Skydrol
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Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:25 pm

Just heard on the radio the GTAA plans to increase landing fees another 6 or 7 percent again. The official announcement will apparently be this week.

YYZ will then have the odious distinction of having the highest airport fees on earth.

Landing fees at YYZ were reported to have increased 289% in the past 15 years.

YYZ landing fees for B-747 were stated to be . . . $13,000 while $7,500 in Tokyo.


Maybe YHM starts to look more attractive now?



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DLKAPA
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:53 pm

Maybe they'll use the monies to make the runways safe in the rain  duck 
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Skydrol
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:32 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Thread starter):
Landing fees at YYZ were reported to have increased 289% in the past 15 years.

Actually, landing fees were reported to have increased 289% since 1998.

Sorry... I was painting a better picture for the GTAA than they are entitled.




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sflaflight
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:34 pm

Sad! Very Sad! but...it's not just the GTAA in Canada. As a Canadian living in South Florida, it's so sad to see Canadian airports doing this. It truely is a nightmare for flyers. At least in Toronto, you guys have an alternative AP in YHM. Montreal's alternative commercial airport is BTV or YOW, both almost 21/2 hours away. I go back to YUL every summer to visit friends and family and basically fly into BTV and rent a car. Heck, I have to rent a car anyway, plus I refuel at US gas prices, which is still cheaper than CDN fuel. Fares in the summer and winter can be upto 2/3 cheaper. And now, with the US dollar crashing, there isn't the exchange rate that used to exist. To me, it's not a question of being cheap but a way of not supporting those AP monopolies and supporting lower landing fees south of the border. Once Plattsburgh opens, even better as I'm on the South Shore!!!
 banghead 
 
DYK
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:59 pm

This is unbelievable! Particularly when the feds will be reduce the lease hold rents. Wonder if there will be some carriers who will give up on YYZ?
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Cruiser
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:11 pm

33% of those landing fees go straight to the federal government. In the US, airports do not pay anything to the federal government, and in some cases, are actually subsidized. It truly is sad that YYZ pays 66% of all airport rents in Canada, yet only processes 33% of the passengers.

James
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Mark_D.
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:25 pm

Well, what can ya do. YYZ's T1-New IS a truly-amazing place and piece of airport infrastructure to boot, but then these things sure don't come cheap. At least, not in the mighty-fine fashion they're building that terminal anyway --kind of a cathedral to commercial aviation  Smile

I'm sure the landing-fee issue will sort itself out a couple years after the Pier F hammerhead is up and running, and the place really starts being put to use like it ought to be. Just a few more years to go is all.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:14 am

DLKPA-- Maybe they'll use the monies to make the runways safe in the rain  

A bit snotty as only the 24s near the 401 --especially 24L where the recent crash happened -- really need some attention there. But fair enough in that particular instance anyway. And lo and behold, looks like the Feds just might finally have wakened up to the need for it too, even if they may not go so far as to admit it:

http://www.softcom.net/webnews/wed/df/Ucanada-airsafety.RaXf_Fa6.html
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:47 am

Sflaflight-- It truely is a nightmare for flyers.

Uh-oh. From the sounds of it here it actually sounds more like it truly is more a nightmare for Sflaflight, individually  indifferent   Smile

At least in Toronto, you guys have an alternative AP in YHM.

Not really that alternative, y'know. Not if you're wanting to fly direct to Italy or Hungary or heck even just plain LHR or FRA, for that matter. So c'mon.

Montreal's alternative commercial airport is BTV or YOW, both almost 21/2 hours away.

You have got to be kidding, here. At least in general terms anyway (not specifically for JetBlue customers shuttling between BTV and JFK, say)

I go back to YUL every summer to visit friends and family and basically fly into BTV and rent a car. Heck, I have to rent a car anyway, plus I refuel at US gas prices, which is still cheaper than CDN fuel. Fares in the summer and winter can be upto 2/3 cheaper. And now, with the US dollar crashing, there isn't the exchange rate that used to exist.

Hey, if you truly get that kind of discount --and even if you don't visit friends and family in say Hemmingford or Napierville or even St. Jean-sur-Richelieu -- then why by all means go for it if you don't mind the hour or more each way of driving to and from Burlington.

To me, it's not a question of being cheap but a way of not supporting those AP monopolies and supporting lower landing fees south of the border.

And even if it may actually be somewhat of a political statement on your part, alongside  Smile


Once Plattsburgh opens, even better as I'm on the South Shore!!!

Ah yes, Plattsburgh. Let's see what all comes outta that one all right, since for now it all seems rather embryonic and even maybe a bit clueless, when it comes to actual sked passenger service that may come their way at some point. But good luck to 'em anyway though

http://www.montrealairport-us.com/
 
yow
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 6):
At least, not in the mighty-fine fashion they're building that terminal anyway --kind of a cathedral to commercial aviation

I think most people view T1-New as a bland piece of architecture, with a poor layout and a tonne of wasted space = a tonne of wasted money. Milton politely refers to it along the lines as being an 'alright facility'.
 
Olympus69
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting YOW (Reply 9):
with a poor layout and a tonne of wasted space

In what way does T1 have a poor layout and a tonne of wasted space? Also, what are your qualifications for making this statement?
 
fly_yhm
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:52 am

Well I hope Westjet feels the effects of it. People keep saying the people down here have YHM as an alternate well nobody wants to use it.

See if it actually does get more airlines over to YHM.
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cayman
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:24 pm

Where is the outcry in Toronto? Why is NOBODY in local media calling on fed govt to address this blatant inequity?
 
Skydrol
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:03 pm

I agree with YOW's comments. After passing through the new T1 at YYZ dozens of times, I am convinced it is another white elephant following up T3 (remember 'the dawn of civilized travel'?) Except the new T1 is plain, white and sterile. There are longer walks to get to some gates than I experienced in T2, and that was one of the common complaints about the linear terminal design. That millions was spent on artwork for the opening of this terminal is absurd when logistics were put on the back burner.

The common waiting area for Jazz flights in the new T1 is sub-par compared to the separate lounges Jazz offered in the old T1. During busy times it gets crowded, hot, with standing room only, and there is a confusing barrage of boarding announcements due to the fact 12 gates serve this common waiting area. And this is supposed to be the greatly improved terminal? Pathetic!

Does anyone consider what a waste of money it is to heat and air condition the volume of air inside a building with a (needless) 75 foot high ceiling in a region with 4 very cold months and 4 very hot months? But it's fine. The airlines will pay for the energy consumed. Natural gas will be a bargain this winter.

How about the cheap-ass tissue paper boarding pass printouts the GTAA check-in kiosks provide? That piece of shit is supposed to be a secure document for passing through security and boarding an aircraft? Not even watermarked. Absolute joke... Even a receipt from Safeway looks more professional.


So now with their new palace, the GTAA got what they deserve and the debts are killing them. Looks like they will make their clients pay their price.




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swissy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:21 pm

I agree with Skydrol but T1 is just a part of the hole problem GTAA has
on his hands now and lets blame the leases......., I mean a sercretary at GTAA
even has her own secretary!!! over paid and over staffed

YHM will not have a chance as the terminal situation is still a joke for wide body aircraft, thanks to WS YHM still is on the map.

Cheers,
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:44 pm



Quoting Swissy (Reply 14):
I mean a sercretary at GTAA
even has her own secretary!!! over paid and over staffed

Oh hi Swissy....have not seen you for a while. You may well be correct but this info is anecdotal. Some secretaries deserve secretaries.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 12):
Where is the outcry in Toronto? Why is NOBODY in local media calling on fed govt to address this blatant inequity?

Cayman is correct, as usual. As one of the few non-socialists on this site, Mike sees things clearly. The culprit is the Liberal party, not the GTAA.

The GTAA if anything should be COMMENDED for all the capital improvements at the airport.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
tribird1011
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:58 pm

Hooray for that GTAA - they are are trying hard to live up to their motto

GTAA ===>> Go To Another Airport

It wouldn't be so bad being the most expensive airport in the world if we had world class attractions and such at the airport - but... the more you pay the less you get  Sad  Sad

As for outcry - I'm not expecting much (different level of gov't) but we have a mayor that get elected for one simple reason - he killed the bridge to the island (hopefully he won't run into the mayor of Chicago to give him some Meiggs-type advice)
kinda suspicious though bringing a few bulldozers and such on the ferry!!!

 banghead   banghead 
 
bman351
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting CayMan (Reply 12):
Where is the outcry in Toronto? Why is NOBODY in local media calling on fed govt to address this blatant inequity?

Because we have a stupid government that can't really do anything right. I'm sick and tired of all the stupid politics going on in this country. Not one of our stupid governmental parties be it Liberal, Conservative or NDP are getting along with one and another. However, if they are smart at all they will realize that this sounds really bad... "Toronto Pearson International Airport, the worlds most expensive airport!" Its just retarded.
 
Skydrol
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:04 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 15):
Cayman is correct, as usual. As one of the few non-socialists on this site, Mike sees things clearly. The culprit is the Liberal party, not the GTAA.

The culprit is BOTH

Liberal party: greed

GTAA: waste

(in the opinion of a big, bad right-wing redneck westerner)

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 15):
The GTAA if anything should be COMMENDED for all the capital improvements at the airport.

Yeah, like free baggage carts and a street pricing policy for airport restaurants as demonstrated possible by the WAA.



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yyz717
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:34 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 18):
The culprit is BOTH

Liberal party: greed

GTAA: waste

Nice try. These fees are DIRECTLY a result of everyone who voted Liberal. Don't try to hide!  Smile

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 18):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 15):
The GTAA if anything should be COMMENDED for all the capital improvements at the airport.

Yeah, like free baggage carts and a street pricing policy for airport restaurants as demonstrated possible by the WAA.

Umm.no. A new terminal. 3 new runways. Lou Terpin is a BUILDER of Toronto infrastructure. An economic HERO of Toronto. We should all be proud.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:00 pm

I love the new terminal, and when it becomes active it will be capable of handling more flights than the other three terminals combined. As to the overrun pads... So they are just going to move the 427 eh? Stupid idea. Why not train pilots to land on the right half of the runway? What needs to happen is to have the rent reduced at YYZ. And politically I would rather see the Liberals than Conservatives. Miller is a jerk who can not see the usefulness of YTZ. YHM will not replace YYZ, it just does not have the terminal space for anything other than 737, A320's and RJ's.
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sflaflight
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:12 pm

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 8):
At least in Toronto, you guys have an alternative AP in YHM.

Not really that alternative, y'know. Not if you're wanting to fly direct to Italy or Hungary or heck even just plain LHR or FRA, for that matter. So c'mon.

Very true Mark_D.  boxedin  But I'm thinking domestically. International is understandable. The same can be said for MOST metropolitan areas in North America. There always is an alternate AP closeby. NYC; BOS with Manchester and Providence; Cleveland with Akron; LAX, Burbank, Ontario etc. YHM could and should be marketed and developed as an alternative to YYZ. But it takes commitment. It's what other secondary airports have been doing worldwide. Look at Frankfurt. Some people will drive / ride trains for miles if the idea is sold and marketed correctly, ask Ryanair.

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 8):
Montreal's alternative commercial airport is BTV or YOW, both almost 21/2 hours away.

You have got to be kidding, here. At least in general terms anyway (not specifically for JetBlue customers shuttling between BTV and JFK, say)

I just mention this because when using a booking engine such as orbitz and expedia, you have the option of choosing AP nearby. When using that option, BTV and YOW are the two that come up. BTV always comes up first when searching by fares as they don't have the heavy tax burden.
 Wink


But, back to the GTAA. I think YYZ is a great airport. I'm not trying to down grade Canadian airports, believe me, I've been in much worse airports. It boils down to bureaucracy. The GTAA might want to be careful what they wish for. Westjet and other airlines might just get tired of paying, especially when most are tightening up their belts. Where will that leave the GTAA then?

BTW, nice call Cayman. Where is the outcry in the Tdot area anyway?..... good question! But then again, we are talking about the media, the federal gov't, the provincial gov't, the municiPAL gov't. Ah, how the canadian posts always turn into politics, he! he! It's in our blood!
 spin 
 
yow
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 10):
In what way does T1 have a poor layout and a tonne of wasted space? Also, what are your qualifications for making this statement?

Try comparing YYZ to DTW's new terminal. DTW came up with a far better layout and built a superior facility at a far lower cost. As for wasted space, why are the ceilings as tall as the CN Tower (an exaggeration of course but you know what I mean)? All that extra material to build those overly tall structures and the cost to heat or cool all that extra air in the building adds up to big time $$$. Lastly, YYZ relies wayyyyyyy too much on the airlines for revenues. For example, why isn't there a single concession stand in T1-New pre-security? Talk about lost revenue potential.

The GTAA is to be commended for doing what Transport Canada refused to ever do, but in many instances they've gone over the top.
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Yow (Reply 22):
For example, why isn't there a single concession stand in T1-New pre-security? Talk about lost revenue potential.

?? They have a restaurant and bar and gift/news shop with more to follow I am sure when the rest of the terminal opens.
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Olympus69
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Yow (Reply 22):
As for wasted space, why are the ceilings as tall as the CN Tower (an exaggeration of course but you know what I mean)? All that extra material to build those overly tall structures and the cost to heat or cool all that extra air in the building adds up to big time $$$

Ah. Vertical space. I thought you meant area. I suppose you could say that, though I like the airiness a lot better than the low ceilings of Terminal 2. I always thought that place was more appropriate for a subway station than an airport terminal.
 
krisyyz
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:01 am

In my opinion the federal government has to give the GTAA a break and come up with a fair rent system. On the other hand, the GTAA needs to get its debt and expansion costs under control.

I think the new T1 is awesome, but why didn't the GTAA calculate their development costs inline with keeping there fees reasonable. The new rwy 24L/6R is hardly used, and was constructed in a less than ideal place ( as a certain AF flight demonstrated). Now rwy 23L/5R will be built running very close to the AC maintenance area. Not to mention the interim infield terminal which will be demolished after 5 or so years of use and the new cargo area and GTAA hangers. That is a lot of development in a 10 year period.

Krisyyz
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 6):
. YYZ's T1-New IS a truly-amazing place and piece of airport



Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 25):
I think the new T1 is awesome,

Very true, T1 is a beauty, but IATA is totally against it, and the GTAA are beginning to regret it from what I hear becuase:
- Hard to keep hot during winter/cool during summer becuase of building material
- A huge amount of money was spent, and not only AC is alowed to use it.... a big waste
- It was not necessary at the present time, as we didn't overflow with passengers, and now with these fee rises, they'll be decreasing, trust me! (I'm flying from JFK for the next 2 trips, driving down, and even flying down is cheaper)
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Cruiser
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 25):
Not to mention the interim infield terminal which will be demolished after 5 or so years of use

Well, it is about 5 years old right now and there are no bulldozers sitting outside of it waiting to pull it down. Honestly, I don't think it is going anywhere for a long time. In the future, it will be a great place to segregate off flights if needed, or just provide extra terminal capacity during irregular operations (such as during a snowstorm).

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 25):
Now rwy 23L/5R will be built running very close to the AC maintenance area. Not to mention the interim infield terminal which will be demolished after 5 or so years of use and the new cargo area and GTAA hangers. That is a lot of development in a 10 year period.

Not to mention the central de-icing facility, the additions to T3, the new NAV Canada ATC tower, the APM, the infield tunnel, the co-generation plant, and a bunch of other small buildings.

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 26):
Very true, T1 is a beauty, but IATA is totally against it.

Have you spoken to IATA? Sure, Milton is a member of the board, but you must remember he is wearing two hats; both AC and IATA. One of the global initiatives of IATA is to provide simplified passenger processing. Pearson was one of the first airports to process 2.5 million passengers using CUSS Kiosks. As I am sure you are aware, kiosks cuts down significantly on the time it takes for each passenger to be processed, thus saving the airlines in staffing. The savings are huge! Pearson has 30 of these kiosks in T1, and they are what IATA wants in every airport. YYZ is a leader in the deployment of kiosks, and IATA should be very pleased with the progress. AC is the one who benefits the most from this IATA initiative at Pearson. T1 was built around many of IATA's 'best practices;' something that the old T1 was not!!!!

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 26):
GTAA are beginning to regret it from what I hear becuase:
- Hard to keep hot during winter/cool during summer becuase of building material

So, you are now an HVAC engineer? Please do not speculate on stuff you do not know about. I work at the airport, and have not heard one word about this.

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 26):
It was not necessary at the present time, as we didn't overflow with passengers

The old T1 was opened in 1964 and was designed to handle 3.5 million passengers. It was later modified to handle 6.5 million passengers. Yet, in 1990 at its peak, it processed over 9 million passengers. It was bursting at the seams, and needed to be replaced badly. It was overflowing with passengers, especially during irregular operations, at which time it was almost impossible to walk around due to the volume of people.

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 26):
now with these fee rises, they'll be decreasing, trust me!

According to the 2004 passenger figures, YYZ saw an increase of passngers in the neighbourhood 15%. Please tell me how +15% increase is actually a decrease in passengers.

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 26):
(I'm flying from JFK for the next 2 trips, driving down, and even flying down is cheaper)

JFK is a major worldwide hub. It is sometimes cheaper to fly from there, and sometimes not. It is just economics at work. The difference in your airline ticket probably works out to an extra $3.00, which is nowhere near the cost of gas it would cost to drive you down to another airport in the US. That said, it is much cheaper to fly domestically in the US, than transborder, so this may not always be the case.



I may sound like I absolutely love the GTAA. Well, that is not really the case. They came in, had a really terrible airport given to them infrastructure wise, and had to do something. They used an extremely elaborate architect. However, T1 did achieve what it was designed for; to create an open airy feeling, and to be wide open. There is a huge difference between T1 and T3, and T1 always feels less busy even with the same number of passengers coming/going. The passengers must now pay for that privilege, but the rent relief rumoured in the papers today (or the speeding up of it!) will help to ease the pressure.

The GTAA has a lot of work to do in finding cost-saving measures, and the fees are caused by both the GTAA, and the federal government. Toronto is paying 5 times what Vancouver is paying, yet the passenger volume difference is nowhere near that.

Lastly, it is odd how Jean Lapierre said that rent relief may be phased in earlier to help out YYZ. It comes just after spending a day with the GTA Liberal Caucus, and just before an imminent election is called. Obviously, this will become a campaign issue.

Anyways, I think this post is long enough,
James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:42 am

I'm so frustrated by reading this thread that all I can say is that I'm frustrated.

James, you already know my opinion on the GTAA, so I won't even go there.

The time is coming people, when this country will rebound against the government in one form or another. Look at the fricken surplus.. When a Government has a surplus as high as the one we have in this country, it's an indication that either

A) The economy is just bursting at the seams
B) We're over taxed.

I can't wait until the day we throw the Liberals out of office #1, and I can't wait until the day that the GTAA replaces their corrupt internals with more honest people.

As for T1New, I love the building, but I've heard a lot of people complain about the distances. Yes, it's not exactly science, but it's just a general discussion .
1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
swissy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:42 am

[quote=Lnglive1011yyz,reply=28]I'm so frustrated by reading this thread that all I can say is that I'm frustrated.

I could not agree more with you.....

[quote=Cruiser,reply=27]They came in, had a really terrible airport given to them infrastructure wise, and had to do something.

Did you work back then at YYZ airport??? Let say, it was a very good airport
back when I used to fly in to YYZ between 1991 and 1997 and believe me I used all 3 terminals back then.



[quote=Cruiser,reply=27]According to the 2004 passenger figures, YYZ saw an increase of passngers in the neighbourhood 15%. Please tell me how +15% increase is actually a decrease in passengers.

Maybe start looking at the numbers prior 9/11 and you will see that they are still a lot lower than it used to be. The average AC is smaller too.

If GTAA did such a great job I guess they would not be in that dilemma and it is so easy to blame the leases. The big difference between YVR and GTAA is
YVR is spending the funds a lot smarter than GTAA, maybe have a look at the newer YVR terminal section....... not bad at all and we can go on and on and on........ GTAA has no one else to blame then the self.

Cheers,
 
Legallykev
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:03 am

If I recall correctly, a couple of years ago, BA and an other airline had threatened to leave Toronto as the tax increase were just ridiculous especially considering the airline industry these days. Does anybody recall this?
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting Legallykev (Reply 30):
f I recall correctly, a couple of years ago, BA and an other airline had threatened to leave Toronto as the tax increase were just ridiculous especially considering the airline industry these days. Does anybody recall this?

Yep, but like all corrupt companies and governments, they manage to fudge the numbers so that all airlines pay the same fees, but some get reductions in other costs.

And if anyone here doesn't believe that's happening, they're just really not looking at the bigger picture.

Re: Westjet being lured from Hamilton. --> Yes, I agree it was a positive move and needed for Westjet, however, how it was done, I disagree.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
slawko
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:23 am

1) Airport rent increases were agreed and approved by the airlines back before the terminal project began. Just because the airlines financial situation has changed since the late 90's doesnt mean they can just re-neg on their commitments (Except air canada of course). Its like buying a huge house when times are good and when they aren't deciding you dont want to pay the mortgage anymore.

2) the ceilings as tall as the CN tower actually do more to conserve energy then they do to waste it, the design lets the air in teh building flow upward, and the light ceiling and glass walls act as an insulator keeping it warm in the winter and cool in the summer. Add to that the fact that the GTAA generates its own electricity, and the heating and cooling system is run by water that is heated by the GTAA. They can also export power to the grid if they want to, so really it could make them money in the long run.

3) T1 isnt as innefficient as Milty et all would like everyone to thing. Granted its not perfect and changes will have to be made in the future, it does what it was intended (and approved by the airlines) to do, function, make a statement and be a long lasting fixture of toronto infrastructure.

4)YHM as an alternative is about as big a joke as westjet being the alternative to Air Canada. There is no infrastructure to support anything more then a teal tail 737, not to mention parking, lounge and terminal facilities, customs, road access to anywhere that anyone would want to go in the GTAA (AKA not hamilton).

5) Given the fact that in the last year alone 3 new carriers have started flying to Toronto, one of which is locally based, with talk of a lot more plus added flights from existing carriers I dont see this gtaa fee issue as being of huge concern in the long run.

6) IM no fan of Turpen, but he did what he was brought in to do, and today you have a facility at YZ that will be sustainable for many years to come.

7)Federal rents/fees and taxes play a huge role here, and no one (particularl the pinko media) seems to want to say anything about it. The money that goes into general federal cash from airport rents and fees is insane! and what's worse is that none of that is reinvested in our industry. Its a joke and only the people who voted for the joke of a federal government that we have are to blame (Read most of ontario). to say that the Fed rent system is fair is like saying the ad scam was a good deal for taxpayers...Not to mention the fact that at the end of the lease after all the money the GTAA sank into building this airport the feds can turn around and take it all away (maybe even give it all away...)
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
swissy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:20 pm

[quote=Slawko,reply=32]5) Given the fact that in the last year alone 3 new carriers have started flying to Toronto, one of which is locally based, with talk of a lot more plus added flights from existing carriers I dont see this gtaa fee issue as being of huge concern in the long run.

How many quit in the past........

Maybe some guys remember when they started building T3??? Yes all airlines
agreed to it and paid for it, T1 new same thing, did any of you ever attend
a meeting with GTAA and AOC??? Ask GTAA what there cost measure is to safe money......I guess not to many here at the forum are able to answer that
because just like Lnglive1011yyz said it try to see the hole picture, think about it most airlines are suffering and try to find ways how to be more
efficient, what did GTAA do??..... oh yes I forgot GTAA sh.. does not stink
they are above every one.

Cheers,
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting Slawko (Reply 32):
4)YHM as an alternative is about as big a joke as westjet being the alternative to Air Canada. There is no infrastructure to support anything more then a teal tail 737, not to mention parking, lounge and terminal facilities, customs, road access to anywhere that anyone would want to go in the GTAA (AKA not hamilton).

I disagree with this statement.

They just added a DIRECT link right off the 403 to the airport. I used it last time I visited, and it was quite speedy and convenient..

Additionally, the airport @ YHM had plans to re-develop the terminal and the parking facilities, prior to the GTAA whore-ing themselves out to Westjet. Westjet was extremely happy and pleased with the planned expansion @ YHM, so I don't quite understand.

Had they not scaled back flights to next to nothing, and perhaps if some of the other airlines had jumped on the bandwagon, the GTAA would have had a really hard fight.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
Skydrol
Topic Author
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:55 pm

Swissy, thank you so much for bringing some sense to this.

I am truly disappointed with all the YYZ-locals who think Toronto is the center of the universe and no matter what they charge, or how inconvenient things become, passengers (and airlines) will just keep on coming to their expensive 'masterpiece' because they have to. Really bad business philosophy. GTAA should look to YVR, YEG, YYC and YWG for ideas on how to improve the experience for their customers instead of just choosing to fleece them even more.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
Nice try. These fees are DIRECTLY a result of everyone who voted Liberal. Don't try to hide!

1. I never have voted Liberal (provincial or federal)
2. I have no plans to vote Liberal
3. Sorry to disappoint you

That being said, in all fairness to the Liberals (and they don't deserve it), wouldn't ALL larger airport authorities in Canada be facing the same dire situation with landing fees and not just YYZ?

There are many others here who mention clearly see the waste, priority mismanagement and corruption within GTAA which has led to the situation YYZ faces now, however you choose to deny it. Maybe you are on the GTAA board of directors? If so, this response would be expected.

Yyz717, I believe you are so accustomed to waste and mismanagement living under three (3) levels of socialist government that you can no longer recognize when it occurs. Maybe you should reconsider YOUR vote so you don't drown in a sea of pink. But then you do have such a special place with Mr. Miller, Mr. Layton, Ms. Chow, Mr. McGuinty!!



LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
Cruiser
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:21 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 35):
That being said, in all fairness to the Liberals (and they don't deserve it), wouldn't ALL larger airport authorities in Canada be facing the same dire situation with landing fees and not just YYZ?

I am surprised that you make such a statement! Perhaps you haven't done your homework. I could just state the old: Pearson pays 66% of all airport rent in Canada while only processing about 33% of the traffic. Thus, Pearson is the most heavily taxed.

However, I think that IATA states it best by giving these numbers:

Quote:
On May 9 the government announced immediate rent cuts to all major airports in Canada – except Pearson.
In Vancouver, rent will drop by 63% by 2010.
In Montreal, rent will drop by 20% by 2010.
In Calgary, rent will drop by 60% by 2010.
For Toronto Pearson, rent will only drop by 6% by 2010.

Worse still, in 2006 the GTAA must begin paying back the rent that was deferred during the SARS crisis (about $40 million). This means rent will actually go up in 2006 at Pearson while it goes down for just about every other major airport in Canada.

Outside of the whole debate on fiscal responsibility and ethics on behalf of the GTAA, it certainly sounds like they got the raw end of the deal.

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/2005-11-16-01.htm

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 34):
prior to the GTAA whore-ing themselves out to Westjet.

Westjet wanted to move to Pearson, albeit not entirely. However, the GTAA negotiated with Westjet and BOTH SIDES came to an agreement. Airports and airlines are run as a business, and if an agreement makes sense, then it will proceed. Obviously, operating out of YYZ made more sense for Westjet from a strategical point of view, otherwise Westjet would have been (as you say) 'happy and pleased' to stay at YHM.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 33):
Ask GTAA what there cost measure is to safe money......I guess not to many here at the forum are able to answer that

What do you want to know? The GTAA provides an All-in type package. The airlines pay for landing the aircraft, the passenger processing fee and any floorspace which they rent.

Included in that price is:
1) All of the required computer systems (which let me tell you are not cheap!)
2) The use of kiosks (if they so choose)
3) Surrey service within the terminals
4) A service for moving disabled people to the airplane (which is carried out by the airline at other airports)
5) I believe de-icing, but I am not 100% on that.
Overall, these services save the airlines a lot of money, especially those carriers who only operate one or two flights a day from YYZ.

Before any project at YYZ proceeds, it goes through an extensive business case process, which must ultimately make the airport money. For example, in many offices, they have light sensors which activate the lights. If there is movement in the room, then the lights are on, and if there isn't, then the lights are automatically off. These are widespread, and although costly up front, will provide significant savings after the initial installation.

Another example of this is the APM. It will not be driven by a person, and instead will be completely automated. Overtime, that saves a lot of money, both in bus costs, fuel costs and especially labour costs. You never have to pay a machine time and a half because someone couldn't be bothered to show up for work.



Let us not blow this issue out of proportion either. Landing fees are only one cost of doing business. For example, if AC did not fly from Pearson, then I can assure you that their previous quarter would have looked much poorer. Pearson is essential to their network. Even though AC balks at the one line of their expense sheet, AC would be nowhere near as profitable without Pearson. That said, the GTAA still needs to work at reducing its debt, and working on adding other revenue-generating services within the terminal.

Lastly, no one really seems to care when an airline goes out and buys 50 new widebody planes worth over $6Billion. Yet, a $3 Billion dollar terminal is way too expensive, even though it will last 2-3 times longer than the planes, and can be used in so many different ways to generate revenue.

James

[Edited 2005-11-19 07:33:20]
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
swissy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:13 pm

[quote=Cruiser,reply=36]4) A service for moving disabled people to the airplane (which is carried out by the airline at other airports)

If you know the story behind that, please tell everyone, do you know what they charge for this service???? I do not think so......

[quote=Cruiser,reply=36]Overall, these services save the airlines a lot of money, especially those carriers who only operate one or two flights a day from YYZ.

Most of your listings is not saving any money for the airlines, why GTAA is trying to force all airlines to use there services, all the fancy names for all
these company's and look behind the wall and you start seeing all the
GTAA bs they started.

Remember most of these airlines relay on the revenue flying in to YYZ,
as it is the biggest market in Canada based on the surrounding population,
and GTAA knows that.

Every company witch is present at YYZ are trying to find new ways of saving
money since 9/11 what did GTAA do ..... I mean saving money before spending millions.........

Cheers,
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting Slawko (Reply 32):
and today you have a facility at YZ that will be sustainable for many years to come.

For all the years that I've worked at Pearson, all I've heard is T1 (old) is too small, too old, too ugly, too difficult to navigate, parking garage is too decrepit etc...T2 is too long, too far to go to any gate, should have been made into the cargo facility that was intended, too claustrophobic etc.....T3 is too over-crowded, too long to walk from end to end (US arr to Int'l dep) too expensive to park, too expensive to eat in, too long to wait to go through security etc.....YYZ is laid out too stupid, too far from terminal to terminal, too difficult to navigate etc... Jesus H. Christ!! By putting it all under one roof will alleviate most of those problems. It will have a capacity of 50 #%$@EN million pax for the next 25-30 years when it gets completed. In 15 years if this sort of investment was not done now, all these complaints would resurface in the face of the cut and paste answer that would have been done to a problem that will never go away. It takes intestinal fortitude to have a vision, AND STICK WITH IT.

While I'm at it:

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 35):
I am truly disappointed with all the YYZ-locals who think Toronto is the center of the universe

YYZ is not the center of the universe, last time I checked, YYZ was the center of this topic : Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?
 
slawko
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:16 am

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 38):
Quoting Slawko (Reply 32):
and today you have a facility at YZ that will be sustainable for many years to come.

For all the years that I've worked at Pearson, all I've heard is T1 (old) is too small, too old, too ugly, too difficult to navigate, parking garage is too decrepit etc...T2 is too long, too far to go to any gate, should have been made into the cargo facility that was intended, too claustrophobic etc.....T3 is too over-crowded, too long to walk from end to end (US arr to Int'l dep) too expensive to park, too expensive to eat in, too long to wait to go through security etc.....YYZ is laid out too stupid, too far from terminal to terminal, too difficult to navigate etc... Jesus H. Christ!! By putting it all under one roof will alleviate most of those problems. It will have a capacity of 50 #%$@EN million pax for the next 25-30 years when it gets completed. In 15 years if this sort of investment was not done now, all these complaints would resurface in the face of the cut and paste answer that would have been done to a problem that will never go away. It takes intestinal fortitude to have a vision, AND STICK WITH IT.

Isnt that what I just said? with "and today you have a facility at YZ that will be sustainable for many years to come."
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:42 am

My addition to this thread, simply put, is for those here that do not have the first hand exposure of the airport and its well established complaints (founded or not). I takes more than just to read a couple Globe and Mail and Macleans Magazine articles to get a true sense of what it has been like to work here for the last few years. I'm sorry, if by quoting you it did not imply enough, I agreed with you and felt I could contribute a little more. And also, I don't mean to imply that you only know what you read in the papers or mags. Having seen your profile, you too have first hand info, but for those who don't I just wanted to highlight the comlaints that are as old as the original graveyard that was in the midfield.
 
slawko
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:48 am

HAHA OK just checking  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
yow
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 34):
Additionally, the airport @ YHM had plans to re-develop the terminal and the parking facilities, prior to the GTAA whore-ing themselves out to Westjet. Westjet was extremely happy and pleased with the planned expansion @ YHM, so I don't quite understand.

As I recall the YHM airport authority was literally only weeks away from breaking ground on a new building when WS made their at the time shocking announcement.

I wonder how much more/less (I bet it would be more) profitable WS would be right now if they had kept the bulk of their ops at YHM with YYZ remaining as a strong point-to-point base for WestJet?

But getting back on topic we could literally go around in circles debating the changes the GTAA has made to YYZ. We can all agree T1 Old and T2 needed to be replaced, it's how they did it that's spurred most of the debate. I think we all agree the rent charged to all NAS airports, not just YYZ, is a pile of crap, and amounts to nothing more than a hidden tax.
 
swissy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:28 am

[quote=YOW,reply=42]As I recall the YHM airport authority was literally only weeks away from breaking ground on a new building when WS made their at the time shocking announcement.

Yes that is correct..........

No one is questioning the building of the new T1, as anyone working at YYZ
would agree with me, it is the irresponsible spending of funds / special
projects........................

Think about it

Cheers,
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:43 pm

Quoting Swissy (Reply 43):
No one is questioning the building of the new T1, as anyone working at YYZ
would agree with me, it is the irresponsible spending of funds / special
projects........................

I am a simple caveman, and thus I don't understand what you are saying. Do you agree with the building of T1?(No one is questioning..) Or do you think it is irresponsible? Either way, reply 38 says all that I have to say.
 
swissy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:38 am

T1 was planned well before 9/11, everyone knows that the old T1 & T2
was out dated, at that point all airlines agreed to build it back in the
90's.
All the number games provided by GTAA is fine and dandy, however if I look back the last 4 years YYZ lost more business than getting new airlines in to
YYZ.............

Regardless how cramped the good old T1 was I had a lot of fun working
there........ maybe some folks still remember that time.

GTAA is unable to stream line there operations based on the situation the airline business is in, money is wasted on b... s..., remember GTAA may know how to run an airport (sort of) but that's as far they should go.

Cheers,
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:45 am

Look at the loooong view guys....the new T1 will form the basis of YYZ airport for the next 50 years. I'm sure the ROI on this terminal will make it a very lucrative investment. The high capital investments are all up front though.

Looks like the Liberal government (who imposed the fees on the GTAA causing the high GTAA fees) will fall tomorrow. So don't vote Liberal in th next election if you don't agree with the GTAA fees. Otherwise......you have no credibility on this issue.

N
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
swissy
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:52 am

[quote=Yyz717,reply=46]Looks like the Liberal government (who imposed the fees on the GTAA causing the high GTAA fees) will fall tomorrow. So don't vote Liberal in th next election if you don't agree with the GTAA fees. Otherwise......you have no credibility on this issue.

In general it makes no difference between all of the political parties, every one witch believes it would be deferent with someone else on Top is a fool.
All parties are the same lots of promises and no action once they are on top,
they are spending our hard earned money very easy.

Think about how much the lease is GTAA pays every year and try to figure out
how many landings GTAA has a year...... also do not forget to count all the
business witch are located on the airport and pay rent (premium dollars).
Has anyone had a close look at the GTAA annual financial report.........
yes that is correct the lease for the airport is a small portion in a multi billion
business filled with holes................

Cheers,
 
cayman
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RE: Gtaa Digging Grave For YYZ?

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting Swissy (Reply 45):
All the number games provided by GTAA is fine and dandy, however if I look back the last 4 years YYZ lost more business than getting new airlines in to
YYZ.............

That's just objectively incorrect. Pax numbers have increased substantially, and net gainer of ailrines--this DESPITE Liberal govt mismanagement and corruption.

Neil is spot on again---vote Liberal and you have no right to criticize GTAA. That is pure hypocrisy.