db373
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Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:39 am

http://www.nbc6.net/news/5341085/detail.html


Sorry if this has already been discussed, but this is starting to get a little ridiculous. It seems like these near-misses have been happening a lot lately. Is this the case, or are they just getting more media coverage?
Keep Delta My Delta
 
NIKV69
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:55 am

Wow!  eyepopping 

100 feet is nothing! I guess the airlines and airports do a good job of keeping this away from the media.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:08 am

Sigh...

Forget the media graphic, it's worthless...

It sounds like the smaller jet was told to "position and hold" at the end of the runway, meaning that he wasn't pointed -at- the 737 like the media graphic shows, but was in fact pointed in the same direction, and was at the end (not the middle) of the runway, with the 737 coming in to land on the same runway.

If any of this seems vaguely familar, it's pretty much the same scenario of the LAX accident some years ago where ATC had a Skywest turboprop position and hold on 24L and a USAir 737 landed on top of him. That one was at night, but the scenario can also occur in the daytime. Just a few months ago, there was a SWA 737 position and hold on LAX's 24L and an Asiana 747 almost landed on top of him. The 747 crew caught the controller's error and went around on his own, missing the 737 by 100-200 feet.

Automation is one thing, but human error is another...

[Edited 2005-11-17 02:09:46]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
cancidas
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:19 am

i've seen it happen with a riddle 172 and a private arrow at PRC.... sounds like an ATC foul-up again.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 2):
It sounds like the smaller jet was told to "position and hold" at the end of the runway, meaning that he wasn't pointed -at- the 737 like the media graphic shows, but was in fact pointed in the same direction, and was at the end (not the middle) of the runway, with the 737 coming in to land on the same runway.

OPNL, you are 100% correct. How do I know this? I personally witnessed the event myself.

I normally commute home via I-595 at around 5:15-5:30. However, that evening, I had to stay at work late to finish up a project. I finally left work around 6:30, and joined I-595 westbound from US-1 about 10 minutes later. As an aviation enthusiast, I always glance over toward the field while on that particular stretch of highway, and I happened to notice a 737 on short final.

A few seconds later, I glanced back toward the landing traffic, and...What the hell? He's going around! I couldn't immediately see if there was anyone on the runway since the hangars & buildings to my left blocked the view of the runway itself, but as I passed the Fedex facility, I could clearly see the RJ in position.

At that point, I wasn't sure if the RJ had been given the "position & hold" clearance because the 737 went around, or if it was there the whole time; I didn't know if enough time had elapsed for him to be able to get into position from the time the go-around had been initiated to the time when I saw him. After reading the article today, I now know that I had truly witnessed a runway incursion (and thankfully nothing more).

-Bryan
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
TPAnx
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:15 pm

To pick a nit...it's near-collision...not near-miss.
TPAnx (whose mom was an old-school english teacher, and whose blood pressure rises every time he hears the suddenly in-vogue phrase..."went missing"  banghead 
I read the news today..oh boy
 
miamix707
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:55 pm

I saw something similar at Miami once. A BA 747 was on the runway about to take off and a Mexicana 727 was aproaching on the same runway, (he had the sun on his back and all) so I'm wondering why the Mexicana jet waited almost until coming iinside the Airport boundaries to pull up and away. Distracted crew or..?
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:32 pm

Poor ATC. I wonder if he was in on OT.
DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:36 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 4):
I personally witnessed the event myself.

Glad you got to see it, and confirm my suspicions. I actually started laughing when I first saw the station's animation, but then started shaking my head in disbelief. It was another reminder to me that what we see is not necessarily the actual news, but their opinion of the news, and that being further filtered by their lack of understanding of technical and procedural items in aviation, or other fields.

Of course, many of the folks who saw the animation are going wonder "why was the guy on the runway headed straight at the other guy?"

Glad it didn't result in metal-to-metal contact....  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
MarshalN
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:50 pm

I was on a flight before going into EWR where the plane ahead of us got stuck on a taxiway with a tail sticking out. We had to go around, but the pilot in this case also initiated go around fairly late even though I'm sure he saw it all along
 
YV136C
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:07 am

Having spent a lot of time at FLL I can honestly say these ATC guys really push tin! I have witnessed a couple of go arounds, latest one being an AV 757 having to go around in quite a hurry to avoid landing on a AA 738 holding in position. This happens a lot during high traffic times (around 5pm), you will see these guys squeeze a couple of departures when a plane is just 4 miles out, also you see Pilots taking their sweet time to begin the take off roll after they've been cleared....you can hear the ATC telling them: No delay!

Luis
YV136C
Proud to work for Embraer FLL!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:10 am

The NTSB is saying this is proof that pilots/airlines/aircraft need better navigation equipment...but isn't this a case of ATC needing better equipment???
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 8):
I actually started laughing when I first saw the station's animation

I personally like the gratuitous inclusion of a 727, 757 and 767 (I think) among the 12 pictures in the slide show.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 12):
I personally like the gratuitous inclusion of a 727, 757 and 767 (I think) among the 12 pictures in the slide show.

I saw that too. I was sorta surprised not to see a slide of a DC-3 or the Wright Flyer in there...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:35 am

something is wrong here for me. i fly small planes, piper cherokees and stuff... there have been a handful of times when i was on short final and the airplane in front hadn't cleared the runway. i don't ask ATC for a go around nor do i wait for them to tell me. i start my go around procedeure and then TELL ATC i am going around. something isn't adding up with these stories. why don't the pilots see the airplane on the runway and go around themselves?
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
Rick767
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting TPAnx (Reply 5):
To pick a nit...it's near-collision...not near-miss

It is not, a "near miss" is the correct terminology, a combination of "near thing" and "miss".

-----------------------------------------------------------------
near miss
n.
1. A narrowly avoided collision involving two or more aircraft, ships, boats, or motor vehicles.
2. A narrowly avoided mishap.
3. An accidental collision that is narrowly avoided.
4. A missile strike that is extremely close to but not directly on target.
5. Something that fails by a very narrow margin: Her campaign for the Senate was a near miss.

[Blend of near thing, and miss.]
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Darrenthe747 (Reply 14):
why don't the pilots see the airplane on the runway and go around themselves?

I would assume, flying small planes myself, it is because they are on a schedule and do not want to deviate from said schedule as a go-around in an airliner takes longer that it does for you and I in our Piper, and Cessna, respectively to go-around. I would guess he continued his approach hoping that the other a/c would clear the runway so he would not have to go-around, thus saving time and money for the airline.
Life is better when you surf.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Wow!

100 feet is nothing!

Uhhhhh, if the illustration has any sense of accuracy, it looks like the US Airways jet would've crushed the little commuter jet right on. I believe 100 feet was referring to the vertical distance between the airplanes. Good thing it was able to climb back up. How can a traffic controller make such a mistake? Sigh  banghead  I think traffic control should be automated with human supervision. Most likely going to be less human error, well unless the computers crash, in which case it's going to be big doo doo.  faint 
 
NiteRider30
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:56 am

Good afternoon. Is there any information on what instructions the RJ was given by ATC? I'd like to know if the RJ was cleared to "hold short" of the runway, or cleared to "taxi into position and hold". Those of you who are calling "ATC error" need to wait and see what ATC actually told them to do. Also, I won't concede that ATC was delayed in issuing missed approach instructions unless we know WHEN the RJ taxied on to the runway.

-Mike
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:59 am

I'll agree...
FLL rushes planes out, the animation sucks, and airlines want to be on a schedule...

I hope this doesn't happen on my flight to FLL tomorrow!
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
luisca
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:08 am

It should be standart procedure to require the FO or Captain, whoever has a clear view of the final approach side of the runway to visually confirm there are no aircraft on finals when authorized to move to the runway. And give a verbal confirmation to whoever is taxiing the aircraft.

When I am taxiing I have to call out clear finals. I am now used to always always always confirming there are no aircraft on finals. ATC is human, and errors can be made, a pilot can not blindly trust what tower tells him.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
NiteRider30
Posts: 145
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 20):
It should be standart procedure to require the FO or Captain, whoever has a clear view of the final approach side of the runway to visually confirm there are no aircraft on finals when authorized to move to the runway. And give a verbal confirmation to whoever is taxiing the aircraft.

When I am taxiing I have to call out clear finals. I am now used to always always always confirming there are no aircraft on finals. ATC is human, and errors can be made, a pilot can not blindly trust what tower tells him.

I agree with this sentiment completely. As someone very in tune with both the pilot and ATC side of things, it should be understood that the captain is indeed the final say in what happens with that aircraft. ATC is human, they can and do make errors. In this particular situation, we don't know yet what ATC told the pilot of the RJ to do. However, if the captain or FO of the RJ had checked the final approach path before taking the runway, this incursion might have been avoided. As you can see here, loss of separation usually includes multiple factors, not limited to pilot error, ATC error, weather, equipment malfunction, etc.

-Mike
 
crjflyer35
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 20):
a pilot can not blindly trust what tower tells him.

 highfive  Totally! When I'm sitting in the left seat, I am the PIC, therefore, what ATC tells me isn't final, because I'm the one responsible for the safety of my aircraft and those around me, hence, I make the final call.
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:17 am

Quote:
FutureUALpilot
I would assume, flying small planes myself, it is because they are on a schedule and do not want to deviate from said schedule as a go-around in an airliner takes longer that it does for you and I in our Piper, and Cessna, respectively to go-around. I would guess he continued his approach hoping that the other a/c would clear the runway so he would not have to go-around, thus saving time and money for the airline.

I used to be stationed at Rhein Main AB, Germnay for 3 years (Frankfurt Intl EDDF) and worked on the flightline. I used to sit and watch airplanes takeoff and land for hours at a time. Once I saw an A346 at the end of his takeoff roll on 25R, still on the runway though starting to rotate, when a 744 was touching down on the same runway. Granted there were several thousand feet seperation, it was pretty close to a go around. the point of the story is that airlines definitely need to be consious of the huge operating/time costs involved in a go-around, and thus cut things close like that. But if there's an airplane sitting at the start of a runway and clearly isn't going to be out of your way, ATC doesn't need to tell you to go-around. i have seen dozens of go-arounds at FRA, so i know they can do it.
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting NiteRider30 (Reply 18):
Good afternoon. Is there any information on what instructions the RJ was given by ATC? I'd like to know if the RJ was cleared to "hold short" of the runway, or cleared to "taxi into position and hold".

You make an excellent point, which I'm happy to concede. My initial mention of the RJ being "position and hold" was based on the media's quote "A Comair commuter jet waiting to takeoff was told by a controller to "hold" at the end of the runway". That could be the media's "translation" of either "hold short" or "position and hold", and you're correct, the tapes/investigation will show us which it really was, and who made the mistake.

In any event, that graphic was just plain goofy....  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jblake1
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:19 am

On my last two flights to FLL both have been go arounds due to traffic on the runway. One I was sitting on a Delta 767 and another was on a NWA DC9.

I thought it was pretty interesting to be on 2 different inbound FLL flights about a month apart and have them both go around.

btw... from an enthusiast perspective the dc9 go around was a lot more fun to ride on.
 
tguman
Posts: 380
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:44 am

Wouldn't spool up time also have something to do with the reason it came so close. Anyone here actually fly a 737 who would be able to tell me what the average "spool up time" would be on a go-around. If so, maybe that is the cause for the aircraft going down so low. It could have initiated the missed approach but had to wait for the engines to spool.

Don't jump down my throat if i am wrong. I am a lowly CPL who hasnt flown anything bigger than a Cessna 206.

TGUman
Life is a Mine Field.
 
luisca
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:38 am

Quoting Tguman (Reply 26):
Wouldn't spool up time also have something to do with the reason it came so close. Anyone here actually fly a 737 who would be able to tell me what the average "spool up time" would be on a go-around. If so, maybe that is the cause for the aircraft going down so low. It could have initiated the missed approach but had to wait for the engines to spool.

You are correct, jet spool up can take anywhere from 3-6 seconds after the throtle is firewalled. traveling at 140 KTS and 600 FPS that means that the jet would have travelled anywhere between 700 to 1400 feet horizontally and 30 to 60 feet vertically before the airplane can initiate a climb. the airplane has to then decrease vertical speed and then increase it again. Add to that reaction time and you get a descent of about 200-250 feet and about 2500 feet of horizontal distance before the plane starts to climb
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:40 am

From idle to full throttle is only a few seconds. if it took that long to spool up there would be an awful lot more crashes. imagine you were only 50 feet off the runway and had to go around, or found yourself in a windshear... it would be game over.
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
jumpseatflyer
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:13 pm

RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:28 am

Has anyone ever played Airport Tycoon?

I think they ripped those graphics right out of the game.

BTW, I knew before I clicked on this that it was media hype. Even when something serious happens [not saying that runway incursion isn't serious], they still hype it up beyond reasonable beleif.
 
tguman
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 11:47 pm

RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:50 am

The engines would not have been at idle. But there still is the fact that it would take time to get power. and when your going slow, it does make much of difference. When your fast, it does.
Life is a Mine Field.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 16):
Quoting Darrenthe747 (Reply 14):
why don't the pilots see the airplane on the runway and go around themselves?

I would assume, flying small planes myself, it is because they are on a schedule and do not want to deviate from said schedule as a go-around in an airliner takes longer that it does for you and I in our Piper, and Cessna, respectively to go-around. I would guess he continued his approach hoping that the other a/c would clear the runway so he would not have to go-around, thus saving time and money for the airline

There should have been no question. Granted it started with the controllers being to blame, but the pilots continuing to land after seeing a plane on the runway is obviously a serious problem. I know there is a need for more devices to prevent situations like this in the first place, but the pilots should have gone around without a question of being on schedule (or any other reason). If they are thinking that way, they should not be flying. I think you are wrong about being on schedule. Compromising safety for a schedule, especially in this situation, is stupid and irresponsible.

M
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting Darrenthe747 (Reply 23):
i have seen dozens of go-arounds at FRA, so i know they can do it.

I agree that they should have gone around, no question. I would have too in their situation. All I was saying is that I can understand why they might want to continue as long as is safe before electing to go around.
Life is better when you surf.
 
tguman
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 11:47 pm

RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:08 pm

What if the other aircraft wasn't taxied into position yet? What if the the other plane had been told by the controller "Traffic is a 737 on final approach, after it lands, taxi to position and hold." What if there was a mix up by the pilot in the RJ? What if he or she was just taxiing into position? Lets not jump down United's throat for pushing the envelop, we just don't know enough about the situation.

Boy would I love to have the recordings from the Tower.

TGUman
Life is a Mine Field.
 
NiteRider30
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:34 am

RE: Jets Nearly Collide At Ft. Lauderdale Airport

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting Tguman (Reply 33):
What if the other aircraft wasn't taxied into position yet? What if the the other plane had been told by the controller "Traffic is a 737 on final approach, after it lands, taxi to position and hold." What if there was a mix up by the pilot in the RJ? What if he or she was just taxiing into position? Lets not jump down United's throat for pushing the envelop, we just don't know enough about the situation.

Agreed. We simply do not know what transpired yet. I even attempted to go to liveatc.net, where they have a feed based at FXE (Fort Lauderdale Executive) but also picks up FLL tower. I picked up the archive from when the article said the near miss occured, but was unable to hear anything involving this incident. I'm going to give it another listen tonight, as I didn't have much time last night. Either way, it's inconclusive. Nobody, including the pilots and ATC, should be blamed at this point.

-Mike

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