Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:11 am

Hi all,

these days I heard the rumor that EK is planing to route at least the plnd DXB-GRU flight via FRA....

Has anyone more information on this?

regards
Avianca

[Edited 2005-11-04 20:18:21]
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9605
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:36 am

FRA seems to be an interesting stopover point since it adds 2500 miles to the route.

DXB-FRA 3013 mi
FRA-GRU 6073 mi
DXB-GRU 7592 mi

A nonstop route probably would need an ultra long range aircraft as it would be the longest route operated by Emirates.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
CrazyHorse
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:16 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:42 am

Fra seems really interesting for a stopover, but maybe MUC or ZRH is the better alternative for EK.
EK had to use a hub between SouthAmerica and DXB with full traffic rights, also between NorthAmerica and DXB.
When not EK will become much problems with the new destinations.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 2):
also between NorthAmerica and DXB.

I think CDG was in talk with EK for the stop destination on the California routes.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
CrazyHorse
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:16 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
I think CDG was in talk with EK for the stop destination on the California routes.

Really a good choice, but will CDG be a hub or only a stopover without full traffic rights?
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 4):
Really a good choice, but will CDG be a hub or only a stopover without full traffic rights?

I think with full traffic rights.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
CrazyHorse
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:16 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 5):
I think with full traffic rights.

I hope it for EK, otherwise EK will become much problems with this services. Not many pax will fly LAX-DXB-MUC, when a direct flight or a short flight will have the same price.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:02 am

What about PHC as a stop ? Situated pretty much on the route, and probably some oil business ? Always good to have a connection to DXB, and I guess fuel is not that expensive there.

ASI is also close to the flight path, but is a military airfield and fuel might be expensive there. PHC divides the flight into 2 legs which can easily flown by both the A332 and B772A with full payload (I chose these two because they´re in the EK fleet, also possible with many other longrangers).

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=d...&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=180

However, the infrastructure at PHC has to be improved.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:08 am

well ASI makse no sense, before this they could use the A345 on a DXB-GRU route and run nonstop.

PHC maks much more sense but I think they will go via Europe to get better loads on the flights if they could get local rights on all flight segments.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
well ASI makse no sense, before this they could use the A345 on a DXB-GRU route and run nonstop.

Remember that they are in a shortage of aircraft and that they want to start many new ULH routes, so it could be better than nothing. Even their sole A310 could do the route, given 120 minutes ETOPS certification.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
PHC maks much more sense but I think they will go via Europe to get better loads on the flights if they could get local rights on all flight segments.

Via PHC thex have no competiton, which is stiff in Europe.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To SouthAmerica Routet Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 9):
Via PHC thex have no competiton, which is stiff in Europe.

but is there this big demand? maybe some business travellers coming from gig to phc as you pointed out due oil business. but on flights via europe they could fill up the flight without any problem.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
PHC maks much more sense but I think they will go via Europe to get better loads on the flights if they could get local rights on all flight segments.

= I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK. Do you remember RG trying to route their NRT via ZRH and then MUC? Both times, governments stopped action ... I'd be surprised if they allowed it for EK.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK.

yes its hard to belive but who knows? specially brazilian government is more than intrested on a direct flight into midlle-east region from brazil.

and regarding the germans, who knows, but yes LH is strong and they will do all that EK get not the rights.

what about an alternative stop over in europe, like bru or vie?
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
CrazyHorse
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:16 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
= I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK. Do you remember RG trying to route their NRT via ZRH and then MUC? Both times, governments stopped action ... I'd be surprised if they allowed it for EK.

Maybe the swiss government will allow this route, after their national carrier is know under German banner.
 
planemannyc
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:51 am

I wonder if a stopover in West Africa -- ABJ, ACC, LOS (frequencies of 2-3 per week for each destination, with daily svs to Brazil) could work for them. I guess traffic between those points and Brazil won't be that high -- esp for First and Business Class.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5046
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 12):
yes its hard to belive but who knows? specially brazilian government is more than intrested on a direct flight into midlle-east region from brazil.

I don't know how are the relations between EK, LH and RG but i won't believe they will open a very high premium market (FRA-GIG is RG top route and FRA-GRU is ranked 2nd, also LH are doing great on both FRA-GRU flights) to a strong competitor like EK.
Yes Brazil is highly interested on the flight, but i don't believe Star will allow such a strong new player. I can't see an advantage for LH for example, to allow EK to sell tickets in Germany for Brazil. EK will be the only winner.

Avianca, with some high graduated sources from the Brazilian Government, the route that probably will be started first will be EZE-GIG-DXB. Also Argentina is looking for this flight.

Regards
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
I don't know how are the relations between EK, LH

well the relations between EK and LH are like a cat and a mouse.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
but i won't believe they will open a very high premium marke

all depands what EK would offer company´s, if EK would get the rights they could get some part of the cake.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
he route that probably will be started first will be EZE-GIG-DXB

would make sense regarding the oil business between UAE and Brazil.
But what I am heard is that GRU is first on the list. Time will tell.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Trolley Dolley
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 1:57 pm

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:21 am

The distance DXB-GRU is roughly equivalent to LAX-SYD. This is well within the range of the A345 and all 777 models except the initial non ER versions. I checked the Boeing map too with range circles from DXB. With new aircraft coming on line, so I se no reason why they'd use a ciruitous route with poor 5th right freedoms to serve the market when they can easily do it direct.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:21 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
= I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK. Do you remember RG trying to route their NRT via ZRH and then MUC? Both times, governments stopped action ... I'd be surprised if they allowed it for EK.

Japan was the "evil protectionist" in this negotiations.
 
A360
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:41 pm

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:51 am

I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over. And a continuation of the flight to EZE is very well thought too.

EK will probably do the route using the 345 or 77W.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over

yes as I can remember EK talked always about DXB-SouthAmerica nonstop, but than last week I heard that rumor from a very good source.

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
AF022
Posts: 1674
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:33 am

I doubt highly EK would go to South America unless it could be done nonstop.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5046
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:50 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
all depands what EK would offer company´s, if EK would get the rights they could get some part of the cake.

I read again the bilateral Germany-Brazil. There is no way to open a frequency or a route in favor of a third country airliner. Its clear that a simple message from Varig or Lufthansa block any kind of traffic.

Some aspects:

EACH one of the parts reserve the right to deny or refuse service by a nominated corporate designated by the other country if:

1) Its not proved that such company keeps a large stake or its control on the hands of the nationals of the other country.

2) --- Not important ---

3) Aircraft in use on the routes between Brazil-Germany or Germany-Brazil are not operated by nationals of the other country.

I doubt LH and RG will allow EK to run FRA-Brazil flights. They have the rights to deny access to the market to any other company not from Brazil or Germany. As i know, EK is not controlled by Brazil or Deutsch Individuals. IMO, there is no way for Brazilian Government to allow EK as they nowadays are trying to help Varig (and RG best routes are on Germany).
TAM will love to fly back to FRA and will probably ask for any frequencies.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
would make sense regarding the oil business between UAE and Brazil.

There are more customers than the strong Oil Business. Connections to Asia are 50% of the demand on SAA GRU-JNB flights, and they keep not the best time table for connections. EK could allow better connections and fight for this market as well other industries in South America like Civil Construction, Food, Automobiles, Shipyards, Planes. I see nowadays GIG-EZE route ahead of GRU just because it will be a strong way to fight with SAA for the connections to Asia.

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over. And a continuation of the flight to EZE is very well thought too.

Yes, you're right, and also, this is the route on their map of future routes, not GRU.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 18):
Japan was the "evil protectionist" in this negotiations.

That's why now RG will code share thru MUC with ANA and LH to Japan. Japan does not grant aproval to RG fly MUC-NRT (i don't understand why Brazil allows JAL to sell GRU-JFK-NRT !)

Regards
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:49 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
I read again the bilateral Germany-Brazil. There is no way to open a frequency or a route in favor of a third country airliner. Its clear that a simple message from Varig or Lufthansa block any kind of traffic.

thanks for the info. who knows maybe they are planing instead of the pax flight a cargo flight to route via FRA???

who knows?

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
CrazyHorse
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:16 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:26 pm

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over. And a continuation of the flight to EZE is very well thought too.

The demand for an direct flight between Brasil and Dubai seems to be here, but EK could earn more many with stop in Europe and full traffic rights there.
Maybe Switzerland or Austria will allow stops, but EK should be not to bullish.

Manuel
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5046
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 23):
thanks for the info. who knows maybe they are planing instead of the pax flight a cargo flight to route via FRA???

who knows?

Yes Avianca, or they probably are trying to see all the possibilities EK may have. Brazil keep non-stop service in Europe not to all markets (but probably for the best): Germany, Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, UK, Switzerland & Netherlands. Denmark, Sweden and Belgium for example, do not keep non-stop service to Brazil. May be a flight from DBX with stop in one of those countries could be a powerfully route.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
Denmark, Sweden and Belgium for example, do not keep non-stop service to Brazil. May be a flight from DBX with stop in one of those countries could be a powerfully route.

as mentioned before BRU and VIE came in my mind.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:18 am

EK to South America via Cyprus, NAP, ATH, BEY, CAI ??
They flew to IAH via Cyprus.
As for stop in West Africa; LOS, SSG, LBV and DLA comes to mind (they're oil destinations)...
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5292
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 27):
They flew to IAH via Cyprus.

as I remember EK never served IAH, or was it a special flight?
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 28):
as I remember EK never served IAH, or was it a special flight?

A couple of years ago, I saw a Airbus 340 in IAH, it was Emirates or GULF AIR, which used to fly DXB-Larnaca-IAH twice weekly, the passengers were mostly connecting traffic from India/Pakistan
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Avianca, with some high graduated sources from the Brazilian Government, the route that probably will be started first will be EZE-GIG-DXB. Also Argentina is looking for this flight.

= Felipe is right on the money. This is what Brasilian officials have told me as well.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 18):
Japan was the "evil protectionist" in this negotiations.

= Actually, behind the scene, Germany protested as well - if not more, then with equal rigor.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7880
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via

Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
Japan does not grant aproval to RG fly MUC-NRT (i don't understand why Brazil allows JAL to sell GRU-JFK-NRT !)

Small correction:

The MUC stop-over was to PEK (which the Chinese did not grant the rights). NRT/NGO was via ZRH, and I believe RG also tried GVA, but the Japanese did not grant RG the rights either.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
= I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK. Do you remember RG trying to route their NRT via ZRH and then MUC? Both times, governments stopped action ... I'd be surprised if they allowed it for EK.

Agree. No way EK will get 5th freedom rights for such a premium market.

Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 14):
I wonder if a stopover in West Africa -- ABJ, ACC, LOS (frequencies of 2-3 per week for each destination, with daily svs to Brazil) could work for them

This would be more likely. However, I also think that it is more likely the EK will operate to Brazil nonstop.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Avianca, with some high graduated sources from the Brazilian Government, the route that probably will be started first will be EZE-GIG-DXB.

The information I have is that EK was examining two routes DXB-GRU (1st priority) and DXB-GIG-EZE (2nd priority). I personally think that the DXB-GRU would have the greatest chance to become operational, even become the majority of the Arab population (and Arab business) is centred in Sao Paulo.

On the other hand, sources also told me that EK was looking into GIG because of 1) tourism since this destination is attractive for Gulf State (exotic, etc) and people there travel a lot on holidays (on business class) 2) oil business GIG is ahead of GRU; 3) GIG is becoming more important for connections and EK.

But I still think that DXB-GRU will be the final decision of EK - after all, why would they be different from all other airlines?? Sao Paulo is a must in the routemap of any major airline, and GIG comes only after as second option; this is a fact.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
I see nowadays GIG-EZE route ahead of GRU just because it will be a strong way to fight with SAA for the connections to Asia.

If this is the case they will fly to GRU - there they can fight with SAA, and they can also capture the premium market! They would not be naive to leave GRU for SAA...every airline wants a share of the GRU market.

Rgsm
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5046
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?

Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
The information I have is that EK was examining two routes DXB-GRU (1st priority) and DXB-GIG-EZE (2nd priority). I personally think that the DXB-GRU would have the greatest chance to become operational, even become the majority of the Arab population (and Arab business) is centred in Sao Paulo.

Different from Embratur and Itamaraty (Foreign Relations). Both says that the flight was intended exclusively to Argentina. But negotations with Dubai Government to grant them the 5th liberty on GIG-EZE change Emirates idea. Also, the big issues on the South America route for Emirates are: Oil Business (Rio), Tourism and Connections to/from Asia. The Arab population is centred in Sao Paulo, but not the oil business or tourism.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
On the other hand, sources also told me that EK was looking into GIG because of 1) tourism since this destination is attractive for Gulf State (exotic, etc) and people there travel a lot on holidays (on business class) 2) oil business GIG is ahead of GRU; 3) GIG is becoming more important for connections and EK.

Agree. Only a foot note: Sao Paulo does not held any Oil company. 100% keep HQ in Rio, nowadays more than 345,000 employees on oil related business.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
Sao Paulo is a must in the routemap of any major airline, and GIG comes only after as second option; this is a fact.

Yes, a must, a traffic problem and also a check-in problem: there is no space for new players at GRU and Infraero/Embratur/DAC/Customs/Federal Police are trying to solve this and other problems concerns. The only available space is on Varig and TAM areas, if they want to share! Webjet received a very small check-in area, provisory, but up to now there are no space avialable.
That's funny, but it's real.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
If this is the case they will fly to GRU - there they can fight with SAA, and they can also capture the premium market! They would not be naive to leave GRU for SAA...every airline wants a share of the GRU market.

Hardi, more than 60% of SAA pax come from outside Sao Paulo. Establishing a route from GIG will allow Emirates to fight for those pax. Remember that Emirates is not a Star Member, SAA uses RG network and for them GRU is perfect. SAA flight is not O&D, and Emirates flight will be not O&D also.

For Emirates, GIG or GRU in terms of connections will be the same, the difference will be tourism + oil in favor of Rio and arab population in favor of Sao Paulo. As Oil is the main interest, and tourism as per Hardi's post can bring top travellers, and also, Bs As keep strong arab population too, i really expect the flight as EZE-GIG-DXB.

But i respect the fact and importance of Sao Paulo and only Emirates could solve this question at time of the service announcement.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos