ANCFlyer
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Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:13 am

Is this a common occurence? Twice in four years two Heavy Jets have departed from ANC using Taxiway Y rather than the adjacent RWY 32.

China Airlines did it four years ago. And apparently, on Nov 5, Eva Air had an MD-11 do the same thing.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7207886p-7119617c.html

Gotta laugh at the Newspaper describing the difference between a runway and a taxiway . . .
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Gotta laugh at the Newspaper describing the difference between a runway and a taxiway . . .

Made for a good laugh, but it's probably the best way to describe it to the flying public.
Too bad the article doesn't mention what the weather conditions were. Not gonna defend the pilot's decision to depart, but there must have been a reason he and his FO mistook a taxiways for a runway.
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:58 am

Maybe it's time for ANC to adjust some signs and light systems....
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ZakHH
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:02 am

Hmm... if you take a look at this northward "approach" to ANC... I can understand you can confuse the east taxiway with a runway (it looks rather suitable for takeoffs / landings  Wink ). But imagining a passenger a/c taking off from the west taxiway...  hypnotized 

Btw, here is the "visual approach" (a bit steep maybe  Wink ) for Seattle, heading south - I am not a pilot, but you could mistake the west taxiway for a runway at first glance, could you?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 2):
Maybe it's time for ANC to adjust some signs and light systems....

I might have thought so too - except that was done this summer. In preparation for FedEx and UPS and the A380, the Taxiway Y got a complete once over, and 32/14 was resurfaced, remarked and relighted . . . .

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 3):
Hmm... if you take a look at this northward "approach" to ANC...

This picture is 2 years out of date . . . Taxiway Y - to the right of RWY 32 is wider now. And there is a new Taxiway to the left of RWY 32, which can be seen under constrution in the photo you're showing.
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N1120A
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:27 am

Actually, planes are Big Bear City airport in Big Bear Lake, California currently take off from the parallel taxiway as the main runway has been undergoing reconstruction. It is not the same thing as what happened at ANC, but is funny.
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kaitak
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:28 am

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7207886p-7119617c.html

Yes, I have to say I noticed that very interesting description of a runway. Maybe the best place for it is in the EVA/CAL manuals.

At least the MD11 has better takeoff performance than the A340!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:33 am

"Runways are the broad concrete expanses where aircraft take off and land. Taxiways are the narrower access roads used by jets and planes to reach the runways for takeoff, or move to the terminal after landing."

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

I almost fell out of my chair reading that one.
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A350
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:47 am

I wonder why
  • this wasn't detected by ground radar and
  • a/c don't have advanced satellite navigation and electronic airport maps detailed enough to see even at bad weather where you are. Is the big ground navigation screen at the A380 really something found on no other airplane?

A350
 
threepoint
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:48 am

You know, for the intended readers of that article, that's really not that bad of a description. While I may have reconsidered the use of the word 'roads', I think the author did a fine job explaining to the non-flyers what the difference is.

However, this comment: "At least eight times since 1999, aircraft have mistaken a certain taxiway for a runway. Three aircraft actually landed, the Times said, while five changed their flight paths at the last minute" referring to landing gaffes at SEA, speaks to the complacency of the pilots. Whether or not you are flying in IMC or visually, there are many visual and navigational clues to alert you if you're lined up on the wrong stretch of pavement. There's no excuse for ignoring or failing to notice an offset localiser. (Knock on wood that I don't do the same thing in future...)
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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breiz
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:50 am

Maybe ANC should widen the taxiway to improve safety  Smile
 
HPRamper
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:54 am

I also agree that for the average newspaper reader, that description was very good and to the point.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:16 am

Not really funny at all. Remember the Singapore 747 that took off
on a closed runway in TPE a couple years ago?
 
ACDC8
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:29 am

Couple of questions about this. First of all, did this happen at night or at day? What were the WX conditions like? VMC or IMC?

I would assume that something like this could only happen during daytime IMC conditions. At night, you have 2 very different lighting systems (white for runways and blue for taxiways), so I couldn't imagine getting those mixed up, even in IMC conditions. The pavement markings are also very different and normally unmistakable, but in IMC conditions, it may have been possible to not see the markings clearly.

Anyone who could let us know what the WX conditions were like, that would be great.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
. Taxiway Y - to the right of RWY 32 is wider now. And there is a new Taxiway to the left of RWY 32, which can be seen under constrution in the photo you're showing.

That's taxiway "R" on the east side of rwy 32. Taxiway "Y" is the newly constructed taxiway on the west side of 32. I'm afraid it doesn't look like a rwy; it has a big yellow stripe down the middle and for the night flyers lots of blue lights.
 
A342
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6):
At least the MD11 has better takeoff performance than the A340!


This has been discussed to death and is just wrong. The 342/343 just climb a bit slower, which is not anymore the case with the 345/346.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 13):
Not really funny at all. Remember the Singapore 747 that took off
on a closed runway in TPE a couple years ago?

Spot on.

Somebody needs to get fired.

Taxiways and runways have different coloured lights dont they? I dont care what anyone says about an honest mistake - thats not acceptable. If stuff that blindingly obvious is going awry, then who can tell about the harder stuff to spot?
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xjramper
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 12):
Not really funny at all. Remember the Singapore 747 that took off
on a closed runway in TPE a couple years ago?

No one is laughing about the incident, they are laughing at the article's description of the difference of the runway/taxiway description.

XJR
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Tom in NO
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 2):
Maybe it's time for ANC to adjust some signs and light systems....

ANC's signage and lighting systems are regulated (just like every other US FAA-certificated airport) by the FAA and its Federal Air Regulations, in this case FAR Part 139. FAA also issues various compliance guidance through its Advisory Circulars. Signage and lighting are both covered in various Advisory Circulars.

I would say pilot familiarity, or in this case the lack thereof, would be the issue here, not signage, and unless it was not functioning at the time, neither is lighting.

Tom at MSY
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skysurfer
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:34 am

IIRC, when Fargo's main runway was being reworked last year aircraft routinely used the taxiway to land/take off from. Granted, it was extended slightly and there was no ILS available, but they still did it. The viewing enclosure was closed for ages due to safety distances etc, buggers!

Cheers
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Argonaut
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 19):
when Fargo's main runway was being reworked last year aircraft routinely used the taxiway to land/take off from

Same thing happens at LGW when maintenance/construction works takes place on the (one and only) main runway. The main taxiway was purposely widened and strengthened to make it possible. I never feel comfortable about it, though--it places the main terminal building more or less right on the extended centre-line.
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loisencroach
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 13):
Couple of questions about this. First of all, did this happen at night or at day? What were the WX conditions like? VMC or IMC?

Weather was clear - RVR was runway length and better. It happened at night. The tower is pushing the investigation. Airport 10 was in the vicinity of the "incident", but didn't see anything strange. There is no way to prove it with the CCTV's limited nighttime range.
 
pilot21
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:47 pm

Quoting Argonaut (Reply 20):
Same thing happens at LGW when maintenance/construction works takes place on the (one and only) main runway. The main taxiway was purposely widened and strengthened to make it possible. I never feel comfortable about it, though--it places the main terminal building more or less right on the extended centre-line.

I remember an incident at LGW when they were working on the main runway as well, it must have been about 10yrs ago now, but an Air Malta plane landed on the inner taxiway (the taxiway for the main taxiway/backup runway), it was night time and the pilots got confused with the lights, so it has happened in quite a few places. The question has to be how seriously airports/carriers are taking this type of incident compared to runway incursions? Unfortunately it may take a collision between an aircraft on a legitimate taxiway and one that has mistakenly lined up with the wrong strip before it's dealt with seriously??
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csturdiv
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Is this a common occurence? Twice in four years two Heavy Jets have departed from ANC using Taxiway Y rather than the adjacent RWY 32.

I know it is not commercial and it is under different circumstances, but several years ago when the idiot mayor of Chicago closed down Meigs in the middle of the night, he had bulldozers and other equipment destroy the runway. In doing this, he stranded numerous airplanes that were parked at Meigs, and they took off from the taxiway.

Craig
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qxeguy
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:20 pm

I like "...used by jets and planes..."
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L-188
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:23 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Is this a common occurence? Twice in four years two Heavy Jets have departed from ANC using Taxiway Y rather than the adjacent RWY 32.

Actually China Air tried to use the "K" taxiway from the 32 extension for T/O.

Y was still under construction back then so China Air couldn't head north like EVA just did, they had to go west.
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HAL
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:52 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):
Y was still under construction back then so China Air couldn't head north like EVA just did, they had to go west.

Yep, China Air took off to the west, starting from nearly half way down the taxiway - that's why they clipped their gear on the way out. This new one was on a taxiway, but one that was plenty long enough.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 3):
Btw, here is the "visual approach" (a bit steep maybe ) for Seattle, heading south - I am not a pilot, but you could mistake the west taxiway for a runway at first glance, could you?

Yes, as has been discussed here recently: X Doesn't Mark The Spot (by HikesWithEyes Nov 13 2005 in Civil Aviation) And it is especially true in wet winter afternoon conditions with the sun glaring off the surfaces. You can't see a thing on the runway during the approach, and the taxiway has been used a couple of times for landings. I'm not saying it is OK to do, just understandable.

HAL
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Scotland1979
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:11 pm

Laughing about that.... how about paint the whole runways neon yellow or orange? help Captains to know the correct ones. $$$ LOL!
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HAWK21M
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:21 pm

Don't the Runways have Markings  Smile.
How was the Weather at the time.
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ACDC8
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:32 pm

Quoting Loisencroach (Reply 21):
Weather was clear - RVR was runway length and better. It happened at night. The tower is pushing the investigation. Airport 10 was in the vicinity of the "incident", but didn't see anything strange. There is no way to prove it with the CCTV's limited nighttime range.

Strange how one would not notice the different lighting colors in a situation like this. I'll be very interested to find out the results of the investigation.
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EGTESkyGod
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 16):
Taxiways and runways have different coloured lights dont they?

In addition, Runway markings are white, taxiway markings are yellow. Even if it was night, and they couldn't tell the difference between green lights and white lights, the fact they have the Landing Lights on means they can look down at the taxiway and see the great big yellow line down the middle.
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ZakHH
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 26):
Yes, as has been discussed here recently: X Doesn't Mark The Spot (by HikesWithEyes Nov 13 2005 in Civil Aviation) And it is especially true in wet winter afternoon conditions with the sun glaring off the surfaces. You can't see a thing on the runway during the approach, and the taxiway has been used a couple of times for landings. I'm not saying it is OK to do, just understandable.

Usually, I would say that being a pilot means that you are not allowed to make any mistakes. Never ever. They have to have the highest possible awareness of a situation at any time. That's their job.

Reading the article that is linked in the "X"-Thread you refer to, it may seem too easy to blame the pilots here, even if it may sound disturbing to confuse a taxiway with the runway, especially when you are aware of the tricky situation.

But if a pilot is aware of the runway situation in SEA, and if he realizes during approach that the visibility is very bad - should he not be aware of the risk he is running into? Is there no chance to obtain help from the tower?

If he cannot see a thing, you cannot blame him for not processing information he cannot gather visually - but wouldn't that be the point where you would call the tower, saying "hello, folks, I've reached my limits - please help me touching down on the right piece of concrete"?

The pilot of the mentioned AC Jazz said he was startled to hear that he landed on the taxiway, as he was very aware of the runway situation. And that is something I do not understand. No intention to blame him, but doesn't that sound a bit like someone who maybe was too proud to confess that he was in a situation he was unable to control anymore?

No accusation intended - just would like to hear maybe some pilots' opinions on this.
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csturdiv
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:22 pm

Quoting Qxeguy (Reply 24):
Yup, we got BOTH KINDS up here!

The Blues Brother's Bob's Country Bunker of aviation.  smile 

Craig
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 18):
would say pilot familiarity, or in this case the lack thereof, would be the issue here, not signage, and unless it was not functioning at the time, neither is lighting.

Sorry but there really isn't any excuse for this. As they say "that's why you get the big bucks" You don't make mistakes like this. Situational awareness must be paramount. Both pilots must have the taxi chart out and if there is ever ANY question about a/c location you STOP and confirm by chart and or ATC before continuing. I've been questioned by ground before as to why I've stopped on the taxiway and in some cases told in an irritated voice "just continue straight and make the first left" but this is better than being on the opposite side of the table with a glass of water answering those embarrassing questions why you took off on a taxiway in a heavy jet. If it's an unfamiliar airport that's all the more reason to PAY ATTENTION.
 
goaliemn
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Csturdiv (Reply 23):
In doing this, he stranded numerous airplanes that were parked at Meigs, and they took off from the taxiway.

Alot of the stranded planes had to get special waivers from their insurance companies to do this, plus the FAA had to issue some waiver as well.

insurance companies usually don't cover takeoffs or landings from anything but a runway, except in emergency landings. Thats why Daley had a backup plan to truck the airplanes off of miegs to another airport for departure.
 
gritzngravee
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:48 pm

FCO is similar also, RWY's 17R/35L, 17C/35C and 17L/35R, between 17C/35C and 17L/35R there is a taxi way that runs parallel between both sets of runways. I remember taxing out to 35C and noticing it used to be a taxiway you could see the yellow markings on the runway where they had been removed or faded. I could see the runway and taxiway at FCO being mistaken but then again being a pilot you should have your charts and maps out beforre taxi to route the taxi preciseley. I'm guessing it was converted to a runway when they expanded to make the 35R/17L runways and made the taxiway 17C/35C. Just a thought haven't found any literature or proof this was the case.
 
haj96
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting Qxeguy (Reply 24):
"...used by jets and planes..."

Can anyone explain me the difference between a jet and a plane?  Wow!
I always thought that´s the same  yes .
Well, you learn something new every day  wink .

regards,
haj96
 
socalfive
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 31):
Usually, I would say that being a pilot means that you are not allowed to make any mistakes. Never ever. They have to have the highest possible awareness of a situation at any time. That's their job.

AND, there were TWO pilots simultaneously making the same mistake. So much for Redundancy.

As mentioned in previous posts, China Air, EVA Air, Twice now? Anyone other than me seeing a pattern emerge?
 
Okie
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:09 am

I have been to SEA several times as a passenger and I have always wondered why the heck they put taxiway "T" out on the west boundary of the airport. I am not a pilot nor a controller but I would normally expect to see the taxiway between the two runways not on the outer boundary of the airport.
I would consider SEA an unusual configuration in many respects. I not trying to relieve pilots of situational awareness but you have to figure the human element and visual clues with airport design.
Before a few changes were made at the airport over the years it was pretty confusing for first time visitors on the terminal side as well.

Okie
 
bobnwa
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
"Runways are the broad concrete expanses where aircraft take off and land. Taxiways are the narrower access roads used by jets and planes to reach the runways for takeoff, or move to the terminal after landing."

If you were writing an article for a newspaper about this incident, how would you describe the difference between a runway and a taxiway.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:23 am

I can see it now....speed bumps for all taxiways.  Yeah sure
 
Arrow
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting XJRamper (Reply 17):
No one is laughing about the incident, they are laughing at the article's description of the difference of the runway/taxiway description.

The average A.netter would write this in such convoluted aviation jargon that no one without a pilot's license would know what the hell he/she was talking about. Other than "jets and planes," which I'm guessing was an attempt to differentiate between airliners and small stuff, the description is bang-on and no one out there -- NO ONE -- should have any problem with it. God knows the media has perpetrated some lovely screw-ups when writing about aviation, but this is not an example.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
jush
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:27 am

Well you may get confused with taxi-/runway on a photo taken from above or whatever but if you're actually on it it shouldn't be a problem to determine what you're on, don't you think? Am i wrong here.
Ususally it's even another sort of tarmac on the taxiways but anyway you should determine what you're on by

- wideness of the "thing" (there may be some taxiways as wide as a runway)
- lights (Usually different lights on a taxiway than on a runway)
- no center stripes but a usually continuous yellow line
- anything else?

If you're on this and pulling the levers up for takeoff you better don't

Regards
jush
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nudelhirsch
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:02 am

One thing is the approach. You have the charts and (if visible) the lights, but you know exactly what you go into. SEA supposedly has in ILS system and if visibility is clear enough you see the lack of drainages off the taxiway, which indicates to most pilots that it might not be a runway.

Takeoff is a different deal though, like mentioned before, there are different colors for lighting, different colors for the markings, taxiways have those yellow lighted signs next to it, runways have huge markings...

Even if you should confuse a taxiway and a runway - once you realise you are not rolling over piano-keys and huge numbers you might consider aborting takeoff.

Then, is there any operation at all when you do not see the lights at all? If you cannot even see the runway border lights or the taxiway lights? I say with all the awesome navigational equipment involved, if you cannot see the edge (including the lights) of where you are, you better not throttle up...

I think it is unexcusable and I wonder what those pilots have thought...
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loisencroach
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:06 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 43):
think it is unexcusable and I wonder what those pilots have thought...

They denied it immediately after departure.
 
boeingfanyyz
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:52 am

I'd love to see the A380 try to pull a quick one like the EVA MD-11!!!  laughing 
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asqx
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 38):
I have been to SEA several times as a passenger and I have always wondered why the heck they put taxiway "T" out on the west boundary of the airport.

Taxiway Tango was built as part of the 3rd runway expansion at Sea-Tac. Eventually there will be an 8,500ft runway to the west of the taxiway. Since any plane landing on this outer runway would need to cross two active runways to get to the terminal, they needed someplace to put those plane waiting to cross, so they built a taxiway running the full length of the current runway 34L/16R.
 
L-188
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RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 37):
AND, there were TWO pilots simultaneously making the same mistake. So much for Redundancy.

I am going to get in trouble with this, but I have my doubt about how effective CRM concepts have been integrated into Asian carriers, particlarly those where there is a well establish tradition of repecting your elders.

When I was going to school at UND, they had classes of China Air pilots learning to fly. The first class, was a video tape that talked about their need to ask questions. They did that because in their culture apparently it was considered an insult to the professor....meant he wasn't doing his job.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
loisencroach
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:56 am

RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:59 am

I took CRM last semester. You're absolutely right....Asian carriers have a higher "cockpit gradient" because of their culture, which makes the concept of CRM even harder to swallow.
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Take Off From Taxiway - Again

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting Csturdiv (Reply 32):
The Blues Brother's Bob's Country Bunker of aviation.

The Good Ol' Blues Brothers...Boys...Airlines...
This isn't where I parked my car...

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