cylw
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AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:12 am

From AC's Daily:

Looking to lose weight and save money polished look tested on B767.

Air Canada is considering taking a new polished look to its B767s to further reduce weight from its fleet and offset record fuel prices. The Toronto Paint Shop is currently conducting tests by stripping primer and paint from FIN 613s fuselage, which will then be polished and buffed to give it's aluminum coating a shiny finish the aircraft will keep its Air Canada logo and the new tail design. The removal of primer and paint reduces the aircraft's weight by approximately 360 pounds, which translates into fuel savings of more than $24,000 per year for each aircraft. "Based on our evaluation of FIN 613 over the next few weeks, we'll determine if we'll proceed with other B767s," said Jon Turner, Vice-President, Air Canada Maintenance. Watch for more details in the December issue of Horizons.
 
MSYYZ
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:16 am

Will it look like AA Aircraft ???
That would be ugly .
A346,A343,A342,A332,A333,A310,A300,AB6,A319,A320,A321,B741,B744,B777,B767,B732,B735,B727,B707,B757,MD80,F-70,E-170,B738
 
commavia
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:19 am

Looks like AA was ahead of the curve on this one!  Smile
 
roseflyer
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
Looks like AA was ahead of the curve on this one!

Yes and no. A number of airlines have debated whether or not a polished aluminum surface is better or worse than a painted surface. AA made a decision a long time ago and stuck with it.

To go back to the original post, this might work out. It used to be a hot topic whether or not paint was good. Paint reduces corrosion and helps protect the surface. This saves money. However it weighs more which costs more money. Some airlines go with paint and some go polished aluminum. USair made a big switch when it went from polished aluminum to paint when it rebranded into US Airways. However with the higher fuel prices, the scale might be tipped towards polished aluminum as being cheaper. We will see. However it would be hideous if AC only had polished aluminum on the 767s and maintained toothpaste blue on the rest of the fleet.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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scbriml
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:27 am

Hmm, so how will they polish their 787s?  scratchchin 
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DfwRevolution
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
However it would be hideous if AC only had polished aluminum on the 767s and maintained toothpaste blue on the rest of the fleet.

I agree, it seems like AC might be heading toward a Delta-like plethora of color schemes flying...

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
Hmm, so how will they polish their 787s?

They'll have to use some sort of paint unless they want polished charcole  Wink
 
md80fanatic
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:50 am

So it takes $66.6 dollars of fuel to cart around one pound (about 16 fl oz.) of paint and primer in a year? That sounds a little absurd actually.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 6):

The numbers may or may not be correct, but would it sound less absurd if you scaled it up to: $10,656 to carry a 160lb person around all year? That sounds less absurd to me.
 
art
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:59 am

Am I right in thinking that al can be anodised to give it a surface colour? Would this be practical (OK not for existing 767's but for new aircraft) instead of painting?
 
md80fanatic
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:09 am

Good point StuckInCA.

And that's a great idea Art....would look nice as well.  Smile
 
MSYYZ
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:12 am

If Airlines continue to try to save money by removing paint scheme , we may end up flying on an Aircraft with this colour scheme :

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Photo © French Frogs AirSlides

A346,A343,A342,A332,A333,A310,A300,AB6,A319,A320,A321,B741,B744,B777,B767,B732,B735,B727,B707,B757,MD80,F-70,E-170,B738
 
StuckInCA
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting Art (Reply 8):
can be anodised to give it a surface colour?

Yes it can. It's tough to get consistent color however. Also, I only know of this being done by submerging parts in a tank. Unless there's a process I'm unaware of, you couldn't just anodize the outside. Anodizing can also be clear(ish) or gray or black hard (but that would add weight). I'm sure someone here knows more than I do, but I do specify some anodizing on parts I design.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:17 am

Anodising would cost a fortune. My question is, don't you have to coat the polished aluminum with something. My experience with aluminum is the it turns black if not coated.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
jaysit
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:27 am

They plan on saving $ 24,000 per aircraft per year.

If they have about 40-50 767s, that would be a maximum savings of about $ 1.2 million. Which is basically peanuts.

Coming to think of it, they're charging for peanuts too. And pillows and blankets now.

How desperate will they get?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:30 am

All aluminum that is exposed to air is immediately coated with aluminum oxide....it is automatic process of oxidation....this is what gives aluminum is metallic shine.

I thought that aluminum, in it unoxidized state, is blackish in color. I could be having a senior moment though.  Wink
 
sebring
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 13):
They plan on saving $ 24,000 per aircraft per year.

If they have about 40-50 767s, that would be a maximum savings of about $ 1.2 million. Which is basically peanuts.

Coming to think of it, they're charging for peanuts too. And pillows and blankets now.

How desperate will they get?

A million here, a million there, and you soon have saved $20 million, or $30 million, and that's how a profitable airline thinks these days. There are a thousand ways to economize in a large organization, and many of them are often rejected as "peanuts", too small to bother with. And that's how inefficiencies and high costs become institutionalized.

Desperate? I'd say smart.
 
MarshalN
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 13):
If they have about 40-50 767s, that would be a maximum savings of about $ 1.2 million. Which is basically peanuts.



Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
A million here, a million there, and you soon have saved $20 million, or $30 million, and that's how a profitable airline thinks these days. There are a thousand ways to economize in a large organization, and many of them are often rejected as "peanuts", too small to bother with. And that's how inefficiencies and high costs become institutionalized.

Desperate? I'd say smart.

But how much will it cost to strip the paint off and the re-polish them? I hardly doubt it'll cost anything less than $24,000 a pop for the new paint (or non paint) job done.
 
yegbey01
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:58 am

HOw much does it cost Air Canada to research the information and do all the testing. If I have to guess.....about a million dollars in salaries and other resources.....
 
galapagapop
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:49 am

Only 360 pounds??? Not sure creating a subfleet of A/C with a different image for your company is worth $24,000 a year per A/C? Not at all sure a AC 767 would look good either.
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:57 am

Paint is not the problem.

Southwest still paints it's planes. And they make money.

American does not paint (most) of it's planes.

Enough said.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
luv2fly
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:07 pm

Maybe they will go back to a weight maximum for the FA's! Think about some of those senior guys and gals flying the skies and the weight they have packed on over the years.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
A332
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:17 pm

Sounds awful to me... and you'd think AC would want to continue on with that "wonderful" new image they've unveiled... kind of silly of AC to want to pursue some hideous aircraft livery to save a couple bucks here and there.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
474218
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 14):
All aluminum that is exposed to air is immediately coated with aluminum oxide....it is automatic process of oxidation....this is what gives aluminum is metallic shine.

I thought that aluminum, in it unoxidized state, is blackish in color. I could be having a senior moment though.

Most aircraft use Alclad aluminum for there skins. Alcad is a thin coat of pure aluminum applied to the aluminum sheets at the mill. The Alclad totals about 10% of the total thickness of the aluminum. Pure aluminum has no strength (like aluminum foil) but will not corrode. When the paint is stripped the surface is buffed with and very fine polish compound and treated with clear alodine to add extra protection. There is no additional coating added as that would defeat the purpose of stripping. Alclad is a trandmark of Alcoa.
 
jaysit
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:05 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
There are a thousand ways to economize in a large organization, and many of them are often rejected as "peanuts", too small to bother with. And that's how inefficiencies and high costs become institutionalized.

Sure.
But when it comes at the cost of diluting your brand and image, then its hardly worth it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
a380
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:32 pm

This will make Westjet look beautiful and less 'low-cost', just my opinion...
 
ricardofg
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:21 pm

Would AC make up there mind already??? Im finally starting to get used to the tube of toothpaste in the sky, and it looks great on the Embraers!!! I think they toned the blue down, but AA styles will really make me puke!  ill 
 
AirOrange
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:45 pm

Agree with StuckinMAF and aircraft with a lot of composite materials will look awfull without paint.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:05 pm

Change the whole look of the plane for 360 pounds of weight reduction on an aircraft which can take-off weighing 350,000 pounds? You can save the same amount by reducing the non-revs by 1 or 2, by reducing fuel load by an almost unnoticable 0.3%, etc. It seems silly to screw up the branding of Air Canada for $24,000 a year per plane when there are so many other ways to save the same amount without screwing up your brand image. I hope this isn't a replacement for the 767 winglet idea.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:10 pm

I wonder about this. If kings of cost cutting Ryanair, who would happily do anything to save money, still paint their aircraft, are the real savings that great?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
bmacleod
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:41 pm

Won't be the first time they did this.....


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airxliban
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 23):
But when it comes at the cost of diluting your brand and image, then its hardly worth it.

But think of the millions of dollars of revenue possible from carting around a whopping 360 additional pounds of cargo revenue!
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
ACdreamliner
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 13):
How desperate will they get?

desperate is not a word i'd choose. they are a low cost carrier in north america now. offering comparable or better fares than even WestJet! Air Canada is only a legacy on flights over 5.5hours...
Where are you going?
 
md80fanatic
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:57 pm

Since we are on a micro-savings scale here....there may be something else to consider...the added drag when not using paint.

No matter how polished (or even electrostatically coated), the surface is still bare metal of some type. Microscopically the surface is quite rough...and it is here where friction begins.

I'm inclined to think that a liquid, first smeared into the microscopic "pits" and allowed to dry would present a more smooth surface for the air to hug against.
 
trayfam
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:06 am

I don't know that it makes much sense. As someone said before, after you pull the 67s out of service, pay for them to be stripped, buffed, and resealed, you've gone way beyond 24k. Additionally, a second livery scheme would send mixed messages from a branding perspective.

To AAs credit, they have stuck with the bare metal livery, almost to the point of ownership I'd say. That doesn't mean, however, that their livery is as good as it could be, and it also doesn't address the various aircraft whose parts can not be stripped and buffed (tails, etc). AA typically paints them grey, which is just lifeless compared to the bare metal.
 
sebring
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:13 am

Two things are not being considered here.

1) Why a 767-200 for this trial? Because the plane is nearing the end of its service life, and if the experiment is deemed a failure, it will not be repainted, but parked in the desert.

2) Why do this just to save 24K a year per plane? Did any of you consider that if the experiment generates that amount of savings, and the whole fleet were to be stripped accordingly - AC has a lot of new planes on order that could come that way, avoiding the cost of stripping them - that it would save money on repainting planes. AC has over 300 aircraft. If a plane is painted every three or four years, that is a minimum of 5 paint jobs during its service life. And each paint job begins with stripping off the old paint anyway. Let's say, to be ultra-conservative, that AC is doing 50 paint jobs a year. What's the cost of that? A lot more than $1.2 million a year.
 
irelayer
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:27 am

Whenever something like "we want to save fuel by not painting our aircraft" or "no more free pillows" or "no more free peanuts" comes around, I always have this strange feeling that it is basically a psyhological assurance that these airlines get in "saving money" and "belt tightening" when the real savings is next to nothing and they probably waste more money hiring experts to think up these "ideas" and implementing these schemes than they will ever save in the long run. They should start looking at where the real costs of doing business are that are not fuel related (b/c nothing can be done about the cost of fuel in the short run, you need it, and you pay what it costs) and where cuts can be made instead of focusing on saving a penny on each gallon of gas or not buying $1 pillows. Instead of not painting aircraft, maybe have your executives take paycuts? Surely if all the VP's took a $10,000 pay cut you could save that much in a year. See if you have any wasted effort and maybe try to cut that? Perhaps cut the advertising budget a bit, or abandon some gates somewhere? I'm sure there are tons of things that airlines can do to offset the high cost of fuel that don't involve miserly cost-cutting that won't budge the bottom line even a centimeter...

-IR
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:34 am

Can anyone provide a modified airline picture of the paint scheme?
 
ord
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
Hmm, so how will they polish their 787s?

Air Canada's 787s will have to be painted, there is no way around it. Even if an airline like AA orders the 787, their planes will need to be painted.
 
ord
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:43 am

Boeing actually found no difference in cost between paint and polish:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...zine/aero_05/textonly/fo01txt.html
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:45 am

Hold on a tick... does this mean that if it is believed to be feasible, we will see the end of the tooth paste livery?
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 17):
HOw much does it cost Air Canada to research the information and do all the testing. If I have to guess.....about a million dollars in salaries and other resources.....

=  checkmark 

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 29):
Won't be the first time they did this.....

= Is it me ... or does the plane look a little sick?

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
motif1
Posts: 273
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting ORD (Reply 38):
Boeing actually found no difference in cost between paint and polish:

They actually did:

Summary
Though the weight of paint adds to fuel consumption, the fuel-cost savings offered by polished surfaces is outweighed by the cost of maintaining the polished surfaces. (edited to correct a typo  Smile)

I think that it is a ridiculous idea. Why not charge pax 50 cents more and make up for the $24K difference? Looks to me that polished surfaces are costlier.

Motif1
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
visityyj
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 29):
Won't be the first time they did this.....

That plane was a 1-year lease from Eastern. AC just overpainted the cheatline and tail leaving the EA metal elsewhere.
 
ACdreamliner
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 39):
Hold on a tick... does this mean that if it is believed to be feasible, we will see the end of the tooth paste livery?

god i hope not!?!?!? its the 2nd best livery in the skies at the moment, only surpassed by the boeing 'dreamliner' livery...
Where are you going?
 
DIA
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:43 am

Why only 767s? Why not try it on several a/c?

If this trial livery is successful on the 767, will they trial it on several other a/c types, or will AC just go ahead and eventually have their whole fleet this way? Minus the 787s.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:50 pm

I love this idea. The AC scheme is sickening. Anything that gets rid of it, even on some of their planes, is an improvement. Unfortunately, the trend is to go away from aluminum, so this idea is not going to last. No Airbus plane uses it, and Boeing is switching from aluminum, too with their new 787.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
N754PR
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:10 am

CX are doing the same with the freighters.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 46):
No Airbus plane uses it

Airbuses are made of aluminum alloys, just like Boeings. They just put that green coating on it. It might be a different type, but it's still Al.
 
ha763
Posts: 3168
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:36 pm

RE: AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $

Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 45):
Why only 767s? Why not try it on several a/c?



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 48):
Airbuses are made of aluminum alloys, just like Boeings. They just put that green coating on it. It might be a different type, but it's still Al.

The 767 is the only aircraft in AC's fleet that can go bare aluminum because of Alclad. The A320, 330, and 340 do not use Alclad skins and need to be painted unless you want a livery with different shades of dull yellows, browns, and greens that are never the same between aircraft.

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