gokmengs
Posts: 895
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All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:47 am

Well apparently he is Delta Master Executive Council chairman, but with people with attitudes like this, the DL pilots have no chance of getting what they want.Not to mention the terribble PR they are getting from the american public in support(or lack there of) for their "cause". Also I can't not believe this guy has the power to destroy a company and destroy the life of 40000+ employees life, if DL pilots strike and the company goes out of business it will directly and indirectly affect a great deal of people.
Here is the article but check out some of his quotes:
"This is not about revolution. It's about resolution," the chairman of the union's executive committee, Lee Moak, told the crowd. "We will take this company back. It will be returned to its rightful owner — the employees of Delta Air Lines."
Granted DL and every company alike is nothing with out their employees but isn't he being ridicilously communist like is that the attitude he should have.
and this gets the cake;"I would never bluff," Moak said. "I'm very direct. What I say is what I'll do." Great go ahead and destroy peoples lives to satisfy your ego, I don't how people like this gets these positions that have so much at stake.
P.S. In other threads people are talking why G W Bush doesn't interfere, or how the govt did interfere for AA. Is G W really this kind of Texas fanatic? Is this not getting the governments attention.

[Edited 2005-11-16 03:01:29]
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wjcandee
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:46 am

Dude...relax.

It's politics, not reality. Don't try to be rational about politics. Extreme positions are part of the game. Everybody postures, and then, at the last minute, voila!, an agreement. If this guy actually caused a shutdown of the airline, he'd have to move to Botswana. People have long memories in Atlanta.
 
gokmengs
Posts: 895
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 1):
Dude...relax.

I wish you used that comment for Mr. Moak!
Who is he to say that "I'm very direct. What I say is what I'll do." Doesn't he know whats at stake?

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 1):
t's politics, not reality. Don't try to be rational about politics.

I know that much about politics believe me my point is his attitude, I find it very negative and destructive, Just what DL needs!
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Pope
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:40 pm

Quoting Gokmengs (Thread starter):
It will be returned to its rightful owner — the employees of Delta Air Lines."

The shareholders be damned. Airlines, like all other companies, are to be run for the benefit of their investors.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 1):
If this guy actually caused a shutdown of the airline, he'd have to move to Botswana. People have long memories in Atlanta

 rotfl  That is the funniest thing I've read on here in a long time. But its totally true as well. If Delta were to shut down, he would have a bounty on his head extending from ATL north to CVG and west to SLC, basically country wide. Its either move to Botswana or pay for 24/7 armed security, complete with armored truck.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:18 am

I hope Capt Moak is right...would be nice to bring the company back to the Old Delta.

My dad was at the rally yesterday...said it was pretty good, fairley crowded...alot of pissed off folks. Simply put, they're tired of putting up with the crap. Rightfully so. So, here's Wednesday!

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
bucky707
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:59 am

Kinda ironic actually. Delta did everything they could to get rid of Malone and help get Moak in power, thinking he was a wimp. Guess what.....he's not.
 
gokmengs
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 5):
My dad was at the rally yesterday...said it was pretty good, fairley crowded...alot of pissed off folks. Simply put, they're tired of putting up with the crap. Rightfully so. So, here's Wednesday!

No disrespect to your father but instead of putting up with what you call"crap" they will strike and be unemployed not to mention make thousands lose their jobs? is that his choice
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DeltaGuy
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:35 am

Unfortunately it's come down to being that choice, and I can speak from what he's told me and say yes. Quite a bitter pill to swallow though. He works outside DL as well, so it wouldn't be total unemployment.

I understood the mood at the rally to be complete frustration, at all the Crap that's been going on. (Yes, I said crap...what else would you call the latest happenings? Blessings? )

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
gokmengs
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
Unfortunately it's come down to being that choice, and I can speak from what he's told me and say yes.

That is really sad.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
He works outside DL as well, so it wouldn't be total unemployment.

Good for him. Too bad not all of them are that lucky.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
(Yes, I said crap...what else would you call the latest happenings? Blessings? )

You misunderstood me, I was referring to paycuts, which I thought what you were referring to by calling crap, sadly the company is going through hard times and DL pilots need to pitch in (don't get me wrong mgmt should too). I believe even with the paycuts they would be around the industry standarts am I wrong?
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incitatus
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
Unfortunately it's come down to being that choice, and I can speak from what he's told me and say yes. Quite a bitter pill to swallow though.

That's a choice quite similar to that of a suicide bomber. Can't have it, so nobody can! Booom.
Stop pop up ads
 
skibum9
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
The shareholders be damned. Airlines, like all other companies, are to be run for the benefit of their investors

Come on Pope...get in board. Don't you know that the pilots don't care about the investors, let alone their fellow DL employees. You should be ashamed of thinking such thoughts! Everyone, either directly or indirectly contributing to an airline, employee or investor, should be looking to solely improve the lifestyle of the pilots! Come on it's a team effort!  banghead 
Tailwinds!!!
 
TL8490
Posts: 132
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:48 am

I am starting to think that Mr. Moak and the other pilots on here should follow their conscience. My feeling is...and it is only mine based on what I have read, is that about 20% of the pilots want to take down the airline. So when that 20% does not show up to work, Delta and the CUSTOMERS will be the big winner in the long run.

It's that same 20% that walks around with the stickers on their luggage and does not speak to passengers anyway...so let them go...I am sure there are a much greater number of Comair or ASA pilots that would rather work mainline anyway....

In a phase....FLY BE FREE ....LET THE OPPRESSION OF $100000 PAYCHECKS END!!!!
 
commavia
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
Unfortunately it's come down to being that choice, and I can speak from what he's told me and say yes.

If that is how Delta pilots feel, then they should go out on strike. It's unfortunate, but it's their feeling.

This whole moral dilemma some propagate -- about either side -- is unfair and unreasonable. If Delta pilots realistically believe that their best interests would be served by striking, and subsequently putting their employer out of business (most likely), then that is their opinion, their feeling, and their prerogative, whether we like it or not, and they have every right to it.

After having considered the ramifications for their families, their communities, their fellow Delta employees, and Delta's customers, and coming to their conclusion -- than they should do what they think is best, and then live with the consequences for themselves and others, whatever those may be.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Thread starter):
It will be returned to its rightful owner — the employees of Delta Air Lines."

What a crock! No judge anywhere is going to "return" Delta to the employees.

Look at United, an "employee owned" company. Even their equity stake in the company didn't help them one bit when it came to layoffs, pay and benefit cuts, etc...

[Edited 2005-11-17 00:43:07]
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
gokmengs
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 14):
Look at United, an "employee owned" company. Even their equity stake in the company didn't help them one bit when it came to layoffs, pay and benefit cuts, etc...

[Edited 2005-11-17 00:43:07]

I believe you man, and you can check out the link I thats exactly the words of the guy leading the pilots.
Guys by the way for everyone who is interested in this matter should read this DL F/A's post it is on an other thread.
Here is the thread: Delta's Pilots Could Go On Strike (by Alberchico Nov 14 2005 in Civil Aviation)
and here is the post from DALIFS I hope he doesn't mind, but its the best post I have read about this issue
Posted by DALIFS on Nov 15, 2005
Okay. I am a fairly new member here and I will be careful not to let emotions spill into my comments too much. However, I am reading through all of the above observations and the bantering and I am amazed how little most know about Delta, our history and our culture. I may expand the “envelope” a little here, as much unpleasantness and several statements based on ignorance regarding pay cuts for all Delta workgroups have been brought up and compared by members in this thread.

I am a Deltoid with tenure of two decades. I was hired during very good times with enormous growth and wealth beyond belief. Our management teams of the old Delta were pro-employees. We were paid tremendous salaries (especially pilots and flight attendants) being at the top of the scales continuously in straight pay, while benefits, credit rigs etc. as “hidden” income were not always acknowledged as income but as entitlements.

A potential pilot strike action would, as we can all imagine, be the end of Delta. I can assure you though, while we do have some very radical pro ALPA not clear thinking pilots, you will see the majority of our cockpit crew members cross picket lines. They know they have had a phenomenal ride for decades. In my conversations with our cockpit crews, they are keenly aware that a strike will “restore the profession” straight to the unemployment office. There are very few pilot jobs to be had and a future without Delta employment means starting over the flying career with a low paying commuter, freighter or Middle East airline. Many of them have already done their homework and they are as scared as the rest of us. Have the pilots taken a huge pay cut? Sure, no question; but remember that the previous pay cut was not only straight pay cuts. A lot of the savings came from needed efficiency improvements, reduction of credit rigs…the hidden income I consider outdated entitlements.

Other workgroups made very similar sacrifices. Take the Delta flight attendants. Since July 1, 2004 and until the last pay cut effective November 1, 2005, Delta flight attendants have seen a straight pay reduction of 28.8%. This is excluding increases in healthcare and other benefits paid for by the individual. Was the cost reduction for In-Flight Service maybe justified? If we stand back and compare with pay and benefits offered by the LCCs, there was no way around it. I am expecting to retire from my employment with Delta and I am therefore expecting my management to make tough decisions to secure my job. If I do not agree… then I have a choice to make. Consider this, with all the reductions/cuts, a Delta flight attendant is still able to earn an annual salary of $65,000 – $70,000 if they are willing to work up to 18-19 days a month. I can guarantee you that many of our colleagues at the LCCs would be ecstatic if they had this earnings potential.

Delta management has for years been in a very interesting situation as salaries for lower, middle and upper-middle management was desperately out of touch with reality. As an example, for years, a supervisor would find him/herself receiving an income of $10,000 - $15,000 less annually than the employees supervised. To rectify this situation, the company conducted an enormous study benchmarking competitive salary targets for each management position (excluding directors and above). All other salaries were adjusted to meet competitive targets.

Okay this was long. However, the reason I went through this ranting was due to all the comments made about the pilot group being saddled with such high savings targets while other work groups have experienced less salary reductions. To me it is truly very simple; Delta is attempting to get each of the employee groups to competitive salary targets. This includes our precious pilots and flight attendants (of which I am one).

How does anybody expect Delta to compete with LCCs and restructured legacy carriers if our salary structure is based on past legacy glory? I must admit, I do find it absurd that salary cuts create such upheaval. Do I like it? Hell no. Do I want Delta to come back as a strong competitor and then reap the benefits again? Definitely. We all need to take these “blows” with discipline and as challenges to be overcome; we need to stop whimpering and get to work, we need to find “realistic” ways to save money and…. we always need to remember that our employment with Delta is our choice.
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surfdog75
Posts: 239
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:27 am

Pretty one-sided discussion. It's very easy to want to give away other employees paychecks. What's not mentioned very often is that pilots are being singled out for extreme cuts while others are being treated with relative "kid gloves".

Any cut is painful, but pilots gave massively last fall and are being asked to give the lion's share again. The union has looked at the numbers and concluded these cuts are excessive and unnecessary for the company to be profitable. I'm not just talking about pay. They would like to give us the worst retirement system of any major airline. The company would also like to use this opportunity to outsource much more flying to the lowest bidder. More job losses would occur company-wide as we give away much more of our flying to the lowest bidder. How many are already gone since we started giving all our flying to the Chautauquas, Comairs, and Mesas of the world?

Everyone realizes times are harder than ever but management is using this as an opportunity to beat the employee groups (especially pilots) back to the Stone Age.

One thing not publicized is that the pilot group has pledged to try to protect fellow non-union employee groups when an inevitable merger occurs, and to fight for fellow employees pensions when the company tries to flush them. It's going to happen. Believe me, no one wants to kill the company, but we don't want to be steam-rolled either.
 
TL8490
Posts: 132
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:44 am

"the pilots have pledged to try to protect fellow non union employee groups...."

Now that is funny...the pilots are only out for themselves and no one else...this is too funny

One other thing...if you look at the cuts from the 1 billion dollar cut....some of them have not happened...my guess because the union is using some of its work rules to prevent some of the savings...SO stop talking about the Billion dollar cut...it was never completely realized....
 
surfdog75
Posts: 239
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 17):
Now that is funny...the pilots are only out for themselves and no one else...this is too funny

One other thing...if you look at the cuts from the 1 billion dollar cut....some of them have not happened...my guess because the union is using some of its work rules to prevent some of the savings...SO stop talking about the Billion dollar cut...it was never completely realized....

Your post says nothing.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 15):
I am expecting to retire from my employment with Delta and I am therefore expecting my management to make tough decisions to secure my job. If I do not agree… then I have a choice to make. Consider this, with all the reductions/cuts, a Delta flight attendant is still able to earn an annual salary of $65,000 – $70,000 if they are willing to work up to 18-19 days a month. I can guarantee you that many of our colleagues at the LCCs would be ecstatic if they had this earnings potential.

You have much more confidence than I do in a management team that has such a poor track record. I don't want to downgrade any fellow employees, but the only reason a Delta F/A could make $65,000-$70,000 a year is to fly a huge amount of hours. These are hours other F/A's could have flown. Why do you think 2500 F/A's are being furloughed? These are some of the best, most motivated we have.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 17):
"the pilots have pledged to try to protect fellow non union employee groups...."

How can the pilot group "protect" anybody? What an arrogant and irresponsible comment.

The bottom line is that the bankruptcy court is going to follow the law and place creditor and stockholder interests above all others.

Delta is a good place to work. We are in a time of shared sacrifice. These guys were for years the highest paid pilots in the world. If the pilots find they can no longer afford to work for Delta wages, they are free to move on.

The rhetoric displayed by this guy is just fluff...something to get the employees whipped up about something over which we have absolutely no control. Today our wonderful company is in financial turmoil and we need the cost of their services to be reduced.

It's unfortunate that these highly compensated, professional men and women are taking this all so personally. They want to protect their lifestyles. We all do. But right now, the survival of our company while is paramount.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
srbmod
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:29 am

The DL pilots would be shooting themselves in the foot if this guy leads them to a strike that kills the airline. After Eastern went under in 1991, Delta (along with just about all of the major airlines) wouldn't touch a Eastern pilot with a 10 foot pole for years (I knew one ex-EAL pilot [who was against the ALPA walkout] who finally got a flying gig 6 months after Eastern folded. Ended up flying for World and spent most of his time away from home. There are former Eastern pilots who never flew again after the airline folded.). You think any airlines would want to hire Delta pilots if they walk out and cause the collapse of Delta? Delta's pilots will pick up the impression of being troublemakers and would be lucky to get on with a fly by night airline. Everyone else at Delta has had to bear the brunt of the cost cutting, as they know that without it, they don't have jobs; so why can't the pilots see that as well.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:00 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 19):
How can the pilot group "protect" anybody? What an arrogant and irresponsible comment.

OK, I choose not to flame you but, do you think the pilots and FA's at Northwest could have helped the mechanics when they were faced with the loss of almost half of their jobs?

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 19):
The bottom line is that the bankruptcy court is going to follow the law and place creditor and stockholder interests above all others.

Delta is a good place to work. We are in a time of shared sacrifice. These guys were for years the highest paid pilots in the world. If the pilots find they can no longer afford to work for Delta wages, they are free to move on.

Yes, there has been and will be many more sacrifices by the pilots. I choose to stay and try to keep this career worth having. Under this proposal by management a Delta 767 Capt will make less than an Airtran 737 Capt. It obvious they are determined to disproportionately target the only union on property.
 
tu154m
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 4:52 am

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:07 pm

Funny how no one mentions that AFTER the 32.5% paycut the pilots took last year they still remained the highest paid in the industry, while every other employee group at DL sank to the bottom of the barrel. Poor DL pilots........time to arrive in reality and sell your 3rd house, sports cars, and dump the mistress. The pilot group is as much to blame for the demise of DL as is management.
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
dl757md
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 21):
Under this proposal by management a Delta 767 Capt will make less than an Airtran 737 Capt. It's obvious they are determined to disproportionately target the only union on property.

WAAHH! A DL mech with 30 years working on 8 types of aircraft now makes around 30% less than an Airtran mech with 8 years working on two types. Your not the only ones having to sacrifice greatly to save Delta.

DL757Md

[Edited 2005-11-17 06:17:40]

[Edited 2005-11-17 06:18:41]
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:18 pm

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 21):
Under this proposal by management a Delta 767 Capt will make less than an Airtran 737 Capt. It obvious they are determined to disproportionately target the only union on property.

There's a major difference here. Airtran is profitable, Delta is not. Billion dollar losses every quarter are unsustainable. I've lived through demise of one employer, Eastern, and I don't want to go through it again. I respect your desire to hang onto a very lucrative career, but if this company fails there will be no career to pursue. If we don't get our costs way down, the company will almost certainly fail. Until very recently, you guys were the highest paid pilot group on the planet. When good times return, and they most certainly will, you'll be able to negotiate higher wages. The need for cuts is real and immediate.

We had a couple of years to prepare for these wages cuts. The writing was on the wall throughout the industry. Prudent individuals starting preparing for this years ago. I earned the same pay in 1995 as I do today. That's hard to accept as well.

For the sake of all of our careers, be part of the solution.

P.S. Be careful about revealing your identity in your profile. These boards are monitored by managers at the company. I know from personal experience.

[Edited 2005-11-17 06:23:51]
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Peter
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:02 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 5):
alot of ed off folks. Simply put, they're tired of putting up with the crap. Rightfully so.

I agree that there's been a lot of negative stuff going on for employees recently, but we've got to stay within the realm of possibility. If the money's not there, it's just not there. Keep in mind that other employees aside from pilots, like my dad for instance, have taken pay cuts to, and that they started out making considerably less money than the average pilot salary.
I do truly hope that the pilot's don't strike. I can understand frustration, but what I can't understand is putting the rest of the employees out of a job while it's still possible that otherwise the company could emerge from bankruptcy. Just remember that everyone related with the company will be negatively affected by a strike and the ensuing shutdown. In my case, I'm going through college right now, financed by that job, and if it ends, what happens to me or to the rest of my family? The same would be true for just about every job at Delta.

[Edited 2005-11-17 12:04:51]
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12394
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:56 pm

There has been a series of management, financial and labor decisions made in the last 20 years at a number of airlines that have led to their crises like at DL right now. Just blaming the LLC's isn't enough. For example:
1) Buying labor peace with significant raises without recognizing the long term costs when business would have it's down cycles
2) Not ending traditional pension programs to employees whom joined airlines after a certain point and instead use 401(k) programs
3) Chasing too few customers with too many routes (overexpansion) and too many low fares (mainly to fight off competition, especially from LCC's)
4) Various financial deals, especially in the mid-1980's to fend off buy outs by rich investors whom would then suck out all the cash out of the companies, and saddle them them with huge debts, which did kill some airlines. For the ones that remained and somehow survived these financial issues still put them in a bad situation when the world/USA economy went through it's down times (1987, 1991-92, late 2000-2002) and now as well.
Now if DL pilots go on strike and kill the airline, it wouldn't be just one union leader in trouble, but most of the pilots would be also targets of rage incluidng acts of violence but also probably crippling civil lawsuits by agressive and greedy attorneys representing stockholders and other ex-employees upon them. I am quite sure those pilots and others who would be targets of such lawsuits or at least the legal costs of fending them off, would seriously hurt their finances.
 
aanyc
Posts: 129
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:20 pm

Delta pilots have already give $1 billion back to the company. Is that not enough? This is not the same old Delta that we all once knew. What is going on there now is just wrong. When I first started working in this industry 20 years ago Delta was my first choice. This was because of the great relationship employees had with management. I was not selected and was hired by Eastern. In a situation like this the tough decisions are not easy. Lorenzo was destroying Eastern and in March of 1989 we had to stand up for what we believed in. All 3 unions on property walked out. While Eastern did not survive neither did Lorenzo. He can no longer be involved in the U.S. airline industry. The Delta pilots are simply standing up for what is right. Their airline is being destroyed by what they see as inept management. The same thing happened at AA in April 2003. We the flight attendants initially voted no on our concession package. The following day the vote was changed and we also found out that Carty had hidden some money away that we were not told about. The only way we would sign was if he stepped down. Now with Arpey at the helm we at least have a fighting chance. That's all the Delta pilots want is a real chance to save their company. Pay cuts are not the cure. Best of luck to all Delta pilots.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4464
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:21 pm

LTBEWR,

All good points you make. #4 particularly applies to NWA when it was taken over in a leveraged buyout led by Al Checchi and Gary Wilson. NWA was in a financial hole after that.

I agree with your analysis 100%
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 27):
We the flight attendants initially voted no on our concession package. The following day the vote was changed and we also found out that Carty had hidden some money away that we were not told about. The only way we would sign was if he stepped down. Now with Arpey at the helm we at least have a fighting chance. That's all the Delta pilots want is a real chance to save their company

How exactly does that apply to DL and what are Dl's pilots demanding be changed at the upper levels of management? To my my knowledge and correct me if I'm wrong but they aren't proposing any kind of concrete changes in DL management.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
bucky707
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 15):
I can assure you though, while we do have some very radical pro ALPA not clear thinking pilots, you will see the majority of our cockpit crew members cross picket lines.

Would there be some crossing of picket lines? Yes, there is in every strike. But you are way, way off if you think the majority would cross.

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 12):
My feeling is...and it is only mine based on what I have read, is that about 20% of the pilots want to take down the airline. So when that 20% does not show up to work, Delta and the CUSTOMERS will be the big winner in the long run.

At Delta, and I suspect at any pilot group, we have traditionally had 20% who would strike over anything, 20% who would vote yes to anything, and then the middle 60% who take a look at things and vote accordingly and usually end up being fairly well split. This time around the company has lost the middle group.
 
gokmengs
Posts: 895
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:17 pm

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 16):
Pretty one-sided discussion. It's very easy to want to give away other employees paychecks. What's not mentioned very often is that pilots are being singled out for extreme cuts while others are being treated with relative "kid gloves".

Excuse me so the other DL non-pilot employees didn't take paycut(s)? I don't think thats the case, what treatment are you talking about can you explain?

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 23):
WAAHH! A DL mech with 30 years working on 8 types of aircraft now makes around 30% less than an Airtran mech with 8 years working on two types. Your not the only ones having to sacrifice greatly to save Delta.

I believe people like you who sacrificed will(should) reap benefits when DL is in better shape.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 26):
4) Various financial deals, especially in the mid-1980's to fend off buy outs by rich investors whom would then suck out all the cash out of the companies, and saddle them them with huge debts, which did kill some airlines. For the ones that remained and somehow survived these financial issues still put them in a bad situation when the world/USA economy went through it's down times (1987, 1991-92, late 2000-2002) and now as well.
Now if DL pilots go on strike and kill the airline, it wouldn't be just one union leader in trouble, but most of the pilots would be also targets of rage incluidng acts of violence but also probably crippling civil lawsuits by agressive and greedy attorneys representing stockholders and other ex-employees upon them. I am quite sure those pilots and others who would be targets of such lawsuits or at least the legal costs of fending them off, would seriously hurt their finances.

Great post.
And last here is quote from the judge Beatty, in charge of the DL case regarding DL pilot salaries; Quote"What's really weird is that anyone agreed to pay them that much money to begin with."
I think DL pilots do a great jon and they earn every penny, but when the company is in this bad shape they should ride the storm and pitch in, they have to remember when DL was in good shape they were paid top dollars.
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whitehatter
Posts: 5180
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 26):
There has been a series of management, financial and labor decisions made in the last 20 years at a number of airlines that have led to their crises like at DL right now. Just blaming the LLC's isn't enough. For example:

snipped the rest, but a mature and sensible appraisal.

Quoting Gokmengs (Thread starter):
Granted DL and every company alike is nothing with out their employees but isn't he being ridicilously communist like is that the attitude he should have.

Congratulations on immediately blowing your credibility.

As for the union guy, what do you want him to do? demand his members work for nothing? He's doing his job, no more and no less. If the pilots don't want to accept the new contract what the hell else can they do?

It is the job of the union to put up alternatives and one of those is to put a ballot for strike action to its members. That's not communism, it's democracy. The pilots want to go to the table and negotiate as equals, not victims or underlings to be crushed. They have mortgages and commitments like everyone else, and you can only squeeze so hard before the job gets to a stage where it's not covering your living expenses.

As for 'ownership', the staff DO own the company. Without them it is nothing and investors would not get one cent of their money back. The union is representing its members with strength and purpose, but for some reason our little reichwing kiddy cadre here want to label them as communists for doing their job...grow up and try living in the real world where people are fighting for a fair wage for their skills and not some hatchet job on their lives.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
gokmengs
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 32):
As for 'ownership', the staff DO own the company. Without them it is nothing and investors would not get one cent of their money back. The union is representing its members with strength and purpose, but for some reason our little reichwing kiddy cadre here want to label them as communists for doing their job...grow up and try living in the real world where people are fighting for a fair wage for their skills and not some hatchet job on their lives.

Read my post again before you start your name calling hot head! I said employees DO own the company, my point was Mr. Moaks attitude in handling it by saying something such as ""I would never bluff," Moak said. "I'm very direct. What I say is what I'll do."
As far as how I earn my life thats non of your business, but FYI I work very hard for every cent I make. Who are you to question it without knowing anything about me, we are discussing a subject here why the personal attack?
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surfdog75
Posts: 239
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:56 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 23):
WAAHH! A DL mech with 30 years working on 8 types of aircraft now makes around 30% less than an Airtran mech with 8 years working on two types. Your not the only ones having to sacrifice greatly to save Delta.

DL757Md

I realize we are not the only ones to sacrifice. Having worked at several carriers I know our mechanics are the best in the business. I also know you have been hit hard with cuts and job losses.

My main issue is with outsourcing more of our flying. We already have very little control over the customer's experience on the multitude of carriers that say Delta on the side. It would also, in my opinion, result in many more job losses across the company while being only a short term cost solution and a long term liability. We've already spent billions on RJs for other companies employees to fly and work.


Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
P.S.

Thanks!
 
gokmengs
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 34):
My main issue is with outsourcing more of our flying. We already have very little control over the customer's experience on the multitude of carriers that say Delta on the side. It would also, in my opinion, result in many more job losses across the company while being only a short term cost solution and a long term liability. We've already spent billions on RJs for other companies employees to fly and work.

Hope you and your colleagues resolve the issue at hand and will have a win win situation, for both DL and its pilots.
Having said that, I have a question for you; The outsourcing that you mention is mainly done with RJ's am I right? When DL simplifies its fleet in the future I was thinking they would outsource less to the Regional carriers, or is it the opposite, what do you think?
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bucky707
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:15 am

on the issue of outsourcing, I wanted to add that personally, that is the one thing in the company proposal that is an absolute no vote from me.

20% pay cut.......hard to argue when NW just agreed to the same end rate. Same thing with the sick leave proposal. Some other things in the company proposal are very hostile and I think un-needed, but they can be worked out.

However, I will not vote to give away more of our jobs. Outsourcing affects more than just pilots too. It affects everyone. The more flying we outsource the fewer pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, mechanics, etc. Delta needs.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:36 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 33):
As far as how I earn my life thats non of your business, but FYI I work very hard for every cent I make. Who are you to question it without knowing anything about me

Why can't we know what you do for a living and have an opinion about it?

You have no problem sticking your nose into the business of the Delta pilots and making your opinion very well known about it.


So many non airline employees have expressed their opinions about what we do and what we make, why can't we comment on your occupation and earnings?
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
deltagator
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Thread starter):
but isn't he being ridicilously communist like is that the attitude he should have.

Well I think you just hit on the core belief of a lot of unions. Workers unite against the big bad boss man.

That said I think the pilots have somewhat of a righteous beef since they agreed to cuts previously and if DL management can't get their act together and stop losing billions each quarter that isn't the pilots' fault. Of course also see the next line below for a complete reversal.

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 17):
One other thing...if you look at the cuts from the 1 billion dollar cut....some of them have not happened...my guess because the union is using some of its work rules to prevent some of the savings...SO stop talking about the Billion dollar cut...it was never completely realized....

If true that is interesting and honestly doesn't surprise me. Kind of like Ted Turner saying he would donate 1 billion USD to the United Nations. It was much less than that but had the potential to reach 1 billion over time.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
gokmengs
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Fleet service (Reply 37):
ou have no problem sticking your nose into the business of the Delta pilots and making your opinion very well known about it.


So many non airline employees have expressed their opinions about what we do and what we make, why can't we comment on your occupation and earnings?

Because If I decide to quit/leave my job(strike) it wont result in thousands of people losing their jobs, thats why.
And for crying out loud read the whole thread before you decide to chime in will you? I never said DL pilots should make less, all I'm saying is like all the other employees of DL, the pilots should pitch in to save the airline thats all. Also if you would have read carefully before you jump in to conclusions you would have seen from my post too;

Quoting Gokmengs (Thread starter):
Well apparently he is Delta Master Executive Council chairman, but with people with attitudes like this, the DL pilots have no chance of getting what they want.Not to mention the terribble PR they are getting from the american public in support(or lack there of) for their "cause".

The thread is about Mr. Moaks attitude in this issue.
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bucky707
Posts: 954
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 39):
all I'm saying is like all the other employees of DL, the pilots should pitch in to save the airline thats all

I think you will find very few pilots against taking a pay cut. Its the amount of the pay cut thats in dispute.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 36):
The more flying we outsource the fewer pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, mechanics, etc. Delta needs

I don't know. My original station was JAX. When I first began working there, we had ASA RJ's flying JAX-LGA routes. So Delta decided to bump up to MD-88's. They never were able to pull out more than 50-60 people a flight and were money losers. So after about 6 months, Delta bumped it back to OH RJ's and its been that way ever since. They make money because they fill up every flight. RJ's have their place in the company, and they have their place competiting against other carriers in point to point flying where a bigger aircraft just won't cut it. When you have that kind of situation, why not farm it out to a subsidiary. But unless a station goes to all Comair, ASA, or Skywest, the station remains a Delta station. There can be 1 Delta flight a day and the rest RJ's, it remains a Delta station. I have yet to see anyone in JAX lose their job due to thier jobs being farmed out to RJ's.

However, the company is trying to propose ordering E-190's and have them flown by MAINLINE pilots. But the mainline pilots are the ones that seem to think flying a 100 seat aircraft is "below" them. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, if you ask me.


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
gokmengs
Posts: 895
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:10 am

Hey Otto nice to see you joining the conversation

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
There can be 1 Delta flight a day and the rest RJ's, it remains a Delta station. I have yet to see anyone in JAX lose their job due to thier jobs being farmed out to RJ's.

Thats good to know because I didn't know the affects of outsourcing flights to DL employees.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
However, the company is trying to propose ordering E-190's and have them flown by MAINLINE pilots. But the mainline pilots are the ones that seem to think flying a 100 seat aircraft is "below" them. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, if you ask me.

I heard the E-190's to mainline idea before, and I thought it was great for DL, but its hard to understand why a pilot would think that way, sad actually.
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panamair
Posts: 3761
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 27):
Delta pilots have already give $1 billion back to the company. Is that not enough?

Obviously not; even the pilots admit that with the $91m they are offering!!

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 27):
This is not the same old Delta that we all once knew

Yeah, show me one airline which is the "same old airline we all once knew"!

Quoting Aanyc (Reply 27):
That's all the Delta pilots want is a real chance to save their company. Pay cuts are not the cure

Yes, pay cuts are not the cure. That's why there is an attempt to cut approximately $1 billion of costs through network restructuring and another $1 billion through Ch.11 rejection of leases and debt relief, etc. And what is this "real chance" of saving the company? To date, we haven't heard anything about any proposal. So they want to toss out this management...so the next set of management comes in and tell them they need them to cut $500 million, then what? They won't like that, so what is the next recourse - toss out the new management too?
 
milesrich
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:17 am

"This is not about revolution. It's about resolution," the chairman of the union's executive committee, Lee Moak, told the crowd. "We will take this company back. It will be returned to its rightful owner — the employees of Delta Air Lines."

This sounds like "Jesse Jackson Lite!" Oy Vey!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5159
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
However, the company is trying to propose ordering E-190's and have them flown by MAINLINE pilots

Maybe they should order 717s instead. Delta, after all, once flew DC9-30s, which were flown by mainline pilots.  stirthepot 

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
db373
Posts: 228
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
That's a choice quite similar to that of a suicide bomber. Can't have it, so nobody can! Booom.

Oh my God. The pilots are terrorists!!!!

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
This whole moral dilemma some propagate -- about either side -- is unfair and unreasonable. If Delta pilots realistically believe that their best interests would be served by striking, and subsequently putting their employer out of business (most likely), then that is their opinion, their feeling, and their prerogative, whether we like it or not, and they have every right to it.

Of course they have the right to strike and subsequently take down their company, but I have a right as well to say they're being selfish and unsensitive. I disagree with when you say calling their actions wrong is unfair and unreasonable. If they have the right to strike, I have the right to say I think they're wrong. Plain and simple.
Keep Delta My Delta
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
However, the company is trying to propose ordering E-190's and have them flown by MAINLINE pilots. But the mainline pilots are the ones that seem to think flying a 100 seat aircraft is "below" them. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, if you ask me.

And at the same time, they probably would not allow any DL Connection airline to fly them either. They raised enough hell about five years back in regards to ASA and Comair flying the CRJ-700. DL's ALPA MEC seems to not know which way they're going. I bet right now, OH and EV's ALPA MECs are glad they didn't merge with the DL MEC. What these geniuses evidiently don't realize is that getting a 100-seater guarantees more mainline flight jobs. Without the E-190/E-195, those routes would end up getting DL Connection service, which means less mainline jobs.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
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RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 47):
What these geniuses evidiently don't realize is that getting a 100-seater guarantees more mainline flight jobs. Without the E-190/E-195, those routes would end up getting DL Connection service, which means less mainline jobs.

Exactly. From the sources that I have spoken with, the mainline guys apparently seem to want to think that anything smaller than a 737 is below them and insignificant. And because the pay would be lower(for a smaller plane, of course), its no need to even think of. But I'm sure there are a lot of junior guys and a lot of furloughed guys that sit aside praying for some E-190's. More mainline planes, more mainline jobs, a win-win for everyone, even ALPA, because that means more dues paying members.

But I think DL may see the writing on the wall with that and instead, decide to push for 90 seaters to be flown by regionals. Its understandable. Their outlook would be, "Hey, its a good plane and certainly has its place(now that the 732 is going), you guys seem to have no interest in flying it, then so be it. We will want to let our DCI guys fly it, they would love the higher pay and new planes." But mainline pilots would see this as "farming out their jobs." Well what do you expect? Would you rather run the routes with a half-ful, money-losing MD88, so that you can blame management for incompetence, when you clearly won't let the use the equipment needed?

I would LOVE to see ALPA try to start and run an airline. They seem so bent on trying to take over the airlines they are working for, it would be hilarious.


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: All DL People Future In The Hands Of This Guy?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 48):
From the sources that I have spoken with, the mainline guys apparently seem to want to think that anything smaller than a 737 is below them and insignificant. And because the pay would be lower(for a smaller plane, of course), its no need to even think of

Actually, the DL pilots really do want the EMB190 (or similar 100 seater). They've made it very clear to DL management that they want this plane.

What they don't like are the payrates management is proposing. Management wants DALPA to fly the EMB190 for a rate that is less than what a Comair pilot makes flying the CRJ700 (a smaller plane). In fact, the rates that DL management has proposed are less than even the Republic EMB190 rates. Management also wants to lock the pilots into the EMB190 for a set number of years....no moving to larger equipment.

However, I don't think the EMB190 is the biggest sticking point. I think a bigger problem is that DL management wants to have 200 70-79 seat aircraft. If this were to happen, it's likely that DL wouldn't even try to get the EMB190 for mainline, they'd just flood the skies with EMB170/175's. This would mean that all those 732/733's that are being retired would never be replaced at mainline.

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