argento
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 1:44 pm

News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:10 am

After the upgrade from CAT II to CAT I , AR could increase frequencies and destinations in the lucrative EZE-USA routes, but I do not have any news about leasing more airplanes or changes of the schedule on December -January-February, that it is summer vacation here in Argentina.(Peak season)
I read about an A310 , but that's it? It is not time for AR to do something?
AA have 14 weekly flights from MIA, 7 from JFK & 7 from DFW
DL 7 from ATL
UA 7 from IAD & 7 from ORD(due Dec 15)
CO 7 from IAH (due Dec 15)
LAN Argentina 7 from EZE to MIA (due Dec 1)

AR just 5 weekly EZE-MIA , 3 to JFK (2 via MIA).
More information or opinion about this situation?
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:33 am

Frankly, AR's current schedule to the US is quite a joke and will no doubt be expanded with CAT I status. My understanding is AR is short aircraft to increase frequencies to MIA and JFK. They only have 4 340-200s, 3 747-475s and 3 A310s. They definitely need additional aircraft.

I understand a Boeing sales team was in Buenos Aires recently flogging the 787, although I do not know how viable this would be for AR as initial deliveries would not happen until 2010, at the earliest.

Also, there is the matter of AR's existing options [or actual orders] with Airbus for 6 340-600s. My understanding is this has a small chance of actually materializing.

Alternatively, they could do something with leases. Any ideas?

The point is clear, however, AR must increase its frequencies to MIA 7x and JFK 7x if they want to compete effectively with all the US majors [especially AA].

From a corporate governance standpoint, what is going on with AR's plans for an initial public offering [IPO]? Grupo Marsans has been blabbing and blabbing for ages about this... and then... nothing!
 
dcajet
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:06 am

IMO, while it is prestigious for AR to fly more often to MIA/JFK and add LAX back to the map, the economics may just not be there for them. Competition from AA, UA, DL and CO is just too strong and they would probably compete on price only, as the American carriers have a powerful weapon: their loyalty schemes and a huge customer base/brand awareness here in the US.

With their rather small fleet, for the time being, they are better off deploying them to Madrid (a license to print money), Rome, Auckland, Sydney, Mexico, Bogota, Caracas, etc. where they can make a nice profit. Prestige alone does not seem to cut it for the current AR administrators, and I guess that is the sensible thing to do.

As to the IPO, it is not Marsans's fault, but rather the relentless pressure of the current Argentine administration through the personna of Ricardo Cirielli, secretary of Air Transport, who has a personal vendetta against the current AR owners. You see, the Argentine government, as shareholders in AR (not sure what percentage they have but believe it be around 5%), keeps vetoeing their annual reports, and as such, they can't access the Buenos Aires Stock Exchange. Apparently, Marsans has cut some of the side deals that Mr. Cirielli had acccess to as head of the Machinists Union at AR in previous times. That's how LAN Argentina got approved as an airline with ghost owners in record time, etc. Sounds familiar? Cheers!
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
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RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:05 am

I've just got home from SCL. While descending, I saw the approach and LANding of an Aerolineas flight on a 342!

Was it just a situation or AR is giving us the honor of returning with the 342? it's time for them to finally truly compete to LAN

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
They only have 4 340-200s, 3 747-475s and 3 A310s. They definitely need additional aircraft.

They got rid of all the 742s?

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 2):
That's how LAN Argentina got approved as an airline with ghost owners

 yawn  get over it


It will be nice to see new long range aircraft in AR colors. It's so wonderfull what foreign investment has made in Argentina's airlines ...

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:10 am

Yes, I was familiar with the government's refusal to certify AR's financial statements. The Kirchner administration and Cirielli have their hands ALL over every decision affecting the Argentine civil aviation industry. Their involvement has been blatently politcal.

Well, getting back to AR, the Company does not have the same access to public investment capital as LA does. LA is a public corporation, trading both in Santiago and New York [on the NYSE as ADRs], with a market capitalization exceeding USD 2 billion and an investment-grade credit rating [along with Chile which has an "A" sovereign credit rating from S&P, compared to "B-" for Argentina].

AR has been posting decent profits and has been able to refinance or pay off the over USD 1 billion in debt it held when Marsans acquired a 92.2% stake in the carrier four years ago [yes, they have already owned AR for 4 years!]. However, Marsans is a privately-held corporation in Spain and has not invested significant capital directly into AR.

Now, regarding AR's route plans, I believe the carrier would need daily frequencies to MIA/JFK [14x per week total to the US] to compete with AA and the other US majors. I just do not see them giving up on one of their key markets.
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 3):
They got rid of all the 742s?

Arcano, they still have their 747-287s, but I understand AR only flies these to MAD, so I did not mention them. Also, I understand they only have 3 747-287s currently operational, as 2 of the examples have been transferred to A7. Of course A7 flies EZE-MAD route in a code-share with AR, so one could argue they are "virtually flying" for AR.

But, these 747-287s are over 25 years old [the mx costs on these must be HUGE] and burn a LOT of fuel so they are not exactly the most efficient aircraft around.

In conclusion, AR needs a comprehensive capital investment plan for its long-range fleet. Flying small numbers of A310s, 747-475s, 747-287s and 340-200s around does not seem to be most efficient use of AR's resources.
 
plunafan
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:50 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:57 am

AFAIK, MIA will return daily in April with the arrive of the 4th A310. The third A310 will arrive in December.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
AR's current schedule to the US is quite a joke

With almost no planes and a freaking lobby on the other side - well, duh!  

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 2):
IMO, while it is prestigious for AR to fly more often to MIA/JFK and add LAX back to the map, the economics may just not be there for them. Competition from AA, UA, DL and CO is just too strong and they would probably compete on price only, as the American carriers have a powerful weapon: their loyalty schemes and a huge customer base/brand awareness here in the US.

With their rather small fleet, for the time being, they are better off deploying them to Madrid (a license to print money), Rome, Auckland, Sydney, Mexico, Bogota, Caracas, etc. where they can make a nice profit. Prestige alone does not seem to cut it for the current AR administrators, and I guess that is the sensible thing to do.

As to the IPO, it is not Marsans's fault, but rather the relentless pressure of the current Argentine administration through the personna of Ricardo Cirielli, secretary of Air Transport, who has a personal vendetta against the current AR owners. You see, the Argentine government, as shareholders in AR (not sure what percentage they have but believe it be around 5%), keeps vetoeing their annual reports, and as such, they can't access the Buenos Aires Stock Exchange. Apparently, Marsans has cut some of the side deals that Mr. Cirielli had acccess to as head of the Machinists Union at AR in previous times. That's how LAN Argentina got approved as an airline with ghost owners in record time, etc. Sounds familiar? Cheers!

GREAT post DCAJet, welcome to the forums. Glad to see someone that knows what they are talking about!

Quoting Arcano (Reply 3):
get over it

You get over it, I made my point with A LOT OF evidence. LAN is NOT complying with the law as AR is. GHOST company LAN Argentina is.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 5):
Arcano, they still have their 747-287s, but I understand AR only flies these to MAD, so I did not mention them. Also, I understand they only have 3 747-287s currently operational, as 2 of the examples have been transferred to A7

LV-OEP and LV-MLR are currently in service. LV-OEP has a crack in the fuse and the cycles were limited by BCA.
The 2 747-287s were not transferred but leased to A7.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
AR has been posting decent profits and has been able to refinance or pay off the over USD 1 billion in debt it held when Marsans acquired a 92.2% stake in the carrier four years ago [yes, they have already owned AR for 4 years!]. However, Marsans is a privately-held corporation in Spain and has not invested significant capital directly into AR.

Even so, this low quality airline (  , for those who DO NOT get it, I'm being sarcastic) was able to pay off its USD 1bn debt in a little more than 3 years. That speaks. The current fleet (but the -400s and the new 735s) were the ones that pulled off AR out of its crisis.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
Well, getting back to AR, the Company does not have the same access to public investment capital as LA does. LA is a public corporation, trading both in Santiago and New York [on the NYSE as ADRs], with a market capitalization exceeding USD 2 billion and an investment-grade credit rating [along with Chile which has an "A" sovereign credit rating from S&P, compared to "B-" for Argentina].

There's a main difference between AR and LA, is that LA was never crashed to the ground by an incompetent spanish Corporation.

It would be good if you took a look at Argentina's current numbers. We are doing better than Chile -[this has nothing to do with the thread, but since you mentioned it...]

Back to the topic,

Its been said that AR will order some more A340s (second hand) or will sign the deal for the 6 A340-600s, plus a remaining 744 GE powered. Some people are speculating that it'll be an ex-UA 744 PW powered.
The fleet is in expansion, but for domestic and regional. The International, is mainly being renewed. It is said, that AR will fully take advantage of CAT I status in early 2006.

Cheers!  
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

[Edited 2005-11-14 05:17:25]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6304
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 2):
American carriers have a powerful weapon: their loyalty schemes and a huge customer base/brand awareness

I agree. And I seriously believe that AR should enter into mileage accrual/redemption agreements with other major airlines from the Americas and Europe. That would mean more foreign passengers flying AR.

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 2):
Mexico

At the moment, AR flies EZE-LIM-MEX 5x weekly with A310-300's, and MX flies non-stop MEX-EZE with a 763ER. The main strength of AR is price, but otherwise MX is a stronger competitor because it offers superior service (especially in business class), more frequencies, non-stop service and more mileage accrual possibilities (AA, IB, LA, QF, JL, LH, RG, AC frequent flyer programs and others'). AR really needs to switch to an A342 and fly non-stop if it seriously wants to compete credibly.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
AR1300
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:22 pm

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:07 pm

I think Gaston already explained this very well.So, no need for unnecesary babbling from my side.
Right on the head, mate!!

Mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
You get over it, I made my point with A LOT OF evidence. LAN is NOT complying with the law as AR is. GHOST company LAN Argentina is.



Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
We are doing better than Chile -[this has nothing to do with the thread, but since you mentioned it...]

AR is owned in more than 90% by foerign capitals; obviously aside from Argentina's regular law, so? you tend to use big words about LAN illegalness and don't realise that AR has some "special treatment" of its own, but here you don't talk about corruption. You should be more humble and thank the lord for there is still people willing to invest in Argentina's aviation


And since you want to argue about economics, Chile was just chosen the best economy of the world in terms of Macroeconomics management by the World Economic Forum. Our risk is very low and it's much more easy to get credits at better rates for us than for you.
What do you win? better distribution and better PIB per capita (about US500). You can read the "La Nacion" report about what you people called "Chilean Miracle" if you want to hear some expert Argentine opinion...
Otherwise, you'd be saying that Argentina is doing better than England because this year you will grow more, which obviously has absolutely no sustain.

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
There's a main difference between AR and LA, is that LA was never crashed to the ground by an incompetent spanish Corporation.

Unfortunately, you have misinterpreted my statements. I believe AR is a high-quality airline [not a low quality carrier] that generates consistent, growing cash flows and has been able to grow its business with scarce resources for capital investment. AR has done a brilliant job adding new metal from the used market [747-475s, 737-528s, MD83s, etc] and has successfully reopened important routes, such the EZE-LIM-MEX flight and increased frequencies to the key MAD market.

However, AR faces challenges, just like any other carrier. With the arrival of LAN Argentina, AR no longer dominate the domestic cabotage market and will face 7x new EZE-MIA frequencies from 4M less than in three weeks. How 4M obtained its operating license from 'certain government officials' is not an issue here; the fact remains 4M exists and will compete with AR going forward.

The fact remains Marsans is a VERY savvy investor and has not invested its own capital into AR; AR's investments have been realized using internal operational cash flows. I am taking a wild guess here, but Marsans' equity stake in AR is probably worth ~USD 750 million, not bad return!

Also, the fact remains LA has superior access to capital relative to AR. Chile has the HIGHEST sovereign credit rating of any nation in Latin America, whereas Argentina's is deeply non-investment grade at B-. Its capital markets are more liquid and transparent than Argentina's. Also, there is no comparing the investment climate in Chile relative to Argentina. Everything from monetary policy to utility rate regulation is obscure and influenced by political meddling in Argentina.

Chile ranked 21 in the Transparency CPI index, along with Japan and Spain. Argentina ranked 97, along with Algeria, Mozambique and Serbia. Nonetheless, I have deep family ties to Argentina, I adore the country and would pick it over any other country in region [except for Uruguay perhaps] to live in.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:59 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 10):
AR is owned in more than 90% by foerign capitals; obviously aside from Argentina's regular law, so?

No, Grupo ARSA owner of Aerolineas Argentinas, is an Argentine company, with Argentine legal domicile -that is owned by Grupo Marsans- you never get the point. LAN Argentina is owned by LAN -with legal domicile in Miami or Santiago de Chile-, clearly LAN is violationg the law, not AR.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 10):
you tend to use big words about LAN illegalness and don't realise that AR has some "special treatment" of its own, but here you don't talk about corruption. You should be more humble and thank the lord for there is still people willing to invest in Argentina's aviation

Do you ever read what you write? It's a bunch of bull. Special treatment? HA! Yeah, for sure. Letting other airlines enter the country without respecting the law, blocking every fiscal balance, every freaking year, that's a special treatment, huh? Good for you buddy, you seem to realize what the reality is here...  Yeah sure

Quoting Arcano (Reply 10):
Our risk is very low and it's much more easy to get credits at better rates for us than for you.

Check the latest Country Risk Rates, Argentina is even lower. The latest IDH (Indice de Desarrollo Humano) released last week, showed that Argentina is better positioned than Chile, and it is the best positioned country in Latin America.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):

Pdpsol,
Nice post buddy. Stand corrected. Still, LAN has never defaulted nor ever came back from a default in 3 years.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:11 pm

Hola Arcano,

We Argentines do not see Chile as an example, no matter what newspapers say. You cannot compare Argentina and Chile for various reasons, first of all because of each country's population, size and history.

But since I see you want to talk about Chile, let's do it. Indeed Chile shows terrific economic statistics, but at the very same time Chile shows a scaring, growing level of income inequality. In other words, in your country the gap between rich people and poor people becomes bigger and bigger every day. You guys have reached one of the worst levels in the region, and therefore in the whole world.

This issue has been and still is a notorious side-effect on Chilean economy. This inequality is also showing up on other areas - mainly in education and healthcare. In average, schools in Chile cost the same than schools in Poland, just that the Polish average GDP is twice higher than Chile's. Healthcare is also a big problem for poor Chilean people. According to the last numbers, 60% of the patients looked after, for free, in Argentine public hospitals in Santa Cruz province are Chileans who currently live in Chile and do not receive public healthcare in their own country.

Arcano, let's not forget that Chilean reforms were done under an authoritarian, military regime. Personally, I don't want my country to go through (another) dictatorship just to follow Chile's path.

This shows why we Argentines don't feel Chile is the example to follow. Argentina has gone through a couple of years of economic revival after a decade of free market policies. We have come to the conclussion that competitiviness is not a benefit by itself, that it doesn't stop unemployment, and that it doesn't avoid the growth of poverty and inequality.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-11-15 06:14:49]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:14 pm

No offence Arcano, but Marambino . . . Well pointed, educated and "respectable" post!!
Hope the "respect" continues!

Now back to the original thread!!

Does any one have any news as to how Aerolineas del Sur is going? I read that Sky was initiating services to MAD. Will Aerolineas follow (ex SCL)?
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 14):
Does any one have any news as to how Aerolineas del Sur is going? I read that Sky was initiating services to MAD. Will Aerolineas follow (ex SCL)?

Hi TBCITDG, my understanding is Aerolineas del Sur is operating a few [I believe three] 737-230s. I honestly do not know how they are performing vis-a-vis LA in their home market. Also, I would be curious to know what their marketing strategy is; I imagine they share the same AR website.

Marsans' original grandiose plans to set up additional subsidiaries in Peru, Uruguay, etc. appear to have evaporated like a glass of 'fino' left out in the Andalusian sun.

AR is a very interesting case study in a commercial turnaround coinciding with Argentina's macroeconomic recovery. The carrier has been stabilized and has recouped many of its important markets. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, it does face very important challenges for the future.

In addition to the issues I mentioned in my earlier post [access to capital, increased competition, etc.] I also believe AR faces a very serious matter relating to enhanced expectations by its labor force. AR's pilots have gone on strike twice this already. Their demands for improved compensation will not go away.

This issue is NOT unique to the civil aviation sector in Argentina. Several other industries, including energy/oil/gas, have experienced labor strikes this year. This is related to the current government's political meddling in monetary policy [inflation will exceed 10% this year] and the general economic recovery.

Kirchner is TERRIFIED of staunching his country's economic growth through reasonable monetary policy. Unfortunately, in Argentina, he can get away with this interference as the Central Bank is not politically independent from the executive branch.
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 12):
Grupo ARSA owner of Aerolineas Argentinas

Buddy, wake up, spaniards controlls more than 90% of AR... the rest is cheap propaganda and a self blindness. Any respectable risk ranking in investment, soreveign debt and capital availability will show Chile better ranked. Still, Argentina's current aviation relies in foreign capital, so instead of crying about it, you should be the first interested on it, because with the same lack of perspective, I would say that there is ghost companies to make AR look Argentine, since we all know it's fully controlled by Marsans.

Buddy,

AR IS CONTROLLED BY SPANISH COMPANY MARSANS,

so you have nothing to say about LAN ARGENTINA which we all know was made by a legal resourse to exist under LAN CHILE

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 14):
No offence Arcano



Quoting Marambio (Reply 13):
Hola Arcano,

Marambio, all wise and very well explained analysis, indeed, as I posted above Argentina is still a richer country and have better distribution than us. Actually, the income distribution is the black dot of our economy, and we all hope this will tend to be more equal.

As you also said, all the reforms well made under a dictatorship that could sustain the social cost implyes.

TBC, once again, I didn't want to talk about it, I just answer as an economist that I am to what have been posted above.

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 16):
Buddy, wake up, spaniards controlls more than 90% of AR... the rest is cheap propaganda and a self blindness. Any respectable risk ranking in investment, soreveign debt and capital availability will show Chile better ranked. Still, Argentina's current aviation relies in foreign capital, so instead of crying about it, you should be the first interested on it, because with the same lack of perspective, I would say that there is ghost companies to make AR look Argentine, since we all know it's fully controlled by Marsans

FOR GOD'S SAKE Arcano, do you ever read what I write? Grupo ARSA is a LEGALLY owned by Spanish people Argentine company. Grupo ARSA, is the owner of Aerolineas Argentinas and Austral.
LAN Argentina is a company owned by the CHILEAN/AMERICAN company named LAN. Period. LAN is failing, AR not. Buddy, when you have a clue of the Argentine system, talk. You don't, sorry.

Salud!
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:06 am

Hola de nuevo Arcano,

Quoting Arcano (Reply 16):
Buddy,

AR IS CONTROLLED BY SPANISH COMPANY MARSANS,

so you have nothing to say about LAN ARGENTINA which we all know was made by a legal resourse to exist under LAN CHILE

While it is completely true that Aerolineas Argentinas is owned by a foreign group, to say that because of this Lan Argentina is legal, or is allowed to be majority-owned by a foreign group is fallacious. Aerolineas' majority got into foreign hands through a Menemist excemption (sponsored by former Minister Domingo Cavallo) allowing Iberia to temporarily hold 83% of the company's stocks. This law, or better, this exception of the actual law, lasts until today because it has been politically impossible to return Aerolineas to an Argentine owner.

However, most (if not all) of those who criticize Lan Argentina's legality because of its owner's nationality, also criticize the fact that Aerolineas still is in foreign hands! The Government itself unofficially intends to find a solution contemplating Aerolineas' return to being an at-least-51%-Argentine-owned company.

The consequences of Aerolineas being foreign-owned have been negative, and there is absolutely no point in saying that Lan Argentina should be allowed to violate the Argentine law just because another airline already did it, without the competent authorities being able to do something about it thus far.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-11-16 03:09:48]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:18 am

SO, why is the point of attacking LAN? on one side you support foreign capital controlling an airline in Argentina, for the other, you don't. Don't you see the contradiction? AR is good, but 4M is not for this "illegal" (according to you) company. Marsans is fine, but LAN fails (again, according to you) the law for there should be 50%+1 share in Argentine hands controlling the airline. Air Comet Plus can transfer aircraft, but LAN "bribes authorities" for flying within the country.
Marsans legally controls what should be controlled by you people.

Accept it, LAN ARGENTINA SA) and Eagle Air/Arnaflug (Iceland)">IS LEGAL, and if what you say was right, unless some court actually determinates it isn't, as AFAIK besides some fuzz about it, nobody had been able to determinate the opposite. AR should be Argentine but is not either. And if you were wight, LAN would be the foreign company controlling an airline operating in Argentina, just like Aerolineas Argentinas

This is why I say wake up and stop accusing LAN of being a Chilean company controlling an Argentine airline. AR SA) and Eagle Air/Arnaflug (Iceland)">IS THE SAME.
And LAN American? good to kwow, I had no idea that Mr Piñera, Eben and Cueto hold american passports...

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 14):
Does any one have any news as to how Aerolineas del Sur is going? I read that Sky was initiating services to MAD. Will Aerolineas follow (ex SCL)?

They are doing great, for Sky's bad luck. Their loads are good, holding about 10% of the market. More interesting: they are cometing to LAN in routes Sky didn't wanted, as the soon to be open Copiapo and the announced Easter Island. Remember that they started operations with Punta Arenas, southernmost city only served by LAN at the time, and forcing Sky to start flights as well.
Perhaps there are few announcement as fleet and international expansion, with EZE as their first destination.

It's the only airline offering business seats on its domestic flights, although LAN ocassionaly does it when they fly internal destinatios (continental) with 763.

I've heard some passegers also saying that their service is very good, even better than LAN. That is competition!

regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting Marambio (Reply 18):
Lan Argentina should be allowed to violate the Argentine law just because another airline already did it

100% agree, I just don't like all the attacks against LAN when the major airline of the country also violates the fact that it should be controlled by Argentines as well.

Illegal is illegal, no argument about that. And as I've said 1000 times, if LAN violated the law, it should be expelled, creating a well deserved financial disaster for the airline.

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting Marambio (Reply 18):
there is absolutely no point in saying that Lan Argentina should be allowed to violate the Argentine law just because another airline already did it

Well, buddy... here's the full phrase. Seems you like taking things out of context.
I'm elaborating a much better answer, but on the meantime, I'll not let you get away with this one.

Salud!
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:45 am

Arcano, first of all, please refrain from taking a part of a sentence out of its context. I did not say "Lan Argentina should be allowed to violate the Argentine law just because another airline already did it.". I said "there is absolutely no point in saying that Lan Argentina should be allowed to violate the Argentine law just because another airline already did it." Thank you.

Now, back to topic. In the Argentine Republic (as in most countries) laws are not retroactive. Let me also remind you that Aerolineas Argentinas' board composition was approved by a former Government more than 10 years ago. It is therefore impossible to change it right now unless a new, Argentine investor appears and buys the company. If you are such a fan of free-market, I guess you agree with me the Government cannot expropriate Aerolineas from Marsans.

You claim I am defending Marsans. I am sorry to tell you I do not. I do not agree at all with Aerolineas' current board composition and I firmly believe its members should be 51% Argentines. But since laws here are not retroactive, there's nothing we can do.

On the other side, Lan Argentina is a new company. Thus it is the Government's duty to make any new company, including Lan Argentina, respect the law beforehand. It makes me very angry that Aerolineas' composition creates a precedent -according to some people like you- which can be used by Lan Argentina.

I'm off to bed now.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting Marambio (Reply 22):
Now, back to topic. In the Argentine Republic (as in most countries) laws are not retroactive. Let me also remind you that Aerolineas Argentinas' board composition was approved by a former Government more than 10 years ago. It is therefore impossible to change it right now unless a new, Argentine investor appears and buys the company. If you are such a fan of free-market, I guess you agree with me the Government cannot expropriate Aerolineas from Marsans.

Now, this is one big reason why Marsans would like to execute the an initial public offering [IPO] for ARSA. Marsans can i) provide liquidity for its 92.2% equity stake in ARSA and ii) broaden its institutional equity ownership in ARSA to include majority Argentine ownership.

Obviously, Argentina's 49%/51% ownership laws belong in the middle-ages, not the 21st Century. Nonetheless, the nation's civil aviation laws are what they are and will not change in the near future barring any economic policy catharsis by the Kirchner administration or key members of the legislature.

AR and AU are owned by ARSA; Marsans owns 92.2% of ARSA; Marsans is incorporated in the Spanish Kingdom, not the Argentine Republic, full stop.
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:06 pm

Thanks for the info Arcano,

Vamos chicos, let's keep the thread friendly.

I was made aware that Aerolineas del Sur will start operations to EZE, code sharing with sister company AR.
As time progresses, I am sure that AR del Sur will need additional aircraft. Anything in the rumor mill? Would AR or Austral "lend" some of it's aircraft to their new sister??
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:35 am

Well, silly though this thread may have become, it is still interesting enough to draw me out from my long absence from the forum.

Firstly, I want to clarify that what I am not here to do is:

-Discuss the legitimacy of LAN Argentina, a topic already beaten to death;
-Engage in Argentina vs. Chile or AR vs. LAN arguments with anyone with a closed mind, especially Arcano.

Because frankly, I have better things to do and there really is a limit to how much I care.

Just a few points I wish to elaborate on:

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 15):
Hi TBCITDG, my understanding is Aerolineas del Sur is operating a few [I believe three] 737-230s. I honestly do not know how they are performing vis-a-vis LA in their home market. Also, I would be curious to know what their marketing strategy is; I imagine they share the same AR website.

Hola PDP. Since little is publicly known about Aerolíneas del Sur, I'll try and paint a detailed picture drawing from my own knowledge:

Aerolíneas del Sur has quite a motley fleet of 737-200s. The first two, which arrived a year ago, were CC-CFD and CC-CJP. The first was christened "Magallanes" and the second "Tarapaca". Both of these former Canadian birds (ex-Zip) were leased through Pegasus, and it is of my understanding that one of them is a rare -ER variant.
Earlier this year a third aircraft came from Canada, registered CC-CGM. Varig's last 737-200 (PP-VMH) somehow escaped the scrapman to become the fourth aircraft for the Chilean airline, where it was re-registered CC-CIJ, while Aerolíneas Argentinas's oldest (LV-WSY at the time) became the fifth, though it took several months for the 33-year-old bird to cross the Andes. Aerolíneas del Sur's sixth and seventh aircraft should be N942PG (ex-Zip) and LV-WTX (ex-AR, sister to LV-WSY).

Aerolíneas del Sur serves five destinations from Santiago (Antofagasta, Calama, Iquíque, Puerto Montt and Punta Arenas), with Buenos Aires-EZE, Concepción next on the agenda followed by Balmaceda, Copiapó and Temuco early next year.

They have no active web-site and to date, no wide-body aircraft to begin services to "Madrid" and "Miami". Whatever their domestic success (which I hear is limited), internationally Aerolíneas del Sur are still a joke.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 15):
Marsans' original grandiose plans to set up additional subsidiaries in Peru, Uruguay, etc. appear to have evaporated like a glass of 'fino' left out in the Andalusian sun.

Uruguay, Bolivia and Paraguay it seems were all pipedreams--be surprised if any are in existence by 2010. However, two projects were being pursued at least up until recently, one in the Dom. Rep. (where both Aero Continente and LAN have failed, incidentally) and the other in Peru.

-The former, to be named "Air Plus Dominicana", was scheduled to start up about now, with two former Jetsgo MD-83s and Austral in charge of the operation (as they are the major MD operator in the Marsans group). However, as of yet the project has stalled, the first of the former Jetsgo aircraft joined Austral last month instead (reg. LV-BDE, or "Bidet") and the second should follow suit.

-The latter, to be named "Aerolíneas del Perú", failed to begin operations on October 1st as they had advertised, and is still very much on the drawing board. Initially, they announced "6 737-300s", which became "6 737-500s". It was strongly rumoured that AR's 8th 737-500 (LV-BBW)--the first of the fomer China Southern excamples--was to be transferred to Peru. In the end however, it entered service last month with AR and if or when the Peruvian subsidiary does start up, chances are it will be with a good old 737-200, just to provide Peruvian passengers with a genuine alternative to Aero Cóndor, Star Perú or TANS Perú.

That's all I have to say, for now at least.

Saludos a todos, y portanse bien!  Cool

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
plunafan
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:50 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 25):
Uruguay, Bolivia and Paraguay it seems were all pipedreams

Marsans wanted to buy Pluna in 2003. Well, only the 48% owned by the Uruguayan government.
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting Plunafan (Reply 26):
Marsans wanted to buy Pluna in 2003. Well, only the 48% owned by the Uruguayan government.

To the best of my understanding, this proposal received a pretty unanimous rejection in Uruguay, for reasons that are at least partially understandable.

Apparently Pluna are currently in pretty serious trouble. Varig is in talks with Conviasa over the 49% stake of Pluna they wish to sell but personally I don't see what Pluna stand to gain if Varig hand over the reins to Chávez (bearing in mind the other 51% is in the hands of the notoriously incompetent Uruguayan Government). As it is, since Pluna wet-leased one of their 737-200s to the Venezuelan state carrier last July, leaving an aircraft shortage which has had to be filled with an AeroSur 727. In addition, Pluna are in desperate need of extra funds to acquire a second ATR-42 for the upcoming peak season and a second 767-300(ER) so as to allow for the other to undergo heavy maintenance.

I sincerely hope Pluna are able to pull through, as they are now Uruguay's sole surviving airline after the demise of Uair and are one of Latin America's oldest and most affable.

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
plunafan
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:50 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 27):
To the best of my understanding, this proposal received a pretty unanimous rejection in Uruguay, for reasons that are at least partially understandable.

The proposal was rejected because the "coima" wasn't sufficient, so the uruguayan government didn't accept it.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 27):
I don't see what Pluna stand to gain if Varig hand over the reins to Chávez (bearing in mind the other 51% is in the hands of the notoriously incompetent Uruguayan Government).

First, Conviasa will not buy 49%, at least 25% and 24% other investors. Uruguayan government 48%, two investors 2% and Pluna's employees 1%. And belive me that Pluna will be safe in hands of people who has more than 20 years working in the company.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 27):
since Pluna wet-leased one of their 737-200s to the Venezuelan state carrier last July, leaving an aircraft shortage which has had to be filled with an AeroSur 727.

No, Aerosur 727 was leased for some days because the 757 has problems with the engine and a 732 was in C-Check. Aerosur 727 operates only 1 or 2 flights a day to GRU. Next sunday the 757 will be in air again and the 727 in Bolivia.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 27):
Pluna are in desperate need of extra funds to acquire a second ATR-42 for the upcoming peak season and a second 767-300(ER) so as to allow for the other to undergo heavy maintenance.

The money to BUY another ATR 42 is ready, the problem is the 767.

Saludos
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Plunafan (Reply 26):
Marsans wanted to buy Pluna in 2003. Well, only the 48% owned by the Uruguayan government.

One more minor point to this failed expansion by Marsans SA and AR: as part of the deal to acquire RG's interest in PU, RG insisted Marsans/AR enter into an agreement prohibiting them from operating in Brazil for a given [perhaps idefinite] period of time.

Of course, Marsans/AR refused the agreement and RG was left holding the bag with an illiquid investment at a time it was [and still is] desperate for CASH!

Now, getting back to the topic at hand: AR's future!

As I have mentioned here, AR has been performing quite well and I believe the arrival of 4M will only improve the civil aviation sector in Argentina. What do fellow a.netters think abou the challenges facing AR:

- Access to capital to finance investments [IPO, Argentine sovereign rating, etc.]

- Increased domestic and international competition from 4M and LA as well as flights to Brasil offered by the "jetBlue/WN of South America", G3!

- Increased salary demands by personnel; again, this issue is NOT unique to the civil aviation sector and affects many other industries in Argentina

PDPsol
 
argento
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 1:44 pm

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:46 am

For me one of the big challenge on international routes are to increase some frequencies , like MIA-JFK-FCO.
Another point is codeshare agreements or enter in 1 of the major alliancies.
Add some destination , LAX-MXP-FRA ,and do some of them non-stop,MEX.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:54 am

Not only to increase flights to US and Europe. Also, AR need to improve flights to/from Brazil. There are important cities in Brazil without direct link to EZE like CWB and CNF as well as Brazilian Northeast. Gol will start next month ROS and COR.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: News From Aerolineas Argentinas?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:10 pm

Hola Chicos/as!

I don't mean to bring things down a little but what is the latest on the strike that is taking place?
Is it really about getting rid of Marsans? Or is it simply about money?
4M also seem to be on the verge of yet another strike, only months after it began operations!

Thanxs

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