FA4UA
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Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:56 am

According to a very poorly written article dated 07NOV05 in the FT, UA and VS have come to some sort of an agreement for slot leasing at LHR. The article doesn't say who's leasing the slots from who and where they'll be using them for. Very frustrating to see this nebulous article especially from such a news leader like the FT.

Does anyone have any other info on this subject?

FA4UA

Sorry if this is a duplicate subject/post... i did search first!
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Kahala777
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:15 pm

It I believe was the release of the slot for the second daily, now cancelled JFK-LHR flight operated by United Airlines.

KAHALA777
 
commavia
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:19 pm

United will be leasing a single pair of slots to Virgin.

From the article:

Virgin Atlantic, the UK long-haul airline controlled by Sir Richard Branson, has agreed a deal with United Airlines of the US on a five-year lease of a pair of take-off and landing slots at London Heathrow, one of the world's most congested airports.

It goes on to discuss United's very active trading in the Heathrow slot "grey market," having sold two slot pairs to BA last year, leased one pair to Jet this year, and now leasing this pair to Virgin for five years.

As Kahala said, this is most likely the slot that will be freed up by the loss of United's second LHR-JFK-LHR flight.
 
Pomnath
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:55 pm

This grey trading market in slots, sounds a bit like buying a title of nobility in England, but is so typical.

Unused slots should be surrendered and re-sold by the BAA.
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Beany
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 3):
This grey trading market in slots, sounds a bit like buying a title of nobility in England, but is so typical.

Get over it will you, next you will be trying to include Prince Harry in this as you usually do.

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 3):
Unused slots should be surrendered and re-sold by the BAA.

BAA have nothing to do with the slots at LHR. There is nothing wrong with United leasing slots to other airlines. It happens all the time.
 
777ER
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:04 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 3):
Unused slots should be surrendered and re-sold by the BAA.

And why should UA do that and loose money when they purchased the slots?
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backfire
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:09 pm

The real story isn't about a poxy pair of slots at Heathrow but the reformation of the slot-allocation procedures which Brussels is trying to organise.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:18 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 3):
Unused slots should be surrendered and re-sold by the BAA.

Unused Heathrow slots for US flights by US carriers should not be permitted to be leased to any non-US carrier. If we have to be bound by this damn Bermuda2 crap, then it is beyond stupid that such a coveted destination for US carriers be robbed from us because the custodian of those slots is in BK and can't handle them.

Let CO or US fly there already and end all this crap.
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AirNZ
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Unused Heathrow slots for US flights by US carriers should not be permitted to be leased to any non-US carrier. If we have to be bound by this damn Bermuda2 crap

Other than the fact that slots (as far as I'm aware, but stand to be corrected) have nothing to do with Bermuda II, who do you propose should be able to ban either UA or any other airline from leasing/selling slots which they themselves purchased?
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sparkingwave
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:36 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Bermuda2 crap

You misunderstand Bermuda 2. It restricts the number of US Airlines flying into Heathrow, not the number of slots. Other airlines can fly to London, just not Heathrow, so what's your real complaint?

United has the right to do what it well pleases with slots that it purchased fairly and squarely from Pan Am. It's in UA's best interests to lease them if they can't make money from them.

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Revelation
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 9):
United has the right to do what it well pleases with slots that it purchased fairly and squarely from Pan Am.



Quoting Beany (Reply 4):
BAA have nothing to do with the slots at LHR.

Sorry if this is a FAQ, but who did issue the original leases on slots that we are talking about? On what terms? If UA is sub-leasing slots that were granted to Pan Am, the original leases must be very long term. Can they be revoked? Under what circumstances?
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Pomnath
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:46 pm

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 8):
Other than the fact that slots (as far as I'm aware, but stand to be corrected) have nothing to do with Bermuda II, who do you propose should be able to ban either UA or any other airline from leasing/selling slots which they themselves purchased



Quoting Beany (Reply 4):
Get over it will you, next you will be trying to include Prince Harry in this

Yeah, I know, tel me about it. Something like the British Government handing over the rights to the Chagos Archipelago to the US, right? Is that where Prince Harry comes in, by the way, the Colonial Vee Sold Itt Because Vee Can bit?

Quoting Beany (Reply 4):
BAA have nothing to do with the slots at LHR. There is nothing wrong with United leasing slots to other airlines. It happens all the time.

Yup, and the tax-paying British public pays the bills. That's cool.
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AF022
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:58 pm

OK, but what about the $$$?

What are the terms of the lease? Does anyone know?

And what is the going rate if UA had wanted to sell the slots?
 
N62NA
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Unused Heathrow slots for US flights by US carriers should not be permitted to be leased to any non-US carrier. If we have to be bound by this damn Bermuda2 crap, then it is beyond stupid that such a coveted destination for US carriers be robbed from us because the custodian of those slots is in BK and can't handle them.

Let CO or US fly there already and end all this crap.

Scary, but I agree in principle with Ikramerica!
 
Kahala777
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 3):
This grey trading market in slots, sounds a bit like buying a title of nobility in England, but is so typical.

Unused slots should be surrendered and re-sold by the BAA.

Pomnath, the forum Elitest is at work yet again!  headache 

For your information United Airlines is leasing the slots to the highest bidder. There is not one single US airline that is in financial shape to be purchasing slots at Heathrow. Perhaps there is a time when that may happen, but for now as nearly all US airlines in a financial crisis it is not going to happen. Furthermore, why should United offer a slot to its competition in North America?

KAHALA777
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Let CO or US fly there already and end all this crap.

Why CO or US and not DL may I ask?
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incitatus
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Unused Heathrow slots for US flights by US carriers should not be permitted to be leased to any non-US carrier. If we have to be bound by this damn Bermuda2 crap, then it is beyond stupid that such a coveted destination for US carriers be robbed from us because the custodian of those slots is in BK and can't handle them.

Let CO or US fly there already and end all this crap.

Agreed 100%. It's time for CO, US, DL and NW to drag the Brit butts into a WTO court and end this nonsense.
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Pomnath
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:29 am

a) You lease or buy a slot from BAA for your own use.

b) After some time, you don't want to, or can't, use the slot anymore.

c) So then you resell the slot at a profit.

Q1- why run an airline, why not just trade slots.
Q2- why subsidise BAA, if they can't look after their own slots.
Q3- why return Hong Kong to the Chinese? (oops, wrong forum).

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 14):
Pomnath, the forum Elitest is at work yet again!

Excuse me?
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Kahala777
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 17):
Excuse me?

You have a deep seeded hatred for Virgin Atlantic as can be seen in any forum you try to hijack!

KAHALA777
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:57 am

Okay kids, let's behave now....What I'm wondering is how many slots is UAL left with after it sells/leases left and right. Do any of you oh-wise wo/men know?  Cool
 
Lufthansa747
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:04 am

Pomnath,

You're quite the guy here... I have been laughing at your trash for days.

G-VBUS is a Nigerian aircraft I understood. Care to tell me why it's in the British registry if it's indeed Nigerian??

UA sure can sell the slots to me and my start up European airline (if only I had one...). What the H*ll does BAA have to do with this? If I have a $100 note, sure I can exchange it at any bank I please. If UA has a pair of slots, sure UA can lease them to Orient Thai, Jetstar Asia or Finncomm Airlines for what I care??
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Kahala777
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 19):
What I'm wondering is how many slots is UAL left with after it sells/leases left and right


Current Slot Estimations
(10-11)

Destinations: JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD, IAD

Past Slot Estimations
(20-18)

Destinations: BOS, JFK, EWR, MIA, SEA, SFO, LAX, ORD, DEL, BRU



KAHALA777

[Edited 2005-11-08 17:14:59]
 
baflyer
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 12):
And what is the going rate if UA had wanted to sell the slots?

I'd be interested to know as well.

I'm sure the actual details are shrouded in secrecy but does anyone know ballpark figures for

1) How much a pair of slots might be worth outright
2) and now much VS might be paying to lease them
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commavia
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 19):
What I'm wondering is how many slots is UAL left with after it sells/leases left and right.

It will be 11 daily slot-pairs (11 arrivals/11 departures):

3x IAD*
3x ORD
2x SFO
1x JFK
1x LAX

*Note: IAD goes to 4x daily for summer 2006
 
cornish
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting BAflyer (Reply 22):
Quoting AF022 (Reply 12):
And what is the going rate if UA had wanted to sell the slots?

I'd be interested to know as well.

I'm sure the actual details are shrouded in secrecy but does anyone know ballpark figures for

1) How much a pair of slots might be worth outright

Qantas bought a pair of slots not so long ago from Flybe for something in the region of 20 million pounds....a record i believe.
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Stitch
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 12):
And what is the going rate if UA had wanted to sell the slots?

I believe UA received around $20 million for the two slots they sold to BA. So a five year lease is probably worth a few million a year (which is sad that UA can't make that in cargo and passengers on the route, even though they have almost zero presence in JFK).
 
UAcosCS
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 17):
a) You lease or buy a slot from BAA for your own use.

b) After some time, you don't want to, or can't, use the slot anymore.

c) So then you resell the slot at a profit.

If you have an asset like a LHR slot, why do you have to sell it if not used? I have an extra car I use very seldom, do I have to sell it because I don't drive it daily?

You do dislike VS don't you.
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cornish
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 26):
If you have an asset like a LHR slot, why do you have to sell it if not used? I have an extra car I use very seldom, do I have to sell it because I don't drive it daily?

Because the airport is so constrained, there are rules that if slots aren't used they can be reallocated. Explains why BA and VS did a deal not so long ago for BA to operate services using a couple of VS slots that VS weren't in a position to use yet. they were in danger of losing them, so a deal was done with BA to use them in the meantime until VS are able to use them for a particular service and with the aircraft they plan to further down the line.
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MichiganMAN
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
to drag the Brit butts into a WTO court and end this nonsense.

Why the British?
Didn't the Americans agree to Bermuda II also?
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ManchesterMAN
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:22 am

Where will VS use this slot pair to fly to? DXB maybe? I would imagine UA might "ask" VS not to use the slot on a route which UA serves as this could harm their business. If VS use it to fly east then not really a problem for UA.
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cornish
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 29):
Where will VS use this slot pair to fly to? DXB maybe? I would imagine UA might "ask" VS not to use the slot on a route which UA serves as this could harm their business. If VS use it to fly east then not really a problem for UA.

VS couldn't fly to any new routes in the US at present under Bermuda II, but to be honest they have their sights on new destinations away from the US at present. DXB slots are already allocated, I suspect they wouldn't add capacity yet until the route has been successfully established.

Further India services are most likely with the slots, other possibilities could be Toronto, Rio, Beijing, or maybe increased Nigeria flights......I suspect they will go on India though, as the bilateral is allowing further flights now to those originally agreed.
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lightsaber
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:41 am

aagh! Just build the ^&%# third runway at LHR and offer another 50% more slots at auction. Maybe do a few auctions separated by two or three years. Of course that would mean starting construction of Terminal 6...  bigthumbsup 

There will never be enough slots at LHR to meet demand. Accept that. I would rather have a secondary market in slots than have airlines hoarding slots for future use.

Although I find the idea of leasing a slot "interesting" to say the least.

Lightsaber
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commavia
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 31):
aagh! Just build the ^&%# third runway at LHR and offer another 50% more slots at auction.

Exactly! Stop all of the damn arguing, bickering, forums, discussions, speeches, environmental impact studies, white papers, etc., and please stop with all this B.S. about building a terminal out in Dover or wherever else. Build a third runway so that U.S. airlines -- and all airlines -- can get access to more LHR slots!
 
MichiganMAN
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
Exactly! Stop all of the damn arguing, bickering, forums, discussions, speeches, environmental impact studies, white papers, etc., and please stop with all this B.S. about building a terminal out in Dover or wherever else. Build a third runway so that U.S. airlines -- and all airlines -- can get access to more LHR slots!

If a third runway is built, and all slots are used and a new Heathrow is busting at the seams again, then what? When does the expansion stop?
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egmcman
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 31):
aagh! Just build the ^&%# third runway at LHR and offer another 50% more slots at auction. Maybe do a few auctions separated by two or three years. Of course that would mean starting construction of Terminal 6

If only it was that simple to build an additional runway. You don't seem to appreciate the affect it will have on peoples lives and their write to appeal on environmental grounds at both local and European level.
 
UAcosCS
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 27):
Because the airport is so constrained, there are rules that if slots aren't used they can be reallocated. Explains why BA and VS did a deal not so long ago for BA to operate services using a couple of VS slots that VS weren't in a position to use yet. they were in danger of losing them, so a deal was done with BA to use them in the meantime until VS are able to use them for a particular service and with the aircraft they plan to further down the line.

I agree with what you're saying. Kind of what I was saying is that they just stopped the JFK-LHR route, leasing them(slot) is an easier way to show use, vs selling the slot outright.

Leasing it to VS was a good idea, in my opinion, it gives UAL 5 years to decide if they want to keep the slot for future route/routes.
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nighthawk
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:52 am

This From The Free Dictionary (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Heathrow%20Airport)

Whilst the cost of a landing slot is determined by the CAA and BAA, the allocation of landing slots at Heathrow to airlines is carried out by Airport Co-ordination Limited (ACL). ACL is an independent non-profit organisation whose slot allocation programme is governed by British and European law and IATA Worldwide Scheduling Guidelines. ACL is funded by ten British airlines, tourism operators and BAA, which pay the ACL a fee for providing scheduling information. The apparent conflict between the need to provide an independent slot allocation service and serving the interests of the funding airlines is waved away by ACL, who state that:

No member airline receives direct benefit, in terms of preferential treatment in slot allocation decisions made by ACL. All airlines are treated the same, in accordance with UK and European Slot Regulations which ensure that decisions made by ACL are made in a 'neutral, transparent and non-discriminatory' way. Members believe that it is reasonable for them to contribute to the cost of slot allocation in the UK, since the cost of the coordination task in other countries is borne by their Governments or national carriers. Contributing to the cost of ACL avoids the need for Government intervention of control of slot allocation and ensures that all the airlines receive a high quality coordination service. Any airline may apply to join ACL, and the Company is pro-active in seeking to expand its membership base. [3]

There have been calls for the slot allocation process to be made a free market at Heathrow and elsewhere. (see e.g. Centre for Land Policy Studies [4]). See also [5] for an account of the economics of the European Airline market.

In addition, air traffic between Heathrow and the United States is strictly governed by the countries' bilateral Bermuda II treaty. The treaty originally allowed only British Airways, Pan Am, and TWA to fly from Heathrow to the US. In 1991, PAA and TWA sold their rights to United Airlines and American Airlines respectively, and Virgin Atlantic Airways was added to the list of airlines allowed to operate on these routes. In 2002, American Airlines and British Airways announced plans to coordinate the scheduling of their trans-Atlantic routes but plans were dropped after the United States Department of Transportation made approval conditional on the granting of further access slots to Heathrow to other US airlines. AA and BA considered the slots too valuable and dropped the plans. [6] The Bermuda bilateral agreement conflicts with the Right of Establishment of the United Kingdom in terms of its membership in the EU, and as a consequence the UK was ordered to drop the agreement by about 2004.

-------

Additionally, all heathrow slots are free, when slots become available the ACL will assign them as they see fit, and no fee is required. If an airline fails to use their slots (i think its if they are unused for 12 months?) they are returned to the pool and re-issued.

However once a slot has been assigned to an airline, they may sell or lease them on as they see fit. As mentioned previously, a single pair of slots at heathrow can cost about £20m.
 
vv701
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
Build a third runway so that U.S. airlines -- and all airlines -- can get access to more LHR slots!

EU law - that takes precedence over UK law - states that industrial and commercial development is forbidden in any area where atmospheric pollution exceeds a certain level. LHR is situated at the junction of the M25 London Orbital Motorway and the M4 London to South Wales Motorway. With the automobile exhaust fumes supplementing the fumes from aviation fuel the EU limit is currently exceeded.

In practical terms this means that if BAA made an application for planning permission for a third LHR runway it would require just one private individual to object on the grounds of environmental pollution for the planning authority to have no choice but to reject the application the application thrown out.

The British government has said that it is in favour of a (short) parallel third runway (to be used for shorthaul traffic) to be built north of the current runways (between the A4 and M4 roads). However confronted with the EU laws, the UK's government's attitude is to wait until 2012 or later in the (forlorn?) hope that technological advances in both motor and aero powerplants will result in a lower level of atmospheric pollution despite expected increases in traffic.

Frankly I despair at the above but as far as I can see this is the perfect Catch 22 situation that can only be resolved by UK leaving the EU. With current political attitudes that is less likely than there being blue moon tonight.

As I have said in another recent thread with the exception of the exceptionally short and traffic restricted runway at LCY, the last runway to be laid down in south east England was the single paved runway at LGW that was opened in 1958 - almost half a century ago - to replace that airport's former grass strip. At that time LHR had three runways so the net increase in runways in over half a century in the south east is a big fat ZERO.

While, of course, we are all NIMBYs at heart, two things are clear to me. The first is that the London areas pre-eminence in European civil aviation is under significant threat because successive British governments have shelved making decisions on the future of London's airports since the proposal to build a new airport at Wing / Cublington in Buckinghamshire was dropped at the end of the 60s. The second is that other European governments are not going to allow any relaxation of the EU environmental rules when the beneficiaries of this impasse are going to be the likes of CDG and AMS and the French and Dutch economies.
 
commavia
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting MichiganMAN (Reply 33):
When does the expansion stop?

When there is no more room to expand. Right now, Heathrow could be expanded to a third runway with a relatively minimal impact on the people around Heathrow (i.e., wrecking neighborhoods). Painful, but necessary. However, it would not be as easy to build a fourth runway.

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 34):
You don't seem to appreciate the affect it will have on peoples lives and their write to appeal on environmental grounds at both local and European level.

I fully recognize the "effect it will have on people's lives," and frankly, while I empathize, I still don't understand why that -- of all reasons -- should justify holding up the economic prominence and air travel superiority of an entire region, and nation. Probably 99% of the people living in affected areas have lived in those areas since Heathrow was built, not before it was built. Thus, they knew what they were getting (i.e., noise, pollution, etc.) when they moved in. Thus, the U.K. government should pay them off, bulldoze their houses, and give the region's and country's economy a shot in the arm.

Unfortunately, the U.K. is letting environmental impact studies and the noise and congestion complaints of a tiny proportion of the U.K. population effectively dictate the aviation (and, to some extent, the economic policy) of an entire country. Lunacy!

Quoting VV701 (Reply 37):
EU law - that takes precedence over UK law - states that industrial and commercial development is forbidden in any area where atmospheric pollution exceeds a certain level.

Tragic, so tragic.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 21):
Past Slot Estimations
(20-18)

Destinations: BOS, JFK, EWR, MIA, SEA, SFO, LAX, ORD, DEL, BRU

Kahala,

Don't forget the flight over to AMS.

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 17):
Q3- why return Hong Kong to the Chinese? (oops, wrong forum).

Did the British exactly have a chance? Were they to go to war or try to give up just the New Territories instead of all of Hong Kong? (Since I believe only the N.T. lease was expired) Not sure what the argument is here.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 31):
aagh! Just build the ^&%# third runway at LHR and offer another 50% more slots at auction. Maybe do a few auctions separated by two or three years. Of course that would mean starting construction of Terminal 6...

Have they ever said anything about how they will handle the slots if they build this runway? From what I have heard, it will be a shorter one that will mainly accomodate EU traffic. Is this correct? Will they offer discounted rates to get the EU carriers flying smaller a/c like 737s and A320s to use this runway instead of the main ones so that they can free up capacity on the main ones?
 
AirNZ
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:03 pm

RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 11):
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 8):
Other than the fact that slots (as far as I'm aware, but stand to be corrected) have nothing to do with Bermuda II, who do you propose should be able to ban either UA or any other airline from leasing/selling slots which they themselves purchased



Quoting Beany (Reply 4):
Get over it will you, next you will be trying to include Prince Harry in this

Yeah, I know, tel me about it. Something like the British Government handing over the rights to the Chagos Archipelago to the US, right? Is that where Prince Harry comes in, by the way, the Colonial Vee Sold Itt Because Vee Can bit?

Pomnath, what on earth nonsense are you talking about now.......and what exactly has your post got to do with my reply 8????
Am I missing something here or do you actually practice at being so asinine?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
Agreed 100%. It's time for CO, US, DL and NW to drag the Brit butts into a WTO court and end this nonsense

Excuse me, but do you need reminded that irrespective of whether or not any of us may like it, Bermuda II is an international treaty between two countries.
The US govt negiotated and signed it....no-one forced them to do either.
So, would you explain to me why you think the United Kingdom should be before a WTO court? On what grounds?
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boysteve
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 24):
Qantas bought a pair of slots not so long ago from Flybe for something in the region of 20 million pounds....a record i believe

Thats a lot of money just to operate a 146 shuttle to MAN  duck 
 
MichiganMAN
Posts: 137
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 38):
When there is no more room to expand. Right now, Heathrow could be expanded to a third runway with a relatively minimal impact on the people around Heathrow (i.e., wrecking neighborhoods). Painful, but necessary. However, it would not be as easy to build a fourth runway.

There is ALWAYS room to expand.........
if you can make an arguement to rip down peoples houses,
can't you therefore make an arguement to divert the M4 to an underpass..........
UK -> USA
 
daron4000
Posts: 604
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 30):
VS couldn't fly to any new routes in the US at present under Bermuda II,

I thought that VS flew to ORD and could, with the slots, start it at any time they wanted to. I don't think that this would hurt AA or UA, but rather BA, because, for example, Upper Class is nicer than Club World, which is already better than UA/AA's products, so if Americans like myself were flying Club, they could switch to Upper Class quite easily.
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting MichiganMAN (Reply 42):
There is ALWAYS room to expand.........
if you can make an arguement to rip down peoples houses,
can't you therefore make an arguement to divert the M4 to an underpass..........

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, this is a ridiculous argument.

Should we not expand highways in dense urban areas in the U.S., like New York, Boston, and L.A., that are burgeoning with ten times the amount of auto traffic they were designed for, because 50 years from now they will need expansion again?

Should we not invest in urban light rail lines linking outlying suburbs with dense city centers in growing and sprawling metro areas like Dallas, Houston and San Francisco, because in a few decades new demographic patterns will mean more trains, new lines, or the rerouting of some tracks?

Should we not build more runways at airports in the U.S. with high growth potential like Miami, Chicago, D/FW, etc., because they may need more runways again in thirty years?

Heathrow needs to be expanded desperately, for the sake of the economic wellbeing of the London region, for the sake of the British economy, for the sake of the airlines that currently serve the airport and those that so badly want to, and in the interests of free and open competition for the world's airlines at arguably the world's most prestigous and desirable airport.

Saying that we should not expand Heathrow now because it may be a "slipper slope" and require more expansion latter is a hollow argument. The fact that growth at Heathrow will continue -- after all, it's called free market capitalism, isn't it? -- does not mitigate the need for expansion of the facilities and airfield there now.

Cheers.
 
Lufthansa747
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting MichiganMAN (Reply 42):

There is ALWAYS room to expand.........
if you can make an arguement to rip down peoples houses,
can't you therefore make an arguement to divert the M4 to an underpass..........

Just make it .

Don't bitch about noise and this and that. Decent compensation to the fokls and double the slots.
Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
 
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Revelation
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:46 am

Nighthawk, you da man! Great web page.

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 36):
Contributing to the cost of ACL avoids the need for Government intervention of control of slot allocation and ensures that all the airlines receive a high quality coordination service.

It also avoids the Government deciding to just lease the slots one year at a time, and allocating those leases to the highest bidder. How magnanimous of the airlines!  Smile

Quoting Commavia (Reply 38):
I fully recognize the "effect it will have on people's lives," and frankly, while I empathize, I still don't understand why that -- of all reasons -- should justify holding up the economic prominence and air travel superiority of an entire region, and nation.

Um, because these people vote? And other voters really emphathize with them - if the government flattens my house, yours will be next?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 38):
Probably 99% of the people living in affected areas have lived in those areas since Heathrow was built, not before it was built. Thus, they knew what they were getting (i.e., noise, pollution, etc.) when they moved in.

But there's a difference between being next to an airway versus being right under an airway. And there's a difference being next to a runway, and being under a runway.

Far be it from me to oppose expansion, in fact I don't, but you have to find some accommodation to those directly impacted, or it just won't happen.

I was repulsed when here in the US, the Boston "Big Dig" project paid (in essence) kickbacks to merchants who lost money when the streets in front of their businesses were closed for construction. In an ideal world, they'd take one on the chin for the common good. Well, that is just not reality. Those merchants vote, their friends and neighbors vote, and so the payoffs were made. It's easy to talk about taking one on the chin for the common good, until it's your own chin we're talking about.

As for reasonable accommodation, I think paying full market value for those people's homes is a good place to start. Sadly what I've seen here in the US, they use some ancient outdated formula which totally screws over the homeowner when property is seized by eminent domain.
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MichiganMAN
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:47 am

RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 44):
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, this is a ridiculous argument.

why?
I can book a flight into Heathrow tomorrow on expedia if I wanted to.

It's not like ALL flights to London are booked up weeks in advance and people are being turned away at travel agents.
UK -> USA
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1269
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:23 am

Two Questions:
1) Do the slots have to be specific routes into LHR (such as the second JFK UA is leasing out), or can it be from anywhere in the US? I'm wondering this because it would seem to make sense at a certain level, to keep an additional LHR slot if UA were to begin a DEN-LHR flight (as has been rumored before...) Of course, if UA isn't making money, then it makes sense to lease it out, but still have control.

2) It sounds like LHR is the only major airport plagued by Bermuda II. NRT is also an extremely busy airport, on par with LHR, and is limited from any major expansions. What did we do right at NRT, that didn't work at LHR?

Thanks!
 
AirBuffalo
Posts: 83
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RE: Virgin, United Airlines In Heathrow Deal

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
Quoting AF022 (Reply 12):
So a five year lease is probably worth a few million a year (which is sad that UA can't make that in cargo and passengers on the route, even though they have almost zero presence in JFK).



Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 35):
Leasing it to VS was a good idea, in my opinion, it gives UAL 5 years to decide if they want to keep the slot for future route/routes.

Sounds like a pretty standard move under bankruptcy ... sell off non-core assets to solidify the bottom line. In this case they leased slots that are not being used and not part of their core operations (hub-and-spoke flying through their established hubs).

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 48):
1) Do the slots have to be specific routes into LHR (such as the second JFK UA is leasing out), or can it be from anywhere in the US?

good question... if VS is just going to turn around and use it for DXB or india service, what stops UA from changing the destination city as well?