wdleiser
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A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:38 am

Why does it seem that all the Airbus bashers thought the A350 was/is going to suck balls because it is not a new developement, but rather a new version of an older model with new engines and fuselage structure?

Yet, now we have the 748 and the Airbus haters are talking about how much less the 748 is in developement cost, and how it is going to be such a great plane.

Yet, the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the 747, it's the first plane I got to fly Jumpseat in, it is what I want to fly some day. Now, this A vs. B war... seems like Republican vs. Democrats here in the states. You just dislike the other sides aircraft just for the sake it is not made by your "side".

I mean, does it take a 17 year old Highschool student to point out how immature A.netters are? I mean, I am positive most of you are older than me and have more experience with "real life" than I have.... yet when it comes to A vs. B you are all children.
 
PPVRA
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:43 am

It's not "bad."

The b787 is 100% new design, the A350 is not. The B748 does not really have any competitor in it's class to worry about. If Airbus came out with a 100% new design (a la B787) to compete with the new 747, then the B748 would be in serious trouble.

Cheers

Edit: Airbus says the A350 is a 100% new design, but it uses materials that are a bit heavier than the B787, though it MAY offer a few advantages (cost/maintenance?) over the 787s materials - we'll have to wait and see.

[Edited 2005-11-16 23:47:32]
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BoomBoom
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:48 am

This is what Airbus had to say about the 747-800

Quote:
Airbus officials say they're unimpressed by the new 747 jetliner, noting that the only launch customers are air-freight companies. "It's not a surprise that Boeing is going forth with a counter to our product, but it's very clear to Airbus that our customers are looking for far more than a warmed-over '60s design," says Airbus spokeswoman MaryAnne Greczyn. "What is putting the A380 so much in demand is its economy, technology, comfort, and flexibility. Adding a few rows to an old airplane isn't gonna be a big draw."

http://businessweek.com/innovate/content/nov2005/id20051116_370967.htm

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FriendlySkies
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:57 am

The 748 isn't Boeing's answer to the A380. They aren't that stupid...this is nothing more than a stop-gap until Boeing decides what they want to do for the VLA market. OTOH, Airbus has given every sign that the A350 IS their answer to the 787. So, in short, I'd say you're topic was correct.

Airbus A350'd the A330 to compete with a brand-new, revolutionary product.

Boeing A350'd the 744 to keep in hopes of making a few sales to current 744 customers while further research is done on the market.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Why does it seem that all the Airbus bashers thought the A350 was/is going to suck balls because it is not a new developement, but rather a new version of an older model with new engines and fuselage structure?

Suck balls aren't exactly the words I would use...

The criticism of the A350 is that it does not match the high degree of technology in the 787. Airbus has opted for an Al-li fuselage rather than composite, bleed-air versus electric systems, basically derrivitve versus all-new. It's debateable if this was a good long-term decision. In 2018, perhaps not going all-composite on the A350 will seem like the A340 quad-configuration in hindsight.

The 747-8 and A380 are not quite in the same position. The A388 will remain much more advanced than the 747, but technology isn't a slam dunk here. Because the A380 is optimized for a larger A389, the A388 isn't the most efficent it could be. This opens the door for the 747-Adv. Airbus set efficency targets to cream the 747-400, but with modest improvement, Boeing can close this gap:

1. Studies show the 747 is most structurally efficent with a modest stretch, the 747-8 takes advantage of this. The 450-seat 747-8 will weigh almost 100,000 lbs less than the 550-seat A388.

2. While the GP7000 and T900 are modern engines, the GEnx features some crucial improvements. This will give Boeing an edge in SFC.

As you know, stretching an aircraft improves opperating economics. Combine with new engines and minor aerodynamic improvements, and Boeing hopes to replicate A380 economics (or better) in a smaller package.

On the other hand, the 787 and A350 is a case of (roughly) same-sized aircraft trying to edge out the other.
 
Glom
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 2):
but it's very clear to Airbus that our customers are looking for far more than a warmed-over '60s design

LOL! My, isn't that language familiar. Referring to a '60s design is dumb anyway. It's an '80s design since it is based far more on the 744.

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Yet, the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

Yeah, it's funny isn't it. I don't think the fact that the A350 was a "warmed over A330" was the cause of the scepticism. It was how that warming over was going to improve performance compared to what Boeing was offering in the 787 (except among the rabid dogs). If Boeing weren't going way out there with CFRP fuselage and used some more conventional advanced materials, then the situation would be analogised to the A320 vs 737NG situation.

The A320 was a conventional aircraft (and don't give me crap about FBW; it's not that big a deal) of a conventional size, so applying new technology to warm over an old design, the 737, would be competitive. The A380 is a conventional aircraft of unconventional size so applying new technology to warm over an old design, the 747, can also be competitive. The 787 is an unconventional aircraft (except among those whose knowledge of aircraft amounts to identifying tail fins) of conventional size, so applying new technology to an old aircraft, the A330, was not necessarily going to offer the same competitiveness.

When you have a conventional aircraft, an evolution of older work, then evolving an existing design offers more prospects. An unconventional aircraft, a revolution, makes things more difficult for existing designs to be evolved to be competitiveness.

That being said, since Airbus increased the temperature of the warming over and moved it into a slightly different market, it allows it to compete well in a different way.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:19 am

Even if using a "warmed over A330" as the basis for the A350, is it not somewhat correct to note that the A350 serves somewhat the same role for Airbus as the 747-8 serves for Boeing?

The A330 is the better plane then the 767. That and Boeing's complacency cost them a number of orders and customers, who went with the A330 over the 763 and 764.

The 787 is the better plane then the A330. If Airbus was complacent to just do nothing, then they would risk seeing A330 sales dry up as customers and orders went to the 787.

Boeing "warmed-over" the 747 with a few versions to try and keep some customers in the family. Airbus did the same thing with the first few versions of the A350. Neither one resonated with their customers.

So Airbus went back and with the latest, really tweaked the A350 design. Boeing did much the same with their latest - the 747-8. Neither is as "gee-whizz" as the leader (the 787 and the A388), however they do offer benefits over their previous models and an incentive to current customers of those models to move forward "in the family". Not most of them, to be sure. Maybe not many of them, but enough to justify the R&D expense and keep the lines open for another decade or more.
 
EI321
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
The 748 isn't Boeing's answer to the A380. They aren't that stupid...this is nothing more than a stop-gap until Boeing decides what they want to do for the VLA market. OTOH, Airbus has given every sign that the A350 IS their answer to the 787. So, in short, I'd say you're topic was correct.

Airbus A350'd the A330 to compete with a brand-new, revolutionary product.

Boeing A350'd the 744 to keep in hopes of making a few sales to current 744 customers while further research is done on the market.

I dont agree. The 748 is boeings answer to the 380.
 
Glom
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
I dont agree. The 748 is boeings answer to the 380.

Not necessarily. If someone wants a 500 seater, Boeing knows they will go to the A380 and they know they have nothing to offer to combat that.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
I dont agree. The 748 is boeings answer to the 380.

It's "Boeing's answer to the A388" in that is the largest plane Boeing has to offer customers. But for those customers who need 470+ passenger capacity, Boeing understands that the A388 is the only game in town. I honestly do not expect Boeing to believe the 747-8I will make a critical dent in the A388's momentum either in the immediate or mid-term (5-10 year) future. Long-term, if VLA proves to be a four-figure niche, then Boeing will scale up Y3 (or launch a specialized Y4) to go head-to-head with the A389 and whatever other A380-based models Airbus develops to maintain their position.
 
abba
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:00 am

There are people here on A.net who - and they have written it specifically - are considering the industry as a football match where they are supporting the one team over against the other. This I find plain stupid. Not only do they not have any basis for serious discussion. I also fail to see (unless you are a major share holder or an employee) how it can be in our interest who of the two "wins" (whatever that means).

As citizens of the world it will have a huge impact how this industry develops as it plays a key role (in unison with other industries such as the communication and freight/shipping industry) in promoting the globalization process that is so transforming societies all over the world. The old theme being played ever since the Concord/747: better luxury for the few or cheaper travel for the many still is very important. Which of the two manufactures who at this point in time is promoting either of the two trends (they have changed roles before) is much less significant as to the question: in which direction is the world moving. The sports fanatics simply looses out of this blinded as they are by their narow minded way of looking at things.


Abba
 
manni
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
So Airbus went back and with the latest, really tweaked the A350 design. Boeing did much the same with their latest - the 747-8. Neither is as "gee-whizz" as the leader (the 787 and the A388),

I strongly disagree. The amount of vocal members on airliners.net that have a prefference for the 787, have made this the top legend of the site. You can keep repeating the same wisdom, but that does not make it true. Both, the 787 and 350 are yet to fly, untill then and untill the correct data are accumulated, it remains to be seen wether one airplane has an advantage over the other. The same logic applies to the A380 vs the 748.

Again, an al composite aircraft saves a total of 3% fuel costs. The Airbus exist for 60% of these materials, reducing the fuel savings to 1,2%. The rest of the other 40% will be improved materials as compared to todays 767. Reducing the 1,2% even more. The large windows in the 787 will add weight, as compared to normal sized windows. In the end, the A350 has as much change as the 787 to be the better plane.
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zvezda
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:10 am

The differences are the new JumboJet costs a lot less to develop than the A350 and the new JumboJet is aimed squarely between the A340-600 and the WhaleJet while the A350 is aimed directly at the B787/B777-200ER. In other words, the A350 is competing with some of Boeing's best, while the JumboJet is going after a market where Airbus has no competitor.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
Both, the 787 and 350 are yet to fly, untill then and untill the correct data are accumulated, it remains to be seen wether one airplane has an advantage over the other. The same logic applies to the A380 vs the 748.

Fine. But customers believed that the 787 would do what Boeing said it would do, and ordered the plane by the score, while they did not believe the A350 would do what Airbus said it would do, which required Airbus to consistently revise the A350 until "the numbers" were "believable" enough that customers started placing serious orders.

So yes, the A350 may end up being the better plane because Airbus had a solid base to build on, just as Boeing may not be blowing smoke when they say the 747-8 will have lower trip costs and CASM then the A380 because they've spent 30 years with it. But airlines have ordered scores of passenger A388s and have been lukewarm (at best) on New Generation 747s.

And I doubt they've been so dazzled by Boeing and Airbus PowerPoint presentations that they have taken leave of their senses and ordered 787s and A380s because the models of them look cool on their desk.
 
manni
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
But customers believed that the 787 would do what Boeing said it would do, and ordered the plane by the score,

For a while the 787 was the only aircraft available.
80 aircraft can be unaccounted for (NH and JL) as they never even considered Airbus, due to Japans large investment in the 787, add another 10 ordered by Gordon 'Boeing' Bethune.
The 787 is earlier available than the A350, for those in need of aircraft in the not so distant furure, very important, the Chinese carriers come to mind.
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Thorny
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Yet, the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

One difference is that Airbus is trying to play down that their new aircraft is a derivative by giving it a new designation (A350 instead of A330-800 or something) while Boeing is being upfront and giving its latest derivative a 747 model number.
 
art
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
I mean, does it take a 17 year old Highschool student to point out how immature A.netters are? I mean, I am positive most of you are older than me and have more experience with "real life" than I have.... yet when it comes to A vs. B you are all children.

Wdleiser, to experience the truly infantile you need to listen to A and B management and PR people. Compared to them, we are positively adult!
 
PlaneDane
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:10 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
Again, an al composite aircraft saves a total of 3% fuel costs. The Airbus exist for 60% of these materials, reducing the fuel savings to 1,2%. The rest of the other 40% will be improved materials as compared to todays 767. Reducing the 1,2% even more. The large windows in the 787 will add weight, as compared to normal sized windows. In the end, the A350 has as much change as the 787 to be the better plane.

Manni, where in the world do you get this stuff?! Please, provide your sources for this "information" you have provided.

Quoting Manni (Reply 14):
For a while the 787 was the only aircraft available.
80 aircraft can be unaccounted for (NH and JL) as they never even considered Airbus, due to Japans large investment in the 787, add another 10 ordered by Gordon 'Boeing' Bethune.

So, in order to be fair, we should "unaccount for" any A350 orders from Qatar or Emirates because we know that the 787 was never really seriously considered by them either?
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:20 pm

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Why does it seem that all the Airbus bashers thought the A350 was/is going to suck balls because it is not a new developement, but rather a new version of an older model with new engines and fuselage structure?

Why does it seem that all one-sided cheerleaders get all upset and try to equate different situations to make themselves feel better? (it's a both sided phenomenon, but just happens to be an Airbus issue this time around)

The 748 is a derivative meant to grab some more orders for a proven airframe. It's not called the 797 or anything silly like that, and there are no delusions of grandeur that it's somehow breaking new ground in world aviation, since Boeing freely admits it is using 787 and 777LR technology and applying it to the reliable 747 airframe.

The A330 is a great plane. The A350 will be a great plane. Some of us just don't think it is an "all new" plane when it is the same size, shape and basic capacity as the model it replaces.

It is really an A338/9, A330-800/900. A330NG. Whatever you want to call it.

The 737NG doesn't "suck balls" and the A320NG won't either (though if it is the same size and shape as the current A320 and called the A360 anyway, it'll cause the same uproar).

Some just get a little perturbed when a derivative is bandied about as an all new MODEL by PR fools when it clearly ISN'T an all new model. When you claim to be something you are not, you upset people.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:29 pm

First, I must agree, the A vs. B childishness on A.net gets old fast.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1):
The B748 does not really have any competitor in it's class to worry about. If Airbus came out with a 100% new design (a la B787) to compete with the new 747, then the B748 would be in serious trouble.

True. The *big* advantage the 748 has is its ability to carry cargo long haul. The An-124 is a gas hog; its simply not cost effective unless its the only thing that will carry the load. While the A380 is going to be great for package delivery companies, its no good to any freighter that has a load that's too tall (or wide) for the A380. With the huge growth of long haul freight... A left open a niche with no offering to unseat the Queen of the skies in freight.

As to the A350, it has a tough game changer competitor to go against. I feel the criticizem its received has been entirely too harsh. Note: the original "warmed over" A330 proposal deserved to be trashed. While I think the A330 is a great plane, by 2010 it will be too out of date to keep in production. (Just as the 757 is a great plane but it was time to shut down the line.)

Lightsaber

ps: Great thread idea, bummer it will grow to 200+ messages that will be more emotion than thought.
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
dhefty
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
But airlines have ordered scores of passenger A388s and have been lukewarm (at best) on New Generation 747s.

Uh, hello! The B747-8 has only been available for 3 days.
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:37 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 20):
Uh, hello! The B747-8 has only been available for 3 days.

And it is meant as a long term cargo platform that is 'also available in a pax version', at least that's how most rational people seem to see it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
abba
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
Manni, where in the world do you get this stuff?! Please, provide your sources for this "information" you have provided

Most of it is widely published:

"According to Walt Gillette, about eight percent of the twenty percent of the fuel economy is due to the new engines, whose fan diameter is larger relative to the core than on the previous generation of engines. A further three percent improvement is contributed by each of the following features: the advanced aerodynamics, the more efficient systems with less weight, the lower overall structural weight and the optimal sizing, that is, the made-to-measure basic design which, in the case of the 7E7, began with a clean sheet of paper."

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft04/FRH0408/FR0408c.htm

Remember that this is all compared to the 767. The second item - Gillette has later admitted - did not provide the savings anticipated. To compensate, the savings had to be found in other places (I don't know whether this has been achieved by now or not). Also, the article gives reason to doubt that the last item will yield its thee percent. Gillette makes points out that the dimensions of the 787 are as much defined by the airlines' whims (and one might suspect) rather than optimal design considerations.

What is still very interesting is that such radical new design as the 787 introduces only yields a 3 percent fuel saving! Also, that it is the engines that provide most of the savings.

Abba
 
grantcv
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:02 pm

If the 747-8 is a warmed over '60s design based on the original 747, then why isn't the A350 a warmed over early '70s design as it is, however remotely, based on the A300?
 
rj777
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:07 pm

I hate to point out the obvious, but the 350 is meant to be a new airplane, where as 748 is only supposed to be a derivitive. Am I missing something here?
RJ
 
grantcv
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:14 pm

The A350 is promoted as a new plane while the 748 isn't. But both are derivative aircraft.
 
PlaneDane
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:28 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 22):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
Manni, where in the world do you get this stuff?! Please, provide your sources for this "information" you have provided

Most of it is widely published:

"According to Walt Gillette, about eight percent of the twenty percent of the fuel economy is due to the new engines, whose fan diameter is larger relative to the core than on the previous generation of engines. A further three percent improvement is contributed by each of the following features: the advanced aerodynamics, the more efficient systems with less weight, the lower overall structural weight and the optimal sizing, that is, the made-to-measure basic design which, in the case of the 7E7, began with a clean sheet of paper."

Yes, Abba, but what you have provided here disproves what Manni was trying to make us believe.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:35 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 14):
80 aircraft can be unaccounted for (NH and JL) as they never even considered Airbus

Wow. My eyes tend to glaze over and I get really bored when people start the who sold more games, but this takes it to an entirely new level of absurdity. Are you for real?
 
manni
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:59 pm

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 26):
Yes, Abba, but what you have provided here disproves what Manni was trying to make us believe.



Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 26):
A further three percent improvement is contributed by each of the following features: the advanced aerodynamics, the more efficient systems with less weight, the lower overall structural weight and the optimal sizing, that is, the made-to-measure basic design which, in the case of the 7E7, began with a clean sheet of paper."


-Advanced aerodynamics, will be onboard the A350, if not better.
-Optimal sizing, the A350 will be smaller in width than the 787, but future a wider cabin, talk about optimal sizing.
-More efficient systems wil also be featured aboard the A350, after all it's a new plane.

Wich leaves us with the structural weight as I have pointed out before.  Yeah sure

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
So, in order to be fair, we should "unaccount for" any A350 orders from Qatar or Emirates because we know that the 787 was never really seriously considered by them either?

What Emirates order? And in case they do order, wasn't Emirates the asking party for the stretched 787? Qatar did consider the 787 but found the A350 a beter fit for their network. In all fairness, it's a public secret that JAL and ANA never considered the A350.
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centrair
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:46 pm

I remember somewhere someone said that the 747 was originally suppose to be for freight as it would be replaced by supersonics. Well we don't have supersonics but we do have some great new technological developments.

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
In all fairness, it's a public secret that JAL and ANA never considered the A350.

Can you give the definition of a public secret?
NH and JL have both stated they will go All Boeing. NH was one of the first to order. A large percent of parts are being made in Japan. Airbus, in hopes of landing orders, tried to get the big Japanese Aerospace companies to get on board but they all turned away as they are already overwhelmed with A380, 777, and 787 production/development. So Airbus is looking to the growing Chinese Aerospace industry. China will give them orders in return.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
killjoy
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
-Advanced aerodynamics, will be onboard the A350, if not better.
-Optimal sizing, the A350 will be smaller in width than the 787, but future a wider cabin, talk about optimal sizing.

While I agree with some of your points, we don't know anything about the aerodynamics and what Airbus had to compromise on due to it being an A330 derivative. All I know is that the B787 will cruise faster with about the same efficiency.

As for cabin width, the A350 will only be wider than the A330.

I would, however, like to defend the decision to market it as a new airplane. Despite being a derivative, it's still intended for a different role than the A330. The 748 is just a better 747, whereas the A350 is actually more of an A340 replacement.

But that's not really the topic of the thread, anyway. I too am exasperated by all the stupid A vs. B stuff. Despite all the details and discussion in this thread, we all know that many people just bash one side blindly. It's polluting every related thread.

The A380 performance figures are a good example. Some are saying Airbus can't be believed due to previous "lies", completely ignoring the difference between bad estimates and being dishonest about real data. At the same time, the B747-8 is being hailed as more efficient two days after its launch, based on a Boeing flash animation. Please.
 
dhefty
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
And it is meant as a long term cargo platform that is 'also available in a pax version', at least that's how most rational people seem to see it.

Well, perhaps they do. In the next twenty years, however, there very well may be an equal market for a 450-seat passenger quad with excellent cargo capacity. Voila, the 747-8! It fits both assumptions.
 
astuteman
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:17 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
True. The *big* advantage the 748 has is its ability to carry cargo long haul

Absolutely. FWIW I think the 74-8 will be getting orders that the 744F would have gained anyway, due to the innate quality of the original concept. (One reason why they've kept the development costs down)

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
As to the A350, it has a tough game changer competitor to go against.

To stick to the 74-8 analogy, though, I think Airbus have been very careful to try and delicately squeeze the A350 in-between the 787 and the 777.
No matter what we think, Airlines seem the believe that the only direct competitor TODAY to the A359, is the 772LR. That may change, of course, but in the same way that Boeing has reserved some extra capacity in the 787 frame, so has Airbus in the A350, so I would expect response to beget response.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 30):
I would, however, like to defend the decision to market it as a new airplane. Despite being a derivative, it's still intended for a different role than the A330

A fair comment.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:39 pm

Isn't there a difference, in that the 748 is based on a plane (which in passenger form) is effectively dead - when was the last passenger order for the 744? - whereas the A350 is a derivative of the A330, which is still selling shedloads?

Indeed, when comparing sales this year, shouldn't the A330 and A350 totals be combined when comparing against the 787, as Boeings's existing product the 767 is also effectively dead in the water?

I still believe the 748 and A380 are rivals. If the 748 is a 400 seater, and the A380 a 500 seater, then a customer looking for a 450 seater has a choice of goign for something smaller or larger than they would like. As I said in another posting, it's only a 25% difference, which is only the same as that between a 100 and 125 seater.
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klmcedric
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:10 pm

I'm in the same camp as the people who believe the A-380 and 747-800
compete in the same league.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:26 pm

Differences worth noting:


#1
Airbus claimed that the A350 was a "new design, new plane, etc.", not a derivative of the A330 (although we know better)

Boeing hasn't made this claim of the 747-8.

#2

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 2):
but it's very clear to Airbus that our customers are looking for far more than a warmed-over '60s design," says Airbus spokeswoman MaryAnne Greczyn

Sticks and stones. This is just name-calling. Notably absent is any comment or debate on the actual economics claims by Boeing. If your competitor is saying that its plane is more economical than yours, wouldn't you address this first?

There's also something to be said for a "warmed-over '60s design" that can still hold its own when it comes to efficiency, economy, and comfort.

Quoting BoomBoom, reply=2:
What is putting the A380 so much in demand is its economy, technology, comfort, and flexibility

So why isn't this philosophy being put to use in the A350?

SparkingWave
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abba
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:33 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 29):
NH and JL have both stated they will go All Boeing. NH was one of the first to order. A large percent of parts are being made in Japan. Airbus, in hopes of landing orders, tried to get the big Japanese Aerospace companies to get on board but they all turned away as they are already overwhelmed with A380, 777, and 787 production/development. So Airbus is looking to the growing Chinese Aerospace industry. China will give them orders in return.

Interresting post! Would you say that Air France, British Airways , Lufthansa et al should go all Airbus? How come that a Boeing deal with Fuji Heavy Industries shouls make make NH and JL all Boeing?

ABBA
 
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sebolino
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:38 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 2):
This is what Airbus had to say about the 747-800

Quote:
Airbus officials say they're unimpressed by the new 747 jetliner, noting that the only launch customers are air-freight companies. "It's not a surprise that Boeing is going forth with a counter to our product, but it's very clear to Airbus that our customers are looking for far more than a warmed-over '60s design," says Airbus spokeswoman MaryAnne Greczyn. "What is putting the A380 so much in demand is its economy, technology, comfort, and flexibility. Adding a few rows to an old airplane isn't gonna be a big draw."

The war of words between the 2 manufacturers is understandable: they try to earn the maximum market shares.
When it's between so called aviation enthusiasts who are in fact only enthusiasted by easy critics and bashing, that's really something else.
 
flyAUA
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:45 pm

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Why does it seem that all the Airbus bashers thought the A350 was/is going to suck balls because it is not a new developement, but rather a new version of an older model with new engines and fuselage structure?

It's called being biased (on a.net aka cheerleading/bashing)  Wink

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

Almost... How much of the B748 will be advanced materials?  sly 

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
wasn't Emirates the asking party for the stretched 787?

Emirates told Boeing they were not interested in -700 or-800 version of the B787 at which point Boeing evaluated a possible stretch version (dubbed the -B787-100X). With a few days left for the Dubai Airshow, and nothing concrete from Boeings side, I very much doubt a B787 order from Emirates. They are much more likely to order B777s and A350s.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
It's not called the 797 or anything silly like that

That's because they want to keep the 797 designator free for the future when they need to build a competitor to the A380... they had no other choice but to keep it a B747  Wink

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
And I doubt they've been so dazzled by Boeing and Airbus PowerPoint presentations that they have taken leave of their senses and ordered 787s and A380s because the models of them look cool on their desk.

Very good point  checkmark 

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
The differences are the new JumboJet costs a lot less to develop than the A350 and the new JumboJet is aimed squarely between the A340-600 and the WhaleJet while the A350 is aimed directly at the B787/B777-200ER. In other words, the A350 is competing with some of Boeing's best, while the JumboJet is going after a market where Airbus has no competitor.

True. This is something so many people (who keep making these incorrect comparisons) do not realise. The B748 is not in the same market as the A380. The A350 is not in the same market as the B787. Get over it people! These aircraft all have different charasteristics and vary from eachother enough to class them into different segments of the industry.
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
Boogyjay
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 35):
Airbus claimed that the A350 was a "new design, new plane, etc.", not a derivative of the A330 (although we know better)

Boeing hasn't made this claim of the 747-8.

Well, looking at the money spent on the A350 ($5Bn) vs the B747-8 ($1.5Bn) and even the the B787 ($8Bn), it's not far fetched to say "the A350 is an all-new airplane".

While the development costs of a bigger airplane are often higher, the ones for the B747-8 are more than 3 times lower than those of the A350, an airplane which is ~2 times smaller.

So, one might effectively argue that the A350 is more an "all-new airplane" than the B747-8 is but -obviously- less an "all-new airplane" than the 787.

I also think a dev cost of $5Bn justifies a new designation. Big grin So it's not very fair to say " the A350 is exactly like the B747-8, i.e. a variant of an old model, but Boeing are more honest by keeping the original name".
 
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Stitch
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 20):
Uh, hello! The B747-8 has only been available for 3 days.

I should have been clearer when I said "Next Gen 747" - I am referring also to the 745 and 746 from 1996 and the 74G/74X from 2000.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 29):
So Airbus is looking to the growing Chinese Aerospace industry. China will give them orders in return.

And Bush just honked off the Chinese with some comments about Taiwan, so Toulousse can expect a phone call shortly ordering some more Airbus planes, but I guess those orders shouldn't be counted either, since Boeing never had a chance thanks to the President.  Yeah sure
 
Wiggidy
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:03 am

ENOUGH with the 7478 doesnt compete with the A380 arguments. Even Mullaly stated publicly that it IS a competitor. Despite size difference and what the armchair CEOs here think, this is Boeings answer to the A388. Every top B exec has had some comment comparing their new plane to the A380, no doubt this is also how they are marketing it to airlines. They compete, the 380 is clearly the leader as of now, get over it.
-Wes
 
astuteman
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 39):
Well, looking at the money spent on the A350 ($5Bn) vs the B747-8 ($1.5Bn)

Except the 747-8 is nearer $4Bn, perhaps?
 
N79969
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Wiggidy (Reply 41):
Despite size difference and what the armchair CEOs here think, this is Boeings answer to the A388. Every top B exec has had some comment comparing their new plane to the A380, no doubt this is also how they are marketing it to airlines. They compete, the 380 is clearly the leader as of now, get over it.

Negative. This is not Coke versus Pepsi rather it is Betamax versus VHS. The A380 and 748 are head-on competitors. Boeing's message is not "buy our VLA instead of their VLA" rather it is more like "who really needs a VLA when a smaller, proven design can do what you need." The nuance is hugely important here. It is important to realize that for several A380 customers, the 747-8 is not a viable substitute.

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Yet, now we have the 748 and the Airbus haters are talking about how much less the 748 is in developement cost, and how it is going to be such a great plane.

Yet, the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

The criticisms are not gratutious as you imply. The question is which niche should makers be placing their big dollar bets? Airbus chose the VLA and Boeing chose the mid-size widebody niche. The economic circumstances are different in each and warrant different responses.

Boeing's assessment of the 747-plus size market led them to take a low-risk road whereas Airbus chose a high-risk path. The converse is true for the 767/330 market niche.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
And Bush just honked off the Chinese with some comments about Taiwan, so Toulousse can expect a phone call shortly ordering some more Airbus planes, but I guess those orders shouldn't be counted either, since Boeing never had a chance thanks to the President.

Well, what can we say... You guys' got yourselves a hell of a great diplomat...
  

Now about the A350 not being a brand new design, I think it's as much a new design as the A330 was over the A300, despite having the 'same' fuselage.

It will not be as much a 'breakthrough' design as the 787, granted.

[Edited 2005-11-17 18:50:48]
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
icarus75
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 10):
There are people here on A.net who - and they have written it specifically - are considering the industry as a football match where they are supporting the one team over against the other. This I find plain stupid. Not only do they not have any basis for serious discussion. I also fail to see (unless you are a major share holder or an employee) how it can be in our interest who of the two "wins" (whatever that means).

As citizens of the world it will have a huge impact how this industry develops as it plays a key role (in unison with other industries such as the communication and freight/shipping industry) in promoting the globalization process that is so transforming societies all over the world. The old theme being played ever since the Concord/747: better luxury for the few or cheaper travel for the many still is very important. Which of the two manufactures who at this point in time is promoting either of the two trends (they have changed roles before) is much less significant as to the question: in which direction is the world moving. The sports fanatics simply looses out of this blinded as they are by their narow minded way of looking at things.

I've only one thing to say : GREAT POST!!!
Flying is amazing!
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting Wiggidy (Reply 41):
ENOUGH with the 7478 doesnt compete with the A380 arguments. Even Mullaly stated publicly that it IS a competitor.

Don't planes compete on at least two levels.
1. Pax capicity
2. Range

The 787 can compete with the A380 in range. An airline could deploy two 787s on a route and increase frequency rather than fly one A380.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
N79969
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 43):
The A380 and 748 are head-on competitors.

I meant to say that they are "not" head-on competitors.
 
FaroeFlyer
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:13 am

I, for one, love airplanes. I just love them. All of them.

From the ultra-lights to the heavies. I admire all the manufacturers.

I can't believe my eyes when reading some of the posts here. What are we all fighting about? Really? Why can't the stars and stripes just accept the A380? It won't make the B747 any less beautiful or practical. I just feel disgusted when reading some of your totally ignorant arguments. I think the A380 is a great contribution to aviation just as the B747 has been for decades now. No one can take away what the B747 has given us all. Am I the only one to see this?

And the people here who keep bashing either manufacturer, remember: you are not true aviation enthusiasts...

[Edited 2005-11-17 20:40:16]
Cast your dancing spell my way...
 
Amy
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RE: A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
So Airbus went back and with the latest, really tweaked the A350 design. Boeing did much the same with their latest - the 747-8. Neither is as "gee-whizz" as the leader (the 787 and the A388), however they do offer benefits over their previous models and an incentive to current customers of those models to move forward "in the family". Not most of them, to be sure. Maybe not many of them, but enough to justify the R&D expense and keep the lines open for another decade or more.

 checkmark 

Quoting FaroeFlyer (Reply 48):

I can't believe my eyes when reading some of the posts here. What are we all fighting about? Really? Why can't the stars and stripes just accept the A380? It won't make the B747 any less beautiful or practical. I just feel disgusted when reading some of your totally ignorant arguments. I think the A380 is a great contribution to aviation just as the B747 has been for decades now. No one can take away what the B747 has given us all. Am I the only one to see this?

And the people here who keep bashing either manufacturer, remember: you are not true aviation enthusiasts...

 thumbsup 

well said.

Boeing and Airbus have both stated that the 747-8 freighter and the A380 freighter will do battle. Whilst the A380 may be larger and have a higher MTOW, the 747F's nose door and interior (hump cockpit too) make it a more practical choice, especially for loading large objects/palettes.

The 747-8 will also have the advantage of commonality with current 747 operators, including the revised 747-400 style cockpit and i would imagine a fair amount of parts and maintainance comonality to help increase savings.

I can see the point. Why does the A350 get bashed for being a 'warmed over A330' when it is really not a warmed over A330, yet the 747-8 gets praise when it most certainly is a warmed over 747?

What can I say? It's a crazy world is a.net.
A340-300 - slow, but awesome!