DIA
Topic Author
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:32 am

I haven't heard a thing since Virgin's large order. Just wondering if there are more orders or interest on the horizon from any airlines...
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:07 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:42 am

I believe there are some RFPs out there that include the A346 for CX and QF. Also, I thought Lufthansa placed a follow on order for a few more A346s?
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
dhefty
Posts: 587
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:04 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:51 am

Earth to Lufthansa: Check your kerosene bill. It's overdue.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 3):
Earth to Lufthansa: Check your kerosene bill. It's overdue.

Earth to you: Check thier overall bill. They are very profitable and they know what they are doing.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
GDB
Posts: 12679
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:04 am

Since the later A340's were intended to keep the line going for a few years longer, it's already succeeded in that.
Many 'experts' on here were sure VS would go 777 last time, well they didn't for whatever reason.

It will have, in it's various versions, have soon been in production for 15 years, not bad for such an obsolete, useless aircraft.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:15 am

Anyway - back on topic.

I think once EH and EK's A340s are delivered that will be that - the A350 is the big seller now and IIRC they share a production line. It wont cost them anything to keep the specialist tooling etc - they may have some follow-ons from existing A340 operators but that will be that i think.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Ivo
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:49 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:21 am

At the Paris Airshow they sold a Vip A340-600 to a Saudi customer.

Ivo
 
dhefty
Posts: 587
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:04 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 4):
They are very profitable and they know what they are doing.

So what's wrong with making even more profit? Anyone that operates an A340 rather than a B777 has made a poor decision.

Earth to Lufthansa: All is forgiven. Come back to Seattle.
 
Lionel
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 4:09 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 15):
Anyone that operates an A340 rather than a B777 has made a poor decision.

Don't take it personal but somehow I don't like your style of arguing! Why don't you first get rid of your anti-airbus bias and than talk to us again?
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 15):
So what's wrong with making even more profit? Anyone that operates an A340 rather than a B777 has made a poor decision.

Is fuel burn the only way to judge a planes profitability????
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:48 am

There will be future orders for the A346, as its likely that airlines such as LH and IB will continue to add to their A346 fleets in the future for expansion and/or to replace A343s, but at the moment there does not seem to be a whole lot of interest in the A346 - there are several things to consider: the 773ER is hot at the moment and seems to be the aircraft of choice in the category, Airbus' own A359 may be directly and indirectly be affecting potential A346 sales, the 747-8 may have some impact on the A346's future, etc. There is a lot going on this segment.

EK has the A346 on order, although there has been so much speculation if EK will ever really get the aircraft - there were rumors about swapping A346 orders for A359 orders, rumors that EK would take additonal A380s in lieu of the the A346s, etc. If EK does order another 20+ 773ERs at the Dubai show, how will that impact the EK A346 order? Lots of quesitons.

CX is looking to expand and renew its longhaul fleet - and CX leases three A346s for use on its JFK-HKG route, and CX could order more of the type....but CX seems committed to the 747 family at the moment and its still unclear if CX will go with the 773ER or make a real committment to the A346 for longhaul. Something is up.

LH, VS, SA and other current operators are likely to top off their A346 fleets, but it just may be that Airbus curtailed future interest in all versions of the A330 and A340 families by lauching the A350 earlier than ever expected to compete with the 787 - a very interesting situation indeed and certainly one to watch.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23481
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:48 am

I don't see why Airbus can't keep selling A346HGWs to existing A330/A340 operators.

I do think the A345's days are done, as the 772LR seems to be posting better performance and efficiency numbers, but as everyone likes to say, ULR is a "niche" market (though Boeing thinks they can sell two hundred 772LRs and 772Fs over the program life).

The A350 will mostly negate the need for the A342 and A343 where ETOPS is not an issue (I imagine some routings might require/advise four engines), but that's not a bad thing, per se, since Airbus continues to offer a viable alternative for those operators who wish to replace older hulls.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 2):
In fact CX might be dumping theirs in favor of the 773ER.



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 21):
Because what you say is untrue. If you can back up all that crap about CX dumping theirs in favour of 777s then please share. If not - then...well... you know what you can do.

Look at the use of word, I said MIGHT BE DUMPING. There have been several rumors that CX is leaning towards ordering the 773ER, Even in this forum if you just do a search. When the order finally comes then I will be able to give you something to back up my claim. Until then I will continue to say that it is a possibility.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 18):
Is fuel burn the only way to judge a planes profitability????

This is precisely my point. Airlines analyze all aspects when deciding what to order. Fuel burn is better on the 777 NG's, but the cost of adding a new type, engine manufacturer, maintenance training, spare parts, etc sometimes outweigh the benefits of less fuel burn. LH, IB, VS all decided that adding a different fleet type even though that aircraft was more efficient in fuel burn and payload would hurt them more than it would help them.

And In my first post I said, most likely all new A345 and A346 orders will be add ons.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
LH459
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:41 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:10 am

Ah yes, the weekly "The A340 is crap, it's done for, it's a lousy airplane" etc etc etc thread!  Yeah sure
I can't believe some of you never get tired of this!
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:22 am

I think the 346's prospects will turn on the long-term price of oil. If the expectation is a continous rise, then the 346 will suffer. However if prices stabilize or even drop then the 346s prospects will improve.

One advantage of the 346 is the lower up-front capital costs. High oil prices eat into and have now overcome that advantage.
 
DIA
Topic Author
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:27 am

"Ah yes, the weekly "The A340 is crap, it's done for, it's a lousy airplane" etc etc etc thread!
I can't believe some of you never get tired of this!"



Wait a second here, buddy.

All I did was ask a simple question...I didn't anticipate an A vs. B battle.

As my question/interest was addressed in a timely fashion...I'm happy....

You don't like it...don't read it...but be careful with your finger-pointing
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
LH459
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:41 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 31):
Wait a second here, buddy.

All I did was ask a simple question...I didn't anticipate an A vs. B battle.

As my question/interest was addressed in a timely fashion...I'm happy....

You don't like it...don't read it...but be careful with your finger-pointing

I never said it was your fault, and your question was certainly valid. Nonetheless, the direction the thread took was sadly predictable. I read it because, optimist that I am, I had hopes that (for once) this wouldn't happen! Still, whenever the A340 is involved, some a.netters just can't resist.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 15):
Anyone that operates an A340 rather than a B777 has made a poor decision.

Yeah, every single airline that operates an A340 has made stupid decisions... Sure.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 19):
just today they announced further orders for 26

They haven't announced anything yet. They declined to comment on that story.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 19):
CX has a RFP out for the 773ER vs the A346, why have a RFP if you already operate one type?

Many reasons, e.g. to get a better price. If you only go to one manufacturer, they could raise the price. An RFP doesn't mean anything.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 19):
SQ already operate the A345 yet they will probably order 773ER and probably replace their A345's with 772LR's

Probably, probably. Let's wait and see.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 19):
If someone can post orders for A346 vs 773ER and A345 vs 772LR I am sure they will speak for themselves.

IIRC, the A345 and B772LR have sold approximately the same number of frames.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
though Boeing thinks they can sell two hundred 772LRs and 772Fs over the program life

If so, then the freighter will probably account for 80 percent of those orders.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 32):
A-340/200/300/400/500/600

I totally agree with you that the A340-400 is dead. As for the other models, they're alive and kicking and flying all over the world every day.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
NYC777
Posts: 5083
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 34):
I totally agree with you that the A340-400 is dead. As for the other models, they're alive and kicking and flying all over the world every day.

They may be flying today but the orders certainly aren't coming in. The 777 has seen to that.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:42 am

Geoffrey Thomas has reported from HKG on the "orders" forum that CX are believed to have chosen the 773ER over the 346HGW. With a 50+ 777 order coming up for EK at the DXB airshow, and both QF/SQ highly tipped to order 777s instead of A340s, surely the future is not very rosy for the A345/6.
It has been decimated this year by the 772LR/772F/773ER. You can't argue any other way.
Orders from smaller carriers(eg PR) and follow-ons from VS/LH etc look the best chance for future orders.
If, as predicted by some, EK orders 777s and cancels the 346 order and then SQ orders 772LRs to replace the 345s, then major airlines are rejecting the 345/6 big time.
 
na
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 2):
Other than follow on orders I woudl say the A340 is pretty much dead. The 773ER and 772LR are far superior to the A346 and A345 in all aspects. No new airline will probably be ordering them. In fact CX might be dumping theirs in favor of the 773ER.

...and others



Oh, the 777 worshippers having a run again.
But master Boeing himself tells you its going to make better aircraft soon, with lower costs, the 747-8I and the 787 will kick the 777 left and right, and I wouldn´t be surprised if the 777 production rate would drop to be less than 50% of todays output in 5 or 6 years when fleets are packed with them and the focus will change on to replacing 744s and early 777s.

As a passenger I say from my own experience I prefer the smooth A346 over the 773 anytime. Although I won´t argue its been very quiet around it businesswise, sad enough. The 777 proves to be better despite its basically a ridiculously expensive aircraft at base price. To say its "far superior" is false, it just suits the high fuel prices better.
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 30):
I think the 346's prospects will turn on the long-term price of oil. If the expectation is a continous rise, then the 346 will suffer. However if prices stabilize or even drop then the 346s prospects will improve.

One advantage of the 346 is the lower up-front capital costs. High oil prices eat into and have now overcome that advantage.

A point which most people in this thread have overlooked. Since the price of oil went up, proportionally orders for 340s have shrunk.

[Edited 2005-11-17 23:56:20]
 
Rizzibird
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2000 6:37 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:05 am

It's funny to hear some of our American friends claiming the A346 to be an unefficient gas-guzzler.  Wink Just past week I've read a newspaper article in which LH names the A346 as its most fuel-efficient aircraft, burning just 3,3 liters of fuel per passenger per 100 kilometers. Does anyone have numbers for the B773ER? Just wondering.  Wink
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:15 am

wbp has provided the data many times. The 777LRs fly further, faster, with more payload, on less fuel. The A340NG has the advantage of lower purchase price, no ETOPS restrictions (for now) and, according to SA, more compatibility with hot and high airfields.

Quoting Rizzibird (Reply 39):
I've read a newspaper article in which LH names the A346 as its most fuel-efficient aircraft,

Yes, and before FR got the 738, the 732 was its most efficient aircraft. What do you hope to prove?
 
Rizzibird
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2000 6:37 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 40):
, and before FR got the 738, the 732 was its most efficient aircraft. What do you hope to prove?

Sorry to say it this way, but this statement is just rediculous! The 732 and the 732 are something like 20 years apart, whereas the A346 and LH's other aircraft are just a few years apart. LH has a fairly modern fleet and the A346 is the most fuel-efficient aircraft within this fleet. So the A346 can't be as bad as many people on this board make it look. I don't say that it is more fuel efficient than the B773ER, but I have not found one single proof that it is the other way around either.
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting Rizzibird (Reply 39):
It's funny to hear some of our American friends claiming the A346 to be an unefficient gas-guzzler. Just past week I've read a newspaper article in which LH names the A346 as its most fuel-efficient aircraft, burning just 3,3 liters of fuel per passenger per 100 kilometers. Does anyone have numbers for the B773ER? Just wondering.

I think the A380 is 3 litres per 100km, cant the find 777 data though.
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting NA (Reply 37):
Oh, the 777 worshippers having a run again.
But master Boeing himself tells you its going to make better aircraft soon, with lower costs, the 747-8I and the 787 will kick the 777 left and right, and I wouldn´t be surprised if the 777 production rate would drop to be less than 50% of todays output in 5 or 6 years when fleets are packed with them and the focus will change on to replacing 744s and early 777s.

There have been numerous reports to the contrary. Boeing are reportedly looking at increasing 777 production rates to around 7/month from 2007 to meet the delivery schedules of airlines like EK,SQ,QF and CX.
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Rizzibird (Reply 41):
So the A346 can't be as bad as many people on this board make it look.

It's not that bad, no. But it is a noticeable disadvantage compared to the 77W. The point is that LH saying it is their most efficient aircraft doesn't mean much since they don't have 777s and the issue is A346 vs 77W. It's not that important if it's more efficient than a MD-11.

From wbp's table:
A346 4.49 kg/100NM.pax
B77W 4.06 kg/100NM.pax

[Edited 2005-11-18 00:56:33]
 
F4N
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2000 11:37 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting NA (Reply 37):
To say its "far superior" is false, it just suits the high fuel prices better.

NA:

In today's high fuel price environment, few things would define "far superior" more than that.

regards,

F4N
 
soylentgreen
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:49 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 19):
Why is it that whenever someone questions whether or not the 773ER and 772LR are superior to the A346 and A345 everyone says why no sources of information, etc. If I claim the world is round do I need to provide sources?

Way to go Luisca! In your face and sassy. I love it! And I agree with your assessment-the B777 is superior to the A340. Why? Because it is has technology that's 10 years newer than the 340, better interiors (as rated by passengers in so many surveys), better fuel efficiency by far, and is truly a world airplane as no current model has such an international manufactured component as this aircraft. My opinion only, I'm just a flyer not an engineer.
 
USADreamliner
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:33 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:58 am

Can you repeat the question please?  laughing   laughing 

Let's focus on the topic please...
I heard AR order the aircraft like 6 years ago, but I'm not sure about the situation of that order.

USADreamliner  wave 
 
trex8
Posts: 4661
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:21 am

RR may eventually incorporate some Trent1000/1700 tech into the 500, in which case you may suddenly find the A345/6 fuel burn sufficiently improved to make it a viable 773ER competitor. GE putting a GEnx version on the A346 would likely do similar.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 10103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 24):
wbp has provided the data many times. The 777LRs fly further, faster, with more payload, on less fuel. The A340NG has the advantage of lower purchase price, no ETOPS restrictions (for now) and, according to SA, more compatibility with hot and high airfields.

His data also showed that for over a 7500nm flight a A346 would take 2.5 t less payload than a 744, with burning 36t less fuel than a 744.

He does some fantastic work, however some of the performance numbers are wrong, eg SFC, cruise thrust, cruise fuel flow he uses trip fuel/flight time...

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
if there are more orders or interest on the horizon from any airlines...

Yes some interest, my view is I dont see any new orders until the Trent 1000 technology is ported to the Trent 500, should give 10-15% lower fuel burn for the Trent 500 series bringing the TSFC below the 77W. This can either be translated to increased range, or increased payload, or same range/payload with less fuel. I would see this as being a customer upgrade to existing customers also, like in service engines were upgraded on the 744.

Further down the track expect to see A350 style AL-LI fuselage sections, being 5% - 10% lighter, and A350 style wing improvements.

The main advantange the 77W has over the 346 is the TSFC of the engines, the 77W does this by having a very high bypass engine. Both GE and RR have improved the TFSC of their engines for the 787/350 programs without increasing the bypass ratio to the level of the GE90-115B.

The 345/346 stand to gain more from the 787/350 engine programs than what the 77W will.

I think the 748 will take away from 77W sales, espically airlines that have good loads on 744s now like QF, BA, CX, SQ, LH, AF, etc etc the 77W is too small, the 748 can take a better paload over a better range, last time I looked a 744 was cheaper to purchase than a 77W, if the 748 is the same price as the 744 airlines will have another factor to consider.

This is my personal view, the industry works in swings and round abouts.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 33):
His data also showed that for over a 7500nm flight a A346 would take 2.5 t less payload than a 744, with burning 36t less fuel than a 744.

He does some fantastic work, however some of the performance numbers are wrong, eg SFC, cruise thrust, cruise fuel flow he uses trip fuel/flight time...

Why do you compare the A346 to the 744? Compare it to the 773ER. Do a fair comparison, What you are doing is like triying to compare the 738 with a A321.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 33):
Yes some interest, my view is I dont see any new orders until the Trent 1000 technology is ported to the Trent 500, should give 10-15% lower fuel burn for the Trent 500 series bringing the TSFC below the 77W. This can either be translated to increased range, or increased payload, or same range/payload with less fuel. I would see this as being a customer upgrade to existing customers also, like in service engines were upgraded on the 744.

Further down the track expect to see A350 style AL-LI fuselage sections, being 5% - 10% lighter, and A350 style wing improvements.

The main advantange the 77W has over the 346 is the TSFC of the engines, the 77W does this by having a very high bypass engine. Both GE and RR have improved the TFSC of their engines for the 787/350 programs without increasing the bypass ratio to the level of the GE90-115B.

The 345/346 stand to gain more from the 787/350 engine programs than what the 77W will.

I dont think Airbus wants to spend more money on the A340, remember all of these modifications require certification, which costs money. I think Airbus will focus everything they have on the A350 and later on on a A320 replacement. It is not smart to spend another billion dollars modifiying an Airplane that has little or no sales prospects in the future.

Same goes for the 777. The 777-200ULR and the 777-300ER are the last that Boeing will develop for the 777 family. After that it will be 737 replacement and 747 replacement. an replacement for the 773 will come from the 747 replacement program most likely. But all of this is still some 10 years off at the earliest.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 10103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 34):
Why do you compare the A346 to the 744?

I didnt run the flight plans, wbp did, he didnt provide raw data for the 77W only for the 744 and 346.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 34):
remember all of these modifications require certification,

The updated Trent 500 will cost Airbus very little, RR is already doing the work for the Trent 1000.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:23 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Rizzibird (Reply 23):
It's funny to hear some of our American friends claiming the A346 to be an unefficient gas-guzzler. Just past week I've read a newspaper article in which LH names the A346 as its most fuel-efficient aircraft

Why do you Europeans have to resort to the usual "Americans Bashing Airbus".

Can't you accept the fact that although 777 is a couple of years newer than A340 it is proving vastly superior to A340, especially in C Market versions.

I remember the pro Airbus European faction crowing when A345/6 arrived, what gos around comes around  wink 

Quoting Glom (Reply 28):
From wbp's table:
A346 4.49 kg/100NM.pax
B77W 4.06 kg/100NM.pax

That 10% - 11% less fuel burn. That is a huge advantage. Imagine the fuel burnt in a year less 10%  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 32):
RR may eventually incorporate some Trent1000/1700 tech into the 500, in which case you may suddenly find the A345/6 fuel burn sufficiently improved to make it a viable 773ER competitor

What are you saying, The Trent 500 is already obselete, unable to compete with the latest GE90s. I think you will find that even CX will go with 77W (according to rumours) despite GE power because like most in the aviation industry you cannot help but be impressed with the ruthless efficiency power and reliabilty of the big GEs. Expect more pure RR customers to follow suite

Quoting Zeke (Reply 35):
The updated Trent 500 will cost Airbus very little, RR is already doing the work for the Trent 1000.

It has not happened yet, it not in the pipeline and you 'hope' this will be the fix. But its still 2 engines versus four and as you see Airbus is frantically trying to follow Boeings lead down the twin engine path.

The A350 may or may not be comparable to 787 but as of now Airbus has no answer to the 777 and as you can see from loyal 340 customers that cannot resist 777. What will happen to EKs A346 orders!!!
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 20):
With a 50+ 777 order coming up for EK at the DXB airshow,

Source please... The article out there says 26 orders and neither Boeing nor EK can confirm that so it's not even a done deal.

Quoting Rizzibird (Reply 23):
I've read a newspaper article in which LH names the A346 as its most fuel-efficient aircraft, burning just 3,3 liters of fuel per passenger per 100 kilometers.

Well, that's becoz they don't fly the 773ER otherwise that statement wouldn't be true  wink 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:46 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 37):
Quoting Dalecary (Reply 20):
With a 50+ 777 order coming up for EK at the DXB airshow,

Source please... The article out there says 26 orders and neither Boeing nor EK can confirm that so it's not even a done deal.

Seattle Times for 26 773ER and Gulf News for at least 20 772LR. Today's issues.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8029
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:03 pm

I think future orders for the A340-600--which will all be HGW versions from now on--will most likely be to airlines that already fly the A346: LH, VS, IB, and possibly SA.

I do agree that if Rolls-Royce develops a Trent 500 successor using technologies from the upcoming Trent 1000 engine for the 787/A350 they could cut the fuel consumption of the A346 quite a bit, which will make it more practical for airlines like SA to fly non-stop between the US East Coast and CPT/JNB.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 10103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:03 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 37):
Source please... The article out there says 26 orders and neither Boeing nor EK can confirm that so it's not even a done deal.

To back Dale up, EK pilots I have spoken to have indicated similar numbers to me are being talked about within the company. Had a thread on it last week here.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 36):
That 10% - 11% less fuel burn. That is a huge advantage. Imagine the fuel burnt in a year less 10%

A larger difference exists between the 767 and 330, you don’t see airlines dumping fleets of 757/767s to buy A330s. Airlines are very happy to hang onto their 757/767s for another 4-5 years for the 787, despite being old and fuel hungry.

The Trent 1000 is a reality, will be certified I should image within 18-30 months. RR do port technology from one family to another to spread the development cost about.

I do see them doing to the Trent 500 what the did to the RB211, providing a better core to improve the engine, its in their best interest to do so. CX is one airline that upgraded its 744 engines with a better Trent core.

Range is proportional to 2/TFSC, a 5-10% decrease in the TSFC gives significant change in range, or better payload, or less fuel burn for the same payload/range. RR and GE are claiming a 10-15% improvement in their TSFC for the 787/A350 programs, without it both aircraft will not meet design claims.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 36):
What are you saying, The Trent 500 is already obselete, unable to compete with the latest GE90s. I think you will find that even CX will go with 77W (according to rumours) despite GE power because like most in the aviation industry you cannot help but be impressed with the ruthless efficiency power and reliabilty of the big GEs. Expect more pure RR customers to follow suite

I think your getting yourself confused here, for the 340-300 with the CFM56-5C engines, the TSFC is 0.545 which is lower than then RB211-882 TSFC (0.557) on the 777, or the GE90-B4. The Trent 500 are comparable to RB211-882 or the GE90-B4, I don’t have the exact figures. With the GE90-115B, the TSFC has decreased yet again with the larger fan, it is better than the Trent 500, but far from being obsolete, saying so is saying any civil jet engine certified more than 12-24 months ago is obsolete.

With the release of the 748, don’t think the CX 77W order is in the bag, with 35x747s (including freighters), replacing them with the 77W would be a real decrease in capacity. Buying a 744 today is still cheaper than a 77W.

Some of the CX 777, in particular the 772's are getting on in age. If some of the 330s get replaced with 777's, I would image them to go over to Dragon and stay in house so to speak.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 36):
It has not happened yet, it not in the pipeline and you 'hope' this will be the fix. But its still 2 engines versus four and as you see Airbus is frantically trying to follow Boeings lead down the twin engine path.

Did something amazing just happen that I didn’t know about ? Are you talking about the A350 ? Its just an improved A330, improved engines and materials, just like the 748 is just a 747 improvement.

One could say that the 748 is following airbus lead with the 340/380, or a rational person would say its just another design iteration, just to be expected.

When the 787-10 is released, along with the 748, both of these Boeing products along with the newer Airbus ones will eat into 777 sales for the next few years.

In my view this year will be the peak for the 777, it will soon start fade out of popularity, they are a very expensive airframe to purchase, and in a few years will not be the cheapest to operate either.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 36):
The A350 may or may not be comparable to 787 but as of now Airbus has no answer to the 777 and as you can see from loyal 340 customers that cannot resist 777. What will happen to EKs A346 orders!!!

Not sure with EK, they may change them for 350s, or may keep them to keep the fleet expanding, replace older aircraft etc.

It will come to the stage soon when airlines will not have a choice in what they want, it will be limited by factory production rates, this will increase the hull value of the aircraft, changing the economics of everything yet again.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:36 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 2):
Earth to Lufthansa: Check your kerosene bill. It's overdue.

Yeah, LH will soon go bankrupt...  Yeah sure

Have you checked their financial results lately?

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 7):
So what's wrong with making even more profit? Anyone that operates an A340 rather than a B777 has made a poor decision.

Tell that to the A340 airlines which are highly profitable...but don't expect to find your armchair CEO position being turned into a real contract afterwards...  Wink

Probably you haven't followed LH's fleet decision processes but not long ago they chose to order more A346 over the B77W. And since they are a very well managed airline you can be sure they did their maths. Fuel burn is not the one and only aspect which is relevant.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 7):
All is forgiven. Come back to Seattle.

They will return as soon as they find a Boeing model useful for their operations.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 30):
Because it is has technology that's 10 years newer than the 340

Can you prove that?

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 30):
as rated by passengers in so many surveys

Which surveys? The ones Boeing presented?

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 30):
is truly a world airplane as no current model has such an international manufactured component as this aircraft.

And the point for that discussion is...?


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:40 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 24):
The A340NG has the advantage of lower purchase price, no ETOPS restrictions (for now)

The A340 will never have any ETOPS restrictions... It has four engines.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:47 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 20):
Geoffrey Thomas has reported from HKG on the "orders" forum that CX are believed to have chosen the 773ER over the 346HGW.

I can tell you that is not true at all. In fact, at this point, the RFP is still neck and neck between the two. The decision will come soon, however, most likely before year end internally.

I cannot name the source, however. Don't want to be fired.
 
beechnut
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting DIA (Reply 15):
All I did was ask a simple question...I didn't anticipate an A vs. B battle.

Any time anyone on this juvenile forum posts "is the B7X7-YYY obsolete" or is the "A3XX-YYY finished", it turns into an A vs B pi$$ing match. It's so predictable it's almost a joke.

Airlines buy aircraft tailored to their mission profile and commercial expectations.

Sometimes Airbus wins. Sometimes Boeing wins. Get over yourselves. Airline CEOs do not make decisions based on what they read on this forum!!! And those of you who THINK you know why an airline chose A or B, think again. The procurement process is a lot more complex than you think, and you don't even have 10% of the information used to base the decision.

Mike
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:55 pm

I reckon of the two CX will order the A346, when you take into account it uses RR's and doesn't need ETOPS restrictions.

People talk about the 777's amasing efficiency but forget to mention Airbus' efficiency at producing aircraft, that's why they can offer planes cheaper. This would work well with cheaper kerosine as the difference in fuel cost over the lifetime of the plane would not be greater than the diffierence in the initial price difference. Unfortunately for Airbus though, high oil prices has swung things towards the 777.

What cracks me up though is that people talk of the 777 as though they designed the plane and should take all the credit for it's acheivments, and that they could have done a better job if they had designed the A340.  crazy 
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 7):
So what's wrong with making even more profit? Anyone that operates an A340 rather than a B777 has made a poor decision.

You should be consultant for airlines. They really need you.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 7):
Earth to Lufthansa: All is forgiven. Come back to Seattle.

LOL.
You are pathetic , boy.
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:13 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 33):
The main advantange the 77W has over the 346 is the TSFC of the engines, the 77W does this by having a very high bypass engine. Both GE and RR have improved the TFSC of their engines for the 787/350 programs without increasing the bypass ratio to the level of the GE90-115B

No, the main advantage the 773ER has over the A346 is a lower OEW. This contributes to about 5.5% better fuel burn.

Engine TSFC is about 1.5% better for the GE90-115B compared to the Trent 500.

The 773ER airframe is about 1.5% better in L/D compared to the A346.

The result is about an 8.5% fuel burn per trip advantage for the 773ER.

It's not just the engines.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 42):
The A340 will never have any ETOPS restrictions... It has four engines

No, but it has LROPS restrictions, and twins and quads are both subject to the same rules under LROPS.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 10103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 47):
No, the main advantage the 773ER has over the A346 is a lower OEW. This contributes to about 5.5% better fuel burn.

Umm NO right back at you !

As I have given you examples before ..

320 higher OEW than 734, lower burn
744 higher OEW than 744D, lower burn
738 with winglets higher OEW than 738 without, lower burn
and correct me if I am wrong....773ER with a 20,000 lb higher OEW than 773, with the same if not lower burn ?

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 47):
Engine TSFC is about 1.5% better for the GE90-115B compared to the Trent 500.

My back of the envelope calculation says that alone should give around a 5% increase in range alone if CD & CL were the same.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 47):
The result is about an 8.5% fuel burn per trip advantage for the 773ER.

The only place the fuel is going is out the back of the engines, if the Trent 500 TSFC can be improved by 1/4 of what they are projecting for the Trent 1000, the 340 range will improve 10-15%.

Higher OEW is OKAY if it has associated aerodynamic advantages, like I understand Boeing did with wing tip extensions on the 744 and 773ER or blended wingtip on the 738. If the aerodynamics are about equal and cannot be improved, the only real improvement available is engine improvements.

To quote Boeing ..."The DC-8 Series 70 is a re-engined version of the popular Super 60 Series, substituting CFM56 engines for the latter's Pratt & Whitney engines. The result is an aircraft that retains the Super 60 operating weights, but with a longer range due to the newer, more fuel-efficient turbofans."

About 2600 CFM56 engines hanging off 707/720/DC8 airframes these days seems to support what myself and Boeing are saying, lower TSFC engine is a simple easy fix to extend an aircrafts life and to increase range.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
coa747
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

RE: Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:40 am

The A340-500 seems to be the more appropriate target for this discussion. With Air Canada being the first customer to announce a switch from the A340-500 to the 777-200LR. This to me is a significant order because the cost of replacing a relatively small fleet of almost brand new aircraft would seem to show that the 777-200LR at least is superior to its Airbus counterpart. If as has been speculated Emirates and Singapore join the ranks of the A340-500 defectors that would prove the point that the A340-500 doesn't match up well with the 777-200LR. If Cathay decides to purchase the 777-300ER as well as Qantas that would seem to validate somewhat the 777-300ER's prowess over the A340-600. But that market segment is more murkey as the advantage does not seem to be so clearly defined. But if you just look at current year to date orders the 777-300ER would definetly seem to have turned the tables on the A340-600 and taken a substantial lead. I believe that the four engine concept for all but the 747 and A380 size aircraft is a dieing breed. I believe Airbus knows this from watching the success of the 777 line and their own A330 line and will not waste much more money on the A340 line.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos