abrelosojos
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Delta & Winglets

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:15 pm

Is DL the only major airline not to have any winglets on any of its MAINLINE aircraft fleets? This was my random thought on flight number 54 in 30 days on DL.

-A.
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PIA777
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:16 pm

They had them before on MD-11s. Does UA have them?

PIA777
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SonOfACaptain
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:25 pm

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 1):
Does UA have them?

744, and the A320 family if you want to count them.

-SOAC

[Edited 2005-11-13 07:26:40]
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flynavy
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:14 pm

Delta also flew the A310 which is equipped with them.


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kc135topboom
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:18 pm

DL also had them on a few B-727-200s. But, I thought that they were planning to install them on the B-737-800s.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:23 pm

While not directly winglets per se, DL does have wingtip fences on their 764s. Not the same as winglets, but they serve the same role.
DL currently doesn't have any plans to put any winglets on either of their planes, though in the long term, I would expect winglets to be put on both the 757 and 738, as those will be mostly used for transcon flying and most Latin America flying.
In the past, winglet-equipped planes included the A310s, the MD-11s, and test-wise also 2 727s (N510DL and N511DL IIRC), which were equipped with (Valsan?) winglets for several trials, but in the end DL wasn't satisfied with the results.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
but in the end DL wasn't satisfied with the results.

i read somewhere that the annual savings could be in the hundreds of thousnds of dollars, of course considering the route flown and how many hours the plane is used. Which would of course also save the useage of jet fuel. Prob just another cost DL could do without for now, even with all the savings built in.
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
While not directly winglets per se, DL does have wingtip fences on their 764s. Not the same as winglets, but they serve the same role.

Those are raked wingtips, not wingtip fences.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 6):
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
but in the end DL wasn't satisfied with the results.

i read somewhere that the annual savings could be in the hundreds of thousnds of dollars, of course considering the route flown and how many hours the plane is used. Which would of course also save the useage of jet fuel. Prob just another cost DL could do without for now, even with all the savings built in.

I think Jumbojet was refering to DL putting winglets on the 727, not the 757 or the 738. The winglets lowered the 727's fuel burn, but not really enough to make a difference. The good ole 727 just burns too much.  Sad
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aeroweanie
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 8):
The winglets lowered the 727's fuel burn, but not really enough to make a difference.

Not so. Delta measured the guarenteed 5% savings while flying two 727s with Valsan winglets for a year. 5% is good, even with cheap jet fuel. What killed it was that Boeing stated that the structures would no longer by warenteed if the aircraft flew with winglets.
 
akjetBlue
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:49 am

I'm not sure how long it lasted but it was done with the 727s and short lived.


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abrelosojos
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:38 am

Thanks all. Can someone give me a crash course on the different types of winglets and the advantage/disadvantages? Otherwise post me a link which has some info -

Thanks,
A.
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aeroweanie
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RE: Delta & Winglets

Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
Thanks all. Can someone give me a crash course on the different types of winglets and the advantage/disadvantages?

My post from a Tech/Ops thread, back in March:

For a first-order analysis of the benefit from a winglet, lay it down flat as if it was a span extension. Hence, taller is better. Then, look at whether the winglet joins the wing in a sharp break or a smooth flow. Smooth is better.

Using this criteria, I'll rank the winglets (and raked tip):

1) The A3100/310/318/319/320/321/380 "winglets" are the least effective, but also increase wing bending moments the least. I have never seen a published number for how much they reduce drag (even Jupp's patent US4,714,215 says little), but I'd guess they are worth 1-1.5% drag improvement.

2) The MD-11 winglets come next. They are a direct outgrowth of Whitcomb's original designs. I have some NASA reports on the flight testing of a similar winglet on a DC-10. According to CR-3704, these winglets are produce a 2-2.5% drag reduction in cruise.

3) The Valsan/Quietwing 727 winglets are a latter Whitcomb influenced design. Coupled with a flap droop on the 727, they are reputed to be worth about 5%. The flap droop reduces wing bending moments and helps reduce wave drag, so the 5% is a mixture of effects. The winglet by itself is probably worth about 3%.

4) The 747-400 and A330/340 winglets are rather similar. They fall on the wing span extension line. I've read that the 747-400 winglets produce about a 3.5% drag reduction.

5) The 776-400ER/777-300ER/777-200LR raked tips also fall on the span extension line. They produce varying amounts of drag reduction, depending on their span. They also increase wing bending moments quite a bit.

6) The API/APB blended winglets produce better results than the span extension line indicates. The 737NG winglets are first generation and I've read that they produce about a 4.5% drag reduction. Later API/APB winglets improve on this.

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