jetbluefan1
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B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:37 am

http://www.jetblue.com/specialoffers/sale.asp

Two or more people traveling together can travel on a transcon flight for $59 each and to Florida for $39 each.

I really don't get this. Why are the fares so amazingly low? Sure, the sale fare must be booked by Nov. 21 and travel completed from Nov. 30-Feb. 15, but isn't JetBlue going to lose money from this? I'm sure this'll spark demand. I sincerely hope B6 knows what they're doing. I'm sure they know what's going to happen but maybe I don't see it.

Perhaps a strike against DL?

Your thoughts?

JetBluefan1
 
luv2fly
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:46 am

Except for the Holiday period during this time, this time period has very light loads to say the least.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:53 am

Hopefully it will work and I have a feeling it might. They know what they are doing so hopefully it is a smart move in the long run.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
Evan767
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:00 am

This is absolutely ridiculous. I would have never expected that you can get an airline ticket which is about 15x faster than a bus ticket or train ticket cheaper! This really pisses me off. Delta, American, and United will hurt from this greatly. Why were LCC's ever started?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 3):
Delta, American, and United will hurt from this greatly. Why were LCC's ever started?

This shouldn't piss you off. In the business world, the strongest prevails. JetBlue, which has lower costs than the legacy carriers, will prevail in this case.

LCC's were started in order to 1.) lower fares and; 2.) increase traffic, and, ultimately; 3.) make money. Simple as that.

JetBluefan1
 
Evan767
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 4):
LCC's were started in order to 1.) lower fares and; 2.) increase traffic, and, ultimately; 3.) make money. Simple as that.

And to crush Legacies
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
sspontak
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 3):
Why were LCC's ever started?

The LCC's were started because of their very low costs and they can charge low fares. The problem is that these LCC's free loaded on the hard work of the legacy carriers. These pioneer legacy carriers worked decade after decade to develop the systems and infrastructures that has made our current airline system so great. The legacies incurred tremendous costs (including high labor) to support and maintain these systems and infrastructures. The LCC's have standard and efficient low cost operations that can support these low fares and this is certainly great for the traveling public but disasterous for the legacy carriers.

I always see people saying how unfair it is that the legacies can go into BK to reorganize to try to get on an even playing field with the LCC's. But how fair is it that the LCC's are allowed to swoop in with their low costs and cannabalize the airline industry. This is a vicious cycle that must be allowed to happen if businesses like Jet Blue are allowed to commence and exist.

I'm not sure if this is fair or unfair free enterprise but I guess this depends on which side of the airline industry you are on. Either way, I would imagine this is the best way to protect as many people as possible and to keep the airline business moving in the right direction.
Go Delta!
 
CLEfan
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 4):
This shouldn't piss you off. In the business world, the strongest prevails. JetBlue, which has lower costs than the legacy carriers, will prevail in this case.

They might have low costs, but B6's costs are not so low that they could make money charging fares of $0.024 a mile on JFK-LGB or $0.032 a mile on BOS-FLL. The goal with for this price is not make money, its just to put butts into seats that otherwise would have flown empty. What we really know is how many seats are being sold at this price. If it only a few seats a day, then no real biggie. But if they have all the seats or a majority of the seats at this price, they are probably bleeding money. Even though B6 has low CASM, its not low enough to make money on these fares.
 
stlgph
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):

I really don't get this. Why are the fares so amazingly low?

when you said, "I'm sure this will spark demand," you answered your own question right there.

just basically JetBlue getting some buzz about their route offerings. not only that, but when they go to the website to book their holiday travel flights, while they might not find the fare they are looking for, they'll already be at the website and see what fares *ARE* being listed and perhaps go ahead and book anyway because they still find it to be a good deal.

free advertising is always the best.

[Edited 2005-11-12 18:46:06]
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
InTheSky74
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:48 am

While I think that this fare sale is going to spark demand, I hope that they severely limited the days / flights to the ones that need bodies in seats.  Smile

It makes more sense than the Spirit $9 fare sale - that's just yelling "we're going out of business soon".

Rob
 
Alitalia744
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 4):
This shouldn't piss you off. In the business world, the strongest prevails. JetBlue, which has lower costs than the legacy carriers, will prevail in this case.

LCC's were started in order to 1.) lower fares and; 2.) increase traffic, and, ultimately; 3.) make money. Simple as that.

JetBluefan1

yes, but jetBlue's costs will continue to rise as they've seen recently. Just be prepared JB1 - the media's little darling may be singing the 'blues' as well soon.

For the legacy-supporters, I'll be having champagne at my apartment on that day!
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
MAH4546
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 1):
Except for the Holiday period during this time, this time period has very light loads to say the least.

Not Boston-South Florida. Demand in that market peaks in late February, not even near Christmas.

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 9):

It makes more sense than the Spirit $9 fare sale - that's just yelling "we're going out of business soon".

Haha. Okay, whatever you say. It's a simple fare sale, and the amount of $9 fares available was incredibly minimal. Spirit isn't going anywhere. Anybody remember Spirit's 9/11/02 sale? Every ticket was free. An expensive promotion, but like the $9 fares, it gets the word out very fast. The money an airline loses in running ridiculous sales like a $9 fare sale is usually more than made up for in the free advertising they get. Newspapers nationwide published blurbs "Spirit Airlines sells $9 tickets to the Caribbean". Not only did this give Spirit name recognition, but it got people to say "hey, this airline is now flying to the Caribbean". The amount of money they lost selling those fares is probably less than the amount of placement they got in periodicals and other news sources:

South Florida Sun-Sentinel:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business...655.story?coll=sfla-business-front

Fort Worth Star Telegraph:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/13146111.htm

KSL TV Salt Lake City (where Spirit doesn't even fly!):
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=172&sid=124145

And that is just three examples. Some people don't realize that fare sales often times have a second purpose, and that selling cheap fares not only get passengers in seats to experience the product and perhaps return in the future, but it is usually cheaper to sell $9 seats than take out ads in a newspaper.
a.
 
N1120A
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
And to crush Legacies

Funny how the legacies lived, thrived and turned record profits with Southwest as a major force. Additionally, carriers like PSA, AirCal, America West, Morris Air, etc. all flew in competition with legacy carriers.

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 6):
The problem is that these LCC's free loaded on the hard work of the legacy carriers.

Excuse me? The legacies free loaded on the frozen fares of the regulated era that were anti-consumer and anti-business all at the same time. LCCs built themselves up from nothing and thrived even when legacies practiced anti-competitive business.

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 6):
These pioneer legacy carriers worked decade after decade to develop the systems and infrastructures that has made our current airline system so great.

You think the legacy carriers did that? It was the US Government who did most of the infrastructure building, particularly during WWII, along with local flying clubs, municipalities, private individuals, etc. In fact, the closest you get to airlines developing infrastructure are airports like BUR that were built to support aircraft manufacturers

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 6):
The legacies incurred tremendous costs (including high labor)

Southwest pays their employees more than the legacies

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 9):
It makes more sense than the Spirit $9 fare sale - that's just yelling "we're going out of business soon".

Spirit, as a private company, does not have to report earnings publically, but all indications point to them being profitable

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
And that is just three examples. Some people don't realize that fare sales often times have a second purpose, and that selling cheap fares not only get passengers in seats to experience the product and perhaps return in the future, but it is usually cheaper to sell $9 seats than take out ads in a newspaper.

See everyone, listen to Mark. Not only did Spirit generate its own publicity while filling seats that would go unfilled, they also got free news coverage that they would have otherwise had to pay for.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
aa757first
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 3):
Why were LCC's ever started?

To make money. Why every business is started.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
And to crush Legacies

Oh, yes. A bunch of people spent two and three years getting their airline in the air because one time American lost their luggage.  Yeah sure

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 6):
The problem is that these LCC's free loaded on the hard work of the legacy carriers.

Please give examples.

AAndrew
 
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mariner
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 9):
It makes more sense than the Spirit $9 fare sale - that's just yelling "we're going out of business soon".

Gosh, Ryanair is giving away 2 million seats for free.

But I don't think they're going out of business soon.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
CRJ900
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:52 am

Ryanair, easyJet, Sterling and other Euro-LCCs make quite a lot of money by having all their refreshments for sale only, incl coffee, tea and still water, while US LCCs offer hot and cold beverages and snacks for free (or included in the ticket)...

Do US LCCs consider the cost of offering these refreshments so low that it's worth it or will we see an end to free refreshments on US carriers as well?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
sspontak
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Excuse me? The legacies free loaded on the frozen fares of the regulated era that were anti-consumer and anti-business all at the same time. LCCs built themselves up from nothing and thrived even when legacies practiced anti-competitive business.

It was the government that regulated the fares, not the airlines. The airlines lobbied for deregulation which benefited the airlines and the public. That was almost 30 years ago, a long time before the new generation LCC popped up.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
You think the legacy carriers did that? It was the US Government who did most of the infrastructure building, particularly during WWII, along with local flying clubs, municipalities, private individuals, etc. In fact, the closest you get to airlines developing infrastructure are airports like BUR that were built to support aircraft manufacturers

The legaciers did contribute their fair share to these projects along with their participation (and financially) in research and development and technology. These LCC's certainly have gotten a free ride which is absolutely understandable but gives them an unfair advantage. That is why the legacies need the ability to re-organize to be competitive whether in BK or not.

It should be interesting to see the LCC's cost rise as they expand with different fleets and the employees want their fair share of the pie as the legacy costs go down.
Go Delta!
 
sspontak
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 13):
Quoting Sspontak (Reply 6):
The problem is that these LCC's free loaded on the hard work of the legacy carriers.

Please give examples.

AAndrew

Participation with aircraft development and facility development
Participation in all airline related technologies including air traffic control
Lobbying and pioneering with opening up the world in the development of passenger, airmail and international routes

Don't fool yourself to think that the government did it all without the huge support of the legacy airlines.

You might want to read up on airline history. Incredibly interesting and you might have a new respect for the legacies and understand why they just won't go away without a fight.
Go Delta!
 
b6sea
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
For the legacy-supporters, I'll be having champagne at my apartment on that day!

Seriously, how can you say that. I mean, we aren't talking about Southwest or EasyJet or Ryanair (of which I am not a supporter of)... This is JetBlue, they arent selling the same old seats for lower prices. They have been a majour innovator and sparked majour changes in the industry in just 5 short years (see: song and soon Delta transcons, ptvs on Frontier, ptvs on WestJet) arguably, without B6 none of this would have happened. And then we'd be sitting in the same old boring seat twiddiling our thumbs for five hours on our transcon until we arrived. Whether or not you want to admit it B6 has been a huge positive force in the industry and I think ultimately made the legacies think about customer service for once. Morale: don't wish failure to someone who clearly has a better product but instead wish failure to those who think it's okay to treat their passengers like cattle.

-Chans
 
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mariner
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 17):
Lobbying and pioneering with opening up the world in the development of passenger, airmail and international routes

Most of that was done by Pan Am.

And it wasn't LCC's that killed Pan AM - they did that all on their ownsome.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
luv2fly
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 3):
This is absolutely ridiculous. I would have never expected that you can get an airline ticket which is about 15x faster than a bus ticket or train ticket cheaper! This really pisses me off. Delta, American, and United will hurt from this greatly. Why were LCC's ever started?

No one said that the so called legacy carriers have to match any fare sale being offered.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
And to crush Legacies

No to be a successful business.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
yes, but jetBlue's costs will continue to rise as they've seen recently. Just be prepared JB1 - the media's little darling may be singing the 'blues' as well soon.

Yes they will, and yes they have planned for it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Not Boston-South Florida. Demand in that market peaks in late February, not even near Christmas.

I am sure if the demand was so great then this route would not have been included in the fare sale.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
incitatus
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
LCCs built themselves up from nothing and thrived even when legacies practiced anti-competitive business.

Can you please clarify what "practice anti-competitive business" is and how it is different from practicing pro-competitive business.
Stop pop up ads
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:53 am

It's a sale. Created to generate interest in the Jetblue product. Obviously these fares are below cost.

Look at Ryanair offering "free" seats throughout Europe. It's to generate interest.

It's ridicilous to charge less than it costs for the service. But it's the nature of the beast these days.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
yes, but jetBlue's costs will continue to rise as they've seen recently. Just be prepared JB1 - the media's little darling may be singing the 'blues' as well soon.

For the legacy-supporters, I'll be having champagne at my apartment on that day!

Ah yes, the daily "JetBlue will be dead very soon" post.

You're forgetting that 4 out of 6 of our country's legacy carriers are currently in bankruptcy, using our tax dollars for their faults and screwing over their creditors.

As far as the fare sale, I've decided that it's a good idea. It once again sparks some buzz around JetBlue and it's during the slowest time of the year.

JetBluefan1
 
iowaman
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting CLEfan (Reply 7):
They might have low costs, but B6's costs are not so low that they could make money charging fares of $0.024 a mile on JFK-LGB or $0.032 a mile on BOS-FLL. The goal with for this price is not make money,

Not all of those seats are going to be sold for $59 or $39 one way.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 23):
As far as the fare sale, I've decided that it's a good idea. It once again sparks some buzz around JetBlue and it's during the slowest time of the year.

 checkmark 

LCC's have made it affordable for many more americans to fly. I don't see how you can hate the LCC's, when

1. They offer lower fares 95% of the time
2. They pay there employees (WN is a good example) as good if not better than the legacies.
and 3. They offer as much if not more than most the legacies (FL with XM, B6 with XM and PTV's, WN with free peanuts/sodas and snack packs on longer flights with a generous seat pitch).
 
nkops
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 9):
It makes more sense than the Spirit $9 fare sale - that's just yelling "we're going out of business soon".

Whatever!!! Like MAH4546 said, it is merely a marketing tool to get name recognition out, it's not like all seats were $9.. It obviously worked since it overloaded the website, and we got recognition in cities we don't even fly close too.

Besides, if we go out of business, it won't be the first time for me anyway.... but I don't think we will.
:evil:
 
jumbojet
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 24):
LCC's have made it affordable for many more americans to fly. I don't see how you can hate the LCC's, when

I dont care how cheap the fare is, i wont fly a LCC. my choice is to fly Delta metal even if it means paying more for the ticket. There are many, many reasons. One of the more popular is being able to get to my destination in the event of a MX problem and even more important then that, the experiene of the legacies is 2nd to none.

Friends of mine flew a LCC NYC to LAS and because of MX probs and the inability to rebook on another airline, it took them nearly 18 hours to get to their destination. They had them fly from city to city to city until they got to LAS.

Last month I gave in and flew a free trip on JetBlue. Wasn't impressed, especially at one of the female flight attendants who refused to help this elderly lady place her carry on in the overhead bin. It wasn;t that heavy. It's the overall lack of experience of the JetBlue's that I dont like. I dont wish them out of business, but I won't fly them again.
 
ikramerica
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
Most of that was done by Pan Am.

No, some was. Not most.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 22):
It's a sale. Created to generate interest in the Jetblue product. Obviously these fares are below cost.

Obviously. Just like when a car is given away by a dealership or a free ipod every hour or some other promotion by a big retailer.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 23):
using our tax dollars for their faults and screwing over their creditors.

it doesn't use tax dollars to pay off creditors. BK doesn't take your tax money and give it to anyone.

as 'screwing over creditors' goes, creditors are IN THE BUSINESS of extending credit, and credit is a RISK/REWARD business where you must pay a PREMIUM to get that credit and that premium is based on the RISK you pose to the lender (why EK can get low rates), and they have determined that it is WORTH THE RISK to give you credit.

Thus, if you go into BK, and they don't get all their money back, the creditors should not be cried for. It is their BUSINESS. And they will often figure out if it is WORTH THE RISK to extend you MORE CREDIT to get you out of BK so that you can pay them back.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 24):
1. They offer lower fares 95% of the time

Not true. They offer lower WALK UP fares most of the time, but not lower fares in general if your dates are at all flexible or not right away.

I personally don't do Walk-up travel, so the LCCs so far have yet to offer me a fare lower than I can find on legacies for the dates I want to fly in the future, and I do check.

Except WN. I won't fly WN out of LAX if you paid me, as the security situation there is ridiculous.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 24):
2. They pay there employees (WN is a good example) as good if not better than the legacies.

Not true. WN is pretty much the only example. Which is not to say that they are wrong in paying what an employee is worth versus what they demand, but just pointing it out.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 24):
3. They offer as much if not more than most the legacies (FL with XM, B6 with XM and PTV's, WN with free peanuts/sodas and snack packs on longer flights with a generous seat pitch).

Not true. Or better, selectively deciding what is equivalent.

XM radio as the only IFE is as good as a movie or two and 10 "canned" music channels? I guess if you really love radio.

Free snack packs and 32" pitch on a long flight are as good as a movie+sitcom and a hot meal and an assigned seat with 32" pitch? I'll take the latter.

I'd say the only one that really offers comparable in flight service to many of the legacy experience is B6 and F9, depending on the length of flight.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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mariner
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):Most of that was done by Pan Am.
No, some was. Not most.

I repeat, most of that was done by Pan Am. "That" being:

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 17):
Lobbying and pioneering with opening up the world in the development of passenger, airmail and international routes

As far as US airlines are concerned - which is what is under discussion here - Pan Am opened up Asia, Australia, New Zealand, the South Pacific, Russia, the Far East and a great deal of Africa. It was the "chosen instrument".

(i) http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...mercial_Aviation/Pan_Am/Tran12.htm

(ii) "The government further helped Pan Am by insulating it from its American competitors, seeing the airline as the "chosen instrument" for U.S. foreign air routes."

Other airlines came along later - American Overseas, Braniff and NWO, - but the words used were "lobbying and pioneering."

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-11-13 02:23:37]

[Edited 2005-11-13 02:24:40]
aeternum nauta
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting B6sea (Reply 18):
ptvs on Frontier, ptvs on WestJet) arguably, without B6 none of this would have happened

Actually, Legend was the first airline to offer DirectTv. Not jetBlue.

Quoting B6sea (Reply 18):
And then we'd be sitting in the same old boring seat twiddiling our thumbs for five hours on our transcon until we arrived.

Actually, we would probably have a meal.

AAndrew
 
iowaman
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 26):

I dont care how cheap the fare is, i wont fly a LCC. my choice is to fly Delta metal even if it means paying more for the ticket. There are many, many reasons. One of the more popular is being able to get to my destination in the event of a MX problem and even more important then that, the experiene of the legacies is 2nd to none.

Totally your opinion, and I respect that.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
Not true. They offer lower WALK UP fares most of the time, but not lower fares in general if your dates are at all flexible or not right away.

If it wasn't for LCC's fares would be much higher in the first place.
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:51 am

N1120A,
good reply. thanks for helping to set the record straight.
learning never stops.
 
luvfa
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 29):
Actually, we would probably have a meal.

Which everyone would complain about how bad the food was
 
BOS2LAF
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
For the legacy-supporters, I'll be having champagne at my apartment on that day!

Yes, let's celebrate other peoples' demise, because that's the mature thing to do.  Yeah sure
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:45 am

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 8):
free advertising is always the best.

So true. Who ever runs jetblue's PR isn't paid enough.  spin  They seem to get more for their add dollar than anyone else. (Possible exception of Ryanair, but as they don't fly to Los Angeles...) Has this "sale" generated buzz in the intended markets?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):

And it wasn't LCC's that killed Pan AM - they did that all on their ownsome.

Mariner, Did you read "Sky Gods?" It was fascinating how Pan Am opened up the various routes... and then had to split up the company and sell off parts due to a failure to adapt to competition.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 26):
my choice is to fly Delta metal even if it means paying more for the ticket. There are many, many reasons. One of the more popular is being able to get to my destination in the event of a MX problem and even more important then that, the experiene of the legacies is 2nd to none.

Jumbojet, you have come up with one of the best reasons I've ever heard for sticking to a certain airline.  praise  But wouldn't the ability to get to your destination due to an MX issue be fulfilled by any carrier with high frequencies and a decent record? e.g B6 from JFK-FLL? I have to admit, to get to one's destination within an approximation of the correct time is worth a bundle. I know that for some of my travels, the value of knowing that one was going to arrive on time has been worth multiples of the ticket price. (Hence, why I or my company pad the fare.)

Overall, I definitely respect your opinions on what metal you fly.  Smile I would pay more to fly an airline I had more confidence in (from a schedule standpoint and redundancy standpoint). I will also pay more for those airlines that I feel will give me a more pleasant experience. Alas, we would differ on our preferred choices. Since I'm not Platinum anything, that usually means I get better (as in faster) service on other airlines. (e.g., I really dislike airlines that will sell me a ticket, but won't let me select a seat with whomever I'm travelling with due to overbooking or reservations for their "platinums". I'm sure other people have their own pet peeves.)

N1120A, I'll concur, nicely written post.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
John
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:19 pm

When fares go this low...it's usually a sign that there's over capacity and advance bookings absolutely suck.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:24 pm

I don't think that's the case though. JetBlue always has strong bookings for transcon and Floridian flights.

I think that they don't want flights to be 80% full but instead be more around the 90% range. Afterall, with fuel at where it is today, it doesn't make sense to have empty seats.

JetBluefan1
 
jumbojet
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:39 pm

Not to pick on JetBlue, but disapointed with the web experience in that JetBlue doesnt allow you to view seat mappers before you make the purchase. I understand that JetBlue doesnt oversell any of their flights, but I would like the option of choosing my flying times based on the more emptier flights.

I would imagine with these fare sales, most flights will be booked to cpacity and it wouldnt really matter.
 
flytweed
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:08 pm

I really think that some of us are making this bigger than it needs to be. Although JetBlue had their first real tough quarter this past one since having 18 consecutive profiting quarters, they're going to easily pull out of the hardships that plagued every airline this past summer: fuel costs. Many carriers, especially LCC's like B6 and WN, had "locked in" on certain prices, but most of those contracts have expired, forcing them to rely on the ridiculous costs that had consumers paying over $3.20/gallon in some locations, let alone the cost of jet fuel.

I was at B6 headquarters when COO Dave Barger and Director of Flight Operations Dave Bushy were discussing the tough winter routes with senior pilots. The problem is that the loads are extremely low in the coming months on JFK-LGB and BOS-FLL. By lowering the cost for people flying in tandem, they're encouraging two or more seats to be filled and filling them at a lower cost. So, theoretically they're only helping those that travel together, making it easier to fill aircraft on these less profitable routes during the winter months and still potentially making a little bit of money. Keep in mind that B6 is likely to pull some of their A320's from these routes and move them to the more profitable ones during the coming months as well. The new E190's will make it easier to switch between aircraft that may be more profitable at certain times of the year on particular routes.

As far as what B6 and other LCC's are doing to the legacies, in my opinion, they're not necessarily "killing" them or "freeloading off them." I think the LCC's are merely a sign that the legacies really need to fix their model in order to stay in business. Surely some will argue that the hub-and-spoke days are over. While certainly that's a possibility, some legacies may be able to survive under that model if they can merely provide better customer service, a more simplified route structure, and perhaps a more condensed fleet in the sky.

Ultimately in business, you need to have competition to improve on the competition. The LCC's are encouraging the legacies to get their act together. I think some legacies at this point may have their days numbered, but time will certainly tell. But regardless, the legacies that can pull out of bankruptcy and positively change their model should be able to survive in the long run.

Just my two cents...

-Marcus
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting FlyTweed (Reply 38):
The problem is that the loads are extremely low in the coming months on JFK-LGB and BOS-FLL.

Ya sure about these? JFK-LGB has had its capacity reduced in order to meet demand, and loads since the beginning of November have been amazing. Also, BOS-FLL has been booking up pretty nicely the last few weeks and is expecting an additional (E190) flight sometime this winter for a total of 5x daily.

JetBluefan1
 
TransIsland
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:17 pm

And of course, don't forget that you probably won't be able to get these advertised rates........

The campaign offers FLL-DCA for $59 one way, or $39 if you're travelling with company.

So I tried it. On the FLL-DCA leg, I was offered $249 plus tax (an awful lot more than the advertised price), on the way back $49 plus tax (even less than the advertised price. go figure)

Now, I have to go to D.C. in January, but as I am in Nassau, I need a flight from here, and by the time I buy the ticket to FLL, I may as well book on a legacy carrier, though Spirit is looking pretty good, too. (Especially as I am hoping to spend a few hours in FLL on the way).
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
texan
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 16):
It was the government that regulated the fares, not the airlines. The airlines lobbied for deregulation which benefited the airlines and the public. That was almost 30 years ago, a long time before the new generation LCC popped up.

You might want to check up on that in your history book, buddy. The ONLY large airline at the time to support deregulation the whole way through was Frank Lorenzo's Texas Air Group. United came on later and said that it would be acceptable but did not enthusiastically support it. WN supported it strongly, as did AirCal and PSA. Angry Bob Crandall of AA approached Phil Bakes (who would join CO in the near future) after a Congressional hearing on deregulation and said, "You f*****g academic eggheads, you're going to wreck this industry!" Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, AA, and all the other major airlines were completely against deregulating the industry. Deregulation allowed for the LCCs to come into being, although WN, PSA, Air Cal, and Air Florida were already established in their states of Texas, California (x2), and Florida, respectively. What you call "the new generation LCC" actually did not really get going until PeoplExpress took the industry by storm and then tanked only a few years later. It was the experience of watching the PeoplExpresses, the Air Floridas, the PSAs, the Air Cals, that really helped advance the LCC model. Hell, if you want to look at the real culprit of low fares, look no further than AA's Bob Crandall! He was the first to truly introduce yield management into an airline's consciousness. By using the yield management system, he saw that he could match or undercut PeoplExpress' fares in every single market they served. So, in January of 1985 Crandall and AA presented their new plan: every route had fares slashed. By using the power of SABRE, he was able to put aside a specific number of seats on every flight to be sold at a bottom-basement price. While the average AA fare between LGA-DFW might have been $200 OW, there were seats available for as low as $89 OW. This, in reality, is what airlines picked up on in yield management. Crandall used it to destroy PeoplExpress, and Kelleher took Crandall's idea and used it to lower his prices even further, driving AA out of a fair number of markets, especiall in California.

This fare sale is nothing other than making sure that someone is flying in seats that otherwise would most likely have gone out empty. Every airline does this, be it UA, DL, AA, F9, B6, or WN. If you are going to be boycotting the LCCs for this, maybe you better start your boycott where it all started: at AA, UA, DL, and CO.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
iowaman
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting FlyTweed (Reply 38):
The problem is that the loads are extremely low in the coming months on JFK-LGB and BOS-FLL. By lowering the cost for people flying in tandem, they're encouraging two or more seats to be filled and filling them at a lower cost. So, theoretically they're only helping those that travel together, making it easier to fill aircraft on these less profitable routes during the winter months and still potentially making a little bit of money. Keep in mind that B6 is likely to pull some of their A320's from these routes and move them to the more profitable ones during the coming months as well.

Obviously JFK-LGB is not possible with the E190 with a reasonable payload, so I would imagine that route would see a reduction in frequencies. I've noticed JFK-LAS is down to 4x daily, soon down to 3x from 6x this summer.  Sad
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:31 am

The JFK-LAS decrease is just seasonal. Back to 6x in the summer. The flights have been operating amazingly full since the end of the summer, but the yields suck, so I guess they want constant 95% LFs.

JetBluefan1
 
flytweed
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:48 am

JetBlueFan1, you're right. B6 reduces the frequency on these routes because of lower seasonal demand. By saying that the loads are low, I meant with the earlier fall frequency, it was impossible to maintain something profitable. The lower frequency forces heavier loads on those flights. It's no doubt B6 will continue to do well on those routes with a lower frequency.

Iowaman, the E190 wouldn't be profitable, or really sensible, to use on a long-haul flight like JFK-LGB. The A320s on those routes would just be bumped to different routes for the season and the frequency on those routes lowered. I am, however, definitely looking forward to seeing what city pairs we may see in the next 6 months to a year once the E190s start into more regular service. Time will tell!
 
ikramerica
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RE: B6 Sale Fare: $59 JFK-LGB, $39 BOS-FLL...Why?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
As far as US airlines are concerned - which is what is under discussion here - Pan Am opened up Asia, Australia, New Zealand, the South Pacific, Russia, the Far East and a great deal of Africa. It was the "chosen instrument".

But that's only foreign routes! That's not what the whole argument was about.

The claim, originally, was the the legacy majors helped to build the INFRASTRUCTURE within the US, and helped create the aviation market that the LCCs now take advantage of.

Since the LCCs don't fly internationally (except caribbean/mexico right now), I am not seeing how Pan Am is the one who paved their way by opening international routes.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.