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alberchico
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Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:32 am

short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
commavia
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:52 am

This is a different ballgame.

This isn't another Northwest-mechanics situation. Northwest called the mechanics bluff, and egged them on, because they had outsourcing vendors and replacement strikebreakers sitting around waiting to step in. That would not be the case with the Delta pilots -- they can't be replaced as quickly, cheaply or easily as mechanics. If Delta's pilots go on strike -- which I doubt will happen -- that very well could spell the end for Delta.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:21 am

It will not go that far. The pilot's union isn't stupid. If they go on strike they know it is the end of their jobs and the airline. The union and the company will come to terms before the judge cancels the contract.
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:29 am

The pilots already got their "full pay til the last day" during the big pay cut, they need to be team players now.

DL cannot take much more bad news.
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LAXintl
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:31 am

While not particularly a big fan of organized labor, I do however have to say what is being asked of the pilots is rather preposterous.

The group stepped up to the plate earlier in the year and voluntarily took a hefty average 32% paycut for 5 years. The give back which far exceeded a more traditional 10-20% cut was to meant to be a significant one time contribution to help the company. Now the company is demanding its pilots contribute another 19% in cuts.

No matter how much one happens to make, a 50%+ cut in pay and benefits is not something that seems reasonable to demand of any party.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
EXMEMWIDGET
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:33 am

The Delta pilots would do well to remember what happened to Eastern when the EA pilots went on strike for the last time.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:36 am

There comes a time when you have to say the hell with the company and fend for yourself. Pilots should not have have to put up with this crap. Not to mention that they ALREADY took a paycut. You can't just keep chopping people salaries until they make poverty wages. And if a strike is the way to show managament that they mean business, so be it...................
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
iluv747400
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
No matter how much one happens to make, a 50%+ cut in pay and benefits is not something that seems reasonable to demand of any party.

A 32% cut and then another 19% cut does not actually equal a 51% cut. If the 19% cut is off the already reduced salaries, it comes out to a 45% total cut or so. Still not great of course...
 
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alberchico
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Reply 7):
A 32% cut

even THAT is too much...................
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 2):
It will not go that far.

I hope not, but never underestimate the will of someone who thinks they've got nothing to lose.

Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 5):
The Delta pilots would do well to remember what happened to Eastern when the EA pilots went on strike for the last time.

The most senior ones never flew again. Most got jobs with other carriers though - but not right away, and I'm sure the stress of not knowing what the future held for a job was horrible.

However I'd venture to guess that it was equal to the stress of not knowing what the future held - if any - for you at their current company.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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wrighbrothers
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:50 am

The pilots are in a win win situation.

They are in a position where they know, one strike, and DL is out.
2nd- They have their cozy pay deal, where they get full pay no matter what, untill the last day.

Example- The pilots ( and cabin crew, although i'm not sure about that one) are usualy the only ones NOT to take the pay cut, Everyone from Senior Management, down to check-in staff, engineers etc, have to take a pay cut.
some of money that everyone else has to take out, goes back into paying the pilots saliries.
Bearing in mind that most capitains earn more money than managers.

And this is the situation with every airline in finatual problems.

IMHO- Pilots don't always do their fair share, for example, if the ground staff go on strike, the pilots don't have to worry their heads off, or dash around , filling in for the striking staff.
2- When they de-board the plane and go home for the weekend, they leave their job behind them, they don't have to worry.

This may sound harsh, but how many people here can say that that isn't the truth ?

Wrighbrothers
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kiwiandrew

RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 10):
2nd- They have their cozy pay deal, where they get full pay no matter what, untill the last day.

suggest you re-read reply number 4 - pilots have already taken a big pay cut
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 11):
suggest you re-read reply number 4 - pilots have already taken a big pay cut



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
No matter how much one happens to make, a 50%+ cut in pay and benefits is not something that seems reasonable to demand of any party.

True, but how much do you think pilots earn compared to say your everyday check-in staff, I know they are totaly different, but that's why

Wrighbrothers
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panamair
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
The group stepped up to the plate earlier in the year and voluntarily took a hefty average 32% paycut for 5 years. The give back which far exceeded a more traditional 10-20% cut was to meant to be a significant one time contribution to help the company. Now the company is demanding its pilots contribute another 19% in cuts.

Voluntarily? If they were really that altruistic, the pay cuts would have happened a long time ago and DL would perhaps not be in as bad shape as it currently is. Yes, management failed in its job to stop the pilots from getting their FAT "United+1" contract a few years ago. But when AA and UA were chopping their pilot pay by 30-33% in 2002, did anyone step up to volunteer anything? The excuse? Because Leo Mullin had managed to maintain (and even increase) DL's cash balance during those lean, post-9/11 years, the pilots said they saw no need to give back because DL was in "better shape" than the others. You had to be blind to think that DL could sustain those kinds of pay rates when all around them, the competition was cutting pay by a third. The $1 billion concessions came at the last minute (in late 2004) to help DL stave off CH.11. And the 32% was coming off of historic highs (when DL pilots were just about the best paid in the industry thanks to "United+1")
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 12):
True, but how much do you think pilots earn compared to say your everyday check-in staff

Using your same argument, how much do physicians earn compared to say their receptionists?

Now do you see why your argument is flawed?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
LAXintl
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:00 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Reply 7):
A 32% cut and then another 19% cut does not actually equal a 51% cut. If the 19% cut is off the already reduced salaries, it comes out to a 45% total cut or so.

Cuts are off the original base rates. The idea being the original 5 year, and the now additional concessions are only "temporary / voluntary", and eventually there will be a snap back to pre concessions rates.

Offcourse if Delta gets the additional 19% cut as it request by way of a court order tossing the pilots contract out then there is really no requirement to consider the previous cuts temporary. The company would have a blank white sheet to impose all new terms and conditions.

However if that point is reached, it becomes questionable if the company without a collective bargaining agreement has any legal grounds to force the pilots to remain on the job. I suspect not as everyone becomes an "at-will" employee.

Delta Says It Can't Predict Whether It Can Stop a Strike if Pilots Walk Out
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/051114/delta.html?.v=4
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luisca
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:04 am

DL pilots have already given the airline enough, DL has to look toward other ways of saving money. If they cant find them, then good riddance. It hurts me to see one of my favorite airlines in such bad shape but unfortunately, as Anne Robinson would say.....

DELTA:

YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK, GOODBYE

When they both filled for CH 11, I tought that NW was the one with the dimmest future, as each day passes by it becomes clearer, DL is on its death bed. We all can agree that one airline needs to die, for a while it seemed like US was the one, now they seem saved, so its either NW or DL, the clook is ticking, place your bets on which one is gonna make it. In the end I do hope we come out with a stronger American Airline industry.

[Edited 2005-11-14 19:09:53]
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):
Using your same argument, how much do physicians earn compared to say their receptionists?

Now do you see why your argument is flawed?

Yes, I was saying that's why they take the biggest pay cut.
If the hospitals needed money, do you think they would ask the doctors on £60-000-£100,000 +, compared to a receptionist on £15,000

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
halls120
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
However I'd venture to guess that it was equal to the stress of not knowing what the future held - if any - for you at their current company.

Just talked to my brother, who is a DL pilot. Your comment above is dead on. At this point, he told me that if the union votes to strike, he'll join his follow pilots on the line. Even if it means he loses his job, because he's not sure he's going to have a job when the dust settles. A shortsighted view IMO, but that's how he sees it.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 12):
True, but how much do you think pilots earn compared to say your everyday check-in staff, I know they are totaly different, but that's why

Pilots are paid more than CSR's for good reason. A pilot could step in and do the CSR's job if need be. I doubt the CSR could reciprocate.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 13):
If they were really that altruistic, the pay cuts would have happened a long time ago and DL would perhaps not be in as bad shape as it currently is. Yes, management failed in its job to stop the pilots from getting their FAT "United+1" contract a few years ago. But when AA and UA were chopping their pilot pay by 30-33% in 2002, did anyone step up to volunteer anything? The excuse? Because Leo Mullin had managed to maintain (and even increase) DL's cash balance during those lean, post-9/11 years, the pilots said they saw no need to give back because DL was in "better shape" than the others.

I've used this very same argument in discussions with my brother. Needless to say we agree to disagree.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
luisca
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 17):
Yes, I was saying that's why they take the biggest pay cut.
If the hospitals needed money, do you think they would ask the doctors on £60-000-£100,000 +, compared to a receptionist on £15,000

Wrighbrothers

They take the biggest pay cut in terms of dollars, not in terms of percentages

a pilot makes 100K a year, a check in clerk 20K, A 35% pay cut means 35K a year for a pilot and 7K a year for a check in clerk. But they both still take a 35% pay cut.

Lets say you make a 1000 dollars a month, you pay with that rent, school for the kids, insurance, car, food. Suddenly your employer wants you to just take in 650 dollars. You have grown accustomed over the years to earning 1000 dollars, you cant just go and say OK, sure. You would probably have to move, put your kids in public school, etc in order to be able to adjust to your new earnings, BELIEVE ME, it is not fun having to downsize. They already did it once, It is unfair to ask them to do it again.

As I said above, either DL finds new ways to save money, or DL says bye bye.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
incitatus
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
The group stepped up to the plate earlier in the year and voluntarily took a hefty average 32% paycut for 5 years.

Please do not get fixated on the 32% "pay cut". That was the average reduction in the flying rates. After that, pilots adjusted their flying patterns to improve their pay. In the end, the net effect of the -32% adjustment in pay scales was more like a 15% pay reduction. So, for purposes of being sympathetic to the pilots, replace 32% with 15%.
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Dalmd88
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:20 am

Why sould they take a paycut? Their rates are still higher than most of the other airlines in the US. If you look at the UAL contract Dl pilots are $20-$30 more an hour in all types. We can't compete with that. Why Leo ever gave them this sky high contract in the first place I'll never understand.
 
Pope
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:24 am

I still don't know why unions just don't change tactics and make it a given that they accept the same percentage cuts that managment takes. No off-balance sheet bankrupt proof pension plan, no retention bonus bullshit but an honest across the board paycut for everyone.

How can everyone be on the same boat and row in the same direction IF only 10% of the people have lifevests?

Align mgt and employee interest and see how these problems start to resolve themselves.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ckfred
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:34 am

This still raises a legal question that, to date, isn't answered. If a bankruptcy court voids a collective bargaining agreement, does the bargaining unit, i.e., the unionized employees, have the the right to engage in a strike?

I don't think the Railway Labor Act has any language covering this issue. Frankly, there are convincing arguments for both sides of the issue.

You have to believe that either Delta's pilots or a group of employees at Northwest will eventually go on strike after a court orders a new contract.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, if a strike does take place.
 
gokmengs
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
There comes a time when you have to say the hell with the company and fend for yourself. Pilots should not have have to put up with this crap. Not to mention that they ALREADY took a paycut. You can't just keep chopping people salaries until they make poverty wages. And if a strike is the way to show managament that they mean business, so be it...................

I really find your comments very unfortunate since its not only the pilots job on the line here. You are talking about the whole company and thousands of jobs. DL pilots won't be the only ones to take multiple paycuts. If you look at airlines that is not in bankruptcy right now you can see that they all took that route in the past and I'm sure it helped their financial situation
By no means I am trying to say that DL is in this shape because of its pilots salaries but it obviously had helped the situation.
As for the pilots I feel bad for them due to their paycuts but if they see the big picture this is one of the steps that need to be taken for the brighter future of DL=pilots and the rest of the employees. I don't think going on strike is the wise choice on their behalf or any involved. I hope that DL will resolve this and the pilots will see the big picture and contribute to the reorganization and the future of DL like they always did.
Looking forward to "Flying Delta Jets" in The Future As Always Smile
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lightsaber
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
If Delta's pilots go on strike -- which I doubt will happen -- that very well could spell the end for Delta.

DL is claiming such:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/051114/delta.html?.v=5

Quote:

"ALPA devotes substantial space in its objection to the balance of the equities, using as its centerpiece a 'murder-suicide' threat," the airline wrote. "Deny the motion to reject, the court is told, or the association will call a post-rejection strike that will kill the company and eliminate every pilot job -- indeed every Delta job."

and

Quote:

Delta pilots have tried without success to get the company to continue making certain contributions to the pension plan during the bankruptcy case.

While this is painful, DL must be drastic or they're in big trouble. IIRC, 30% of their revenue is Northeast to Florida. This once lucrative, fast growing, market is being eaten up by LCC competitors. Rant all you want... DL has no choice but to adapt.

Quoting Pope (Reply 22):
I still don't know why unions just don't change tactics and make it a given that they accept the same percentage cuts that management takes.

While I can normally be pro-management, in this case I will argue that DL's management should take a *larger* pay cut than the staff. DL is "top heavy" versus any LCC... cut the fat. As the catering is outsourced, get rid of those VP's associated with that and put the job under a procurement VP, etc.

Of course, none of this solves the issue of DL's current poor aircraft distribution. (e.g., too many CRJ's) I hope DL survives... but will it?

Lightsaber
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:44 am

It's sad that it has come to this, but it's not a total surprise.

Both sides have a legitimate argument. DL's pilots have to wake up and realize that DL cannot generate enough of a revenue premium to pay them a premium. DL's network is low-yield and leisure driven which means that DL employees (of all kinds) will probably have to settle for lower pay than other majors.

However, the pilots definitely have a legitimate beef with DL management. DL has been mismanaged for many years and DL is forcing the employees to pay for most of it. DL is still an inefficient airline with too many layers of management, too many different products and too much complexity overall.

As DL has declined over the past two years, I have been slowly liquidating my SkyMiles. In fact, I used up most of my remaining miles for this upcoming Christmas (we'll see how that goes). I'm also cancelling my DL Amex. If DL survives, I'll probably still fly them when it fits my schedule/budget, but overall my Delta flying will be substantially less.

I genuinely hope that DL survives, but management has got a lot of work to do and DALPA needs to face reality.
 
Pope
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 25):
While I can normally be pro-management, in this case I will argue that DL's management should take a *larger* pay cut than the staff. DL is "top heavy" versus any LCC... cut the fat. As the catering is outsourced, get rid of those VP's associated with that and put the job under a procurement VP, etc.

I don't disagree with a word you've posted. I too am usually pro-mgt, but I think a fantastic negotiating ploy for the unions would be to tie rank and file compensation cuts with those of mgt.

I would sit across the table and say, how can you expect me to take a 30% pay cut unless you're willing to submit to the same cut yourself. Are we on the same boat or not?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
gokmengs
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 22):
Align mgt and employee interest and see how these problems start to resolve themselves.

Completely agreed, I am not a big fan of unionized labor, but the gap between what the mgmt sacrifices and what they want the rest of the employees to give up is a shame. This is not a DL only case however. Its more like most of corporate America or everywhere else in the world. The companies that does what you suggest are limited yet they are the most profitable companies in the world. No wonder they always manage to be in the list of Fortune's best companies to work for; the employees and the mgmt give 110 percent to the effort.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):
Pilots are paid more than CSR's for good reason. A pilot could step in and do the CSR's job if need be. I doubt the CSR could reciprocate.

Every job requires training. I hope pilots aren't so arrogant that they think they can do everyone else's job at DL just because they can do the one they are trained to do.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:45 am

In any case, it is still a terrible situation for everybody - DL's pilots, other DL workers, the debtholders, leasing companies, the customers, the airports and the cities they serve and so on. If there were to be a strike, there could be many thousands stranded all over the world. Many people won't make it home for holidays. There isn't enough slack in the system to absob all of the business of DL short-term should there service is suspended, and probably wouldn't be for several months.
Yes, for years the airlines bought labor peace with what are now unstainable compensation systems and too expensive traditional pension systems, but the problem is that the cost of living in many places is so high and getting higher in the USA, that to be forced to cutback could lead to serious financial problems for even top pilots.
One can ask what a pilot is really worth, but when the weather is bad, traffic worse, something goes wrong, you want someone well paid to do the job as needed.
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
even THAT is too much...................



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 11):
suggest you re-read reply number 4 - pilots have already taken a big pay cut

so they make 110,000 for 80 hours of work a month...yeah, that's tough.
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Evan767
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:45 am

Go ahead pilots. Strike. F*** up my family and my mother's job at DL and the same goes for the rest of the tens of thousands of employees. Throw all of our flight benefits, and don't forget yours, down the drain, and you know how genorous DL treats us with flight benefits, better than any other airline I presume. Put 55,000 (Correct me if I am wrong) people out of their jobs and on the streets. Good luck finding another high paying pilot job. You are likely to be kicked out on the streets as well. All your years of seniority go bye bye. If you do happen to get another job, you are likely to be at the bottom of the totem pole, making even worse at a regional airline of what you would still be making at Delta if you'd taken the cut. If DL pilots go on strike it will screw thousands of people over, and how dirty can a person be to do that? Why won't our pilots think of all the consequences even if they do take the cuts?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
luisca
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 31):
so they make 110,000 for 80 hours of work a month...yeah, that's tough

80 hours is just the time they are flying on the plane, what about the time they are going to the airport, preparing for the flight, pre flight operations, time they are away from their families, their homes, etc. A pilot has to be on call a lot of the time. You don't have any control over your future schedule. I bet you are planning your Christmas dinner right now, a pilot is still wondering whether or not he will be home for Christmas. Pilots study hard, and work hard, and should be fairly compensated for it, WHO ARE YOU to decide what is fair or unfair for a pilot?. From your profile I assume you are in an office 9-5 mon-fri and the minute you leave the office you forget about it. You are probably never a more than a 15 minute drive away from your family, but a pilot can be a 15 hour flight away from his.

So please stop your bolchevique crap about whether or not 110K a year is fair or not for a pilot. There is a reason why they make the big bucks and you don't!
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
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alberchico
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 31):
so they make 110,000 for 80 hours of work a month...yeah, that's tough.

Your're kidding me right ????????

Do you know how many unpaid hours they have to spend preparing for the flight ? What about the hardships of sim checks and med checks every 6 months. Dp you know how hard it is to stay in shape until your 60 ???
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
calpilot
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 29):
Every job requires training. I hope pilots aren't so arrogant that they think they can do everyone else's job at DL just because they can do the one they are trained

Most pilots know that it takes training to do a CSA's job.

In fact it takes around 4 weeks of training to do that job.

How many years training, and experience does it take to make it to the cockpit of an airline?

I took 7.8 years from start to acceptance. So all the CSA's can quit, and go to college get their BA in Air Science, start their fight training, go get sh@!t jobs flying frieght somewhere, and in a few years get a job at B6 for $30k a year and just be content to fly a jet for a job.
 
Lono
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:51 am

This is getting interesting.... many of us on here have predicted this as the industry changes.... Unfortunately it will only get worse I fear....
I used to work for DL.... and I always knew they were in for a major restructure... but I did not expect them to be a candidate for extinction....
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
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alberchico
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 32):
Go ahead pilots. Strike. F*** up my family and my mother's job at DL and the same goes for the rest of the tens of thousands of employees.

There comes a time when you have to say enough is enough. So you suggest pilots just willingly invite management to cut their salary and benefits every time the airline loses money?
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 33):
So please stop your bolchevique crap about whether or not 110K a year is fair or not for a pilot. There is a reason why they make the big bucks and you don't!

It isn't any different for any other Delta employee. Pilots aren't the only ones that are working for DL 24 hours a day/7 days a week/365 days a year. Working in an office 9-5 is still working approximately 175-190 hours a month. Pilots hold lines that are bid on monthly and generally work 3-4 days a week. Don't try and propagate the difference between what a pilot does in this industry from anyone else that works for an airline.
Using your logic the same can be said for a Flight Attendent, but I don't see the FA's trying to bring down Delta.
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 33):
80 hours is just the time they are flying on the plane, what about the time they are going to the airport, preparing for the flight, pre flight operations, time they are away from their families, their homes, etc. A pilot has to be on call a lot of the time. You don't have any control over your future schedule.

It's a hard life isn't it  Yeah sure, I'm sure for that money, most people would be willing to do that. Lets not of course forget that they may only do 1 flight a week.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 32):
Go ahead pilots. Strike. F*** up my family and my mother's job at DL and the same goes for the rest of the tens of thousands of employees.

But the problem is, they'll be the ones who get a job within a couple of weeks.

Wrighbrothers
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 33):
80 hours is just the time they are flying on the plane, what about the time they are going to the airport, preparing for the flight, pre flight operations, time they are away from their families, their homes, etc. A pilot has to be on call a lot of the time. You don't have any control over your future schedule. I bet you are planning your Christmas dinner right now, a pilot is still wondering whether or not he will be home for Christmas. Pilots study hard, and work hard, and should be fairly compensated for it, WHO ARE YOU to decide what is fair or unfair for a pilot?. From your profile I assume you are in an office 9-5 mon-fri and the minute you leave the office you forget about it. You are probably never a more than a 15 minute drive away from your family, but a pilot can be a 15 hour flight away from his.

First, there are thousands of consultants and other professionals that do the same thing every week, and work 160 hours a month for about the same money, travel away from their family etc. (I am currently working with about 300 of those individuals and most everyone is 800 to 1500 miles from home)

Secondly, airline pilots bid their routes usually a month at a time and know their schedule (including Christmas) well before they need to buy groceries for the big day.

Third, I have 2 A320 FO's 1 A320 Captain and 1 75/67 Captain as friends and family. I can tell you they don't have to work that hard.


Fourth, Doctors, lawyers and accountants also have attend additional training,etc for their certification and don't get paid for their time.

There is no other job in the US at least that pays as much for as little work except perhaps for Dentists and Brain Surgeons.

I think it is great, but I don;t feel bad for someone making 80,000-120,000 a year for 80 hours of work when the average HOUSEHOLD income in the us is 38,000 a year for a 2080 hour or more a year job.
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jumbojet
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
And if a strike is the way to show managament that they mean business, so be it...................

Which will take down the airline and have a domino effect that most people here havent even comtemplated yet. Not only will it destroy the jobs of the F/A's, ramp workers, Mechanics, etc, etc, but countless other airport workers around the world who rely on travelers for business. Such as Hartsfied International airport. You strike, and can you imagine all those empty terminal buildings? Has any other airline in the past that has liquidated dominate such a large portion of an airport? ATL has to be over 90% dominated by Delta. Though I can see the pilots point of having to draw the line somewhere when it comes to management and their cuts, they will still be able to earn a decent pilots wage while the company gets back on its financial feet.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 16):
We all can agree that one airline needs to die,

I dont agree with you.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):
At this point, he told me that if the union votes to strike, he'll join his follow pilots on the line

what about "family X' stranded in Athens or family 'Y' stranded in Narita because DL pilots went on strike? How do you suppose they get home? Fine if they want to strike, but then what, how do the millions of potentially stranded people get home? What does Delta do then?
 
b727
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:02 am

I'd much rather take a 32% paycut than a 100% paycut anyday. They can start searching for a job, it is free world.

B727
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:07 am

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 35):
Most pilots know that it takes training to do a CSA's job.

In fact it takes around 4 weeks of training to do that job.

How many years training, and experience does it take to make it to the cockpit of an airline?

I know and I respect that. I just can't stand the arrogance. Is the higher than God attitude learned in year 5 or 6?  wink 
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alberchico
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 40):
Third, I have 2 A320 FO's 1 A320 Captain and 1 75/67 Captain as friends and family. I can tell you they don't have to work that hard.

You can't compare pilots to doctors, lawyers. They can work as long as they want with bad health, pilots can't. Pilots have to retire at age 60 so there's more pressure on them to accumulate more money. Also if you have the power to force the company to back down from their demands then why not use it..........
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ejmmsu
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:08 am

It is very simple.

DL should offer no more and no less than the industry average for mainline pilots.

The Pilots should expect no more and no less than the industry average for mainline pilots.

In today's market, you can't survive with a labor cost structure higher than your compeitors.

It would help right-size the industry if a legacy carrier said goodbye. However, if all current airlines wish to keep flying their full schedules at the current fare and passenger levels, they are simply going to have to accept less pay.
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:13 am

Southwest's pilots are paid better than any Legacy, it's not the labor, it's how you use it, and what kind of attitude you have.

(Southwest mechanics are AFMA also)
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Tornado82
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14):

Using your same argument, how much do physicians earn compared to say their receptionists?

Now do you see why your argument is flawed?



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):

Pilots are paid more than CSR's for good reason. A pilot could step in and do the CSR's job if need be. I doubt the CSR could reciprocate.

Exactly. Someone with a high school education can be a CSR without any college-level coursework. No offense to CSR's, but it's a simple fact. I didn't learn how to fly 737's and MD80's at my high school though, and these pilots paid BIG money to get certified to fly those big birds at post-secondary institutes. They deserve fairly compensated just like a doctor for their expenditure and time spent learning.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 33):
From your profile I assume you are in an office 9-5 mon-fri and the minute you leave the office you forget about it. You are probably never a more than a 15 minute drive away from your family, but a pilot can be a 15 hour flight away from his.

Not all office jobs are always within a 15 minute drive from home, and are without being on call. If so I would have been posting alot more last week, lol.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 46):
Southwest's pilots are paid better than any Legacy, it's not the labor, it's how you use it, and what kind of attitude you have.

Major airlines will never have the simplified management structure that Southwest has. Nor will they have the long periods of profitability that Southwest had. Profits and steady growth helped create a harmonious work enviroment.


Remember LCC's have an entirely different business structure than legacy carriers..............
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jumbojet
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RE: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:19 am

Delta mgmt needs 325 Million and DALPA'S offer of 95 million isnt that far off. maybe they can negotiate some in between amount that the two sides can say is fair. Lets say both sides can haggle a little bit and come to an agreement. The difference is 230 million. Let's say mgmt agrees to come down 115 million and the pilots go up 115 million? That makes the give back 210 million which doesnt look as drastic for the pilots and surely mgmt could come up with some alternative way to save that 115 Million, like cut a few top heavy mgmt jobs, or whatever.

No matter what, DL pilots would still be making a competitve salary. What a shame it would be to kill this airline over what is essentially, maintaining the highest pay rates for most of their pilots.