DIA
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A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:50 am

As I know, among the many tech and comfort advances that will be integrated into the 787 are things such as larger windows that allow the pax to see the horizon, cabin humidity for less jetlag, wider seats, minimal fuel consumption, etc.

What I don't know is what advances Airbus planning for the A350?


I ask, because I just recently took a trip on an A318, and saw the very-advanced cabin display for the F/As to use......which made me wonder what Airbus is planning for their next jet. (The A318 easily earned the status of being my favorite Airbus. Loved the way it flew, sounds, etc. although I've never been on an Airbus widebody) But I'll leave all that for another discussion...

So what of the A350?
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UairFokker
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:32 am

Well, it seems now both Airbus and Boeing care a lot about passengers.
Such is the case with the A380, 787, etc...

Airbus, to successfully compete with the "passenger innovative" Dreamliner, should also apply cabin changes, which, essentially are: bigger cabin dimensions, a kind of ceiling that displays the sky outside it, etc.

In all, Boeing seems much more interested than Airbus on its aircraft comfort level. Airbus is overly interested on economics.

At least this is my view.

Regards,
 
airfrnt
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:41 am

A lot of the improvements are directly due to the increased use of composites in the plane. Since Airbus is not following Boeing's lead (at least so far) on the composite changeover, the A350 will not have a similar experience.
 
A350
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:42 am

Today, there is a new article in Flugrevue about the A350. Airbus plans to improve humidity and cabin pressure as Boeing does on the 787, and Leahy even claims to beat Boeing there. No words about window size
I believe it at my first flight in the A350 :

Quote:
Inside the A350 passenger cabin, which has been slightly enlarged due to the use of flattened ribs, Airbus plans to increase the air humidity to 20 percent, that is, five percent more than in the 787 which already has a particularly comfortable design. Again, the internal pressure will defy the Boeing model, with a typical pressure altitude of only 1,830m.

A350

EDIT: typo

[Edited 2005-11-14 18:43:28]
 
PlaneDane
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
As I know, among the many tech and comfort advances that will be integrated into the 787 are things such as larger windows that allow the pax to see the horizon, cabin humidity for less jetlag, wider seats, minimal fuel consumption, etc.

What I don't know is what advances Airbus planning for the A350?


I ask, because I just recently took a trip on an A318, and saw the very-advanced cabin display for the F/As to use......which made me wonder what Airbus is planning for their next jet. (The A318 easily earned the status of being my favorite Airbus. Loved the way it flew, sounds, etc. although I've never been on an Airbus widebody) But I'll leave all that for another discussion...

So what of the A350?

You'd love the flying experience on an A332 even more, trust me on that.

Airbus has done an admirable job of matching feature for feature what Boeing is offering. However, the problem is that the Airbus solution is severely limited by its reliance on mostly conventional technology.

The A350 will suffer from fatigue and corrosion as any commercial aircraft flying today does while the B787 will not. Fuel consumption, payload capacity and range will be better, but pale in comparison to what the B787 will offer.

However, I believe that we can expect Airbus to compensate for these economic disadvantages of the A350 by offering it at a significantly lower price, which is why airlines are looking at it and orders are being placed.
 
musapapaya
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
Airbus has done an admirable job of matching feature for feature what Boeing is offering. However, the problem is that the Airbus solution is severely limited by its reliance on mostly conventional technology.

Please may I have some evidence on this statement?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
Fuel consumption, payload capacity and range will be better, but pale in comparison to what the B787 will offer.

Any real source on this one again?

Regards.
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keesje
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
we can expect Airbus to compensate for these economic disadvantages of the A350 by offering it at a significantly lower price, which is why airlines are looking at it and orders are being placed.

Do you have any source for that, all the indicators seem to point to other way around.. List prices, overall margins, rumors on 787 launch contracts & conditions, pls do a search around on a.net..
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FriendlySkies
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:57 am

I'm very interested in how Airbus plans to match the interior comfort of the 787 without upgrading the materials that, according to Boeing at least, limit the amount of pressure inside the cabin.
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting UairFokker (Reply 1):
Boeing seems much more interested than Airbus on its aircraft comfort level.

Boeing is playing catchup in this area, and the best way to catch up is to surpass and let the other guy sweat it out, just the changes to the A330-800 that makes it an 'all new' A350-800. Airbus wasn't planning on offering these features on the re-engined A330 last summer, but Boeing forced them too.

Kind of like how car companies keep pushing interior features to make the other guy look bad. Airbus did it with the cabin environments of the A330/340 and A320s, and Boeing improved things on the 777 and brought it to the 767 line as well. Now the A380 potentially offers more comfort and features to the point that Boeing added "glitz" to the 747A design, etc.

Quoting A350 (Reply 3):
Airbus plans to improve humidity and cabin pressure as Boeing does on the 787, and Leahy even claims to beat Boeing there. No words about window size

Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity. One would expect that there needs to be some protective coating on the structure for the humidity levels to work, and that would eat into interior space, no?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
Fuel consumption, payload capacity and range will be better, but pale in comparison to what the B787 will offer.

I don't think so. B787 should offer slightly better economics (which is why Airbus is pushing the capacity figures to make them look higher than they really are), but it won't be leaps and bounds ahead of the A350, because the A330 is already efficient, and the A350 will share engines with the 787 (with slight improvements in RR's case), and use other lightening procedures to narrow that gap.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:12 am

I'm still curious to see how Boeing solved or will solve aged resin gelcoat cracking problem on composite CFRP structures. Airbus reps do have some credible comparisons on aluminum - lithium alloys in comparison to the carbon-fibre structure. I'm pretty sure Boeing is aware of the gelcoat issue, I just wonder how are they going to solve it.
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ikramerica
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 9):
I'm pretty sure Boeing is aware of the gelcoat issue, I just wonder how are they going to solve it.

AFAIK, they have. There are a lot of technical articles that can be searched for talking about this.

B is doing some true innovations for this project, and that should not be overlooked in this whole A350/787 debate. Commercial aviation is going to advance quite a bit from this project, assuming B can pull it off. Very little advancement will come from the A350 project, as it only exists as a response to the 787, and it will only offer some of the same features a couple years later.

It will likely be a great plane, just not an innovating aircraft.
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abba
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Airbus wasn't planning on offering these features on the re-engined A330 last summer, but Boeing forced them too.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Kind of like how car companies keep pushing interior features to make the other guy look bad. Airbus did it with the cabin environments of the A330/340 and A320s, and Boeing improved things on the 777 and brought it to the 767 line as well. Now the A380 potentially offers more comfort and features to the point that Boeing added "glitz" to the 747A design, etc.

Isn't competition a beautiful thing? The winners in this compaction are us - the consumers!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity. One would expect that there needs to be some protective coating on the structure for the humidity levels to work, and that would eat into interior space, no?

Will this protective coating be needed on GLARE? Perhaps some of the new advanced alloys that they are using will allow for higher humidity without the need for coating?

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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
assuming B can pull it off

They will. I don't think anyone doubts that.

It'll be a milestone, The only question is: How big a milestone?
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Glom
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 11):
Will this protective coating be needed on GLARE?

I don't think they're using GLARE on the A350. They're using Li-Al.

Quoting Abba (Reply 11):
Isn't competition a beautiful thing? The winners in this compaction are us - the consumers!

It is the one true democracy (which technically means a system controlled by the people).
 
boeingbus
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
They're using Li-Al.

Yes. Boeing in conjunction with Alcoa practically invented this alloy material and has been using this extensively on the 744 and 777 fuselage panels to save weight. This has been around for over 20 years. For the 7E7, Boeing turned down the Li-Al alloys for the composite structure. Why is that? Because composites weigh less. A350 will be a fantastic machine with "787esque" comfort features w/ 200 potential sales this year as proof... it is doing very well being the second best. Congrats to Airbus for wonderful marketing.

In summary: the A350 is a larger version or a "Chinese copy" of the 787.

Cheers,

Ric
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astuteman
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:02 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity.

Here's a thought for you:- this may be one of the contributory reasons for Airbus stating a saving of 8 tonnes, which hasn't fully shown up in the OEW.
Maybe a more traditional "A330" build would have been 8t heavier to achieve these things?
Just a thought....
 
McGoose
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:33 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity. One would expect that there needs to be some protective coating on the structure for the humidity levels to work, and that would eat into interior space, no?

I think humidity will be a small problem. How to keep it away from sensitive areas. Probably use the same technology as Boeing will.
 
Joni
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:45 pm

Interesting text from the Flug Revue article on bleed vs. bleedless and Al-Li vs. composites:

Quote:
As John Leahy explains, �We believe it is better to use bleed air than to generate power separately. That would require liquid-cooled heat exchangers, which would raise the maintenance costs by 40 percent in return for only a 1.5 percent reduction in fuel consumption.� This maintenance argument is also used to justify the retention of aluminium in the fuselage area, compared with the composite materials to be used on the 787. As Leahy explains, �The fuselage is forever taking knocks from apron vehicles. Everyone knows how to perform an aluminium repair. With the latest aluminium lithium alloys, we can achieve half the weight saving possible from the use of composites, but with far greater ease of maintenance.� 40 percent of the A350 is composite, 20 percent is aluminium lithium and 10 percent is titanium. Over 90% of the parts are new compared with an A330. Compared with a conventional structure, the A350 will lose eight tonnes of mass through the use of new materials. According to Airbus, passenger seat costs will even be 2 percent lower than those of its rival from Seattle, the 787. The A350-800 and A350-900 will have a maximum takeoff weight of 245 tonnes.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 17):
Interesting text from the Flug Revue article on bleed vs. bleedless and Al-Li vs. composites:

A preceding article from Flug Revue August 2004, Walt Gillette counters the claims by Airbus rather thoroughly.

Furthermore a 1.5% fuel burn reduction from a five or 6 ton per hour fuel burn is nothing to sneeze at. That amount of reduction could be as much as USD 75/hr or more depending on your fuel prices. I also have no Idea how Leahy knows the exact costs of maintenance for 787 bleedless systems but based on the system integration principles outlined by Boeing, the componentry is remarkably simple, lightweight, and low maintenance. Gillette explains in the text of the article how airframe maintenance worries have been overcome.


BOEING 7E7: gMORE EFFICIENT THAN THE A380h



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PlaneDane
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
we can expect Airbus to compensate for these economic disadvantages of the A350 by offering it at a significantly lower price, which is why airlines are looking at it and orders are being placed.

Do you have any source for that, all the indicators seem to point to other way around.. List prices, overall margins, rumors on 787 launch contracts & conditions, pls do a search around on a.net..

Sales info leaked back to Boeing from airline customers puts it at around $85M USD. That's all the more I can say.
 
cymro
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
I don't think they're using GLARE on the A350. They're using Li-Al.

Does anyone have any figures on the weight saving Li-Al gives over the material airbus has used on previous aircraft?
 
astuteman
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Cymro (Reply 20):
Does anyone have any figures on the weight saving Li-Al gives over the material airbus has used on previous aircraft?

Airbus quote 5%.
A
 
cymro
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 21):
Airbus quote 5%.

Thanks.

Is it possible that Airbus knew the 330 design could be improved to compete with the 787 by a re-design to bring it upto date (new materials etc) and introduction of more efficient engines.

Leaving a aircraft that they could design and produce in a shorter time space than expected and one then they could start while still running with the A380 not yet in service
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 17):
Interesting text from the Flug Revue article on bleed vs. bleedless and Al-Li vs. composites:

Wow, what a load of crap. He's using scare tactics for engineering counter arguments.

"Liquid cooling will take 40% more maintenance"

"composites aren't durable and are hard to repair"

translation: don't take risks on this unproven technology, go with old tech.

or worse: there is no such thing as advancement, because the problems of the past are destined to be eternal.


problem is, liquid cooling, power generators and composites are proven, and Boeing is improving them both to achieve this.

but I guess if you plane is just a "me too" effort, all you can do is bash the other guy.

the A350 will be a great plane, but I don't like to see people bash the company trying to take a risk and advance the state of the industry. that's just lame marketing.

and what's Airbus going to say when (if) the composite "problem" turns out to be a big cost positive and the 737 replacement is announced as composite and they have to do a composite A320 to compete? Will they bash composites then? And what if bleedless makes engines last longer and overall maintenance easier and less expensive and they have to go to bleedless on the A320 to compete? will liquid cooling be the bugaboo it is now?

This is the same kind of argument they made against the 777 with 2 engines but are now silent on regarding their 350.

Its the same kind of argument used to prevent societal advancements, energy exploration, etc. Basically it says: years ago, things weren't good, so for eternity, things will be just as poorly done as in the past. It ignores the advancement of technology and of man and keeps us stagnated.
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NZAA
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:08 am

Is it me or does Leahy often talk out of his  butthead  ???
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PlaneDane
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 5):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
Airbus has done an admirable job of matching feature for feature what Boeing is offering. However, the problem is that the Airbus solution is severely limited by its reliance on mostly conventional technology.

Please may I have some evidence on this statement?

Conventional aluminum alloy fuselage for starters. A Boeing engineer once gave me the analogy of metal fuselages to paper clips.

He said that each pressurization cycle is the equivalent of bending the paper clip. Bend it enough times and it weakens. Bend it some more and it cracks. Keep bending it and it eventually breaks. That's how it goes for aluminum alloys.

Composites do away with this fatigue.
 
abba
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 18):
A preceding article from Flug Revue August 2004, Walt Gillette counters the claims by Airbus rather thoroughly.

Walt Gillette, Vice President and Airplane Manager of the 7E7 programme, took the occasion of a visit by FLUG REVUE to his office to announce spectacular fuel consumption records for Boeing's latest twin-jet: “The 7E7 will use less fuel per passenger than an A380.” Boeing has set itself a target of reducing the 7E7's fuel consumption by 20 percent compared with comparable types around today, such as the 767. “Boeing has always taken the lead and been the first when it comes to innovation.”

Isn't there something that doesn't add up here? The fuel saving of 20% for the 787 is compared to the 767. But isn't the 380 already 20% better than the 767??? (Don't forget that the 787 has a weight problem due to the electric system not providing the saving first anticipated)

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
translation: don't take risks on this unproven technology, go with old tech.

or worse: there is no such thing as advancement, because the problems of the past are destined to be eternal.

[zip]

Its the same kind of argument used to prevent societal advancements, energy exploration, etc. Basically it says: years ago, things weren't good, so for eternity, things will be just as poorly done as in the past. It ignores the advancement of technology and of man and keeps us stagnated

It feels like a deja vue - doesn't it? Just like the discussion a few years ago about FBW. Airbus can now re-use Boeing's arguments from back then with only little or no change.  Wink

Good to see that Boeing again - after a loooooong time - is introducing something significantly new to the industry.


Abba
 
PlaneDane
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:09 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 26):
Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 18):
A preceding article from Flug Revue August 2004, Walt Gillette counters the claims by Airbus rather thoroughly.

Walt Gillette, Vice President and Airplane Manager of the 7E7 programme, took the occasion of a visit by FLUG REVUE to his office to announce spectacular fuel consumption records for Boeing's latest twin-jet: “The 7E7 will use less fuel per passenger than an A380.” Boeing has set itself a target of reducing the 7E7's fuel consumption by 20 percent compared with comparable types around today, such as the 767. “Boeing has always taken the lead and been the first when it comes to innovation.”

Isn't there something that doesn't add up here? The fuel saving of 20% for the 787 is compared to the 767. But isn't the 380 already 20% better than the 767???

Where did you read that the A380 is already 20% better than the 767?

Quoting Abba (Reply 26):
It feels like a deja vue - doesn't it? Just like the discussion a few years ago about FBW. Airbus can now re-use Boeing's arguments from back then with only little or no change.

Boeing's argument then and now was that technology such as FBW must pay for itself in order to be introduced into new aircraft and especially for existing models. Now, with fully advanced FBW and electronics instead of hydraulics, running on a fully open system architecture, it is worth it.

Which model of Airbus came out lighter than its competition because of going with FBW?
 
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Revelation
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 18):
Gillette explains in the text of the article how airframe maintenance worries have been overcome.

BOEING 7E7: gMORE EFFICIENT THAN THE A380h

Wow, great (but somewhat dated) article!

Quote:
But before wind tunnel engineer Robert Hill starts up his 55,000hp electric motor, he has to notify the power station, as the equipment already draws 26MW from the mains supply at the “cruise”, and at full throttle this rises to as much as 42MW.
[snip]Altogether, the 7E7 engineers will need 15,000 wind tunnel hours at various stages of the development work.

Holy megawatts, Batman! I remember reading one reason why Boeing was succesful in its early days in the Pacific NW: cheap electricity from the Columbia River! This helped with the power for the wind tunnel, as well as for the production of aluminum, which uses notoriously large amounts of electricity.

Quote:
Because every wind tunnel has its own characteristics, Boeing is also using facilities belonging to the University of Seattle, NASA in California and QinetiQ in Farnborough in parallel.

Holy subsidies, Batman! Got both the US and the UK governments chipping in!  Smile

For the record, I have no idea what Boeing pays for the use of these facilities, or if they pay at all.

Quoting Cymro (Reply 22):
Is it possible that Airbus knew the 330 design could be improved to compete with the 787 by a re-design to bring it upto date (new materials etc) and introduction of more efficient engines.

If you read widebodyphotog's article, you'd find one opinion that states that some of the aluminum-based materials have their drawbacks:

Quote:
The experienced designer is surprisingly sceptical about aluminium, the traditional aircraft material. “Aluminium has become a relatively expensive material, for which you have to pay 'boutique prices'. The majority of world production is destined for the consumer goods industry, for example, for drink cans or ladders. The proportion of aluminium accounted for by aerospace consumers is dwindling. If you need special alloys, then for the most part you have to finance these developments from your own pocket. That is becoming expensive. On the other hand, carbon fibre offers far more industrial applications, and this fact is exerting downward pressure on prices.” According to Gillette, Boeing would have needed eight different aluminium alloys for the 7E7, for which precise data was provided to the metal factories. Only one type met the specification.

So I wonder if any A330 redesign with just new engines and new materials would be competitive. On the other hand, A350 is using an all-new wing, getting it away from the original wing that was designed for use on both A330 and A340.
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QFA001
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:54 pm

Quoting A350 (Reply 3):
No words about window size

The A350 is offered with 8% larger windows than A330/340. The B787 has 64% larger windows than the A350. Airbus didn't solve that one.  Sad

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
I don't think they're using GLARE on the A350. They're using Li-Al.

Right. No GLARE.

Quoting Joni (Reply 17):
Interesting text from the Flug Revue article on bleed vs. bleedless and Al-Li vs. composites:

Quote:
As John Leahy explains, �We believe it is better to use bleed air than to generate power separately.

Whilst Leahy was babbling, at a conference last week Airbus was talking about how their next all-new airplane was likely to be all-electric. That is, a no-bleed air design.

Quoting Abba (Reply 26):
Isn't there something that doesn't add up here? The fuel saving of 20% for the 787 is compared to the 767. But isn't the 380 already 20% better than the 767???

Not even close. In terms of fuel-burn, the A380 is trash compared to its actual contemporaries and is about equal to a B763ER. It earns its lower seat-mile costs based on other items such as ownership cost per seat and resources required per seat.

Quoting Abba (Reply 26):
(Don't forget that the 787 has a weight problem due to the electric system not providing the saving first anticipated)

What was a problem months ago isn't necessarily still a problem, right?

 airplane QFA001
 
cymro
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
So I wonder if any A330 redesign with just new engines and new materials would be competitive. On the other hand, A350 is using an all-new wing, getting it away from the original wing that was designed for use on both A330 and A340.

A redesign to accommodate the lighter materials, improve aerodynamics and introduce modern manufacturing techniques plus more efficient engines would IMO produce a competitive aircraft.

Why start from scratch if you have an already proven and efficient design which you know the faults of(which you redesign) and that you can easily reduce the weight of. Surely this makes the best business sense especially when you have a very busy design house already.
 
Thorben
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 29):
Not even close. In terms of fuel-burn, the A380 is trash compared to its actual contemporaries and is about equal to a B763ER. It earns its lower seat-mile costs based on other items such as ownership cost per seat and resources required per seat.

No, the A380 has the best fuel burn per passenger of all existing planes.
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stall
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:00 am

Window size ???

As a passanger I don't really care about the window size, what really matters for me (and for most of the passengers) is the ticket price. If I can have large window is secondary
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zeke
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 25):
He said that each pressurization cycle is the equivalent of bending the paper clip. Bend it enough times and it weakens. Bend it some more and it cracks. Keep bending it and it eventually breaks. That's how it goes for aluminum alloys.

Composites do away with this fatigue.

Composites do fatigue, ask anyone who has a composite LPG tank in their car, or a composite O2 cylinder, they do have a faitigue life.

Both A&B have been using composites in pressurised and non-pressurised areas of aircraft for some time, the 787 will not be the first aircraft to have a composite pressure vessle.

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 29):
The A350 is offered with 8% larger windows than A330/340. The B787 has 64% larger windows than the A350. Airbus didn't solve that one.

Close to 70% bigger than a current window, or 40% more height and width of a current window, with a higher pressure diff than present aircraft. Seems doubtful to me, does not add up.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
No, the A380 has the best fuel burn per passenger of all existing planes.

I would disagee with you there, the 744D would do that at the moment, with 550 passengers on domestic services in Japan.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 33):
Close to 70% bigger than a current window, or 40% more height and width of a current window, with a higher pressure diff than present aircraft. Seems doubtful to me, does not add up.

How do the new 787s window size compare to the DC-8 window size? Anyone? Cause the DC-8 had really large windows.

Also, wtf is GLARE ? ... and wtf is Li-Al ?

Trent.
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QFA001
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
No, the A380 has the best fuel burn per passenger of all existing planes.

Not true. Of existing airplanes with like-for-like range capability, the A380 doesn't beat the fuel burn per seat of the B777-300ER. Regardless, the A380's main competitors aren't going to be existing types, but future types. Everything is relative. Relative to the new breed of smaller jetliners, the A380 fuel burn is poor.  Sad

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Thorben
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 33):
I would disagee with you there, the 744D would do that at the moment, with 550 passengers on domestic services in Japan.

And? Let the A380 have the same amount of passengers (800+), its fuel burn will be better.

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 35):
Not true. Of existing airplanes with like-for-like range capability, the A380 doesn't beat the fuel burn per seat of the B777-300ER.

Do you have figures?
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QFA001
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
Do you have figures?

This topic has been covered many, many times. However, you could also do your own analysis by using Airbus.com and Boeing.com. There is enough information at those two sites to make your own judgment.

In my experience of comparing the models, the B777-300ER offers to burn approx. -3% fuel per seat compared to the A380. Infact, if you were willing to forgo that the A330 is a medium-range airplane (ie. not designed for the segment lengths that the A380 is designed to do), then the -300 has a very comparable fuel burn per seat to the A380, too.

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ikramerica
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:02 am

BTW - to be on topic in the thread.

The 787 will EIS first. The A350 has new features for the A330/340 family to MATCH what the 787 offers. But it isn't, so far, bringing other innovations to the industry.

Thus the 350 will be a great plane, but it is impossible for both models to offer "advances" when one comes into the market second, both in offering and it EIS.

Just semantics.
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zeke
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RE: A350 Advances, Akin To 787?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 38):
But it isn't, so far, bringing other innovations to the industry.

A lot of very similar 787 cabin "innovations" are being rolled out on the 380, by the time the 350 is released it will be proven existing technology for the 350.

The 787 is using the same style cabin pressure controller as the 380.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar