hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:33 pm

DL started nonstop flights ATL-GIG as of October/05, in addition to its two daily ATL-GRU B763s.

After 45 days of operations, reports so far are that DL's nonstop flight to GIG is huge success and part of it is DL marketing campaign, since Rio de Janeiro has been featuring as DL's main destination on its website front-page: http://www.delta.com/home/index.jsp

Any more information about DL operations to GIG? Apparently loads and yields have been very helthy, yet again undermining the "myth" that GIG is a low-yielding destination, but I assume the real test will come in March/06 when the low season starts, i.e. after New Year's eve and Carnaval!  Wink

Also, DL's success with its third flight to Brazil (GIG) appears in stark contrast to UA's third flight to Brazil (IAD-GRU) which so far has shown average to poor loads and yields. Perhaps it indicates that UA should have opened IAD-GIG nonstop instead. I'm sure UA is taking note of DL's success in GIG.

Rgs,
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:52 pm

Nice to know that this route is successful. On the other hand, ATL to SDQ begins Dec 1 and is doing very poorly. Already downgraded from a 763 to a 757. Except for Christmas and NewYears, (which go back to the 763) the flights are mostly empty.
 
exusair
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 12:15 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:27 pm

Cargo revenues seem to be driving profitablility in Brazil and other South American markets.

GIG has done surprisingly well in addition to SCL and GRU service. The cargo pretty much pays for the flight with passenger loads going straight to the profit margin.
 
Neo
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:54 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
After 45 days of operations, reports so far are that DL's nonstop flight to GIG is huge success and part of it is DL marketing campaign, since Rio de Janeiro has been featuring as DL's main destination on its website front-page: http://www.delta.com/home/index.jsp

Yes, I noticed that and was impressed by Delta's iniciative in promoting GIG as their main destination. Great picture of Sugar Loaf by the way!!

DL did a pretty good job and took the right decision in starting non-stop flights to GIG. GIG has lately proven it is no longer a merely low-yield destination, gathering also a lot of high yield pax, specially from the Oil, Telecomunication, Automobile and Energy industries.

In addition to that GIG now is almost big as GRU for domestic traffic just 633.000 pax behind, and offers far better conections to cities like BZH, BSB, SSA, VIX, BEL, AJU, MCZ, capturing also more high yield pax from these markets. It is important to remember as been said by LipeGIG beforore, GRU traffic relies 60% on connecting pax, which confirms how significant connections are.

Regarding UAL's second flight to GRU, I believe GIG would be a better option as it would allow them to have a new destination and capture conecting pax from RG network in GIG which is considerably strong, thus creating better options for pax flying to th Us from those cities mentioned above, avoiding in some case also the need to change aiport in SAO.

Take VIX for an example, conections thru GRU are terrible to say the least, there are only 2 non-stop flights (JJ) but very offtime to allow good connections to intl departures, including US, demanding 6-8 hour layover is GRU. The only alternative for connections is changing aiports in SAO, which is already bad anyways... If GIG offered more intl nonstop flight, for sure it would allow better conections for VIX and other important cities in NE and SE of Brazil.

Rgs,

Neo
 
aces727
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:40 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:39 pm

Great news for Delta and GIG. I am curious about Delta's operations in latin America, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of these operations relay on connecting passengers. Atlanta, compared to Miami, New York, L.A. does not have a big latin population to support daily flights. (The only latin airline flying to ATL is Aeromexico). I know many people from Panama and Bogota that travel on Delta because they offer better connections to Europe and smaller US citites. Does any one know how is Delta doing on the ATL-BOG, ATL-LIM routes?
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Any more information about DL operations to GIG? Apparently loads and yields have been very helthy, yet again undermining the "myth" that GIG is a low-yielding destination, but I assume the real test will come in March/06 when the low season starts, i.e. after New Year's eve and Carnaval!

Hi Hardi!

Delta is really a success. The business elite is always 75% to 100% sold, altough number for Y during the week is under 55% to 60%. On fridays (like yesterday), saturdays and sundays is easy to see 100% load on the flights (both Y and C). There are some explanations for this as per DL comments:

a) Rio is the only O&D market to Atlanta in Brazil (Coca-Cola and CNN)
b) DL offer the better option from Rio to West Coast (on the days Varig do not runs GIG-GRU-LAX), as well as Chicago, Boston, Orlando, and several other cities.
c) DL made a fantastic marketing campaign in Rio (Newspapers, Magazines, and their slogan was " No need to pass thru São Paulo "
d) Coca-Cola was a strong customer of DL in São Paulo, and transfer their cargo needs (may be the best DL customer in Brazil) to Rio.
e) Rio is underserved of non-stop from US.

Yesterday and Thursday, the flight departs full.
Bookings for the next year, including the months after the high season are really good.

For Today:
ATL-GIG: 21C 107Y
ATL-GRU: 25C 140Y
ATL-GRU: 17C 108Y

GIG-ATL: 32C 157Y
GRU-ATL: 36C 169Y
GRU-ATL: 30C 155Y

Looking for C numbers, seems that DL take pax from the others. With 2 planes they can take 72C , now they are close to get 100C today (105C yesterday). Impressive numbers.

Quoting Neo (Reply 3):
If GIG offered more intl nonstop flight, for sure it would allow better conections for VIX and other important cities in NE and SE of Brazil.

Varig will offer more flights from Rio non-stop in january. Routes are not assigned yet, but rumors from RG says: 3x GIG-CDG (subject to approval from CERNAI), 3x GIG-MIA (no problem on bilateral), 3x GIG-JFK, more 2x GIG-LIS, a regular GIG-MUC and more 2x GIG-FRA. Some will be seasonal , others can be turned regular. Varig will probably add to it's fleet a 777-200 non-ER as well as put back to service 2 772 and 1 M11.
For the domestic routes, one new GIG-VIX will be added on Nov, 16 (night flight VIX-GIG and early morning GIG-VIX). Also flights to CNF, CPQ and CWB could be added very soon in conditions to run good connections for the international flights.

Quoting Exusair (Reply 2):
GIG has done surprisingly well in addition to SCL and GRU service. The cargo pretty much pays for the flight with passenger loads going straight to the profit margin.

Right, and probably will be even more when Delta stat the code-share with Gol to connect their pax to CNF, BSB, VIX, SSA, CPQ and even CGH (a better option for people who live in the south zone of São Paulo), it could drive profit margins to higher levels.

Regards
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 1):
On the other hand, ATL to SDQ begins Dec 1 and is doing very poorly. Already downgraded from a 763 to a 757. Except for Christmas and NewYears, (which go back to the 763) the flights are mostly empty.

How would you know if they haven't even started?

Quoting Aces727 (Reply 4):
Does any one know how is Delta doing on the ATL-BOG, ATL-LIM routes?

Here are the loads for ATL-LIM and ATL-BOG for today, tomorrow, and Monday. The loads are how many seats are LEFT

ATL-BOG
16C (22) 54Y (152)

ATL-LIM
1145AM: 17C (24) 126Y (228)
453PM: 22C (36) 109Y (249)

Tomorrow:
ATL-BOG 1C (22) 28Y (152)

ATL-LIM
453PM: 25C (36) 95Y (249)

Monday:
ATL-BOG 0C (22) -24Y (143)

ATL-LIM
453PM: 30C (36) 91Y (249)
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 6):

Numbers for LIM are not so good (looking for the 3 days giving by you), and DL uses a bigger 767, their 764 on ATL-LIM.

Anyone knows if there are any plans to use their 764's on Brazilian routes ? As they cannot introduce nowadays a new frequency, it's not a real way to increase the seats to Brazilian market ?
Also, any plans to use the 5th freedom and fly to MVD ?

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Varig will probably add to it's fleet a 777-200 non-ER as well as put back to service 2 772 and 1 M11.

The 772 that there are adding is the last ex. UA bird stored in the desert  Smile
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Numbers for LIM are not so good (looking for the 3 days giving by you), and DL uses a bigger 767, their 764 on ATL-LIM.

While the pax numbers do not look good, the cargo loads should more than make that up, as cargo is the main reason DL was so fast at upgrading their daily 757 via the 763 to the 764. Just pax-wise, the 757 would still be the best plane on most days, but the 764 simply offers the superior cargo space.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Anyone knows if there are any plans to use their 764's on Brazilian routes ? As they cannot introduce nowadays a new frequency, it's not a real way to increase the seats to Brazilian market ?

Currently there are no plans to use the 764, but if the demand rises enough to justify them, be it pax numbers or (more likely) cargo demand, it could become an option.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Also, any plans to use the 5th freedom and fly to MVD ?

Didn't know that DL has 5th freedom rights from Brazil, but it might be a good option to at least have one of their 3 Brazil flights do a tag-on flight to another not-yet served airport to make better use of their planes instead of having them all sit on the ground for 14+ hours.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:01 am

Good that GIG is doing fine for DL. They need profits desperately.

Those nubers for BOG and LIM are horrendous! This must be the worst week of the year for DL in BOG, as their year-round load factor is always high 70s-low 80s....
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 8):
The 772 that there are adding is the last ex. UA bird stored in the desert

Right. Probably will be with Varig in no more than 45 days and will be ready to start revenue service on january 2006.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
Posts: 2718
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Any more information about DL operations to GIG? Apparently loads and yields have been very helthy, yet again undermining the "myth" that GIG is a low-yielding destination, but I assume the real test will come in March/06 when the low season starts, i.e. after New Year's eve and Carnaval!

You know the flight may actually do Ok during off season. Look at the exchange rate. The way it the US dollar is heading down, there will be a lot of leisure traffic originating in Brazil. That leisure traffic is never the very low yield we see in the North Atlantic with most roundtrips selling in the $700-$900 range. That is 7 or 8 cents a mile, which is good quality revenue for coach in longhaul flights.

A bigger question is in what condition Delta will be several months from now. The company is in turmoil.
Stop pop up ads
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 9):
Didn't know that DL has 5th freedom rights from Brazil, but it might be a good option to at least have one of their 3 Brazil flights do a tag-on flight to another not-yet served airport to make better use of their planes instead of having them all sit on the ground for 14+ hours.

In fact the bilateral Brazil-US allow a lot of 5th freedom (and that's why AA flies GRU-ASU), as well as Brazilian airlines can use also the 5th freedom to continue flights to Japan and Canada among other places that i forget.
Yes , i agree that they could introduce a tag to MVD to use their planes (for example).

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 9):
Currently there are no plans to use the 764, but if the demand rises enough to justify them, be it pax numbers or (more likely) cargo demand, it could become an option.

With the exchange rate going down, probably on july 06 we will at least one 764 flying to Brazil. Also, Brazilian Exports & Imports are growing at very impressive 20% per year.

Thanks for your rush reply.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
User avatar
N747PA
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:11 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:40 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 6):
Here are the loads for ATL-LIM and ATL-BOG for today, tomorrow, and Monday. The loads are how many seats are LEFT

FYI,Posting those numbers on a public website is grounds for termination of the employee.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:38 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
In fact the bilateral Brazil-US allow a lot of 5th freedom (and that's why AA flies GRU-ASU), as well as Brazilian airlines can use also the 5th freedom to continue flights to Japan and Canada among other places that i forget.

Cool, didn't know that. Guess it's time for DL to both increase aircraft utilization and add some currently unserved destinations, or perhaps even do GRU-EZE, since they can't add any flights there, just as an idea.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:03 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Looking for C numbers, seems that DL take pax from the others. With 2 planes they can take 72C , now they are close to get 100C today (105C yesterday). Impressive numbers.

Indeed, number are impressive.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
rumors from RG says: 3x GIG-CDG (subject to approval from CERNAI), 3x GIG-MIA (no problem on bilateral), 3x GIG-JFK, more 2x GIG-LIS, a regular GIG-MUC and more 2x GIG-FRA. Some will be seasonal , others can be turned regular.

Too optimistic the above new routes....especially for an airline in such deep problems are RG. It seems very crazy to open routes such as GIG-MUC, GIG-JFK, GIG-CDG - some of them RG has tried before and failed, notably GIG-CDG. I dont think RG will effect these routes.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Anyone knows if there are any plans to use their 764's on Brazilian routes ? As they cannot introduce nowadays a new frequency, it's not a real way to increase the seats to Brazilian market ?

With 3 daiy flights to Brazil I dont think DL needs the B764 for the Brazilian market at the moment.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
A bigger question is in what condition Delta will be several months from now. The company is in turmoil.

Correct. The recommendation, in general, is to avoid DL - you never know for sure whether your flight will acutally take off! How serious is the situation at DL? Would it be too risky to do a bookyng, say, 2 months from now?

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:31 pm

One interesting information is that while DL uses the B763ER to both GRU and GIG, GIG was sloted with an ex-Gulf Air B763ER with a different configuration on business class (C: 6 x 5 = 30 seats), while the two daily GRU flights B763ER get the standard DL configuration on business (C: 6 x 6 = 36 seats).

As a result, GIG gets 30 daily C seats and GRU gets 72 daily C seats!

With the good results in GIG, any chance DL could interchange one of the higher-yielding B763ERs used to GRU to GIG?

Rgs,
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
some of them RG has tried before and failed, notably GIG-CDG

VARIG did succeed in GIG-CDG. Aircraft shortage was the reason for axing this route, on behalf of other routes with this 763 used to CDG.

As for GIG-MUC, it's really odd, but there are already charter flights in this route nowadays [yesterday one MUC-GIG arrived - probably in 763]. So, VARIG would only turn it into regular. This charter might be testing demand.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
One interesting information is that while DL uses the B763ER to both GRU and GIG, GIG was sloted with an ex-Gulf Air B763ER with a different configuration on business class (C: 6 x 5 = 30 seats), while the two daily GRU flights B763ER get the standard DL configuration on business (C: 6 x 6 = 36 seats).

Hardi, the plane used on GIG-ATL is the same as GRU-ATL with 36C seats. If you take a look on the system it will show you 36C seats. During december they will use a 30C aircraft on GIG (not a smart decision IMO and it was taken before the service begins) but i think probably they will upgrade again GIG-ATL.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 18):
VARIG did succeed in GIG-CDG. Aircraft shortage was the reason for axing this route, on behalf of other routes with this 763 used to CDG.

That's right. GIG-CDG was a success. RG drop the route due to aircraft shortage (runs with 767-300ER).

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Too optimistic the above new routes....especially for an airline in such deep problems are RG. It seems very crazy to open routes such as GIG-MUC, GIG-JFK, GIG-CDG - some of them RG has tried before and failed, notably GIG-CDG. I dont think RG will effect these routes.

Varig is the biggest airline in Rio, also see the success of FRA (RG best route) and EZE flights. The only route in which i can agree with you Hardi, it's GIG-JFK. All the others keep strong demand during the high season. MUC in fact will be started in Rio three times per week (GIG-GRU-MUC), but Varig keep a charter which has been doing very good (yesterday RG9510 takes 218 pax). Even the JFK flight was a daily-light, without a strong marketing effort from RG. Let's see the developments, the non-stop increase in Rio has been announced last week by RG president.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
Hardi, the plane used on GIG-ATL is the same as GRU-ATL with 36C seats. If you take a look on the system it will show you 36C seats. During december they will use a 30C aircraft on GIG (not a smart decision IMO and it was taken before the service begins) but i think probably they will upgrade again GIG-ATL.

They will keep rotating the 30C ex-Gulf Air in GIG even after December and it will become more frequent after February. The whole of December is sloted with the 30C aircraft to GIG. GRU only gets the 36C configuration.

During many days in December DL is overbooked on C, so I guess they could have interchanged the a/c with one of the 36C B763s operating to GRU. But I assume they dont want to "touch" their premium market in GRU. Which makes sense.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
Let's see the developments, the non-stop increase in Rio has been announced last week by RG president.

I still have my doubts, RG needs to be very conservative in any "new" flights. To be honest, RG's main task is to keep flying to its current destinations.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
I still have my doubts, RG needs to be very conservative in any "new" flights. To be honest, RG's main task is to keep flying to its current destinations.

Your sentence seems to be perfect. But they are also trying to use all the fleet during the high season. Varig keep 3 widebodies on ground and probably will receive another one ex-United.
Varig need only 2 widebodies to put MIA and MAD back to normal. So they will have 2 aircrafts available without route assigned (the additional service to MIA and JFK will use the same aircrafts nowadays in use).

The question is that with 15 aircrafts on ground, and when those aircrafts could be used on the network again, RG knows they need to recover the market lost in the past. Increase the service at GRU for example, like RG president says, will put RG to compete against other airlines. At Rio, they will keep market, less competition and it's the bigest Varig's Market.

Tmrw, Varig will run a nonstop GIG-MXP (without stop at GRU, and the flight is full on F and Y, with little availability of seats on C). Varig good sources says that Varig is looking with big eyes to Rio.

Regards
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:35 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Tmrw, Varig will run a nonstop GIG-MXP (without stop at GRU, and the flight is full on F and Y, with little availability of seats on C). Varig good sources says that Varig is looking with big eyes to Rio

Flights to MXP are always full. Is this flight in addition to the GRU-MXP? I think a 3 x week GIG-MXP would work quite well given the level of Italian investment in Rio de Janeiro over recent years. (e.g. Michelin is just expanding in tires fcatority in Rio; Italy also has huge investments in the Telecom business in Rio).

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
Varig is the biggest airline in Rio, also see the success of FRA (RG best route) and EZE flights

I thought RG downgraded GIG-EZE to one-class service - but maybe because of lack of aircraft.

Going back to the Delta subject, I'm interested in more details about the ex-Gulf Air B763s in DL network. How many are them in total? Why are the configurated with 6 x 5 on business class while DL in general keeps the 6 x 6 configuration?

Rgs,
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:43 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
Going back to the Delta subject, I'm interested in more details about the ex-Gulf Air B763s in DL network. How many are them in total? Why are the configurated with 6 x 5 on business class while DL in general keeps the 6 x 6 configuration?

There are a total of 6 ex-Gulf Air 763s (ships 1501-1506) at Delta and 1 ex-Asiana 763 (originally intended for CO, then to OZ) (ship 1521; N394DL) that have the 30 Business seats configuration. The usual DL 763ERs have two emergency exits with one main boarding door in front; the ex-GF/OZ 763ERs have two main boarding doors in front (like the 757s) and one emergency exit over the wing. The space between the first and second boarding doors only allows them to fit five rows of Business seats (with the 60" pitch) and it doesn't make sense to just have one more row (to make it a total of 36 seats) by itself after the galley/2nd boarding door.
 
Neo
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Tmrw, Varig will run a nonstop GIG-MXP (without stop at GRU, and the flight is full on F and Y, with little availability of seats on C). Varig good sources says that Varig is looking with big eyes to Rio.

I think there is a great opportunity for RG to develop their network around GIG, where they don't have too competition like in GRU. I'm not saying that RG should forget about GRU, but focus more on GIG for future intl growth.

Regarding DL, the next step should be lauching a brazilian website like AA and UA already have.

Rgs,

Neo
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
Flights to MXP are always full. Is this flight in addition to the GRU-MXP?

Just a "test" as per RG sources. But also due to a big number of pax from Rio.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
I think a 3 x week GIG-MXP would work quite well given the level of Italian investment in Rio de Janeiro over recent years. (e.g. Michelin is just expanding in tires fcatority in Rio; Italy also has huge investments in the Telecom business in Rio).

I agree with you, but i don't think they will include MXP in the routes to/from GIG non stop. A little correction, Michelin is from France (World HQ at Clermont-Ferrand) not Italy. But Rio keeps good investments from Telecom Italia (Latin America HQ, TIM Brazil) as well as ENI Oil/Agip Group. The steel company Danielli do Brasil keep it's HQ in Brazil and they probably will build a 4 mm ton/year facility in Brazil very soon.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
I thought RG downgraded GIG-EZE to one-class service - but maybe because of lack of aircraft.

Varig keep using 738 with two classes. They will upgrade the other flight from 733 to 734 with two classes due to higher demand on Nov 16. Flights GIG-EZE keeps 90 to 100% loads. A 3 or 4 additional seasonal frequencies are under studies.

Quoting Neo (Reply 24):
I think there is a great opportunity for RG to develop their network around GIG, where they don't have too competition like in GRU. I'm not saying that RG should forget about GRU, but focus more on GIG for future intl growth.

Yes Neo, and it's an alternative to keep strong at VIX and CNF, both markets nowadays on JJ and G3 hands. With international flights from GIG they could take some customers back.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 1):
Nice to know that this route is successful. On the other hand, ATL to SDQ begins Dec 1 and is doing very poorly. Already downgraded from a 763 to a 757. Except for Christmas and NewYears, (which go back to the 763) the flights are mostly empty.

ATL-SDQ-ATL is a route for a B737-800, except for Xmas and New Year.

Quoting Aces727 (Reply 4):
I know many people from Panama and Bogota that travel on Delta because they offer better connections to Europe and smaller US citites.

ATL may be a better airport to connect than EWR, but still CO @ EWR offer far more connecting possibilities to Europe than DL

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
In fact the bilateral Brazil-US allow a lot of 5th freedom (and that's why AA flies GRU-ASU), as well as Brazilian airlines can use also the 5th freedom to continue flights to Japan and Canada among other places that i forget.
Yes , i agree that they could introduce a tag to MVD to use their planes (for example).

I don't know how would be the loads for a ATL-GRU-MVD-GRU-ATL, but traffic @ MVD is experiencing a growth and I think it could be fairly easy for DL to get rights to fly into Uruguay. Maybe MVD could be a tag-on the ATL-GRU-ATL with the weaker loads?

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 15):
Cool, didn't know that. Guess it's time for DL to both increase aircraft utilization and add some currently unserved destinations, or perhaps even do GRU-EZE, since they can't add any flights there, just as an idea.

DL can't fly to Argentina with the current US-Argentina bilateral, I belive all the slots for US airlines are taken by UA, AA and CO.
What I would like to see is a daytime GRU-CPT-GRU tag-on, to offer Skyteam service between Southamerica and Africa; toobad DL most likely would need a MD11 or B747 for that route.. I think ETOPS with B767 would make it longer than the usual.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
There are a total of 6 ex-Gulf Air 763s (ships 1501-1506) at Delta and 1 ex-Asiana 763 (originally intended for CO, then to OZ) (ship 1521; N394DL) that have the 30 Business seats configuration

Thanks for the very complete explanation on DL's 30C B763s. Very interesting.

Quoting Neo (Reply 24):
Regarding DL, the next step should be lauching a brazilian website like AA and UA already have.

Agree.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
A little correction, Michelin is from France (World HQ at Clermont-Ferrand) not Italy

Of course, sorry for the mistake. I thought of Pirelli, based in MXP, but which has one of its biggest overseas operations in Brazil (in GRU not GIG anyway...)

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
Varig keep using 738 with two classes. They will upgrade the other flight from 733 to 734 with two classes due to higher demand

I think EZE-GIG would easily handle a wide-body during the high season. I think AR sometimes uses a widebody on EZE-GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
a) Rio is the only O&D market to Atlanta in Brazil (Coca-Cola and CNN)

I think GRU keeps substantive business with ATL/Georgia as well. Bell South, UPS, Russell Atletic are clear examples of companies which generate substantive O&D ATL-GRU.

Interesting enough, ATL is the US's 3rd top city with the most Fortune 500 Headquarters (after NYC and IAH only!). If you go through the list of ATL-based Fortune 500 companies you will note that many of them run business/trade in the GRU area which leads me to think that the O&D demand (both cargo and pax) GRU-ATL is easily superior ATL-GIG.

http://www.atlantasmartcity.com/i/work/Fortune500April2003.pdf

Rgs,
 
HALFA
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:24 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:21 am

Delta's entrance into the GIG market has already had a dramatic effect on prices to GIG. I was able to fly HNL-GIG roundtrip for $727.00+taxes and fees, but that is the cheapest I have ever paid for such a long trip. I noticed just last week that DL had a DFW-GIG-DFW fare of $359.00 Roundtrip +taxes and fees.
On a different note, I flew UA last week from GIG-GRU-IAD and while in GRU, I noticed the departure screen listed another UA GRU-IAD flight after the one I was traveling on. Is UA doing twice daily GRU-IAD now? When did this start? I would think they would be better off doing one daily GIG-IAD and one GRU-IAD if that's the case. Unless UA will start serving the US with nonstops from GIG soon, I will probably change my allegiance away from the Star Alliance carriers as the down time in GRU is just too long.
32 hours to HNL from GIG is really starting to be a pain.

Aloha,
HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 26):
DL can't fly to Argentina with the current US-Argentina bilateral, I belive all the slots for US airlines are taken by UA, AA and CO.

Delta can and does fly to Argentina- they have 7 weekly flights from ATL-EZE. They had wanted to add another seven to go from JFK-EZE, however those slots were awarded to CO for their EWR-IAH-EZE service.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 28):
Is UA doing twice daily GRU-IAD now?

Hi Halfa, sorry about the chopp at Rio ! Sure i will see you in the future at Rio.
Yes, UA keep nowadays double daily flight GRU-IAD (we just start a topic concerning to the bad results of this flight).

Quoting HALFA (Reply 28):
When did this start?

Effective November 1st

Quoting HALFA (Reply 28):
I would think they would be better off doing one daily GIG-IAD and one GRU-IAD if that's the case. Unless UA will start serving the US with nonstops from GIG soon, I will probably change my allegiance away from the Star Alliance carriers as the down time in GRU is just too long.

I agree 200%. Also GRU is unconfortable (unless you use a vip lounge). Numbers for the second GRU-IAD are just terrible (less than 40 pax per day)
Varig is improving service to GIG, will offer more nonstop on january (probably), so i believe UA will change this second flight next year.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 26):
I don't know how would be the loads for a ATL-GRU-MVD-GRU-ATL, but traffic @ MVD is experiencing a growth and I think it could be fairly easy for DL to get rights to fly into Uruguay. Maybe MVD could be a tag-on the ATL-GRU-ATL with the weaker loads?

Could be any of the two routes as the objective will be MVD. Also, they could use GOL's flight GIG-MVD, to be started later this year. Delta probably will use Gol's code-share for domestic flights to/from GIG, as well as some int'l routes like MVD, COR and ROS.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:17 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 26):
What I would like to see is a daytime GRU-CPT-GRU tag-on, to offer Skyteam service between Southamerica and Africa; toobad DL most likely would need a MD11 or B747 for that route.. I think ETOPS with B767 would make it longer than the usual.

Flights to CPT would be impossible with anything less than ETOPS 240, which I doubt DL (or anyone?) has. With DL were to have ETOPS 207 certification, they could at least operate GIG-JNB, and also GRU-JNB, albeit with a slight detour, as the most direct flight would be just outside ETOPS207.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 26):
DL can't fly to Argentina with the current US-Argentina bilateral, I belive all the slots for US airlines are taken by UA, AA and CO.

Too bad, didn't know the bilateral also applied for 5th freedom routes.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 26):
I don't know how would be the loads for a ATL-GRU-MVD-GRU-ATL, but traffic @ MVD is experiencing a growth and I think it could be fairly easy for DL to get rights to fly into Uruguay. Maybe MVD could be a tag-on the ATL-GRU-ATL with the weaker loads?

If DL were to do that, they could probably plan trips so that the GRU-ATL flight will be filled with GRU-based pax first and only then start to fill up the MVD-GRU-ATL flights. Very simplistic thinking on my part of course. Then of course, if DL upgrades at least one flight to a 764, it might make things even easier.
Also, I hope that DL's cooperation with GOL soon becomes a reality.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:54 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 30):
UA keep nowadays double daily flight GRU-IAD (we just start a topic concerning to the bad results of this flight).

It is important to highlight, however, that UA's daily GRU-IAD had EXCEPTIONAL results during the whole year 2005 with loads above 90% for almost every day. In one way or another, UA would have to expand either with an additional daily B763 or by introducing the B777 with more capacity. Also, UA had one dormant position to Brazil and by introducing an extra daily IAD-GRU it therefore keeps its rights for this position.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 30):
Numbers for the second GRU-IAD are just terrible (less than 40 pax per day)

From the info I have, for many days UA's IAD-GRU have shown more than 100 pax on board. Ahead bookings are also showing better loads.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 31):
If DL were to do that, they could probably plan trips so that the GRU-ATL flight will be filled with GRU-based pax first and only then start to fill up the MVD-GRU-ATL flights. Very simplistic thinking on my part of course. Then of course, if DL upgrades at least one flight to a 764, it might make things even easier.

Interesting.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
a) Rio is the only O&D market to Atlanta in Brazil (Coca-Cola and CNN)

As explained above, as per my estimates, GRU-ATL does keep much more O&D than ATL-GIG. Another clear example was that ATL-based Wachovia Corp. completed its acquisition of Banco Portugues do Atlantico-Brasil S.A., an $80 million-asset bank based in GRU. The bank was renamed Banco Wachovia S.A. Business and trade between ATL and GRU is strong and growing.

My question remains about DL current level of reliability with a possible pilot strike. DL situation is very fragile and one would avoid ahead bookings. DL's demise would have a a major impact on ATL's economy. A study made some years ago concluded that DL generates about 5% of Georgia's GDP, or from $7.5 billion to $10 billion.

Rgs,
 
Neo
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
Yes Neo, and it's an alternative to keep strong at VIX and CNF, both markets nowadays on JJ and G3 hands. With international flights from GIG they could take some customers back.

It definetly is! Take myself for example.. I'm going to LUX in April, but should stop first in CDG in the way. RG (2 daily to CGH) only offer conection through SAO with the need of changing airports CGH/GRU. JJ in the other hand (7 daily to SAO) offers direct conections thru GRU.

This example goes for other intl destinations too... RG usually offers the worst conections (in some cases the only one).

Is AF and G3 codeshare effective already? It would be great if I could connect thru GIG with AF/G3. GIG needs more intl flights (specially from brazilian carriers) in order to provide more and better options not only for VIX and CNF, but also to allow people from other parts of Brazil like NE, South and N to escape from SAO airports. DL is very welcomed in GIG and it opens up a great variety of destinations to be reached through their worldwide hub in ATL. Now let's hope the codeshare between G3 and DL starts soon... this will improve even further the results in GIG.

Rgs,

Neo
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
As explained above, as per my estimates, GRU-ATL does keep much more O&D than ATL-GIG

Hardi, the only corporates from Atlanta with operations in Brazil are UPS, Coca-Cola, Newell, Georgia-Pacific and AGCO. Coca-Cola is by far the biggest operation, UPS is a 200MM business. Newell was established in 2003 as a 50MM plant, Georgia-Pacific keep a chemical plant near CPQ and AGCO is established at POA with a 1 Billion business. BellSouth sold its shares on BCP Cellphone company a couple of years ago to Telmex.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
Another clear example was that ATL-based Wachovia Corp. completed its acquisition of Banco Portugues do Atlantico-Brasil S.A., an $80 million-asset bank based in GRU

Wachovia is the result of a merger between First Union National Bank and Wachovia Bank (they keep Wachovia brand as it's most valuable). Wachovia bought SunTrust but keep it's HQ at Charlotte, North Carolina. It's not from Atlanta.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
From the info I have, for many days UA's IAD-GRU have shown more than 100 pax on board. Ahead bookings are also showing better loads.

I will check this, but as far as i know yields and loads keeps poor.

Also, another info, one GRU-MIA has been cancelled yesterday (AA906), does any one has info on this ?

Quoting Neo (Reply 33):
Is AF and G3 codeshare effective already?

Not yet Neo, but the last info i get from this, was that Gol joined Amadeus and both are making changes on their systems to allow the code-share.

Quoting Neo (Reply 33):
DL is very welcomed in GIG and it opens up a great variety of destinations to be reached through their worldwide hub in ATL. Now let's hope the codeshare between G3 and DL starts soon... this will improve even further the results in GIG.

I can say, your words are my words!

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
It is important to highlight, however, that UA's daily GRU-IAD had EXCEPTIONAL results during the whole year 2005 with loads above 90% for almost every day. In one way or another, UA would have to expand either with an additional daily B763 or by introducing the B777 with more capacity. Also, UA had one dormant position to Brazil and by introducing an extra daily IAD-GRU it therefore keeps its rights for this position

Perfect Hardi, thanks for the highlight.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):
My question remains about DL current level of reliability with a possible pilot strike

True, they post a major loss for Quarter 3. Wish they can keep costs in a way to boost results.

Felipe

[Edited 2005-11-15 15:50:41]
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 31):
Flights to CPT would be impossible with anything less than ETOPS 240, which I doubt SA)">DL (or anyone?) has. With SA)">DL were to have ETOPS 207 certification, they could at least operate GIG-JNB, and also GRU-JNB, albeit with a slight detour, as the most direct flight would be just outside ETOPS207.

SA flies GRU-CPT-JNB with A340, don't know what route they take since sure is outside ETOPS207. However the ETOPS Brazil-Southern Africa situation could change whenever an airport is open on St Helena Island, which according to news in the internet could be in a couple of years.
Anyhow, for US airlines, the 5th right for Brazil-Southafrica flights is held by UA which they got with Pan Am old southamerican routes, if they want it, other US airlines (like DL) want it, they'll have to get it from UA.

[Edited 2005-11-15 15:50:13]
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 35):

SA flies GRU-CPT-JNB with A340, don't know what route they take since sure is outside ETOPS207.

No CPT stop. I think it actually connects directly to BKK... or somewhere else I can't remember right now.

And the A340 has no ETOPS restrictions.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
No CPT stop. I think it actually connects directly to BKK... or somewhere else I can't remember right now.

I remember seeing that SA had one of the daily GRU-JNB stop in CPT. Don't know if they do it anymore.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 37):
I remember seeing that SA had one of the daily GRU-JNB stop in CPT. Don't know if they do it anymore

In fact it was when RG runs a weekly frequency GIG-GRU-CPT-JNB with M11, also without ETOPS restrictions.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: DL ATL-GIG A Success, So Far

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 34):
Hardi, the only corporates from Atlanta with operations in Brazil

Lipe, I meant business - corporations without actual office in GRU have to perform a lot of trade-related business travel; in fact, GRU attracts a lot of this profile of business trip. As I highlighted above, ATL is a major city with Fortune 500 companies, and we can therefore assume that they do run business in Sao Paulo area. (see reply 27).

Again, it would be interesting to see the break-down of DL's ATL-GRU flight to see the percentage of O&D pax - the rest is speculation!

Rgs,