mauriceb
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Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:43 pm

last week we all heard the Rekkof project was cancelled because of KLM. but now both Rekkof, KLM and journalist arnold burlage announced that the rekkof project is even more alive then ever, after rekkof is talking with 3 different engine manufactors to build a super efficient engine.

KLM also said today that the new Fokkers are likely to replace the 50 planes big KLC fleet by 2010, but that the order will be even bigger because also AF will get lots of Rekkofs because of a commen regional fleet , this is actually what the KLM head chief , peter hartman , today announced...

seems like there is a future afteralll
 
JRadier
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:50 pm

so who killed what now ey?
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
mauriceb
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:57 pm

jurgen don't blame me , im only posting what the press says  Wink last week rekkof sayd KLM was the one killing the project, but now its obviously KLM who's reanimating the F-70/100
 
JCS
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:02 pm

MauriceB, you was a little faster. But here what I prepared to post this morning.

Johannes

Apparently Rekkof is still in good contact with KLM. After some rumors in different media, the newspaper Telegraaf makes clear what the point of Rekkof CEO Mr. Jaap Rosen Jacobsen is: "we DIDN'T give up".

De Telegraaf is the biggest newspaper from Netherlands and is regarded for financial & business news.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2...erstart_Fokker_lijkt_dichtbij.html
SCHIPHOL - Chances for restarting the Fokker-airplanefactory seems to grow to serious during the development of the new very-fuel-reducing new version of the Fokker. KLM supports initiatives to make 'new' Fokker 70/100's airborne, because of fuel-price records. Behind-the-scenes, there are very significant efforts to make achievements.

In case of making the 'go' to build Fokkers, possible locations are Schiphol (AMS), Lelystad, Woensdrecht and Twente.

Aviation investor Jaap R. Rosen Jacobsen, already investing for many years in restarting airlinersproduction, has confirmed the status of these plans. "Aviation is much more dying for new fuel-low airliners instead of entire new aircraft types", he said.

The former military airbase Twenthe, being left by the Royal Airforce, seems at the moment the most potential because of its excellent financial possibilities. Some big local investors, like real estate investor Dick Wessels and Oad-owner [travel organization] ir. Joop ter Haar, are hopfull after negotiation with the CEO of the Fokker-plans.

Apparently the man who wants revitalization of the airliners production in our country has got serious attention from KLM for his new fuel-low Fokker-NG. "If this fuel-low Fokker-airliner is available, we will serious considering to take it in operations around 2010, when our regional-fleet needs to be renewed. That we can make good business with Fokkers speaks from the fact we have more then 50 Fokker-airliners in operation right now." According to a interview YESTERDAY with this newspaper.
 
MEA-707
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:09 pm

I think it's a last PR attempt of Rekkof, I stopped believing in it. I think behind the scenes, the plug was pulled last summer, and quickly, Air France's affiliates Regional and Brit go for the Emb-170 family and KLM probably as well. It mainly sounds a PR spin. KLM will of course keep all options open and not say they won't ever buy it. Rekkof might want to keep up appearances and come up with vague positive news to keep away the creditors for a few more weeks or months.
De Telegraaf is the biggest newspaper in the Netherlands, but so is The Sun in England and the Bild Zeitung in Germany.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
Scorpio
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:10 pm

Interesting. I still think chances of this happening are very small, but I hope I'm wrong...

Anyway, so much for the 'blame the French' movement that was starting on the other thread  Wink
 
hardiwv
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
I think it's a last PR attempt of Rekkof,

This is pure PR....no chance...
 
travellin'man
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:15 pm

In a world where the 717 never got off the ground more than it did, where Embraer is as dominant as it is becoming, I can't see how Rekkof will do much of anything.
It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
 
KL808
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:34 pm

Wow I just hope this is it. I just hope we get something difinitive out of all of this.

Quoting JCS (Reply 3):
The former military airbase Twenthe, being left by the Royal Airforce, seems at the moment the most potential because of its excellent financial possibilities.

This is great news for the cities of Hengelo, Oldenzaal and Enschede if it really is true.

Groetjes

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
JRadier
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:36 pm

Quoting Travellin'man (Reply 7):
In a world where the 717 never got off the ground more than it did, where Embraer is as dominant as it is becoming, I can't see how Rekkof will do much of anything.

In a world where the Boeing was quickly becoming the leading aircraft manufacturer with Lockheed virtually inexistant and the A300 not selling that well I couldn't see how Airbus would do much of anything.

(just to compare, not an A. vs B. war, we all know what became of the situation back then)

and maurice, you were also using your own feelings in the last thread (where did the press say KLM killed the rekkof project  Wink)
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
mauriceb
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:54 am

and maurice, you were also using your own feelings in the last thread (where did the press say KLM killed the rekkof project )



the spokesman of Rekkof said it in the radio interview



you lose  Wink
 
keesje
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:03 am

I think Hartman picked up the phone said the Fokkers are doing fine at this moment. Hartman told Rekkof they would have a better chance if they put new more fuel efficient engines on the aircraft.

Burlage picked it up, saw news value and made loose comments into a possible announcement of a new aircrafty manufacturer.

KLM isn't in the business of financing / launching aerospace companies.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Dakota
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
and maurice, you were also using your own feelings in the last thread (where did the press say KLM killed the rekkof project )



the spokesman of Rekkof said it in the radio interview

MauriceB, I am curious about which spokesman of Rekkof said this and where.
 
aviopic
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:40 am

Guess Rekkof is reading this forum too Big grin
Anyway the story is quite simple, the initial plan was indeed rejected so plan B was pulled of the shelf which is not a new plan btw but developed at the same time as plan A just in case.
Plan B is plan A with new engines where all the rest stays at it was.
Meaning the new wings and updated avionics from plan A combined with new engines, which sounds more reasonable to start with anyway.

Something did change today though.
At the sidelines(something like in between) I was working on a certain project without any hurry though.
Suddenly today I had to drop all I was doing because "this project" needs to be finished in the next 7 weeks, nobody told me why the rush so all of a sudden..... not that I would have been able to tell you anyway.

So who knows what the future might hold in store  Wink

WTH
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
mrocktor
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:00 am

And here we go again... ;D

New engines mean new certification, which in turn means 2 year's worth of development testing at the barest minimum. Due to the F70 and F100's great structural efficiency, a new technology engine could make them competitive with the E-jets.

A "new" engine, i.e. an existing engine put on the Fokker could shorten that development period, on the other hand the resulting airframe/engine combination would not overwhelm existing established players in terms of performance.

I believe there is no marketplace solution that would put Fokker back in business. Government interference can change that, of course.

mrocktor
 
planemaker
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
A "new" engine, i.e. an existing engine put on the Fokker could shorten that development period...

True... but then why even bother with new builds???? With the number of airfarmes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
gigneil
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:04 am

KLM would be crazy to buy a plane with no solid foundation in other customers.

Otherwise, Rekkof could easily fold right after or during delivery of KLM's order, with no support path available.

N
 
mrocktor
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 15):
but then why even bother with new builds???? With the number of airfarmes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.

I'm not familiar with that kind of thing. How hard is it to STC an engine? Considering it affects performance so much it can't be simple.

mrocktor
 
aviopic
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
New engines mean new certification, which in turn means 2 year's worth of development testing at the barest minimum.

No I don't think so.
If I remember correctly the whole F100 certification was done in 14 months and that was a lot more then would be needed in this case.
Performance calculations are for the biggest part done by computer and simulations after which you only verify the gathered data by actually flying.

The most time consuming thing with certification is the airframe which didn't change for the F100 and won't change for the possible NG.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
Due to the F70 and F100's great structural efficiency, a new technology engine could make them competitive with the E-jets

Efficient it is, the airframe which basically still is an F28 airframe(although many parts switched from aluminum to composite) developed in the sixties is still lighter then Embraer or Bombardier ever managed not to mention Airbus and Boeing.


Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
Government interference can change that

Rekkof does not want Government influence.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 15):
With the number of airframes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.

That would be my idea too, who knows.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
Rekkof could easily fold right after or during delivery of KLM's order, with no support path available

Rekkof never had the intention to give any support, Fokker services committed itself to take that part.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 17):
How hard is it to STC an engine? Considering it affects performance so much it can't be simple.

In essence it is not different from a new engine with one difference though, you don't have to wait for that new engine.
Also we still have the proto F100 so if needed work can begin tomorrow.


WTH
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 15):
True... but then why even bother with new builds???? With the number of airfarmes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.

Yes, this can be the case. However, it's not only about new engines. It's the combination of new engines, new (or improved, dunno, maybe Aviopic knows) wings and new avionics that leads to the more efficient Fokker 70/100.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
aviopic
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 19):
It's the combination of new engines, new (or improved, dunno, maybe Aviopic knows) wings and new avionics that leads to the more efficient Fokker 70/100.

Yes Aviopic knows but Aviopic can not tell all he knows Big grin
Wings: yes and no.......it's a bit difficult to say right now.
The Fokker wings are one of the most efficient around being super critical(a Fokker patent).
Still it was never intention to use them on the new Rekkof not because the molds were destroyed by Shorts(Bombardier) as many people believed but because they are F100 wings and the main focus of Rekkof is the F70.
Whether the new wings are going to be super critical as well I do not know at this point, at least they are going to be F70 wings...... don't want to be more specific.

Avionics new engines will need some kind of Fadec system so that will be new.
The better economics of new engines is largely coming from the new electronic control and not so much from the engine.
It's like going from a carburetor to an computerized fuel injected engine.

Further there is no need to change much other then the replacement of the EFIS and MFDS crt's for LCD's which means that the now integrated symbol generators will become a new and separate item.
No need to develop something new here, Rockwell Collins has them on the shelf.
Don't forget that F70/100 development never stopped and they are very much up to date.
For example they are certified for Cat 3c autoland a thingy still not found in the 170/190 not to mention the B737NG.
Dedicated maintenance computer, dark cockpit philosophy, centralized fault annuciation are all items still not present on the 73NG.
A new AFCAS(Automatic Flight and Augmentation System) which in essence was a B76 autopilot but heavily modified(and I know cos i did it myself) was already developed before Fokker went down the drain and is just lying around and ready to put in place.

Guess the biggest F70/100 advantage is still weight and with new engines it can only get better.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
aviopic
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:09 am

The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 21):
More news from Iran !

http://www.mehrnews.ir/en/NewsDetail...49925

Now there's a good example in how not to write a clear article...

But in short, HESA is going to built 30% of the new parts needed for the Fokker 70 and 100...

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
lijnden
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:26 am

Happy to see that Iran is willing to buy Rekkofs. Soon other ME airliners will follow. How about Lufthansa, they showed some interest in the products of Rekkof? How about the other Sky-team partners like NWA and Delta/Song and Continental? What about Sweden? That was a large F-28 market. Maybe SAS will downscale some of the internal scandic flight to R-100's? And ofcourse the biggest potential country: Russia. Maybe Puttin was here last week to discuss a plane purchase to replace some of the old SU aircraft with R-100's?
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
Fokker70NG
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:33 am

The current developments around Rekkof almost forced me to become a A.net member, because it really made me wanting to participate in this discussions.  Smile

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 22):
Now there's a good example in how not to write a clear article...

But in short, HESA is going to built 30% of the new parts needed for the Fokker 70 and 100...

Is this only for Fokkers for the Iranian domestic market to get round the export bans? Or will they produce parts for all Fokkers which Rekkof will assemble (in case the project will succeed, of course)? Do you know which parts HESA will build?
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
aviopic
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 23):
And ofcourse the biggest potential country: Russia. Maybe Puttin was here last week to discuss a plane purchase to replace some of the old SU aircraft with R-100's?

Russia is showing interest for some time but not for new airframes(they have a perfect 70-100 seat themselves).
A potential customer wanted to operated existing F100's but the F100 was never certified in the USSR and authorities refused to settle with EASA and/or FAA certification, guess somebody applied a little pressure to correct the problem.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 24):
The current developments around Rekkof almost forced me to become a A.net member, because it really made me wanting to participate in this discussions.

You're welcome.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 24):
Is this only for Fokkers for the Iranian domestic market to get round the export bans?

We don't have an export ban with Iran but there is a technical embargo from the US to Iran.
At this point I don't see how they are going to solve the problem, I am already having difficulties getting 10 pee parts from the US with destination Iran.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Amy
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:04 am

I really want to see this happen!

Could the BR710 be a possible new engine? It has around the same (slightly higher) thrust and is well tested by the likes of Bombardier and Gulfstream.
A340-300 - slow, but awesome!
 
incitatus
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 18):
Efficient it is, the airframe which basically still is an F28 airframe(although many parts switched from aluminum to composite) developed in the sixties is still lighter then Embraer or Bombardier ever managed not to mention Airbus and Boeing.

Where did that one come from?
F70 empty operating weight is 49984 lb. E-170's is 46606 lbs.
Notice that the payload for the F70 is only 15800 lb while the E-170's is 19840 lbs. Not only is the Embraer lighter, it is a much better airframe overall. Do we need a range comparison? Rekkof is dead.
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sllevin
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:56 am

I can't believe that KL/AF would buy from Rekkof when they have not begun to tap the 60 (!) sub-15 year old F100's available right now, for bargain-basement (rumored to be less than $2 million each) prices.

The Tay engines are not that bad. Keep in mind that going from the ancient JT8 low bypass (DC-9) to high-bypass BR715 (state of the art in the 717) resulted in a 33% reduction in fuel burn.

I'd expect the Tay - 7XX series to be a handful of percent, nothing that could possibly be offset by the higher costs of buying a new aircraft.

Steve
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:24 am

I would love to see Rekkof succeed!

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 28):
I can't believe that KL/AF would buy from Rekkof when they have not begun to tap the 60 (!) sub-15 year old F100's available right now, for bargain-basement (rumored to be less than $2 million each) prices.

Available right now? Where? You can't buy a plane that's used by someone else. Almost all of those ~60 F100s have found an operator (or are being prepared for one). For instance, 29 exAA go to Synergy in South-America in the next couple of months. The ones that are left in the desert are for spares and will likely never fly again.
Besides, KL is mainly interested in the F70, which can not be found second-handed. Every operator that currently has them, wants to keep them.
 
planemaker
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:39 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 25):
Russia is showing interest for some time but not for new airframes(they have a perfect 70-100 seat themselves).
A potential customer wanted to operated existing F100's but the F100 was never certified in the USSR and authorities refused to settle with EASA and/or FAA certification, guess somebody applied a little pressure to correct the problem.

Actually, Putin is putting pressure on Russian carriers to sign on to the RRJ. If they, do the government will issue them import permits for Boeing and Airbus aircraft.

The F70/100 are great planes, but at the end of the day there just really isn't any sound commercial basis on which to revive them given all the various negative conditions that exist.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Fokker70NG
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:00 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 27):
F70 empty operating weight is 49984 lb. E-170's is 46606 lbs.

You shouldn't forget that the F70 seats 79 in standard config, against 70 in the E-170. I guess that counts too.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
Scorpio
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 23):
How about the other Sky-team partners like NWA and Delta/Song and Continental?

You don't expect a US airline to buy a plane that has 30% IRANIAN parts, do you?
 
jasond
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
I think it's a last PR attempt of Rekkof, I stopped believing in it.

This sounds like it but I would like to believe it. F28's and F100's have done and still do wonderful service where I live. There's nothing wrong with the airframe and look what a new engine can do to revitalising an aircraft. Good luck to all involved!!!
 
mrocktor
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 31):
You shouldn't forget that the F70 seats 79 in standard config, against 70 in the E-170. I guess that counts too.

What are the pitch, seat width, aisle width of the F70's standard config?

mrocktor
 
hardiwv
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 27):
Rekkof is dead.

Good summary!

Rgs,
 
Fokker70NG
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:35 am


I think this image clearly shows the OEW per seat is comparable with the modern RJ's. The OEW per seat of the F100 is even much lower than any modern RJ!

The cabin width of the Fokkers is 3.10m, where the width of the E-170 is 2.66m. So with new engines, Rekkof isn't dead at all. At least on paper.

By the way, today I spoke a Dutch journalist, and he had just spoken to KLM and Rekkof. He was able to tell me that Rekkof is going to retrofit a KLM Fokker with new engines, with maybe some more to follow. The idea is, if the retrofit will be succesful, that airlines will think about buying new Fokkers with new engines. So in the beginning it's just about retrofitting existing aircraft (at least that's what this journalist told me). Interesting, I think.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
incitatus
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 36):
I think this image clearly shows the OEW per seat is comparable with the modern RJ's.

Come on, this chart is totally biased!

On a superficial inspection, I can see the seat count for the E-175 is wrong. Also the scale doesn't help. The numbers are "tortured" to make Fokker look good.

On the F-70, Austrian's website says seating for 80 even though the seat map only shows 75 seats.

As for the F-100, can't compare it with 110 seats and the E-190 with 90 seats. With 88 seats the E-190 can be configured entirely with F class domestic pitch of 36". Meanwhile the F-100 will be packed like a sardine can.
Stop pop up ads
 
Joost
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 37):

Come on, this chart is totally biased!

It is from the Rekkof marketing department, that's why  Wink
 
Fokker70NG
Posts: 218
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 37):
Come on, this chart is totally biased!

Of course it is, but I don't feel like calculating it all by myself. Although I must admit it is somewhat biased, you must admit that even if you adjust the numbers somewhat to make a more realistic comparison, the Fokkers are still comparable with modern RJ's. With a wider cabin  Wink

Hey, let's face it, you're biased and so am I.  Wink
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:21 am

I'm not from Brazil or the Netherllands  Wink

..and I'd love it if the Rekkof F-100s started selling more than all those ugly small jets such as the Embraers, A318s, etc..
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1497
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 36):
By the way, today I spoke a Dutch journalist, and he had just spoken to KLM and Rekkof. He was able to tell me that Rekkof is going to retrofit a KLM Fokker with new engines, with maybe some more to follow. The idea is, if the retrofit will be succesful, that airlines will think about buying new Fokkers with new engines. So in the beginning it's just about retrofitting existing aircraft (at least that's what this journalist told me). Interesting, I think.

Now that won't help, because plan B from Rekkof is a sort of new wing, new avionics and new engines. So, fitting new engines can help, but it won't be the same as the whole package.

Also, I don't think Rekkof is up for the retrofitting business. If there's anything being planned in this direction it will be done by Fokker Services, which is looking into more market expansion because of the decreasing number of Fokkers flying. Therefore Fokker Services is a cheerleader for the Rekkof plan, because it means more business for them as they will be the main service partner.

Last note, I don't know if it's possible to retrofit the Fokkers with new engines, maybe Aviopic can help us out (again  Wink). There could be a market out there, however, secondhand Fokkers are doing quite well at the moment, with the current engines.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
incitatus
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 39):
Of course it is, but I don't feel like calculating it all by myself. Although I must admit it is somewhat biased, you must admit that even if you adjust the numbers somewhat to make a more realistic comparison, the Fokkers are still comparable with modern RJ's. With a wider cabin .

You don't feel like calculating it yourself but you are perfectly fine with posting garbage information?

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 39):

Hey, let's face it, you're biased and so am I.

No I am not. I have not posted deceiving advertising info from Embraer to make my point.

Do we need to go into other weaknesses of the F-100/F-70, such as payload and the turbines on the rear that once in a while blow up and hit passengers in the cabin?
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AMSSFO
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42):
the turbines on the rear that once in a while blow up and hit passengers in the cabin?

When did that happen?
 
Allessandro
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:55 am

Does anybody know which engines Rekkof is looking into?? I have checked the sites of RR, PWC and GE and found these three options in the range upto 20.000 lbs

Rolls Royce BR710
Rated Thrust 16.000 LBS

Pratt&Whitney Canada PW800
Rated thrust 10000-20000 LBS

General Electric CF34-10
Max rated thrust 18500LBS

It would of course be nice to see the GE34-10 on the new F100 because then we can actually see which difference the airframe of the E-190 makes compared to the F100... however I have strong believe that they will stick to RR... Time will tell...

BTW anybody handy with Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop... love to see a "re-engined" F70 of F100...
 
Fokker70NG
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 41):
Also, I don't think Rekkof is up for the retrofitting business. If there's anything being planned in this direction it will be done by Fokker Services, which is looking into more market expansion because of the decreasing number of Fokkers flying. Therefore Fokker Services is a cheerleader for the Rekkof plan, because it means more business for them as they will be the main service partner.

Well, apparently the journalist got it wrong then.  Smile

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42):
You don't feel like calculating it yourself but you are perfectly fine with posting garbage information?

I don't think it's garbage. The OEW's seem to be rather correct, but of course it's somewhat biased. However, even if you add 2000kg to the Fokker OEW it still shows that Fokker is not far behind the modern RJ's concerning weight.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42):
Do we need to go into other weaknesses of the F-100/F-70, such as payload and the turbines on the rear that once in a while blow up and hit passengers in the cabin?

Never heard of that, care to explain?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42):

No I am not. I have not posted deceiving advertising info from Embraer to make my point.

I think every Brazilian or Dutchman is somewhat biased concerning Fokker or Embraer, but if you're not, I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Embraer or something like that, I even like the Embraers a lot. It's just that I think Rekkof has a chance of restarting the Fokker 70 productionline, and of course I wouldn't mind.  Wink

Quoting Allessandro (Reply 44):
It would of course be nice to see the GE34-10 on the new F100 because then we can actually see which difference the airframe of the E-190 makes compared to the F100...

Would be very interesting indeed, but I think they will opt for RR, because RR was already involved with plan A.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
aviopic
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 26):
Could the BR710 be a possible new engine?

Would be a very good choice, to be honest it was already selected for an update when Fokker was still alive.
So who knows how much of the engineering is already done  Wink

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 27):
Rekkof is dead.

Huh ??? to my best knowledge there are still people working there and just 2 months ago they signed a contract with Fokker Services.
Of course the Rekkof situation might be much clearer in Brasil. Big grin

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 28):
for bargain-basement (rumored to be less than $2 million each) prices.

No rumor, they are sold for around 1.5 million and for another 1.5 they are fully serviced and updated by Fokker Services which is why you won't find much in the dessert. They are moving as fast as we can service them.
Operators like Germania are having the time of there life !

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 29):
For instance, 29 exAA go to Synergy in South-America in the next couple of months.

Yup, doing overtime every night to get them done.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 41):
Now that won't help, because plan B from Rekkof is a sort of new wing, new avionics and new engines. So, fitting new engines can help, but it won't be the same as the whole package.

Guess there is even a plan C haha.
If you read this and other post careful you could have figured out that at some point after performance and simulation calculations you need those engines fitted on a aircraft for certification.  Wink
The benefits ?....... by the time Rekkof can deliver it's first aircraft it is already certified might be the possible answer..... who knows ?

Quoting Allessandro (Reply 44):
Does anybody know which engines Rekkof is looking into??

I go for RR as risk taking partner, it has something to do with Snecma and Bombardier that's all I want to say right now.
It's a nice story for later though.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 45):
I don't think it's garbage. The OEW's seem to be rather correct, but of course it's somewhat biased. However, even if you add 2000kg to the Fokker OEW it still shows that Fokker is not far behind the modern RJ's concerning weight.

Don't bother Fokker70NG...... you get used to it Big grin


Till later guys,
WTH
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
sllevin
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
The Fokker wings are one of the most efficient around being super critical(a Fokker patent).

Still it was never intention to use them on the new Rekkof ...

Whether the new wings are going to be super critical as well I do not know at this point, at least they are going to be F70 wings...... don't want to be more specific.

Without the same wings, you have defined an entirely new aircraft. Changing engines is one thing, but wings are something else entirely. Going from a supercritical design to a non-supercritical design means the entire characteristics are bound to change.

You really just have two aircraft with a common fuselage at that point.

If they aren't using the Fokker-designed wings, that reduces my belief (small as it is) by a couple orders of magnitude that they'll ever do anything.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 29):
For instance, 29 exAA go to Synergy in South-America in the next couple of months.

Yes, after sitting forever, and being part of other deals that tanked. What about the 18 ex-Jetsgo birds? Bottom line, KL didn't show any interest, and if they did, they could get those birds -- and at a cost that would make flying 80 seat F100's (if they had to do so) worthwhile.

Steve
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 47):
What about the 18 ex-Jetsgo birds?

3 will go to Carpatair (of which one will be placed with Moldavian); they are now serviced at DNR and the first one will be delivered soon
5 will go to Austrian Arrows; they are being prepared at WOE
1 or 2 will go to Aero Mongolia
1 is going to Ford
the rest might go to DBA/Germania (but I am not sure of that)

KL did just pick up 3 former Pelita F100s right after they were returned to the lessor.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement

Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 46):
If you read this and other post careful you could have figured out that at some point after performance and simulation calculations you need those engines fitted on a aircraft for certification. Wink
The benefits ?....... by the time Rekkof can deliver it's first aircraft it is already certified might be the possible answer..... who knows ?

Hmm.. Willem, I somehow got the feeling you know more than you're willing to tell here...  Wink

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 48):
KL did just pick up 3 former Pelita F100s right after they were returned to the lessor.

It's also said that KLM is going to pick up the Air France F70's and F100's.

Cheers!  wave 
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