sq212
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:14 pm

777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:36 am

Just heard it CNN news.

Record flight will be from HKG to LHR.

MISSION BRIEFING
Flight plan: Take off from Hong Kong International Airport; travel over north Pacific Ocean; fly over North America; and then cross over the mid/north Atlantic Ocean en route to land at London (Heathrow). The exact flight path will be determined by the flight crew prior to the flight.

Airplane designation: BOE002

Anticipated flight time: Approximately 23-24 hours

Planned takeoff weight: Approximately 695,000 pounds (315,252 kg)

Fuel: About 350,000 pounds (158,760 kg)

Engines: General Electric GE90-110B1L

Planned engine thrust level: 110,000 pounds

Anticipated altitude: Beginning of flight: 29,000 feet (8839 meters) Final altitude: 41,000 feet (12,496 meters)

Anticipated test air speed: Approximately 475 knots (about 546 mph or 879 kph)

Additional passengers: Total passenger and crew count is 35, including additional crew, media, Boeing executives, airline representatives and program partners.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/boeing/longestflight/

Boeing has created a Web site to let the general public monitor the mission, which will begin at 6:30 a.m. Wednesday (PST):
www.777.newairplane.com

Cheers

[Edited 2005-11-09 02:41:53]
 
MarshalN
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:59 am

Ugh, sitting in a plane for 24 hours..... the horrors.
 
kaitak744
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:15 am

Hong Kong? Thats rather interesting. I thought they would do it from Singapore or Sydney (through Asia) instead.
 
AC787
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:20 am

Will this record flight prove anything to airlines such as Qantas who are skeptical of its range when it comes to the ULLH routes such as SYD-LHR?
 
QANTAS077
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:25 am

it's old news...this was made mention of back in july or so, the route takes the flight from HKG directly over Seattle and onwards to London, though i believe it's Gatwick and not Heathrow.
 
NAV20
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:25 am

Thanks for spotting this, Sq212. Something genuinely innovative for once - maybe even historic.

Interesting that the fuel load quoted (350,000 pounds) looks pretty close to the 772LR's normal capacity with the standard arrangement of three long-range tanks (53,440 USG.). A 747ER or an A380 would need a lot more fuel than that just to get from Hong Kong to LAX!



[Edited 2005-11-09 03:41:19]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
sq212
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 2):
Hong Kong? Thats rather interesting. I thought they would do it from Singapore or Sydney (through Asia) instead.

The attached link should give further details on site selection:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/247543_record09.html

Cheers
 
incitatus
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:38 am

That got me thinking about a real pair of airports that could be as far as possible to get the 777 from antipode to antipode instead of a "world-detour" route.

How about
LIM BKK 12239 mi
PVG ROS 12245 mi
SIN UIO 12255 mi
KUL GYE 12330 mi
MAD WLG 12335 mi
TPE ASU 12367 mi
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adriaticus
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 4):
i believe it's Gatwick and not Heathrow

It's LHR.

From Boeing's news release:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051108h.html

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QANTAS077
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 8):
It's LHR.

From Boeing's news release:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/....html

makes no mention of London Heathrow at all...
 
adriaticus
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 9):
makes no mention of London Heathrow at all...

At the end of the third paragraph: << Guinness World Records representatives will be monitoring the flight's progress and meeting it upon landing at Heathrow to present it with the Guinness World Record certificate. >>

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dalecary
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:01 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 9):
makes no mention of London Heathrow at all...

Read the above quoted Seattle Times article. Talks about a slot at Heathrow at about 10.30am for the waiting media. Interestingly, the Boeing press release also mentions that SQ pilots as well as PIA pilots will be on board.
I had no idea that HKG-LHR was a done deal for this flight. Had been mentioned, but so had SIN,KUL,SYD and other Asia-Pacific cities.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:01 pm

Quote:
In addition to the crew, passengers onboard the flight include Boeing executives, journalists from media organizations around the world, pilots from Pakistan International Airlines and Singapore Airlines, and representatives from General Electric Aircraft Engines, the maker of the efficient and reliable GE90-115B engines that power the 777-200LR and 777-300ER (Extended Range).

I wonder if Singapore Airlines is going to write a check for a future order on the plane, or after landing, HA!  Smile
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zvezda
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting AC787 (Reply 3):
Will this record flight prove anything to airlines such as Qantas who are skeptical of its range when it comes to the ULLH routes such as SYD-LHR?

I also think Boeing chose the route poorly. My suggestion here many months ago was LHR-SYD westbound i.e. the long way around against the wind. If it can do that, it can do anything (with a light payload).
 
scotron11
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:08 pm

Interesting to note that the pilots that will be on board are not only from PIA, but from SIA as well, and SIA haven't ordered the model, yet.

Could be they will?
 
MidnightMike
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
I also think Boeing chose the route poorly. My suggestion here many months ago was LHR-SYD westbound i.e. the long way around against the wind. If it can do that, it can do anything (with a light payload).

Flying that route, does not set the Long Distance Record, which is based on mileage, now, flying the LHR-SYD is difficult due to the winds, but, not based on mileage......
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adriaticus
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:13 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
I also think Boeing chose the route poorly. My suggestion here many months ago was LHR-SYD westbound i.e. the long way around against the wind. If it can do that, it can do anything

Ditto. Checking performance on a AKL-LHR-AKL test roundtrip would have been a nice-to-see instead... At just 11404 nm.

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Iloveboeing
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:21 pm

I'm in Hong Kong right now! I'm going to see if I can go to the airport tonight (I guess it would be a 10:30 PM departure) and see the 772LR off!

Good luck to everyone!
 
NAV20
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:23 pm

Zvezda, have to disagree - I think Boeing made the right choice of route.

The object of this flight is to beat the existing distance record (currently held by the 777ER, I think) for publicity purposes. SYD/LHR might be highly significant in technical terms but only the Australian press would really be interested. New records attract worldwide coverage.

In addition, PIA and SQ are clearly interested in a range of achievable routes from Asia to the USA and Europe; possibly going on home eastbound (i.e. one-stop right round the world). They, and other airlines in Asia, taken together, have to be much bigger sales prospects than Qantas alone could ever be.

In any case, once the aeroplane's overall performance is validated, it will be relatively easy, from the data assembled, to calculate its performance on other routes and in different wind conditions. I'm confident that Boeing will achieve SYD/LHR anyway - with a passenger load sufficient to make the service profitable on a Business and/or Premium Economy basis.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
astuteman
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:29 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Thread starter):
Anticipated test air speed: Approximately 475 knots (about 546 mph or 879 kph)

Not wishing to split hairs on a great occasion, Sq212, but shouldn't that be ground speed?
475kts IAS sounds AWFULLY fast to me, particularly for a flight which will by definition be planned to be frugal in the extreme (i.e. SLOW).
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 339
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:30 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Thread starter):
Engines: General Electric GE90-110B1L

I've been wondering.....why did Boeing decide to use engines with less thrust on the 772LR than the 773ER? Why didn't Boeing put the GE90-115B on the 772LR? Thanks.
 
zvezda
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:37 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 14):
Interesting to note that the pilots that will be on board are not only from PIA, but from SIA as well, and SIA haven't ordered the model, yet.

Could be they will?

Could be they will. SQ are due to make a decision next month.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 15):
Flying that route, does not set the Long Distance Record, which is based on mileage

I stand corrected.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 20):
I've been wondering.....why did Boeing decide to use engines with less thrust on the 772LR than the 773ER? Why didn't Boeing put the GE90-115B on the 772LR? Thanks.

Fuel consumption at cruise?
 
NAV20
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:41 pm

Steady, Astuteman - Sq212 said 'airspeed', not 'Indicated Air Speed'  

For the record, a 475-knot true airspeed at say 35,000 feet would show 'on the clock' at about 300 KIAS - though of course they'd be using Mach. speed anyway at that height.

[Edited 2005-11-09 04:44:10]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
OldAeroGuy
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Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:43 pm

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 20):
I've been wondering.....why did Boeing decide to use engines with less thrust on the 772LR than the 773ER? Why didn't Boeing put the GE90-115B on the 772LR? Thanks

No need for the -115B in most instances. The higher takeoff rotation angle of the -200LR (due to shorter body length) allows it to have the same takeoff field length as the -300ER with less thrust.

Less thrust means lower engine initial costs and lower maintenance costs.

There are some applications where the -115B would benefit the -200LR. Boeing acquired -115B certification data during the -200LR flight test program. If a customer can use the higher rating, Boeing will sell it to them.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:02 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):

Fuel consumption at cruise?

That makes sense. Do you think that the GE90-110B1 will be awarded the same ETOPS rating (330 minutes) like the GE90-11B?
 
zvezda
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 24):
Do you think that the GE90-110B1 will be awarded the same ETOPS rating (330 minutes) like the GE90-11B?

What is a GE90-11B, when was it awarded ETOPS330 and by which certifying bureaucracy?
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:02 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 23):
same takeoff field length as the -300ER with less thrust.

What would be the takeoff field length of the 772LR?
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:02 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
What is a GE90-11B, when was it awarded ETOPS330 and by which certifying bureaucracy?

Sorry, I meant the GE90-115B....for the 777-300ER....
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
SYD/LHR might be highly significant in technical terms but only the Australian press would really be interested.

And it would not be significant without full proposed revenue payload.

It's been shown that various models could do LHR-SYD on delivery flights, including the 747 and the A330.

But nobody has done a route this long before, so that's the whole reason they are doing it.

Not to worry people. Boeing will ALSO do the SYD-LHR-SYD proving flight should they determine that it is practical to promise it to BA and QF. And you might see that in December...

Who knows.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
What is a GE90-11B, when was it awarded ETOPS330 and by which certifying bureaucracy?

I think he forgot the 5 in a typo, and is confused with proving ETOPS330 ability and being awarded it.

ETOPS207 is still the tops, though I think ETOPS240 is not out of the realm of reality (330 is a pipe dream) should the IS performance of the 773ER and 772LR prove it safe over time.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 339
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):

ETOPS207 is still the tops, though I think ETOPS240 is not out of the realm of reality (330 is a pipe dream) should the IS performance of the 773ER and 772LR prove it safe over time.

So they only gave the 773ER ETOPS of 207, even though it demonstrated 330 capability? Why would they do that?
 
astuteman
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
Steady, Astuteman - Sq212 said 'airspeed', not 'Indicated Air Speed'

For the record, a 475-knot true airspeed at say 35,000 feet would show 'on the clock' at about 300 KIAS - though of course they'd be using Mach. speed anyway at that height.

Fair comment, NAV. I inferred IAS from the post.
A
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting AC787 (Reply 3):
Will this record flight prove anything to airlines such as Qantas who are skeptical of its range when it comes to the ULLH routes such as SYD-LHR?

What basis do you have for this comment? It can be done , that is not an issue.
What is not known , at least amongst A.netters , is the consistent payload that QF want off this route.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 29):
So they only gave the 773ER ETOPS of 207, even though it demonstrated 330 capability? Why would they do that?

Because ETOPS330 is only a theoretical concept.

Boeing used the same criteria you would need to prove ETOPS207 and applied it to 330 to demonstrate to wary agencies that it is safe, but as of yet, they have not been able to sell this idea yet.

But give the 773ER more time in service, and you might see a compromise of 240, which would still greatly benefit the twins.

And with Airbus now firmly on the long range twin bandwagon with the A350, look for added pressure for at least ETOPS240 to be offered, if not 270.

And also note that ETOPS will be redefined and apply to quads and tris (in a different way) in the near future. The thinking is that engine emergencies are not the only kind of emergency, so you need to have diversion airports available in reasonable distances for things like medical emergencies, extinguished fires, pressurization problems, etc.

The term "twin" will be removed from the ETOPS acronym. I forget what the T will stand for when they change it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AC787
Posts: 330
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:29 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 31):
What basis do you have for this comment?

I guess i was vague in the question, I kind of just assumed people would take it that I meant with a significant payload. Its kind of assumed that most modern jetliners can cover a huge amount of distance if theres drastically less weight.
 
gigneil
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:30 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
A 747ER or an A380 would need a lot more fuel than that just to get from Hong Kong to LAX!

Full of people, yes.

N
 
roseflyer
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:34 pm

This isn't that surprising. Boeing did the same kind of thing with the 772ER. They flew SEA-KUL the long way around (over Atlantic/Europe/Asia) and then KUL-SEA to set a round the world record for shortest flight by a passenger jet. KUL was a target as they were going after Malaysia as well as other airlines in the region. I guess they are trying to do that on a grander scale. But all it shows is that if you empty the plane and carry almost nothing in it, it can fly very far. It isn't like airlines ran to steve fossett to buy the Voyager since it could get around the world nonstop. This is pure publicity for the media and general public. Boeing is certainly pushing this plane hard in order to get some sales.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
vatveng
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Thread starter):
Boeing has created a Web site to let the general public monitor the mission, which will begin at 6:30 a.m. Wednesday (PST):
www.777.newairplane.com

Looks like the web folks at boeing jumped the gun a bit... it's talking about the record flight in the past tense, and says it "landed at London Heathrow Airport November 10th 2005".

uh, it's only November 9th in London as I type this. And still November 8th in Seattle.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:48 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 35):
This is pure publicity for the media and general public.

Aviation advances and history is full of "pure publicity" stunts like this.

It's one of the great things about aviation.

And anytime you set a new air record, it is a BIG deal to us fans of aviation.

Voyager owns the experimental record. Other jets own the military records.

The 772LR will own the airliner record in general, and the heavy airliner record specifically, and the 772ER sister will still own the subclass record it has now, which shows how advanced the 777 is in aviation history.

and what does it prove? Well, that no other plane can do what the 772LR can do! That's what it proves. And that is something tangible. Whether it translates to sales is another question.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:02 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 37):
Whether it translates to sales is another question.

I think the 772LR will be a success in sales. Its extremely long range makes it very attractive to airlines in Asia, Australia, and New Zealand.

I'm wondering why Air New Zealand opted for the 772ER instead of the 772LR.....with a few modifications, it may be possible to make it from AKL-LHR....
 
NAV20
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:54 pm

No problem, Astuteman. Always fascinates me that, as far as I know, the pitot tube (invented by Henri Pitot in 1732) remains the only method of directly measuring airspeed.

I believe that even 'Mach. speed' is still computed by reference to the pitot head reading adjusted for altitude/air pressure?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
sonic67
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:43 pm

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 35):
But all it shows is that if you empty the plane and carry almost nothing in it, it can fly very far.

I agree it would seem to me more creditable if they went a shorter distance with a fully loaded with passengers. Only 35 people will be on board, including eight pilots; a couple Boeing executives; several Boeing 777 engineers; representatives from General Electric; and a dozen journalists from around the world.
 
NAV20
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:01 pm

Quoting Sonic67 (Reply 40):
I agree it would seem to me more creditable if they went a shorter distance with a fully loaded with passengers.

In marketing it's important to have more than one string to your bow. Sure, Boeing will be going hard on the 'supply side' - telling airlines how far the 772LR will go with what payload (which can already be computed from test data, plus the data from this flight - there's really no need, at this stage, to 'prove it' by actually flying every possible route).

But on the 'demand side', nothing beats a record-setting flight in terms of stirring up Joe Public. As soon as this hits the newspapers and TV, people all over the world will be asking travel agents and airlines, "Why do I have to stuff around for hours at (insert airport name here) when Boeing make an aeroplane that can do my regular trip nonstop?"
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
sq212
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):

Thanks for your reply. Events such as this is difficult to ignore. Although this is a niche aircraft, but confident that a few prospective operators like SQ, EK, and QF will certainly pick up a few to serve their high profile and point-to-point inclined customers.

Regards
 
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NZ107
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:22 pm

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 38):
I'm wondering why Air New Zealand opted for the 772ER instead of the 772LR.....with a few modifications, it may be possible to make it from AKL-LHR....

This was supposed to be a straight swap for the current fleet, not expansion. There will be another big purchase by NZ in the near future, hopefully before Christmas.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:02 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 43):

This was supposed to be a straight swap for the current fleet, not expansion. There will be another big purchase by NZ in the near future, hopefully before Christmas.

So, along with the 772LR, what else is NZ likely to purchase? Some 789s? How many, do you think?
 
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NZ107
Posts: 4946
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:48 pm

747ADV or 773ER are the 2 options. They have already ordered 2 more 787's and I'm unsure whether there are any more 787's that will be bought.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 26):
What would be the takeoff field length of the 772LR?

Between 10,000 ft and 11,000 ft at seal level for long range missions with the -110B engine.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
Fuel consumption at cruise?

No difference between the -110B and -115B. They are identical except for the thrust rating "plug".
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
keesje
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RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:04 pm

At the same moment the A380 goes on Asia tour. SQ and QF are making up their minds. What a coincidence. I think in reality Boeing Communications Department is more in charge here then the Flight department. I have the feeling this exact date wasn't scheduled months before, rather weeks / days..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:09 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 47):
At the same moment the A380 goes on Asia tour. SQ and QF are making up their minds. What a coincidence. I think in reality Boeing Communications Department is more in charge here then the Flight department. I have the feeling this exact date wasn't scheduled months before, rather weeks / days..

You're suggesting the last-minute reschedule by Airbus was to steal Boeing's thunder? I doubt it. I'm willing to believe Airbus that they really did have technical problems with the WhaleJet. Not everything is a conspiracy.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6007
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: 777LR Record Flight

Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:11 pm

The aircraft has just been towed down to HAECO. I would guess for show to people touring it, or because it's near the holding point for runway 07R!!

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