aseem
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Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:40 am

I know if it is too early to ask, but one wonders if AI will ever buy "new" B747 or A380? The point is that AI will need aircraft of that size and they cannot go forever with their old B744 or keep leasing those dumped by others.
Does AI have any "strategic" plans or just wants to take a breath and be happy with B773?
thanks
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Thunderbird1
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:42 am

It needs to buy the 747 Advanced.
 
CrazyHorse
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:55 am

India is a future market and their will be a growing demand for flights to many destination. So it is quite possible, that AI is buying A380 or B747A in the near future, when the company and the politician will see, that AI need´s bigger aircrafts on different routes.
 
FCKC
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:07 am

Read somewhere some weeks ago , India will need 20 A380 size aircraft.
So probably AI will buy some in the future (near or far future ?).
 
B742
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:08 am

I think AI is one of those airlines that could need a mixture of both the A380 and the 747-ADV/773ER!

I think some routes are capable of handling the A380, whereas some routes simply just need a 747-ADV/773ER!

I hope AI go for a mix of 747-ADV's and A380's!

Rob!  wave 
 
jaysit
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:37 am

They're in the process of acquiring 15 777-300ERs, 10 777LRs, and 28 787s.

It appears that AI are subscribing to Boeing's vision of the future which entails point to point traffic between both hubs AND secondary cities.

If so, the 773s with 350 pax will do the job quite well on trunk routes out of BOM and DEL, with the 772s and 787s doing nonstops from both Bom and Del as well as AI's secondary points within India like BLR, MAA, HYD etc.

It would be a pity to see the 747 leave the AI fleet, especially since its been the distinctive flagship of the fleet for close to 35 years now, but you can't stem the tide of progress and shifting market demands.
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N60659
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
and 28 787s

Very slight correction - it is 27 787s.  Wink

-N60659
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glacote
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:18 pm

AI might buy some recent A388 from EK when they buy A389 instead...
 
BN747
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:22 pm

I agree with Jaysit, the trend indicates major equipment upgrades. Ther's no way AI will sit and watch Jet, Kingfisher and PIA ramp up on the new stuff and not do anything about it. I believe when the 747ADV goes... AI will jump in line as well.


BN747
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mandargb
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:15 pm

AI does buy new aircraft from time to time historically. (Although they havent "bought" big birds from boeing of late.)
If you watch them and their buying decisions, the decisions are typically highly influnced by not just the item they are buying but also the other stuff they are going to get in bargain.
Like if the they go A: then do they get more access to CDG or some European hub.
Or if they go B: then do they get some more access to defence technology / F16/18s from US or even more access to US destinations etc.

So I think their buying decision also depends on all the other factors, since the aircraft and route mixing / scheduling can be done in a proper way to operate with A or B machines.

Another factor that now will come into picture is, will they make some more money domestically in MRO jobs, by utilizing their say B machine expertise with some local carrier. Sure Jet is going to need some MRO jobs on their Airbuses and so would Kingfisher in near future.

However they are "planning" to buy B's machine looks like from current trends.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:14 pm

Not sure about the A380.But def the B747Advance will be taken to with Interest.
Where as for the Interim period there Will be the B773ERs.
regds
MEL
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cricket
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:25 pm

I know for a fact from meeting with AI that the A380 is not on the horizon anytime yet. However, with AI and Airbus burying the hachet (Caused when Nigel Harwood lost it) and AI being the world's largest (correct me if I'm wrong) operators of the 'Tubby' (A313's) a future order for A380's can't be ruled out. But because they plan to keep the current fleet of 744's till 2010-2012, the order is going to be long way off.
Let them get the 777's and 787's first na!
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na
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:59 pm

AI will certainly need something bigger than 773ER. Their 744s are still young enough not to haste a decision for the top end of the fleet. A decision for the 747 Adv. though has the positive sideeffect they could just convert orders and/or upgrade from 773ER to 747 Advanced if future demand justifies it.
 
cricket
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:41 pm

Much of AI's future strategy will involve point-to-point services instead of "everything-from-Bombay" (save two 777's based in DEL) thing it has going now. DEL will become a full-fledged maint and engineering base for the 777 and 787. Plus there will be more services from HYD, BLR, MAA and CAL direct. AI is a total believer in Boeing's point-to-point philosophy (thats why the 787).
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na
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:05 pm

Point-to-point or not, some routes will require bigger things than monster-twins...
 
anandt
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 13):
AI is a total believer in Boeing's point-to-point philosophy (thats why the 787).

With the dumps that masquerade as airports in India, a hub strategy isnt going to work really. Plus point-to-point provides the best chance to wean away passengers from hub based carriers like EK and Qatar.

Although I think Mumbai T2 (gate area) has improved drastically after the renovations.
 
jaysit
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting NA (Reply 12):
AI will certainly need something bigger than 773ER.

I don't think so.
I'm sure they will configure the 773s them with large Y class cabins with a total capacity of about 350 pax, only about 50 short of their 744s.

Also, once point to point flights from destinations like Bangalore, Madras, Calcutta, Ahmedabad, etc are developed, you may not need anything larger than a 773 from Bom or Del. And with the US being the primary market for expansion, its much easier to do this with nonstop flights.

Also, don't forget that AI is not the only domestic Indian player on the market. Jet is expanding internationally too. Were Jet not around, AI may have needed a 747ADV or A380 sized AC.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 13):
DEL will become a full-fledged maint and engineering base for the 777 and 787

Are you saying no Major Mx on the B777s & B787s at BOM.Can you confirm.
regds
MEL
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LAXDESI
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:27 am

An acquaintance of mine, who recently took the LAX-SIN non-stop enroute to MAA in Economy Plus, was less than thrilled about the trip. He indicated once was enough and he was going to switch back to one stop connection through FRA on LH.
However, a non-stop to India from USA should trump one-stop flight for most people if the premium for non-stop is no more than $200 for economy class. We will soon know if CO non-stop to DEL can sustain a high load factor while charging a premium. Does anyone know what their fares are relative to one stop connection to NY for economy class?

It is difficult for AI to fill up seats in off season for USA market. They are better off using 777s, and they should increase the frequency during peak season-especially around December-January. AI loads are quiet low from USA in off peak season. Why doesn't AI experiment with reducing frequency to BOM from EWR/JFK(say 5 times a week) and redeploy these aircrafts to other sectors where the demand may be higher. I am thinking of how some carriers reduce their frequency to Europe from USA during winter months or deploy a smaller capacity aircraft.

[Edited 2005-11-11 18:29:32]

[Edited 2005-11-11 18:30:20]
 
jaysit
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
It is difficult for AI to fill up seats in off season for USA market. They are better off using 777s, and they should increase the frequency during peak season-especially around December-January. AI loads are quiet low from USA in off peak season. Why doesn't AI experiment with reducing frequency to BOM from EWR/JFK(say 5 times a week) and redeploy these aircrafts to other sectors where the demand may be higher. I am thinking of how some carriers reduce their frequency to Europe from USA during winter months or deploy a smaller capacity aircraft.

The US-India sector on AI has an average load factor of 85% year round. The EWR-BOM flights have the highest load factor of over 90%. Why on earth would they want to reduce frequency?
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LAXDESI
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
The US-India sector on AI has an average load factor of 85% year round. The EWR-BOM flights have the highest load factor of over 90%. Why on earth would they want to reduce frequency?

I didn't think they had such a high load factor. Why are they discounting their tickets so much in off season?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:58 am

If EK becomes a leasing company for some of their A380s (converting options), maybe you see AI leasing some in exchange for more routes for EK themselves in India? (down the road)
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United Airline
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:16 pm

I suppose they will go for the B 747 Advanced. Not sure about the A 380 and the B 777-300ER.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:55 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 22):
I suppose they will go for the B 747 Advanced. Not sure about the A 380 and the B 777-300ER.

Well they have 15 773ER's on order. The AI 747-437's were only delivered from 1993-96 so they are very young aircraft, The ex SQ and KE birds are mainly on 3-5 year leases aren't they!? I think they will need something bigger than the 773ER though in the long term future.
 
himmat01
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:25 pm

I guess AI will go for the A380s when SQ starts dumping them after 8-10 years. Big grin
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Nimish
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:42 pm

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 24):
I guess AI will go for the A380s when SQ starts dumping them after 8-10 years

ROFL!!

I'm waiting for the ex-SQ 777s to come in first. AI already have a bunch of ex-SQ 310 and 747 if I remember correctly.
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karan69
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
I'm sure they will configure the 773s them with large Y class cabins with a total capacity of about 350 pax, only about 50 short of their 744s.

Jaysit, i think they will mostly be more than 350, given carriers like EK and AF have configurations in excess of 400 in a three class layout.

EK 427 seats [34 inches pitch in eco]
AF currently about 350, but these are the GE leases ones, their new ones are to be configured in and around 410 seats.
Also NH, JAL have between 375 and 400 seats on their 77W

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
We will soon know if CO non-stop to DEL can sustain a high load factor while charging a premium. Does anyone know what their fares are relative to one stop connection to NY for economy class?

CO was offering inaugral fares for 38,000 INR and at the same time BA,VS and LH were around 45-47,000 INR.
Ofcourse this was an introductory offer. but i think they will keep the fares around the 40-45,000 mark year round barring the peak season.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
Also, once point to point flights from destinations like Bangalore, Madras, Calcutta, Ahmedabad, etc are developed, you may not need anything larger than a 773 from Bom or Del. And with the US being the primary market for expansion, its much easier to do this with nonstop flights.



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
Also, don't forget that AI is not the only domestic Indian player on the market. Jet is expanding internationally too. Were Jet not around, AI may have needed a 747ADV or A380 sized AC.

Bingo....
 
jaysit
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 20):
I didn't think they had such a high load factor. Why are they discounting their tickets so much in off season?

I'm just citing the various news reports.

All airlines discount their tickets heavily in the off season, irrespective of the routes they fly. That's just a fact. Four months of 99.99% load factors are generally balanced out by 8 months of 75% load factors. Still very high by any measure.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:10 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 26):
Jaysit, i think they will mostly be more than 350, given carriers like EK and AF have configurations in excess of 400 in a three class layout.

EK 427 seats [34 inches pitch in eco]
AF currently about 350, but these are the GE leases ones, their new ones are to be configured in and around 410 seats.
Also NH, JAL have between 375 and 400 seats on their 77W

No they don't. EK seat 364 in a 3 class layout and thats with 10 abreat in Y. They seat 427 is their 2 class 77W's.

AF have nowhere near that, more like 310 in a 3 class layout. The ones they ordered recently will replace the 747 classics to the carribean and will likely seat close to 400 in a 2 class layout.

NH only have 247 on their 77W that fly NRT-JFK, their standard 773's seat about double that almost 500 and are used on domestic routes. JAL are similar.
 
karan69
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RE: Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380

Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 28):

thanks for the correction mate

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