hjulicher
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Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:58 am

Once the RRJ is fully implemented and built, what do you suppose will happen to the Russian Aerospace Industry? Do you see this aircraft being a sucess in the west? Will it be able to compete with the new embraer jets. Do you forsee these jets being sold in the west? Insight and speculation is the purpose of this discussion forum.

Basically, all I'm asking for is some insight about these aircraft. (You may be wondering why I have the russian flag decal but am asking this question. I searched the database and their hasn't been a discussion about the RRJ. I'm a dual citizen, but I chose to use the Russian flag moniker).

Here is a link to a website describing the capabilities of the jets.
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/sukhoi/

LH 442
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Thread starter):
Do you see this aircraft being a sucess in the west?

No way. At least not for a long time. People don't feel as safe on Russian aircraft as they do on western equipment. It would take years of safe operation before their aircraft would begin gaining acceptance in the west.

I'm not saying the perception is valid, but it's a reality the Russian Aerospace industry has to deal with.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
supa7E7
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 1):
No way. At least not for a long time. People don't feel as safe on Russian aircraft as they do on western equipment. It would take years of safe operation before their aircraft would begin gaining acceptance in the west.

I'm not saying the perception is valid, but it's a reality the Russian Aerospace industry has to deal with.

While I do not disagree, this is a bit odd to say because Russia is extremely advanced in aircraft design and production. They have aircraft track records and experience far FAR greater than a place such as Brazil. I feel even Brazilians would agree with this.

If we can trust the EMB-170 (and we can) it is time to accept a modern Russian jetliner. It's a world market, folks. Russians have been at this a long LONG time and they know what they are doing. For a competitive price, I do believe Russian builders have a future... someday. Especially if they use GE and RR engines.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
hz747300
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:10 pm

I contend 95-97% of the world's population does not care what plane they are on, nor do they know. They would be oblivious walking down the jetway as they took their seat on the RRJ, TU154, or whatever it is, most people don't have a checklist of models they want to fly. They just want to get there safely.

That said, what the Russian companies have to prove is that they can maintain a production line and have global availability for spare parts. The Russian aircraft manufacturers are going to have to fight to prove their products can succeed in a large scale worldwide operating fleet. It is more of a logistics issue, than a perception issue.

Boeing has partnered with Russian manufacturers which help with credibility, and Western powerplants will help drive interest from Western airlines. People are probably watching how the 35 plane sale to TNT from Tupolev goes then it may start to pick up momentum.

Western powerplants won't mean much to the general population, my guess is if you survey all the passengers on any flight less than 10% will know what type of engines are powering the plane, not accounting for lucky guesses.
Keep on truckin'...
 
supa7E7
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:26 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 3):
That said, what the Russian companies have to prove is that they can maintain a production line and have global availability for spare parts.

Yes, but how long has Tupolev been around? How about Antonov or Illuyshin (sp)?

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 3):
if you survey all the passengers on any flight less than 10% will know what type of engines are powering the plane

Yes who cares about passengers; it's the airlines that need convincing. And they'll probably insist on Western engines for maintenance reasons...
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
MarshalN
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:32 pm

Yeah, pax are clueless -- I bet you NOBODY knows where Embraers are from. Brazil? They'll think you're joking.

I do hope the Russians will succeed -- it will be great to have them desinging planes again and making them and flying them. It'll be a shame to really let the whole industry die.
 
concentriq
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:31 pm

succeed they will, i hope. i posted a comment about it a few days ago, but noone seemed to want to take a stab at it. My thinking is that if RRJ does not succeed, this will pretty much be the end of the aircraft industry in FSU, considering that not even domestic carriers want to buy russian (and ukranian) made planes. i REALLY hope it will not come down to that.
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Beaucaire
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:57 pm

Sukhoi should start by setting up a network uf associated support-companies .
Customers refrain from buying russian aircraft ,since the service- capabilities and air-frame knowledge among foreign service companies is nil.
Suppose an airline in Spain or Mexico is buying RRJ gear -if there are problems who will service the aircraft?
Russian built engines have service exclusively in Russia or Ukrain-that means expensive to maintain .
Once the service-aspect of any russian built airframe is improved,the sales situation will change.From a technical point I think the RRJ will become a top-technology aircraft with competetive passenger seat-milecost.If the price-performance ratio is OK,no reason not to consider Sukhoi or ,Antonov's or Tupolev's
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jeb94
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:37 pm

Antonov, Tupolev, Illyushin, and Sukhoi have all been around for some time. Antonov, Tupolev, and Illyushin in particular have a long history of producing airliners and other large aircraft. Sukhoi has designed and built some of the most advanced military aircraft in the world. Antonov and Tupolev have built some of the largest aircraft in the world throughout history. Some of the stigma that Russian aircraft builders face comes from their successful designs for the Russian market. These aircraft are very rugged yet crude compared to their western counterparts. This was due to the need to operate from crude airstrips. Now they need to catch up a bit in technology by automating their cockpits and generally making the aircraft less manpower intensive and more fuel effecient. This will happen and probably sooner rather than later in my opinion.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:56 pm

When is Certification due.
What dates.
regds
MEL
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a300
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:59 pm

We need the Russian and Ukranian aircraft. Countries like Iran and Cuba are in bad shape beacuse of the US embargo on commercial aircraft. I have flown on the Tu-154M of Iran Air Tour and Mahan Air several times. They feel very similar to the B727-200. In fact, I feel safer in an Iran Air Tour 10 year old Tu-154M than a 30 year old Iran Air B727-286A. I am flying both of these types next week! Next month, I hope to fly the Mahan Air Tu-204. The CIS avaition industry has an image problem that needs to be fixed with better support (as mentioned before by others).
Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
 
RedChili
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:54 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Thread starter):
Do you forsee these jets being sold in the west?

There are several problems associated with this.

1) Bad media publicity. Let's take an example and say that KLM won't be able to get updated Fokker's and will instead replace them with the Russian RJ. That would instantly be on the news in the Netherlands and all over the Europe: "Air France - KLM will buy Russian airplanes." If a journalist has previous negative experiences with any one of those airlines, he will milk this story for what it's worth. "Thousands of AF-KLM pax will fly with the Russian airplanes every day. Sukhoi, which has never made passenger airplanes before, has a shoddy record for their military airplanes. X airplanes out of Y planes produced of the Su-35 have crashed so far." The result would be that AF-KLM would lose lots of Russo-phobian pax who would be afraid of flying that jet. Will KL (or any other Western carrier) take that risk?

2) Dispatch reliability. Aeroflot is not very happy with the dispatch reliability of the IL-96, which is the most modern Russian airliner today. I think that before any major Western carrier will sign up for the RRJ, they will want to see it in service for several years first, to make sure that it's performing okay.

3) Availability of spare parts, as already mentioned.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
BAtriple7
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:00 pm

In the end, price wins out - if fares are low, pax will fly. Look at the DC10 - that got massive amounts of bad publicity but pax still flew on them. Studies show that air crashes have fairly little long-term effect on pax numbers.

Back on topic, I hope the RRJ is successful - can't wait to see more Russian airliners in the EU!
 
traveler_7
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:17 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Suppose an airline in Spain or Mexico is buying RRJ gear -if there are problems who will service the aircraft?

Since Boeing is involved in the project perhaps they could organize service? at least in Americas?

Is there any commonality on the level of spear parts or they are unique?
 
Lumberton
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:24 pm

So far all the comments have addressed the image of Russian aircraft, logistics, safety, etc. All very important considerations, but is there a M-A-R-K-E-T? This aircraft will go head to head with Embraer and the C-Series (if it's built). From everything I've read on the internet, this is a fine aircraft, with an excellent engine from Powerjet (a JV of SNECMA and NPO Saturn). Who will buy them? I think Aeroflot is about to sign an agreement for 30, but this thing needs to sell outside Russia to be a success. Don't forget that Antonov and Tupolov are also building aircraft in this segment.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
hjulicher
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:09 pm

Quoting Concentriq (Reply 6):
this will pretty much be the end of the aircraft industry in FSU, considering that not even domestic carriers want to buy russian (and ukranian) made planes. i REALLY hope it will not come down to that.

I don't think that domestic operators are opposed to buying russian aircraft, I just think that they're not competitive with western planes in areas like fuel efficiency. Therefore, it makes sense for Russian airlines to operate western fleets. Also, if somebody from the west decided to fly aeroflot, they would hold better regard of aeroflot, if they flew on a western jet. Most passengers do know what they're flying on, and the condition of the interior is very important. The safety card says what airplane it is.

I know many of these planes will be bought by the russian companies since they need to operate so many russian planes so that they're not taxed by the government. I see a large market just to begin in Russia.

Is it really speculated that the cost might be equivolent to that of embraer? Labor is relatively low in Russia, so I can't see that this airplane, small as it is, would cost so much, especially with all the money the government is contributing. Anyways, the russian aerospace industry never did infiltrate into the west, so the RRJ is making new head way and is totally new territory for the russian manufacuters.

If KLM were to purchase the RRJ, I understand the risk that they would take with publicity, but for all those flying with KLM, how many can be russophobic. Additionally, what is the likelihood that the passengers will actually know that they're flying on an RRJ. The interior will be completely in line with western airframes. KLM exploits the Fokker100 but, but it's not like it's a vital airframe for their fleet. They use it on this short routes throughout northwestern europe.
LH 442
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 3):
I contend 95-97% of the world's population does not care what plane they are on, nor do they know. They would be oblivious walking down the jetway as they took their seat on the RRJ, TU154, or whatever it is, most people don't have a checklist of models they want to fly. They just want to get there safely.

I think you're wrong. Why does Aeroflot fly western jets to the west almost exclusively? It's because of public perception about the equipment.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
supa7E7
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 16):
It's because of public perception about the equipment.

You are clueless. It has nothing to do with public perception, whatever that is.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
crjflyer35
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Thread starter):
Will it be able to compete with the new embraer jets.

Is it me, or does that thing look strikingly similar to the E-Jets??
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
motif1
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:44 am

I hope that Bulgarian carriers get some. First I'd love to see new planes in Bulgarian colors (or white  Smile ) and second I like Russian airplanes and have a great respect for them.

On the topic - I don't think that western legacies would buy russian planes but there will be markets for them.


Regards,

Motif1
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N328KF
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 18):
Is it me, or does that thing look strikingly similar to the E-Jets??

I would say that it looks more like the front end of a 787, which isn't surprising, if you consider who is the project manager for the RRJ.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
FaroeFlyer
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 15):
Most passengers do know what they're flying on



Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 15):
Additionally, what is the likelihood that the passengers will actually know that they're flying on an RRJ

Well which is it?

[Edited 2005-11-09 00:10:57]
Cast your dancing spell my way...
 
N276AASTT
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:53 am

To me, it's all about the performance of the aircraft (fuel and flight), CASM's, low down time, high dispatch rate, etc. If the a/c can deliver what the company says or exceed their expectations, then I say it has a chance to succeed. If I were an airline CEO, I'd be looking at that. Will the a/c keep me in the "Black" or bring me into the "Red."
Dejale Caer tu el Peso! YOMO
 
DarthRandall
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:30 am

If KLM were to pick them up, it would be a huge coup. It would expose them to not just executives from Air France, but also to those companys that are in the same alliance. It's a small step toward the greater goal of getting more international recognition. Who knows? Five years down the road Northwest may be looking for some newer regionals. Then, while they're discussing which company to pursue--Embraer or Bombardier--one of the executives who has recently been to Europe chimes in about how pleased the folks at KLM seem to be with their RRJs. I know, pie-in-the-sky, but wouldn't it be neat?
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 17):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 16):
It's because of public perception about the equipment.

You are clueless. It has nothing to do with public perception, whatever that is.

Hmmmm. Let's see. I have earned my living in this industry (in various management and non-management capacities) since before you were born. I have an advanced degree in economics. I have read internal reports regarding customer perception involving Eastern Bloc carriers (specifically Aeroflot) when Delta was forging close ties with the carrier.

I have a clue.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
art
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 3):
I contend 95-97% of the world's population does not care what plane they are on, nor do they know.

 checkmark 

I agree. Many less well informed pax have only really heard of Boeing or perhaps have only really heard of Airbus. Many better informed pax are aware that in fact two companies produce all the world's civil aircraft, not just one.

Quoting Motif1 (Reply 19):
On the topic - I don't think that western legacies would buy russian planes but there will be markets for them.

There is also the Request For Prices element: if airlines start to include the RRJ and use the RRJ to bring pressure for lower prices from Embraer, Bombardier etc, its credibility should start to rise.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:27 am

Sorry to be a pain, but as I asked in Post #14, where is the market for these (undoubtedly) very fine aircraft?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
supa7E7
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 26):
Sorry to be a pain, but as I asked in Post #14, where is the market for these (undoubtedly) very fine aircraft?

Same as the market for Brazilian aircraft. It's very very large.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 3):

That said, what the Russian companies have to prove is that they can maintain a production line and have global availability for spare parts.

 checkmark  Huge! If an aircraft is sitting waiting for parts you have a customer fuming while swearing your product will *never* be purchased again. Embraer and Bombardier had to claw they way up through turboprops and other markets before their RJ's sold.

Quoting A300 (Reply 10):
The CIS aviation industry has an image problem that needs to be fixed with better support (as mentioned before by others).

There is an old quote "You have to buy the horse from the Russian twice." Western companies/investors/etc. have no patience for a contract that isn't honored. If the RRJ delivers... the old reputation will be forgotten quick.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
2) Dispatch reliability. Aeroflot is not very happy with the dispatch reliability of the IL-96, which is the most modern Russian airliner today. I think that before any major Western carrier will sign up for the RRJ, they will want to see it in service for several years first, to make sure that it's performing okay.

 checkmark 

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 26):
Sorry to be a pain, but as I asked in Post #14, where is the market for these (undoubtedly) very fine aircraft?

There is always going to be a long thin market. Maybe more in the business jet area, but there is a strong market for long thin.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 16):
Why does Aeroflot fly western jets to the west almost exclusively? It's because of public perception about the equipment.

Incorrect. While the public didn't like seeing rivets loose on *much* older USSR airframes (I do not know of one westerner who flew to moscow who didn't comment on the rivet jobs of the older airframes.), its the economics of western aircraft that makes them required on long haul routes. In my opinion, an airline executive would sell his mother for 5% better economics.

I find the RRJ very interesting. I really hope it delivers.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
whitehatter
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 16):
I think you're wrong. Why does Aeroflot fly western jets to the west almost exclusively? It's because of public perception about the equipment.

Not always, the availability of spares and support is a major factor. The average punter could not care less what he gets on as long as it flies.

The image problem of Russian equipment is solely down to lapses in MX and operational factors which caused many accidents. Quality of Russian products is generally excellent, but it's the lack of backup which damages them for export sales. Very few accidents can be traced to equipment flaws.

The Tu-204 family for instance is loved by its operators in Europe on freight work, and outperforms the 757F it works alongside. But no other significant buyers have come forward because of that lack of fast global support, and as you say the image problem.

That Paris Tu-144 crash still resonates today.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Lumberton
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 27):
Same as the market for Brazilian aircraft. It's very very large.

Sorry, Supa7E7, I can't buy that. On Sukhoi's web site, it lists the variants as RRJ 60/75/95 seaters, unless I am totally reading this wrong. The E-jet family extends to a higher capacity range (up to 110 seats), had a tremendous head start in the market, and they're already certified. Bombardier is contemplating the C-series, which will further erode the potential for western sales if launched. The North American market appears to be saturated in the 70 (or so) seat segment. Granted, the NA market isn't the end-all, be-all, but it is still the largest market in the world. Both Antonov and Tupelov are coming out with competitors.

I will concede that this aircraft has potential, but I seriously doubt the "very, very large" assessment of the market. It may find a niche.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
concentriq
Posts: 283
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 15):
I don't think that domestic operators are opposed to buying russian aircraft, I just think that they're not competitive with western planes in areas like fuel efficiency.

absolutely agree. regardless of what is being said about public perception, I was merely pointing out the fact that this project is a very big chance to show western (and domestic) operators that russians CAN make aircraft that is on par with western counterparts in terms of efficiency, reliability and servisability. I just REALLY hope that they will not blow it, as it may be the last chance they have. i think that RJ market will become saturated very soon, just as widebody market has, and time to act is NOW!!! They need to advertise and popularise this project like there is no tomorrow. Maybe government can step in with subsidies and tax breaks.
Mobilis In Mobili
 
supa7E7
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:36 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
Hmmmm. Let's see. I have earned my living in this industry (in various management and non-management capacities) since before you were born. I have an advanced degree in economics. I have read internal reports regarding customer perception involving Eastern Bloc carriers (specifically Aeroflot) when Delta was forging close ties with the carrier.

I have a clue.

Fair enough. Sorry for the name calling, dad. Note that many on this thread disagree with your point, Aeroflot story notwithstanding

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 30):
but I seriously doubt the "very, very large" assessment of the market. It may find a niche.

I said the market is large... it is. The 70-90 seat RJ market is red-hot all over the globe and will remain so for some years. Will the Russians capture a piece of that huge market, maybe yes, maybe no.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
art
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 32):
The 70-90 seat RJ market is red-hot all over the globe and will remain so for some years.

Is it? Will it? I thought I saw data in FI recently showing a fall off in this sector accompanied by an increase in demand for turboprops. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:43 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 33):
an increase in demand for turboprops. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know if you're wrong or not. But Northwest's just cancelled their contract with partner, Mesaba, for SAAB 340 service.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
crjflyer35
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 34):
I don't know if you're wrong or not. But Northwest's just cancelled their contract with partner, Mesaba, for SAAB 340 service.

Yeah, bud didn't that have to do more with Northwest's current fiscal situation more than the current market for Turbo-props or RJ's??
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:23 am

Antonov have been an RJ, the An-148
Initial model with seat between 70 and 80 pax and have a range of 1,080-1,600nm. seating is 3-aisle-2. It's got a high wing like the ARJ but only 2 engines.Looks like a mix between the ARJ and Dornier 328 jet.
(source is Airliner world)
thanks

The Sorcerer
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
DarthRandall
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:13 am

Personally, I think the time is right for an RJ boom. The new Embraers are outstanding planes with the range and economics to connect smaller cities like Kansas City and Fort Wayne directly with other comparably sized towns. If the new C-series jets and the RRJ can offer comprable results, it would keep the price of regionals relatively low and thus encourage smaller airlines to take a chance on them. Even in the saturated U.S. domestic market there is room for growth on that end of the scale. In short I believe that there is a larger market for them than we may think.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:07 am

Hows the development going?

The article says first flight in 2006 and EIS 2007, but I haven't really heard anything about progress.

Any updates?

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hjulicher
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:29 am

Under my understanding, I think the Russian government is subsidizing many of the costs for producing this aircraft, and with all the support the RRJ is getting from Western firms, why wouldn't this aircraft be marketable to the west? I know in the beginning CIS airlines will order the aircraft, but as results MAY show, western airlines might consider purchasing it.

By the way, are Soviet airlines and aeroflot still tarnished names in the west. It seems that aeroflot is working extremely hard for skyteam entrance in March of 2006. They already have codeshare agreements with AirFrance, Alitalia and Korean Air. It just seems logical that once they are admitted, Aeroflot will join on a new league of airlines.

If the RRJ can compete similarly with the E-jets and Bombardier, wouldn't costs be supposedly lower? Which of these three a/c manufactures produce aircarft with the longest range? Shouldn't this be addressed in point-to-point flying as it is becoming increasingly important, or at least connecting smaller cities with larger airports?

I understand that it would take guts by an airline (say NW) to purchase the RRJ, but if it proves to be a good choice, won't this significantly help the airline if fleet renewal and cost are concerns? Won't it also put NW as a forerunner at suporting this company, and perhaps open it to future incentives in future products? What would be the consequences if the RRJ failed and NW oredered it? How detrimental would it be to the airline. Would it be so much so worse that it would hurt NW than it's current situation with the DC-9's.

Last question: In what ways can the RRJ fail, or is it the support system for the RRJ that can cause it to fail? Could NW ask for a service hub at one of it's hubs? Wouldn't this improve creditability of the aircraft and support? How much could such a venture cost for the RRJ?


SORRY FOR ALL THE QUESTIONS: JUST EXTREMELY INTERESTED IN THE LOGISTICS. I'M A TRUE A-NETTER.

[Edited 2005-11-11 03:02:14]
LH 442
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:50 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
Under my understanding, I think the Russian government is subsidizing many of the costs for producing this aircraft, and with all the support the RRJ is getting from Western firms, why wouldn't this aircraft be marketable to the west?

You throw the word "subsidizing" in and you attract many question marks as well, the main one being "Why is the government giving subsidies?" If you don't have subsidies, it means you have a bunch of people that believe in your plane, not necessarily only technologically but also the market it is being designed for.

Of course they could be for reasons such as "People don't really like Russian aircraft, so they won't invest on one." It would be stupid for one to think that way, but it doesn't mean the project will run with low risks.


Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
f the RRJ can compete similarly with the E-jets and Bombardier, wouldn't costs be supposedly lower?

They would be similar, as per the first part of your statement

Not sure what you meant by the rest of your paragraph though (not quoted above).

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):

I understand that it would take balls by an airline (say NW) to purchase the RRJ, but if it proves to be a good choice, won't this significantly help the airline if fleet renewal and cost are concerns?

Of course. But the question is whether it will be.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
Won't it also put NW as a forerunner to this new market, and perhaps open it to future incentives in future products?

That will depend on their business model.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
What would be the consequences if the RRJ failed and NW ordered it? How detrimental would it be to the airline. Would it be so much so worse that it would hurt NW than it's current situation with the DC-9's.

Before or after delivery?

Either way it would be really bad for the manufacturer. As for the airline, don't think it would be less efficient than the DC9, unless it proves a major maintenance pain in the neck, which I doubt. Also, it's a big investment to renovate a fleet.

Cheers

PS: Your questions are good, ask all of them!

[Edited 2005-11-11 02:59:16]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
art
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:22 am

From the article:

"Boeing is responsible for marketing activities (including sales and leasing) and after sales support (including operational logistics support, maintenance and spares)."

Will it have 200 firm orders by Dec 31?  smile 

Seriously, with Boeing involvement of this kind, much of the credibility problem is fixed, isn't it?
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 5):
I bet you NOBODY knows where Embraers are from. Brazil?

Safety Cards... FINAL ASSEMBLY OF THIS AIRCRAFT COMPLETED IN BRAZIL
 Smile
Puhdiddle
 
DarthRandall
Posts: 294
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:24 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
Under my understanding, I think the Russian government is subsidizing many of the costs for producing this aircraft, and with all the support the RRJ is getting from Western firms, why wouldn't this aircraft be marketable to the west?

If marketing comes through (I guess Boeing is doing that if I understand right?), there's no reason that western carriers would not buy it, barring unforseen performance issues.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
If the RRJ can compete similarly with the E-jets and Bombardier, wouldn't costs be supposedly lower?

That will depend on a lot of factors. Being cheaper than the other RJs would most definitely earn a significant share of the market.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
I understand that it would take guts by an airline (say NW) to purchase the RRJ, but if it proves to be a good choice, won't this significantly help the airline if fleet renewal and cost are concerns?

Profoundly in NorthWest's case. If you ask me, NW and the RRJ look like a perfect match, but I wouldn't bet too much an order.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 39):
Last question: In what ways can the RRJ fail, or is it the support system for the RRJ that can cause it to fail?

I guess Boeing will be handling the spare parts and maintainance, so that will probably take care of that issue. The only real concern then would be performance. Embraer and Bombardier (if the C-series lives up to hype) are coming out with some serious competition, so the bar is set pretty high.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:17 pm

Why is there the RRJ AND the Antonov 148. Aren't they in the same market.

Also, what ever happened to the Tupolev 334? The 100 seater from 10 years ago, to replace all those old Tupolev 134s?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
stall
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:52 pm

Most passengers won't care about what type/manufacturer. As long as the plane 'look safe' they will fly on it.

The biggest hurdle for the Russian aviation industry is customer support around the world. Airlines don't want to ground airplanes because maintenance can't be done due to lack of spare parts (for example).

If the product is good and cheap, airlines will be interested in it but support has to come in the package
Flying is fun
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Stall (Reply 45):
The biggest hurdle for the Russian aviation industry is customer support around the world. Airlines don't want to ground airplanes because maintenance can't be done due to lack of spare parts (for example).

IMO, you hit on the crux of the problem for Russian manufacturers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with their airframes, it's the maintenance-intensive powerplants and the logistics train to support them. Where the RRJ will overcome this is the joint venture with SNECMA, Powerjet. Check out their website:
http://www.powerjet.aero/

I believe this plane will set a new standard for the Russian aviation industry, not that the ones before were not up to par--far from it. This is one they will clearly be able to market to the west. I still have my doubts about the size of the customer base though....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
HiFi
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RE: Russian Regional Jet

Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 42):
Safety Cards... FINAL ASSEMBLY OF THIS AIRCRAFT COMPLETED IN BRAZIL

Just a minor correction... Design and final assembly in Brazil.  Wink
no commercial potential