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1337Delta764
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A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:57 pm

I'm wondering, how do you like the idea of a tripledeck 747 successor/A380 competitor if the 747 Advanced fails. The aircraft would have two full decks and one partial deck, and would be made largely of composites.
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md80fanatic
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:05 am

I'd like to see a single deck-er that is three times wider that a 747, with smaller wings.  Wink

I'm not sure if "vertical" is the most efficient direction to expand an airplane.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:11 am

At that point, you might as well go blended-wing. Plenty of space for folks and their stuff and the fuel to carry them anywhere in the world non-stop.
 
klmcedric
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:13 am

Why? Have you got one?
 
A350
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 1):
I'm not sure if "vertical" is the most efficient direction to expand an airplane.

It's not about vertical or not. We know, one good shape is the round fuse cross section. However, if you increase diameter, you also get a higher fuse and more and more unusable room below the cargo deck and over the main deck. A wider fuse than that of the 747 just doesn't make sense on a single decker.

Therefore Airbus went for a double decker with the A380. Since the floors add some stability it was also possible to go for an oval cross section. Somebody who wants an even larger a/c than the WhaleJet can go for a round cross section and longer fuse before adding a third deck. A third deck would only be required in case of a truely giant airplane, and I'm absolutely sure such a plane won't come in the next years.

A350
 
md80fanatic
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:26 am

Blended wing was what I had in mind. Building higher requires progressively larger wings to support the load. Good Lord, the A380's are about as large as you can support with current materials.

Having a wide and flat fuselage could at least contribute by adding a little lift, without much additional drag.
 
zvezda
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting A350 (Reply 4):
It's not about vertical or not. We know, one good shape is the round fuse cross section. However, if you increase diameter, you also get a higher fuse and more and more unusable room below the cargo deck and over the main deck. A wider fuse than that of the 747 just doesn't make sense on a single decker.

That's not necessarily true. If one just wants passenger seating, then a circular cross section much larger than the JumboJet probably doesn't make a lot of sense, however, if sleeping bunks are desired, then the space can be used effeciently. There are also ways of making effecient use of more space in the cargo hold. Ceiling height can be increased from the standard 66 inches needed for LD3s to 84 or 96 inches to accommodate a wider variety of pallets. A wider cargo bay can be configured to hold two laterally oriented 125 inch pallets side-by-side or three LD3s abreast.
 
georgiaame
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:05 am

And to get practical for just a moment, Boeing is having a heck of a time trying to get the old model sold as minimally stretched version. I think there is a greater likelihood of Airbus adding a third level to their bird than Boeing doing it. And that isn't too likely, considering the rate at which the airlines are plucking up the current 380. My 2 cents
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:10 am

I don't think the demand for such a big plane is big enough.. and if it is, I dont think it is enough to cover the costs of a brand new airframe. Maybe a stretched A380 would be able to be profitable.
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:16 am

Aircraft aren't like disposal razors. Where you introduce the Shick Quattro just because your competitior has 3 blades a lube strip.

There isn't a single full fuselage length double decker in revenue service yet and the arm chair aeronautical engineers are already proposing triples. Good Grief! I'm reaching for my blankee.
learning never stops.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering, how do you like the idea of a tripledeck 747 successor/A380 competitor if the 747 Advanced fails. The aircraft would have two full decks and one partial deck, and would be made largely of composites.

This will happen as soon as the world reaches 12 bilion population and all airports are out of room to expand.  Yeah sure
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whitehatter
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:46 am

The only way to proceed after the A389 would be for radical new designs or revisiting the blended wing. There's only so much you can do with existing structures and formats before major problems will start cropping up.

A theatre body blended wing aircraft could easily accomodate over a thousand passengers, but that does not yet look like it will happen. Maybe when more innovative propulsion starts happening the concept can be revisited.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
jumpseatflyer
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:49 am

take an A380 and fill it with bunkbeds the size of the ones here in my dormroom, and you're PAX capacity will be through the roof  boxedin .
 
bushpilot
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:10 am

I am of the school of that that the current jumbos the 747 and A380 are the last of thier types. If you look back to 50-60 years ago when the jet age was really begining you had the likes of the Constellation, DC-7 etc where the thought was build a bigger more effiecient prop engine plane. For the record I think the A380 will make money, as for the gleaming success the 747 has been, not sure if it will live up to it. But I think before you see a triple decker or something even bigger than an A389 you will see a dramatic development in engines or other manufacturing materials to make several smaller (737-A320 type) aircraft more efficient and economical that the jumbo. I dont know what the future holds, but I doubt it is more obese multidecked aircraft. PS....I like the blended wing idea as well.
 
Lemurs
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:54 pm

Quoting A350 (Reply 4):
It's not about vertical or not. We know, one good shape is the round fuse cross section.

Round is good for structural weight and complexity reasons when working with aluminum. There is no reason for it to remain that way once fuselage design goes to all composites however. The cross-sections posted here have shown that Boeing already recognizes this. They are acomplishing their extra head-level space on the 787 by using an inverted ovoid (egg) shape, not a circle or double-bubble. There's no reason future large wide-body designs can't be optimized in the same fashion to keep them at one or two decks with more passenger floor space than the 747.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
zvezda
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:59 pm

The WhaleJet already has extreme proportions. For its fuselage height (331 inches), it is quite short and the fuselage is narrow (281 inches). If one scales that up to three decks using the same proportions, then seating on the middle deck would be 3-5-5-3 (unless four aisles were used) and 3-4-4-3 on the lower deck. Overall length would be well over 100 meters and total seating in a 3-class cabin would be over 2000.

In the unlikely event that an airliner larger than an A380-900 were ever needed, it would make far more sense to go with a circular fuselage of about 320 inches in diameter. That would probably be a spacious 2-4-4-2 on the main deck or 3-4-4-3 in a charter type seating with 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 on the upper deck.
 
ZAVRC
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:17 pm

We seem to be forgetting two things.

One, evacuating in the event of an emergency, a blended wing gives a very wide and flat passenger cabin. The result is that a large portion of passengers are a long way away from an emergency exit.

Two, Joe Passenger, the guy that drives the airline industry by paying airfares, wants to sit next to a window. Wide and flat doesn't give him that
 
klmcedric
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting ZAVRC (Reply 16):
Two, Joe Passenger, the guy that drives the airline industry by paying airfares, wants to sit next to a window. Wide and flat doesn't give him that

I think that on average more Joe Passengers want to sit on an aisle seat then
a windowseat!
 
art
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:48 pm

Don't want to hijack this thread but there was a thread about a Times newspaper blended wing article:

article:http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2417182
 
Alessandro
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:50 pm

I would like a triple-deck amphibian plane, Spruce goose size....
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md80fanatic
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:06 pm

With a blended wing though....there is a passenger escape advantage if you think about it. The central core of pax will be far from the emergency window exits, but why not also have exits on the ceiling so they can climb out on the top of the fuselage? It would be quite easy to implement a rope ladder that drops from the ceiling.

If the emergency-stricken plane were to land wheels-down the central pax could slide down specially made "permanent" escape chutes built into the cargo hold....emerging under the plane's belly.
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
It would be quite easy to implement a rope ladder that drops from the ceiling.

Or just a rope. Then they can double as the in-flight exercise gym.
 
glacote
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:37 pm

Whenever dimensions get doubled, mass and efforts grow 8 times and section (hence material resistance) only 4 times.

Hence you will never see giant ants. Nor triple deckers.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:31 am

Boeing 828-900ER. Delta will be the launch customer once they emerge from ch-11.

Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
ElGreco
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
Overall length would be well over 100 meters and total seating in a 3-class cabin would be over 2000.

Maximum dimensions are 80m by 80m for airports.

The 380-900 will be close to 900 passagers with 30" seat pitch, may be it's possible to add some passagers in the cargo area with beds as it is made for crew, but without windows (only for frequent flyers or with some drinks).
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zvezda
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting ElGreco (Reply 24):

Maximum dimensions are 80m by 80m for airports.

In theory, that's the current limit, however, few if any airports can handle an 80x80 airliner today. My point was that a triple-decker is not going to happen because it would be very, very, very large. One can build a double-decker with a circular fuselage much wider than the WhaleJet that at 80x80 would accommodate well over 1000 passengers -- probably 1200. There appears to be no market for an airliner that seats over 2000 passengers, it would have very poor efficiency, cost a fortune to develop, and it couldn't operate at any airports without very, very expensive refitting. There will not be a triple-decker in the next 20 years. Probably not in the next 50 years.
 
A342
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 23):
Boeing 828-900ER. Delta will be the launch customer once they emerge from ch-11.

Now that looks ugly! Did they use the 747SP as the base?

Quoting ElGreco (Reply 24):
The 380-900 will be close to 900 passagers with 30" seat pitch

More like 1000 seats. If you scale up the A388´s 555 3-class layout to its maximum 853 seats and do the same for the A389 using 656 3-class seats suggested by some sources, it will give you 1008 seats.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
iwok
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
If the emergency-stricken plane were to land wheels-down the central pax could slide down specially made "permanent" escape chutes built into the cargo hold....emerging under the plane's belly.

How about "break away" wings? In the event of a crash, explosive bolts could be activated to detach and push the fuel containing sections of the BWB away. Doors could be located in the interface section to allow for easy escape.

Jeez, now that I think of it, this sounds like an extremely tricky idea to implement.  Wink

-iwok
 
soups
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 23):
eing 828-900ER. Delta will be the launch customer once they emerge from ch-11.


that pic look absolutely VILE
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:30 am

Can someone post those pics of the blended wing concept aircraft on a taxiway?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 27):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
If the emergency-stricken plane were to land wheels-down the central pax could slide down specially made "permanent" escape chutes built into the cargo hold....emerging under the plane's belly.

How about "break away" wings? In the event of a crash, explosive bolts could be activated to detach and push the fuel containing sections of the BWB away. Doors could be located in the interface section to allow for easy escape.

Jeez, now that I think of it, this sounds like an extremely tricky idea to implement. Wink

I think we already have break-away wings....as the Ethiopian 767 crash demonstrated to us. Of course there have been a few 767s in history with much much stronger wings.  Wink

What if those explosive bolts were to malfunction in flight?
 
ourboeing
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RE: A Tripledeck 747 Successor/A380 Competitor?

Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 23):
Boeing 828-900ER. Delta will be the launch customer once they emerge from ch-11.

Now this is a cool flying cruise ship Smile

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