitable for package companies (such as ABX and UPS) rather than general cargo airlines?
 
A342
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:59 pm

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 20):
Would I be right in saying that this makes them more suitable for package companies (such as ABX and UPS) rather than general cargo airlines?

Which planes do you mean here ? Both the A300/310 and the B767 are operated by package companies in large numbers.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Candid76
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:07 pm

I meant the 767 as opposed to the Airbus models.
 
A342
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 22):
I meant the 767 as opposed to the Airbus models

Ah, but I really have no clue.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Scorpio
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting TrevD (Reply 9):
The only reason there are more A300/A310/A306 conversions to freighter than 767's is that the residual values of the 767's are still too high to convert whereas the A300 series values have plumetted to the $10-$15M price range where it's economical to convert.

Not a financial analyst, but could the main reason be the operator base for these planes? A300 and A310 were sold mostly in Western Europe and the Far East, where most 767s were sold in North America and Japan. Airlines in Western Europe on average replace their planes earlier than US and Japanese airlines. That means relatively more A300/A310s end up on the second hand market at a younger age. More planes on offer => value goes down. US and Japanese airlines tend to keep their planes longer, thus less planes on the second hand market => higher value. This tendency has little to do with the manufacturer, as e.g. you can already see European mainline carriers starting to dump relatively new 767-300ERs (SAS, AF, KLM), something no US major is doing.

Also, don't forget that for package freighters the A300/310 can be more attractive as it offers more cargo volume than the 767, thanks to the wider fuselage.
 
gigneil
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting TrevD (Reply 9):
The only reason there are more A300/A310/A306 conversions to freighter than 767's is that the residual values of the 767's are still too high to convert whereas the A300 series values have plumetted to the $10-$15M price range where it's economical to convert.

Well, that, and the A300 has a superior cargo profile.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
It is built on the same line with the other Airbus widebodies

Actually, it isn't.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 25):
The A310 is horrendous, the sooner it goes the better.

Great quote. You add so much to the conversation.

N
 
Carpethead
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:14 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 24):
Airlines in Western Europe on average replace their planes earlier than US and Japanese airlines.

You are half correct about Japanese airline. I'll give you JL because they operate planes until they cycle out. NH isn't like that. They replace planes before they turn 20 years old, about even on Western European airlines. Some airlines in Asia replace planes even earlier like SQ. A 10 year old plane in SQ is like an ancient relic.
 
airways45
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:35 pm

The A310 isn't actually being sold by Airbus - the only orders on the books are ancient orders from Iraqi Airways that won't be delivered...

If a customer wanted an A310, Airbus would likely steer them to an A300-600 or an A330.

We won't see a new A310 being made.

As for A300 - all development costs have been met by Airbus and they are building one a month. Why close the line when you can keep it moving, slowly, but at marginal cost?

Airways45
 
Scorpio
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 25):
The A310 is horrendous, the sooner it goes the better.

Thank you for another extremely valuable contribution. Everyone will no doubt see you as a shining example of how to make a post from now on.

Don't you have some DL 777 overhead bins to inspect or something?

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 27):
I'll give you JL because they operate planes until they cycle out. NH isn't like that. They replace planes before they turn 20 years old, about even on Western European airlines.

Yes, you're right, though I would say the former JAS falls somewhere in the JAL category, still operating old A300B at the time of the takeover.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 27):
Some airlines in Asia replace planes even earlier like SQ.

Indeed, and that was my point. Airbus sold lots of A300s and A310s (especially A300s) in these parts, so they get on the market sooner.
 
col
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RE: End Of A300/A310 - When?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 25):
The A310 is horrendous, the sooner it goes the better.

It is so bad you can't get hold of one for love nor money.

Also, on my previous post I was trying to make the point that there are very few frames available for conversion. Airlines are not dumping them at a rate to cover the market requirement, hence FedEx had to purchase new. The 310 is like the MD11, most will be converted to FR duties.

I cannot understand why we have so many 762's in storage, and these aren't being converted?