ChiGB1973
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Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:55 am

WOW! What are the chances of this?

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...reliminary_data/media/A_1104_N.txt (last record)

I did a search and very few birds are capable of this feat. Seems they are mostly in India and the record was seen over Northern Ireland.

Just thought it was an interesting, though very scary (thank goodness it worked out OK), tidbit of information.

http://yahooligans.yahoo.com/content/ask_earl/page?d=20021218
http://www.cvco.org/science/audubon/height.htm

M
 
A342
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:12 am

That´s interesting ! But how did they recognize the bird species, at such a speed ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:13 am

Hmm, that is a good question. Maybe the bird caught a jet stream and was passing them. (ha)
 
mrocktor
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
That´s interesting ! But how did they recognize the bird species, at such a speed ?

By the remains, I would imagine.

mrocktor
 
Tornado82
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:31 am

Hypoxia? What hypoxia? Or maybe the bird has a pressurized beak.  Silly
 
A342
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 3):

DNA analysis of the blood on the windshield ? You´d have a hard time finding the animal.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
J32driver
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:45 am

BIG thud vx. small thud I'd imagine! That would scare the crap out of me hitting a goose at FL360!
 
bomber996
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:53 am

I would never imagine a bird could fly as high as FL360. When doing cross country's in my small Piper Warrior I find it off to see a bird at anywhere over 3000 feet! I would never imagine FL360. What kind of birds can do this?

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Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
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United_fan
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:09 am

Isn't the air @ FL360 too thin to beathe,even for a bird ?
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Thread starter):
record was seen over Northern Ireland.

The highest altitude recorded for a bird is 37,000 ft. (11,300 m), for a Ruppell�s vulture (Gyps rueppellii), a vulture with a 10-foot wingspan. Itwas sucked into a jet engine of a commercial aircraft over Abidjan, Ivory Coast, on November 29, 1973.
http://www.guinnessrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=51479

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
Hypoxia? What hypoxia? Or maybe the bird has a pressurized beak.



Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 7):
Isn't the air @ FL360 too thin to beathe,even for a bird ?

Birds are especially well adapted to flying, an exercise that consumes lots of energy. Many of these adaptations help them to tolerate hypoxia surprisingly well.

Unlike mammals (including human) birds are able to maintain blood flow (and thus oxygen supply) to the brain during hypoxia. They also have a much more efficient lung system consisting of air sacs that allows them to circulate inhaled air twice through the lungs with each breath--much more efficient than the in-and-out system used by mammals. Furthermore the oxygen carrying capacity of their blood is much higher and they have a relative larger heart and more extensive networks of capillaries (the smallest blood vessels in organs) in muscle and brain. These adapatations allow birds to maintain oxygen supply to the brain and the muscles even at high altitudes

From: Annual Review of Physiology Vol. 53: 59-70 (Volume publication date March 1991) (doi:10.1146/annurev.ph.53.030191.000423)
Adaptations to Hypoxia in Birds: How to Fly High
F M Faraci
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 9):
Birds are especially well adapted to flying, an exercise that consumes lots of energy. Many of these adaptations help them to tolerate hypoxia surprisingly well.

Very interesting information. Before I read any of the replys, I didn't think about hypoxia. My first thought was how the bird kept from freezing to death at that altitude. Did your source say anything about adapting to cold temperatues at altitude?
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:52 am

I heard (then saw) a blue jay while in England. They're not indigenous to Europe...just North America. The only way it could have gotten there was via the jetstream. It may have stowed away on a ship or airplane, but that's not likely. Blue jays are smart; they don't go into enclosed places.

Here's a photo of one and its song. They're about 20 cc from head to tail. Anyone else in the UK ever seen or heard one?



Blue Jay call

Mark

[Edited 2005-11-05 01:53:40]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
TaromA380
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
But how did they recognize the bird species, at such a speed ?

Each bird specie have its own distinctive signs, like dimensions, color of plucks, shape of the body, of the wings etc. So, it's not difficult to recognize them. Usually there are many passenger windows at the level of the engines intakes. But you have to be damn fast. Big grin
 
GEnxPower
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:19 am

Good info AMSSFO.

I am not sure if they are the same thing, but what they call "Turkey Vulture" over North America has been sucked into jet engines at cruise FL too. Doesn't happen very often at all, but I do hear people talking about this quite often at work.

Those are great flying animals, with long wingspan, and high aspect ratio designed for great lift and efficiency. These birds can just glide for long time without needing to flap.
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 10):
Did your source say anything about adapting to cold temperatues at altitude?

Swans have been sighted flying at 8.200 m where the temperature is -48 C! My source did not say anything about specific adaptations to the cold itself, but it did say something about the relation between extreme cold and oxygen. Extreme cold seems to increase the efficiency of gas exchange in the avian lung; the mechanism is unknown. Although it's not known whether the body temperature decreases at high altitude, it has been shown that a few degrees lower temp increases the affinity of hemoglobulin for oxygen (oxygen will bind better to its carrier in the blood).
But how do they keep warm? Maybe the exercise of flying produces a lot of warmth? And they do have a nice coat of course.

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 13):
I am not sure if they are the same thing, but what they call "Turkey Vulture" over North America has been sucked into jet engines at cruise FL too.
Those are great flying animals, with long wingspan, and high aspect ratio designed for great lift and efficiency. These birds can just glide for long time without needing to flap.

Not the same species, no; Turkey vultures are smaller. But they are great, indeed; I actually see them a lot in the Bay Area. They use ascending warm air to gain altitude; saves them a lot of energy.
I also like the albatros: without ever resting on the sea, they fly/glide using air lifted up by waves for over 6000 miles across the world's oceans!

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 7):
What kind of birds can do this?

Vultures, various goose (bar-headed geese cross the Himalayas en route between its nesting grounds in Tibet and winter quarters in India. They are sometimes seen flying well above the peak of Mt. Everest at 29,035 ft!), Demoiselle Cranes; Whooper swans, once observed by a pilot at 27,000 feet over the Atlantic between Iceland and Europe, and bar-tailed godwits (a shorebird), which have been seen at almost 20,000 feet. The record for North America (Well until this year's goose of course) is a mallard duck that collided with an airplane at 21,000 feet above Elko, Nevada in July, 1963 .
sources:http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbirdbees.html
http://magazine.audubon.org/birds/birds0011.html
Impressive!

from http://www.cotswoldwildlifepark.co.uk/acatalog/Geese.html
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:33 am

It's awfully odd to find a single goose flying at FL360, since they almost always fly in large V's.....usually 8 birds or more. It was probably a bio-mechanical goose hybrid. Some really top-secret spy machinery it is (was).  cheeky 

Okay then, if a dang goose can fly efficiently (I am assuming efficiently) at FL360, why doesn't commercial aviation mimic this bird, in shape at least if not in function? Do you have any idea how fast this huge bird had to be flying...in a realm where man can barely breathe due to the thinness of the air? I dunno, but I bet it was pretty fast.

Perhaps this bird struggled to cruise altitude and then caught the jetstream. If the bird times it right it could save a great deal of time during those long and boring trips between their summer and winter homes.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 15):
It's awfully odd to find a single goose flying at FL360, since they almost always fly in large V's.....usually 8 birds or more. It was probably a bio-mechanical goose hybrid. Some really top-secret spy machinery it is (was).

the Airbus A100 sent over to spy on Boeing's factories on its way to Seattle  Smile
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
i530j
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:51 am

Where did the pilot finnaly land?
"I love you, I love the kids..." then the phone went dead.
 
ual747den
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:03 pm

Its the latest Ejet being tested!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:19 pm

The way they identified it was by looking at the remaining feathers with a microscope. Every bird species has its own unique microscopic feather structure, kind of like finger printing for humans. I learned this a long time ago in a documentary.
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:19 pm

My flight instructor had to avoid a cardboard box at 3000 feet once.

I personally have seen leaves floating around at 2500 feet above ground.

Updraft can be pretty strong.
 
Mandrake
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:33 pm

Quoting J32driver (Reply 6):
BIG thud vx. small thud I'd imagine!

Yes, and what a THUD! Regardless of the direction the bird was flying, the impact speed would have been approaching high subsonic levels. A 15 pound bird hit by a 500mph plane makes great demands of a windscreen. Just how thick is that glass?

Mandrake
Everything nice has its price, and the nicer, the pricier.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:18 pm

Don't Birds get affected by Hypoxia  Smile
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CFIjames
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:27 pm

I just read an article that said a 15 pound bird (like a goose) getting hit by an aircraft going 150 knots has the impact forces of a 1000 lb object being dropped from a height of 10 feet. Just imagine what it would be for .80 mach! As for myself, the highest ive seen a bird is 8 or 9000 feet. Ive also seen balloons at about that height too, probably 10 times or so.
There are 3 simple rules for making a perfect landing every time. Its a shame that no one knows what they are.
 
hypersonic
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:52 pm

One of the reasons why high efficiency long distance cruise birds like swans & Geese climb so high is partly down to cooling. Birds burn a lot of fat while flying; this produces a lot of water that must be expired. The winds in the upper atmosphere are DRIER and COOLER than those lower down. This would make it easier for the expired water to evaporate and keep the birds cool. So basically a swan trying to fly at full cruise velocity at low altitude would severly overheat.
 
IcemanT37
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:03 pm

The forensic science behind birdstrike investigations is fairly advanced, and in the case of the USAF, I believe it's standard protocol to send all remains to the Smithsonian for positive ID of the species. Many bird strikes leave little more than a smudge on the windscreen or fuselage, but apparently that's enough for them to work with. Fascinating.

Bird Avoidance is taken very seriously in the Air Force, and significant resources are assigned to mitigate the risks. Propane cannons are commonly used to disperse gathering flocks, and I've also heard of tape recorded sounds of predators being blasted through mobile loudspeakers.

At one base I was assigned to a few years back, the airfield managers even hired a dog handler and his specially trained border collie. Not sure if it's still there, but at the time they said it was doing a remarkable job.
 
ACYWG
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:45 am

I know Canada Geese have been known to fly at altitudes greater than 25,000 feet. Though I can't say I've ever heard of one being sucked into an engine or whacking into an airliner.
 
BryanG
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RE: Bird Strike At FL360

Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:07 am

Colorado Springs is on the eastern face of the Rockies - where the plains meet the mountains. Probably lots of strong updrafts in the area. Poor goose might have gotten himself caught in one of them.

I can't believe the pilot didn't make a precautionary landing nearby. I wouldn't fool around with a cracked windscreen. Like you say, that goose must have made an incredible shudder at M.80.

It must have only glanced off the side of the nose. A full-on strike with a goose at that speed would have caused serious damage!

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