Garri767
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Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:53 pm

they are the few majors that i know dont have a 747 in their fleet, i know co used to after purchasing people express, but have retired it, any hope out there?
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
squirrel83
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:55 pm

Will they purchase the 747 again would be a the right title?

With the 747-8 it would be kewl to have 20 orders from AA!
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
b741
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:56 pm

They have operated them in the past but now they don't. I would have to say a big no on this one.
Being Bilingual, I Speak English And Aviation
 
FA4B6
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:57 pm

AA used to have 747s ..


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commavia
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:59 pm

No.

They are way too big for the networks of American, Continental, and/or Delta.

While all these airlines could probably fill 747s profitably here and there, on some routes, some days, some seasons, none could consistently fill enough flights year-round to justify the huge costs associated with introducing a new type so foreign to any of their fleets.
 
jay767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:01 pm

all three operated them at one time,unless something changes in air travel not one of those three will ever operate the 747 again.
 
Garri767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting Jay767 (Reply 5):
all three operated them at one time

i never knew delta operated 747s.....

Garri767 Big grin
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
Garri767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
They are way too big for the networks of American, Continental, and/or Delta.

what about for the trans-atlantic routes? they all operate them one way or another..
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
letsgetwet
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:12 pm

CO has come to the conclusion that bigger is not better, and I think they are on to something.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:12 pm

NW still has some 747's, mostly freighters.
Yes, AA operated 747's (and DC-10's) for a number of years in International as well as Domestic USA transcon and Hawaii services. Over the years, the 767's and 777's replaced them as to international and long haul USA services.
CO had 747's for a few years from their buyout in 1987(?) of PeopleExpress when they failed.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:13 pm

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 6):
i never knew delta operated 747s.....


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ckfred
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:15 pm

Bob Crandall decided years ago that AA would not buy any airplanes that had 4 engines. That incresed the cost of maintenance.

So that precludes both the 747 and the A340.
 
Garri767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 11):
747 and the A340.

so apparently the avro, is off their list too?  Wink lol

Garri767 Big grin
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
MHTMDW
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:22 pm

CO was an original operator of the 747. Used them mainly to HNL. Somwhere in my collection of emphera is a Venture magazine with an ad intoducing the service...artwork by Peter Max... First Class lounge was the Diamond Head Room, Coach lounge was the Polynesian Pub
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:23 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
NW still has some 747's, mostly freighters.
Yes, AA operated 747's (and DC-10's) for a number of years in International as well as Domestic USA transcon and Hawaii services. Over the years, the 767's and 777's replaced them as to international and long haul USA services.
CO had 747's for a few years from their buyout in 1987(?) of PeopleExpress when they failed.

NW has been phasing out the 742's for quite some time now. They still fly a fair number of 744's, though I'm not 100% sure of the numbers.

AA had a small fleet of 747's back in the 70's. Bob Crandall, however, was notorious for his hatred for the aircraft because of its high operating costs. I believe at one time he called the 767 the "747 killer."

CO first aquired 747's in the early 70's in hopes the Nixon Administration would grant them rights to fly to the South Pacific. Despite heavy lobbying by Continental, the routes were awarded to American. CO was then stuck with these big white elephants that they flew on their US-Hawaii routes for a brief period before they got too expensive and were removed from service. CO boasted that their 747 only had something like 280 seats on them which would have driven the cost per seat-mile through the roof. The later ones I believe were inherited from People Express when they merged.

Back then, the prestige of flying these beamoths sometimes outweighed their practicality. Other airlines who flew them besides DL were National, and Eastern (EA's aircraft were leased from Pan Am.)

Addendum: I'm speculating here, but my guess why the big airlines (particularly in the US) haven't gone for the A-380 in huge numbers is they remember their experiences with the 747. It's a totally different industry these days, and is so competitive they can't afford to be capricious with costs the way they once were.

Charles, SJ

[Edited 2005-11-17 05:26:39]
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commavia
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:23 pm

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 7):
what about for the trans-atlantic routes?

What about them? AA, CO and DL all do quite well with just a mix of 757s, 767s, and 777s. No 747s needed.

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 7):
they all operate them one way or another..

???  Smile
 
474218
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:24 pm

All three AA, CO, and DL don't have the routes that require a B747 size aircraft. The B787 seem to be a much better fit.
 
Garri767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
???

i meant they all operate transatlantic routes one way or another
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
AirEMS
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:27 pm

IMO I think that all three carriers are happy with their 777 fleets I don't know if Delta is in a position to order new a/c while in chapter 11 and I think no matter what shape the A.net forum says CO or AA are in I would venture to say they don't want to make big splashes is a pool that could be growing shallow quickly....... again IMO

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jay767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:30 pm

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 6):

i never knew delta operated 747s.....

Now you know they did Big grin
 
Garri767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:31 pm

Quoting Jay767 (Reply 19):
Now you know they did

lol sorry my memories a bit dazed since 1976 :P
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
jay767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:36 pm

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 20):
lol sorry my memories a bit dazed since 1976 :P

Well I was born in 1973,so I can't remember even that far back,who am I kidding I can't remember last week  Yeah sure
 
centrair
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:00 pm

I would hate to be throwing some negative thinking around, but I don't think that really the 747 will be with many US carriers in the future. UA and NW are the only US carriers operating 747s now. UA uses them on their high density routes to Europe and Asia but otherwise they go 777. NW didn't get ETOPS until they started operating the A330, if I am wrong, please correct me. But since they did Trans-pac and transatlantic, the DC10 and 747 did the job well for them.

For the longest time these two were the only U.S. carriers with significant operations to Asia (kind of still are). So they needed large planes to meet the demand. They also have coveted 5th freedom to Japan which was needed as planes could not make many flights past that mark. The 777 made it possible for frequency and one could bi-pass NRT, but still the 747 was needed for the longer routes like ORD-HKG. Next we have the 787 which will allow frequency with a smaller plane and more destination possiblities without needs for tech-stops or 5th freedom rights. This could allow airlines like DL, AA and CO to compete with UA and NW on point to point routes. As a result of this, the 747 becomes over kill and could be too much of a plane for the frequencies.

You could see NW actually get rid of their 747s and replace all of their routes with frequency using 787s. DTW-NRT could go to triple daily with 787s. MSP-NRT could maintain doubles with 787s. DTW-NGO/KIX could go to Doubles with 787s. Then NW takes massive advantage of their 5th freedom. They could also just start flying over NRT making the 747 unneccessary. Right now NW is using 757s and A330s on their thinner NRT-Asia routes. The 747s are only doing the super heavy. But with 787s these could be North America direct or frequency.

Now the only thing that could make the 747 viable in the future with any U.S. Carrier would be the North America-Australia routes which are not as yet able to get ETOPS. But as UA is the only U.S. Carrier with non-stop US-NZ/OZ flights they will need to keep the 747 in sights. Once twins get ETOPS on the North America-OZ/NZ, airlines will choose to fly those planes to save on fuel and maintenance costs.

The only other thing that could keep the 747 viable in my opinion is slot restriction or extreme demand that an airline MUST use a plane larger than a 777.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 7):
what about for the trans-atlantic routes? they all operate them one way or another..

Nope...twin jets with ETOPS make the most sense on these routes. CO and AA even run 757s.

Quoting MHTMDW (Reply 13):
CO was an original operator of the 747. Used them mainly to HNL

Also SEA-NRT, and MEL-AKL and AKL-SYD in the late 80's. Burnt meatball across the pond!
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:19 pm

All three carriers have operated the 747.

If they could be operated profitably, they would still be in the fleet.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
COSPN
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:13 pm

Been there done that..for CO ..2 Engines burn less than 4...there are very few routes that it can do...only EWR-TLV would make sense and EWR-NRT mabe?? so having 2-4 planes flying TLV-EWR-NRT each day just doent make any sense...777 is the way to go...the Future not the past...
 
Lemurs
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:20 pm

It seems to me that if any of them were seriously considering or in need of a 744 or 748, they'd already have ordered or be considering the 773ER. The fact that none of them have even been rumored to be interested in an airplane larger than a 772 suggests the 747 is off their radar entirely.
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United Airline
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
NW still has some 747's, mostly freighters.



Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 14):
NW has been phasing out the 742's for quite some time now. They still fly a fair number of 744's, though I'm not 100% sure of the numbers.

NW's B 747 fleet is quite large and they operate both the B 747-200 and 400.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 22):
UA uses them on their high density routes to Europe and Asia but otherwise they go 777

Also to Australia

Quoting Centrair (Reply 22):
You could see NW actually get rid of their 747s and replace all of their routes with frequency using 787s

Doubt it. Many of NW's routes need the capacity of the B 747 and they can't afford to offload them. They are cashcows in many ways and they manage to fill them from time to time.

I see them getting the B 747-8 one day
 
tsaord
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:57 pm

i thought nw would one day faze out boeing and be an all airbus fleet....?
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Garri767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:07 pm

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 28):
airbus fleet....?

not in a while thanks to their massive DC-10 fleet. but i too can see them phasing out the 747 .
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
kkfla737
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:54 pm

America West actually acquired some 747 IRC for possible flights to Asia which never took off in mass. I believe HP may have flown the 747s to Hawaii and maybe for a year or so to Japan but that was the extent of it.
 
drerx7
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:24 pm

Only U.S. carriers with sizeable ops in Asia really need 744s i.e. NW and UA. The next carrier up would be Continental--but they will focus on the 787 and 777 for that.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
copter808
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:41 am

All this discussion about 747 operating costs seems to be looking back at the present series of aircraft, not the 747-8. We don't know what the operating costs will be for this airplane. If--and that's a mighty big IF--the operating costs could be lowered to match that of a 777, you would see a tremendous market. I'm not referring to seat mile cost, but the total operating cost.

If the seat mile cost could match the 777, you might still see some interest, but not enough to generate any sales. I think most carriers would rather have the flexibility to operate 2 777s on a route instead of 1 747 if the cost was the same.

I think (hope) there is a market for the plane, but I don't expect to see US carriers lined up to buy them.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 3):
AA used to have 747s



Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 14):
AA had a small fleet of 747's back in the 70's

I flew on two of them back in April of 1982: LAX-HNL, and HNL-DFW.

I do remember our LAX-HNL flight was AA flt 1. Route was JFK-LAX-HNL. We hooked up with it in LAX. Flew:

DTW-LAX AA 727-200
LAX-HNL AA 747-100
HNL-OGG HA MD-81

OGG-HNL HA MD-81
HNL-DFW AA 747-100
DFW-DTW AA 727-200
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
N276AASTT
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:07 am

With the new 777LR coming on line, these airlines can pretty much get to where they want with two engines vs four. It would be more practical to order these rather than introducing a new aircraft type into their fleets.
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nosedive
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 12):
so apparently the avro, is off their list too?   lol

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AA acquired these birds after they bought AirCal.

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 7):
what about for the trans-atlantic routes? they all operate them one way or another..

Meh DL only has 8 777's. With a plane that big in such small numbers I don't see how the 767 happy DL would want a 747...
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:12 am

Its a case of customer driven operational strategies.

The US Majors favour frequencies over size because thats what (they perceive) the US customer wants.

Frequencies are the defining aspect of US commercial aviation - thats why you see so many RJs - they would rather operate four RJ flights between point A and point B than two A320/737 flights.

Same with the long-haul stuff and why the 777 is about as large as you are likely to find in the main. DL, US, CO, AA are users of the 777 and have the 767 in large numbers for the same reason.

The 747/A380 is quite simply too much aircraft for their needs in a frequency driven strategy. UA and NW persist with the type across the Pacific because they do need the capacity AND the frequencies. There are not many routes that can support both.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
drerx7
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 35):
Meh DL only has 8 777's. With a plane that big in such small numbers I don't see how the 767 happy DL would want a 747...

Well--DL only has a couple because of contract issues if I recall. However, you are right--the 787 is what I'd bet the future DL would base its long haul ops on.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
BigOrange
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 12):
so apparently the avro, is off their list too?

Definitely! The production line at Woodford was closed after 9/11, and is now used for rework on the Nimrods (another 4 engine airplane designed on the Comet)

Shame really, I knew a few people who worked there, and a trip to Woodford to check the finishing sheds, used to break up the monotony of a day at MAN!
 
iluv747400
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 22):
The 777 made it possible for frequency and one could bi-pass NRT, but still the 747 was needed for the longer routes like ORD-HKG.

If the 777 can do EWR-HKG (which it does for CO), then it can do ORD-HKG.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 22):
Once twins get ETOPS on the North America-OZ/NZ, airlines will choose to fly those planes to save on fuel and maintenance costs.

UA flew the 777 already on LAX-AKL before withdrawing from the route entirely.


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da man
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:08 am

CO could possibly get the 747-8 if LHR was opened up from the Bermuda II restrictions. EWR-LHR and IAH-LHR, plus EWR-TLV and possibly EWR-NRT.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:00 am

I can never understand why many European carriers make the 747 work over the Atlantic while US carriers can not. Granted, even European carriers are starting to use the A330/340 and 767/777 more and more, but carriers like Air France and British Airways consistently use much larger aircraft (773 and 744) over the Atlantic and it works.

Landing at LHR and seeing the line up of BA 744s was one of the most impressive sites in aviation I have ever seen. By comparison, hubs in the US (at least from the ramp) are quite boring . . . JFK/EWR/MIA/LAX excluded.  Smile

PJ
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 41):
I can never understand why many European carriers make the 747 work over the Atlantic while US carriers can not. Granted, even European carriers are starting to use the A330/340 and 767/777 more and more, but carriers like Air France and British Airways consistently use much larger aircraft (773 and 744) over the Atlantic and it works.

The speculative answer for that is probably due to the frequency of flights. As a whole, do the North American carriers fly their trans-Atlantic routes more often per day than their European counterparts? If the answer is 'Yes'; then usage of smaller aircraft satisfies the frequency demand without needlessly over-increasing daily passenger capacity.
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dc10rules
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:50 am

KFLLCFII,

Very cool pic of the DL 747. I know DL has flown widebodies between ATL and Florida for awhile. Did they ever use the 747 for these routes? (My guess would be MCO for Disney traffic if used at all)

Fly safe!
 
N62NA
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting DC10rules (Reply 43):
I know DL has flown widebodies between ATL and Florida for awhile. Did they ever use the 747 for these routes?

They flew them into JAX of all places!
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 28):
i thought nw would one day faze out boeing and be an all airbus fleet....?

They ordered the 787, so they intend to operate a mixed fleet.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
airxliban
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting Iluv747400 (Reply 39):
UA flew the 777 already on LAX-AKL before withdrawing from the route entirely.

IIRC the route was never a success with the 772. Something to do with the lower MTOW on those birds, could someone clarify?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
Garri767
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 35):
Quoting Garri767 (Reply 12):
so apparently the avro, is off their list too? lol

Don't go into the photo database much, do ya Garri

i said for them buying it from now on
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!
 
HAWAIIAN932
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:39 am

Delta used to fly the 747 ATL-LAX. Back in the early 70's, CO's 747's had a "pub" in coach where you get snacks and popcorn etc. CO also used 747's on the HNL-GUM route. I flew that route about 7 years ago and the flight was full to the brim. That was one of the longest take-offs I've ever had. HP also used the 747 between PHX/LAS and HNL. Then continued on to Nagoya, Japan.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:45 am

Back in 1990, I got a chance to fly the HP 747-200's. Once from Phoenix to Honolulu via LAS and then on PHX-IAD for an equipment substitution
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!

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