Tiger119
Topic Author
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:52 pm

U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:45 am

Can carriers based outside of The United States fly routes leaving an airport in The United States with a destination city in a third country? Example, can MX fly a route say from IAH to YYZ? I know a "foreign" carrier cannot fly between two U.S. airports unless it is one leg of two, like the JL flight from LAS to LAX then on to Japan, and the QF flight from Australia to LAX then on to JFK. What FAR do these rulings come under?


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commavia
Posts: 10074
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Tiger119 (Thread starter):
Can carriers based outside of The United States fly routes leaving an airport in The United States with a destination city in a third country?

It depends on the nationality of the foriegn airline, and the bilateral aviation treaty that nation has with the U.S.

What you refer to -- if I understand you right -- is called the 5th Freedom right, allowing an airline from Nation A to fly to Nation B, pick up passengers, and then carry them on to Nation C. Some countries have these types of arrangements with the U.S. -- like Spain, for example, and Canada as of next year -- while others do not. It just depends on the country.
 
yvrsr
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:09 pm

Quoting Tiger119 (Thread starter):
Can carriers based outside of The United States fly routes leaving an airport in The United States with a destination city in a third country?

Yes.

Currently, CX flies between YVR and JFK. Before HKG-SFO nonstop started, CX used to fly HKG-YVR-SFO, with full 5th Freedom rights between YVR and SFO. Philippine Airlines flies between YVR and LAS. There may be other examples with YYZ being the intermediate point, but I don't know off hand.

I don't know the general rules -- may differ country to country, as mentioned in the previous post.
 
loisencroach
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:56 am

RE: U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:15 pm

As stated earlier, it depends on the bilateral agreement between the two nations. For instance, Cathay flies from Toronto to Anchorage, and then on to Hong Kong. However, the pax aren't allowed to deplane, nor does Cathay sell tix for the ANC-HKG leg, because no bilateral agreements have been established between Hong Kong, Canada, and the U.S.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4402
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Loisencroach (Reply 3):
As stated earlier, it depends on the bilateral agreement between the two nations. For instance, Cathay flies from Toronto to Anchorage, and then on to Hong Kong. However, the pax aren't allowed to deplane, nor does Cathay sell tix for the ANC-HKG leg, because no bilateral agreements have been established between Hong Kong, Canada, and the U.S.

There are bilateral agreements between HKG & the US and between HKG & Canada. Its just that the ANC stop falls outside either bilateral treaty. It is approved as a "technical stop", generally MOST countries will agree to these outside bilateral treaties.

QF is shortly to resume services SYD-SFO-YVR, apparently they have 5th freedom rights SFO-YVR. They also have 5th freedom rights JFK-LHR, which are not currently being used.

Gemuser
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loisencroach
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:56 am

RE: U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 4):
There are bilateral agreements between HKG & the US and between HKG & Canada.

You're right. I should have clarified that they don't have bilateral agreements concerning cabotage rights from ANC.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:52 pm

Quoting Loisencroach (Reply 5):
concerning cabotage rights

YYZ-ANC isn't cabotage. If authorised in both ASAs it would be a 5th freedom sector.

Air New Zealand operates LAX - LON with full 5th freedom rights.

The freedoms of the air (or at least the first 5) come from the Chicago convention.
 
loisencroach
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:56 am

RE: U.S. FARs/Foreign Carrier Routes/Regulations

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 6):
YYZ-ANC isn't cabotage

Oops, you're right. Cabotage would be two domestic points operated by a foreign carrier. Thanks for the correction.

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