CALMSP
Topic Author
Posts: 2895
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:52 am

Not a big surprise but an agreement was not reached. A final bargaining session has been scheduled for Dec. 7 and 8 in the offices of the NMB in Washington, D.C. If no agreement is reached on those dates, the NMB has stated that it will consider releasing the parties from mediation into a 30-day cooling off period. At the end of that period, the company would be able to implement needed wage and benefit reductions, and the flight attendants would be able to strike
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:14 am

Let them strike. Their whining and crying over possible paycuts since last spring, while the rest of us took cuts, is a disgrace. What's worse, is many of them took out their frustration at someone DARING to ASK them for a paycut on fellow employees. I don't know how many times this past summer I heard f/a's bitch about paycuts they hadn't even taken, and how poor some of their attitudes were this summer over something they hadn't even gone through.

I think a good deal of our f/a's do a very good job; but I'm tired of their crying and bitching. They're not irreplacable, and they should take a cut like the rest of us, or go find a job where they're guaranteed not to every take pay cuts.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:15 am

Funny if you follow aviation history. I do believe now that everyone else in the business has taken a pay cut, the CO Flight Attendants are now the highest paid. After all the things they had to go through in the 80's and 90's I guess they deserve the money. But it is pretty sad to be the only employee group who does not give up something and that will usually create some tension.


Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-11-18 18:23:32]
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
nyskymasters
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:41 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
Let them strike. Their whining and crying over possible paycuts since last spring, while the rest of us took cuts, is a disgrace.

Have you taken the time to ask what it actually is that the flight attendants are resisting in the concessionary contract? Working with these men and women every day I have come to understand WHY they are resisting and it is not just to be a bunch of hard nosed bitching flight attendants. If the same things had been asked of the pilots then we would not have agreed to our agreement.

So before you go around calling people of bunch of names why don't you, apparently as a fellow employee, take a moment and ask them why they don't get onboard with the rest of the employees. You might be surprised what kind of management we are now dealing with.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think anyone has ever mentioned the S word.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 2):
After all the things they had to go through in the 80's and 90's I guess they deserve the money.

Whatever happened in 80s or 90s is irrelevant to how much they should be paid. The relevant part is that United is hiring new flight attendants to pay less than 20K a year and was flooded with applicants.
Stop pop up ads
 
CALMSP
Topic Author
Posts: 2895
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:40 am

as were we at CO.................
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:54 am

Hmmmm, so the cooling off period ends Jan 7th or 8th? Thank god... I am flying from HKG back to EWR then to BOS on the 5th. Whew.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 3):

They're not onboard because many think they're irreplacable, and can't see the reality of the industry today. They're acting like babies, whining all the time about paycuts they haven't taken.

One way or the another, they will, and I can hardly wait to hear how much they'll bawl over that. They should just stfu, do their job, and remember that someone is always willing to take their job if they don't want it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 4):
The relevant part is that United is hiring new flight attendants to pay less than 20K a year and was flooded with applicants.

The IAM should take a long hard look at the volume of applications that UAL received as well as the actions of NWA in lieu of their pending F/A strike. I bet CO has looked at this contingent too and has a back up to hire and keep the fleet running (wouldn't surprise me if they had a replacement pool already trained via a third party that no one knows about yet). Thing is that F/A do not require a certificate to work from the FAA so replacing them is easy.. Pay cut now or no job by Christmas. Tough call on their part for the strike vote but don't look for to much sympathy for your cause from the rest of the employees who have been living with wage and benefit cuts of their own for some time now.

[Edited 2005-11-19 00:26:04]
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:51 am

If replacing the F/As brings a higher level of service to the airline with more enthusiastic workers at a lower price, which the F/A hiring frenzy at UA seems to indicate, then it would be in the best interest of CO to be hardlined on this. If the new F/As would be unreliable, then it wouldn't.

As it stands now, most CO F/As are service oriented. But I am flying them at Thanksgiving and Christmas, and it will be interesting to see if the attitude changes. Depending on how they behave, I'll have one view or another by January on whether they deserve to keep their jobs.

Last thing I would want as a CO elite is for the F/As to have the cuts forced on them and have them take it out on their pax for the next years. Other airlines have had this happen, and elites start to bring their loyalty to the competition.

As the customer, I expect that the employees leave their attitude for their own time, or they should be replaced. The fact that unions help prevent such actions are one of the main reasons I'm not a fan of unions.

Lots of people don't like their jobs, or think they should be paid more, but it doesn't give anyone the right to treat a third party, especially the customer, poorly. People talk of loyalty, but that's a two way street. Nobody should be rewarded for being a loyal jerk.

So we'll see what happens.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
nyskymasters
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:41 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
They're not onboard because many think they're irreplacable, and can't see the reality of the industry today. They're acting like babies, whining all the time about paycuts they haven't taken.

I always thought you were more educated than you appear to be here. Once again, it appears you haven't found the reason as to why they are balking. I am not sure what you do for CO but everybody that has taken cuts has complained about it. This is natural. But I am happy to say that very few spout such nastiness.

Once again, before you stoop to such a low level as to call people names why don't you just get all available facts.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11855
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:15 am

Thought: If DL and CO have a strike at the same time...

Unlikely. But a thought.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
They're not irreplacable....or go find a job where they're guaranteed not to every take pay cuts

We all know (pilots, f/a's, rampers, CSR, management) that we aren't irreplaceable (you know, Google offers a free spell checker on their toolbar). No employer guarantees a "pay-cut" free environment.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
They should just stfu, do their job, and remember that someone is always willing to take their job if they don't want it.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice. Worry about yourself and let "mom" and "dad" take care of us.

No doubt there are thousands lining up to take the job, but after 6 months, 1 or 2 years on the job, how many are left? What is the turnover rate? Anyone able to answer that? The funny part is how "easy" the job seems, until you actually start to live it. As a matter of fact, why don't you come on-board the f/a bandwagon? It's got to be easier than what you are doing now. You probably could have a career as a f/a and do something on the side.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:28 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Thought: If DL and CO have a strike at the same time...

Unlikely. But a thought.

Are we talking about flight attendants? If so, then it isn't unlikely. It's impossible, seeing that DL flight attendants do not have a union.

AAndrew
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:46 am

The position of the Continental flight attendants puzzles me.

The vast majority of them started their careers "Post-Lorenzo" and have been treated very well throughout their career. They make really good money today.

The company needs these cuts. I'm surprised they are being so difficult. Of course, nobody likes paycuts. They need to do their share to help the company through these extremely challenging times.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 14):
The company needs these cuts. I'm surprised they are being so difficult. Of course, nobody likes paycuts. They need to do their share to help the company through these extremely challenging times.

My understanding is that it's not the company, it's f/a's own union that is the problem. The union wants to take control of the f/a's pension plan which is an extremely bad idea. But on the other hand, it's been 7 months and I haven't heard a whisper about the fa's trying to throw the union under the bus either. So imo both the union and the f/a's are to blame for the continuing situation. As such, when I'm in the lot, I exact my small amount of revenge. If the f/a can't lift his/her own bag on the bus, oh well, pack it lighter next time.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:35 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 15):
My understanding is that it's not the company, it's f/a's own union that is the problem. The union wants to take control of the f/a's pension plan which is an extremely bad idea

This is ALWAYS what the unions really want. ALWAYS. It's been that way since before Hoffa went missing.

Controlling a pension fund is very, very, very, very lucrative, and because the Union bosses are money grubbing crooks, it is all they care about. If union members realized this, they would either dump the union or take it back with new leadership to actually represent them.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 10):
always thought you were more educated than you appear to be here.

Oh, please, give me a break. I'm tired of their whining, like they're the most put-upon group in the world of aviation. Have them talk to their compadres at other carriers, who have had cut after cut after cut-and they have the nerve to cry before they even get a cut. Spare me the lecture.

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 10):
I am not sure what you do for CO but everybody that has taken cuts has complained about it.

Gee, no kidding. No one likes it, but many f/a's obviously feel they're better than everyone else, and shouldn't have to do their fair share during tough times. It's really pathetic.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 12):
As a matter of fact, why don't you come on-board the f/a bandwagon?

Why don't you keep such nonsense to yourself? I don't want to be a part of a union; I don't want to hang out with a bunch of whiners, who feel they're better than everyone else at the company; I don't want to associate with people who let their bitterness affect their job.

I worked gates this summer, and I was appalled at the constant complaining so many of them have-and they had no shame, complaning about what they hadn't taken-a paycut-and knowing full well we had.

Join that bandwagon? Sorry, not in this lifetime.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18253
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 13):
DL flight attendants do not have a union.

Do workers need a union to go on strike? Can;t they just - go on strike?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
If union members realized this, they would either dump the union or take it back with new leadership to actually represent them.

I am extremely happy with the pension I get from the WGAW. Most writers are.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:06 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Why don't you keep such nonsense to yourself? I don't want to be a part of a union; I don't want to hang out with a bunch of whiners, who feel they're better than everyone else at the company; I don't want to associate with people who let their bitterness affect their job.

I see, your just going to share your bitterness and whining here on the board. If you think we are currently letting this affect our job, you've not seen anything yet. You obviously weren't here in the Lorenzo days.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:46 pm

Let them strike. Their whining and crying over possible paycuts since last spring, while the rest of us took cuts, is a disgrace.
*****

The part that really sucks in all this is that IAH Fa's voted yes on the original deal, CLE only missed by 4 votes, but EWR killed it with a completely one-sided NO vote.

I have yet to ever hear any of the FA's talk of striking, and I do not know any that are against having a paycut either, I just hear that they are wanting to structure it a little differently.

The biggest issue is that the deal affects the junior FA's a lot worse than the senior ones if the original deal passes, and if they structure in such a way that it is good for the juniors, then it becomes bad for the seniors. This is why EWR voted so heavily against the original deal.

I can't help but feel that some out there that are not FA's want them to strike, hence putting that wording in the press releases, but to this day, I have not once heard any FA say anything, or even hint at striking.

J
 
MX757
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:27 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 19):
If you think we are currently letting this affect our job, you've not seen anything yet. You obviously weren't here in the Lorenzo days.

I hope you don't mean taking your frustrations out on our customers.

We as mechanics group complain all the time about taking the pay cut. But we still took it and I hope it works out in the long run. What Falcon seems to be missing is that the F/A's and all the work groups at CO enjoy "bitching" about the company when they get together. Big grin

I hope this situation gets resolved soon and that our F/A's don't lose to much money.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
turnit56N
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:13 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:53 pm

I'm going to stand far away from this debate, except for one point. As someone that appreciates the value of a good FA, I have to say that they're really not so easily replaced. Some of the insulting comparisons on this board to waitressing, etc. are simply not true. For this good reason:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 12):
No doubt there are thousands lining up to take the job, but after 6 months, 1 or 2 years on the job, how many are left? What is the turnover rate?

It is very easy to find thousands who would like to be a FA, as the applications to UA and CO demonstrate. The problem is that many of these are people who think the job sounds fun and will let them travel. They don't fully grasp that the job completely changes their lifestyle. As much as the recruiters try to shock them into realizing what the lifestyle is like, the turnover rate remains very high. There may be a lot of people out there capable of performing the actions of a FA, but there aren't that many people out there willing to live the lifestyle of one. The realities of commuting, living on the road, paying for a crashpad, being tired most of the time, 5:30 am shows, putting up with passengers yelling over delays after a 12 hour day, working weekends and holidays, and not having much control over your schedule turn a lot of people off. That's why CO has been hiring for so long now. A recruiter told me that they needed to go through 300 applications to find one candidate to hire, and that nearly half the time that person would be gone in three months.

So no, it's not going to be easy for an airline to just go out and find thousands of dedicated people to replace their FAs.
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:21 pm

So many of you just type "STUPID" all the time and have no idea what you are saying. Just for the record. Do you really think that all the resumes United has received for the job are qualified candidates? Remember, all airline personnel must complete a 10 year F.B.I. background check for starters. You'd be surprised how the number will drop just from that. And even though so many of you think F/A's are just unskilled workers, how many would flunk out of training? Sure, the United numbers are high and a lot of people want the job. But, do they qualify at the end of the day?

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:24 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Do workers need a union to go on strike? Can;t they just - go on strike?

With all due respect. I usually always give your posts credit. However, under U.S. Law you must have a union to strike. (Brain fart, perhaps?)

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 12):
No doubt there are thousands lining up to take the job, but after 6 months, 1 or 2 years on the job, how many are left? What is the turnover rate? Anyone able to answer that?

I bet not even you can answer that but here is another thing to think about while your stapling your cardboard CHAOS sign to the picket. The only requirements for F/A training, designated by the FAA, is the safety portion. The rest of the training is devoted to service standards and CO policies so, that being said, your group might keep in mind that it only takes three to five days max to comply with the full array of FAA safety training requirements. This means any new hires could be ready to come online very quickly, sure there might be some service hits in the short term but long term the airline could backfill all the striking positions in a very quickly and the service gap will be bridged in no time.The IAM should take a long hard look at the NWA example, Mechanics are certified yet the company was able to find a large enough pool to fill the positions. Now before you start yelling SCAB think about the 80,000 people that wanted the 2000 open positions at UAL... in this day and age I am willing to bet that people really don't care about a silly title that will soon be forgotten.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 12):
The funny part is how "easy" the job seems, until you actually start to live it

Spare everyone your miserable attempts to martyr yourself and Flight Attendants as a whole with the same boring mantra about how difficult your lives are! Here is an update for you, all jobs are like that from a nice office white collar corporate job to the guy who drops the fries at burger king. To imply F/A work is more difficult than others who took the pay cut is insulting and I say go toss bags in BOS during the winter or come down to IAH and start dumping LAV's in the middle of July and then sing that same song. International first class service aside (and the comparison is meager at best) I have friends that work in fine dinning restaurants as waiters that do a lot more work under very stressful and demanding conditions. There is no sitting down when your not busy no calling in sick and your attitude, service standards and food sales better be on the ball or the General Manager will show you the door without a second thought and why? They have a stack or resumes of qualified people ready to step up at a moments notice. Again, something to think about...

[Edited 2005-11-19 15:07:55]
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
PAS810
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:31 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:03 pm

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 3):
Have you taken the time to ask what it actually is that the flight attendants are resisting in the concessionary contract?

Not knowing, could you elaborate since you seem to be in the know?
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 19):
I see, your just going to share your bitterness and whining here on the board. If you think we are currently letting this affect our job, you've not seen anything yet. You obviously weren't here in the Lorenzo days.

This is an aviation board, is it not? So I'll share my point of view as a front-line employee. And yes, I think many are letting it affect their job. I worked gates until recently, and many-especially if we had a EWR-based crew-it did affect their jobs and their attitudes this summer.

And as far as the Lorenzo quote goes, maybe you should find out a little about me before opening your yap. I've been with CO almost 19 years now, and I certainly remember the Lorenzo days, when employees were the first to be asked for givebacks, not the last, as has happened this time. So on that point, I think you need a bit of a retraction. If you're comparing these times to the Lorenzo times, you've got a big problem.

Quoting MX757 (Reply 21):
What Falcon seems to be missing is that the F/A's and all the work groups at CO enjoy "bitching" about the company when they get together

Of course they do. But it went beyond that. It was really bad, when, at lest 2 to 2 times a day, you'd hear f/a's complaining about paycuts they hadn't taken.

I had one f/a on a flight tell me "well, whe management decides to work for free, then I'll take a paycut". I told her that attitude sucked, and I got the dirtiest look. She wasn't kidding-she was dead serious. It's that kind of attitude I put up with from more than a few f/a's this summer. I found the attitude really unprofessional.

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 25):
Spare everyone your miserable attempts to martyr yourself and Flight Attendants as a whole with the same boring mantra about how difficult your lives are!

Amen. It's like soemone put a gun to their head to take the job in the first place. Puhleez.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
incitatus
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 23):
Remember, all airline personnel must complete a 10 year F.B.I. background check for starters. You'd be surprised how the number will drop just from that. And even though so many of you think F/A's are just unskilled workers, how many would flunk out of training? Sure, the United numbers are high and a lot of people want the job. But, do they qualify at the end of the day?

The arguments make sense, but if United was concerned there wes not enough applicants, they would've kept it open. But they stopped and they are in the business of running an airline. They should know how many applications are sufficient.

I have nothing against flight attendants and I have a very high regard for CO as a company. But if I make X and another company is hiring for the same job at X/2 or X/4, I better sound flexible.
Stop pop up ads
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 23):
But, do they qualify at the end of the day?

Considering some of the F/A's I've seen on many different airlines, if they are breathing, yes they do. That's obviously overstating it but seriously, considering those same F/A's I've seen on many airlines, the training can't be that difficult. I actually had one not too long ago that was so wide she had to turn semi-sideways to make it down the RJ aisle. I wondered if the pilots could feel the weight shift in the controls when she moved back and forth. She actually had to use a seat belt extension! Then there was the gum chewer and snapper, what an excruciating 2 hours that was. I know it's just two and extreme examples but seriously, considering some of the people you see as F/A's, how hard could the training really be? We're certainly not talking astrophysics are we.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):

This is ALWAYS what the unions really want. ALWAYS. It's been that way since before Hoffa went missing.

Controlling a pension fund is very, very, very, very lucrative, and because the Union bosses are money grubbing crooks, it is all they care about.

That's as opposed to having an airline go to a bankruptcy judge and have their pension plan terminated?

I'd rather allow the union to run it than today's breed of airline managers.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
I am extremely happy with the pension I get from the WGAW. Most writers are.

the entertainment unions work in a closed shop environment, but even then, their recalcitrant nature has led to the production fleeing the US to other countries. if you can get in the unions and get a job in the us, that's great. but it's getting harder and harder. writing staffs are being cut down in television while producing the same number of shows due to union costs.

and of course when the wga and sag/aftra strike in 2 years like they are already preparing to do, it'll lead to more production going elsewhere and not coming back. all my out of work entertainment production friends here in LA can thank the unions for that...

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 23):
So many of you just type "STUPID" all the time and have no idea what you are saying. Just for the record. Do you really think that all the resumes United has received for the job are qualified candidates? Remember, all airline personnel must complete a 10 year F.B.I. background check for starters. You'd be surprised how the number will drop just from that. And even though so many of you think F/A's are just unskilled workers, how many would flunk out of training? Sure, the United numbers are high and a lot of people want the job. But, do they qualify at the end of the day?

Give me a break. There's no PHD involved here. Your training is no longer than the training for many, many other professions.

Oh, and companies who give a damn run background checks on their potential hires as well, even when not mandated. So you should really be clean no matter where you want to work.

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 25):
The rest of the training is devoted to service standards and CO policies so, that being said, your group might keep in mind that it only takes three to five days max to comply with the full array of FAA safety training requirements.

Sounds a heck of a lot like being a lifeguard. Combining the lifeguard, first aid and CPR requirements together, you might be able to finish it in 5 days of training. Maybe. Probably more like 10 days. And of course it takes an ability to swim that can't be learned in 10 days, but takes a few years to be good enough at for a lifeguard.

Then you would be on staff at a facility and have to learn the ropes there, for safety, service, etc. and after a probationary/trainee period you'd have more flexibility in hours, be allowed to "open or close" the facility, etc.

If you are an open water guard, you are required to go through continue testing and training due to the added hazards.

And lifeguards don't make F/A money, even after your paycuts. So please get off your high horse about how you are irreplaceable. You may do your job well, but that doesn't mean that if you start doing it badly, you are worth anything.

You are worth something to CO BECAUSE you do your job well, not because you've been there for 10 years. Stop doing it well, and say goodbye to your job. Period.

I respect people who do their jobs well. I don't have respect for people who bitch all day about their jobs.

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 25):
There is no sitting down when your not busy no calling in sick and your attitude, service standards and food sales better be on the ball or the General Manager will show you the door without a second thought and why?

well, unions are designed to protect you from such abuse, and I don't think that's so bad. but it shouldn't protect you from doing the hard work without bitching. union employees often don't know the difference between being treated fairly and being abused, because they have never been abused as an employee.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 30):
I'd rather allow the union to run it than today's breed of airline managers.

uh, no you wouldn't. not all unions run their pensions like the entertainment unions do. many have been found to be "raided" over the years, with the union bosses in jail, and the government doesn't step in in that case.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
COFreqFlyer
Posts: 358
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:44 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:03 am

Falcon84, Ikramerica, welcome to my RR list.
The Proud Bird with the Golden Tail
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 29):
Considering some of the F/A's I've seen on many different airlines, if they are breathing, yes they do. That's obviously overstating it but seriously, considering those same F/A's I've seen on many airlines, the training can't be that difficult. I actually had one not too long ago that was so wide she had to turn semi-sideways to make it down the RJ aisle. I wondered if the pilots could feel the weight shift in the controls when she moved back and forth. She actually had to use a seat belt extension! Then there was the gum chewer and snapper, what an excruciating 2 hours that was. I know it's just two and extreme examples but seriously, considering some of the people you see as F/A's, how hard could the training really be? We're certainly not talking astrophysics are we.

You wonder why the quality is not there with the pay you say Flight Attendants are worth ? DUH !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
Give me a break. There's no PHD involved here. Your training is no longer than the training for many, many other professions.

Oh, and companies who give a damn run background checks on their potential hires as well, even when not mandated. So you should really be clean no matter where you want to work.

Who said anything about a P.H.D.? Do you have one? You seem to be an expert on EVERYTHING ! I am just stating simple facts. Contact any H.R. Department at ANY airline ANY where in the world. Lets see how many resumes United has to go through before they fill those 2000 positions. So give me a break !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18253
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
writing staffs are being cut down in television while producing the same number of shows due to union costs.

The cut backs in writing staff are largely due to the advent of reality shows.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
all my out of work entertainment production friends here in LA can thank the unions for that...

Most of my producer friends, who used to do a lot of drama, now can't get a leg in the door - but it has nothing to do with unions. It is those ol' reality shows.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 28):
The arguments make sense, but if United was concerned there wes not enough applicants, they would've kept it open. But they stopped and they are in the business of running an airline. They should know how many applications are sufficient.

Not if they don't have enough staff to go through all of them at once.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
letsgetwet
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 25):
The only requirements for F/A training, designated by the FAA, is the safety portion.

True , but that is 3-5 days for every type of plane they fly.
So, if you hurry up and train a bunch of people on just one type, you had better hire three to four times as many replacements as you have now.
Being and F/A does not require a degree, but as was said before, not many people would last on a job where you never know for sure what days you will have off, and if you think you are off ,you get a call to get to the airport in two hours and you won't be home for three days. When you get back and you are eager to get to the parking lot to go home and you call scheduling to tell them you are back and they tell you to turn around because the want you to do another turn. Believe me all these things happen if you are a reserve F/A. And when you think you can't take it anymore somebody says " Hang in there a little longer because when you get a Line it will be much better" Well five years go by and you STILL don't have a line. Believe me, living like that for $30,000/year is NOT easy.
I'm not an F/A and never was, but my daughter is and I don't know how she put up with that crap for 5 years. I saw it first hand and there is nothing glamorous about it, and the pay is not much better than Burger King the first 5 years. I know you will say well "Just quit" But it's not easy investing 5 years into a career, hoping to get to the point where you actually get a schedule where you can somewhat live a normal life where you can make plans with your personal life, and not worry about getting that phone call.
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:46 am

To the above poster.

THANK YOU. You give me hope for intelligence on Anet.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 20):
I have yet to ever hear any of the FA's talk of striking, and I do not know any that are against having a paycut either, I just hear that they are wanting to structure it a little differently.

Bingo!

Quoting MX757 (Reply 21):
We as mechanics group complain all the time about taking the pay cut. But we still took it and I hope it works out in the long run. What Falcon seems to be missing is that the F/A's and all the work groups at CO enjoy "bitching" about the company when they get together.

We have another "Bingo"!
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
I don't have respect for people who bitch all day about their jobs.

Most people do their jobs "well" and still bitch about it! Stop spouting your Pollyanna dribble.
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:37 am

Who is complaining? This is an open forum. Not the airplane. We can say what we like. No one is on company time. And you sure aren't the customer at the moment. An equal. Oh My God !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
HunUtazo
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:17 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:18 am

...if the flight attendants pass on the next/last negoiation in december


...the company absolutely will impose a new, much less desirable contract, one that all will have to learn to live with or


...continental will replace them at every opportunity


...ghost riders will be the rule, most other employee groups will be vigilant with an eye on their work ethic.
dude
 
letsgetwet
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 42):
...ghost riders will be the rule, most other employee groups will be vigilant with an eye on their work ethic.

Nothing new,this has been done for years.
 
HunUtazo
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:17 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:19 am

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 43):
Nothing new,this has been done for years.

Nothing new, you're restating the obvious...
dude
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 33):
You wonder why the quality is not there with the pay you say Flight Attendants are worth ? DUH !

Maybe the pay is what they are worth, ever stop to look at it that way? Or look at it this way. Do shop at the same grocery store even when you know that you can get the same item cheaper at a different market that is not any farther out of your way? Do you stop at the same gas station all the time even if the station across the street or down the block is selling for 5 cents a gallon cheaper? Why should any company act any differently? Aren't their executives charged by the board and the shareholders to get the most bang for the company buck? Where does any company owe you anything more in loyalty than you show the grocer or gas station owner? Oh, wait a minute, I forgot we're talking about you! You are much more important than the slop who tosses bags on the belt or the finnicky gate agent that really expects you to show your ID before being allowed aboard. When are you going to realize that like it or not your services are a commodity? I'm sure the company cares in some way for your well being, they want good hard working employees but when push comes to shove, they are in business to make money for their shareholders, not you. Any business that does otherwise does so at their peril as has been proven time and again.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 45):
Oh, wait a minute, I forgot we're talking about you! You are much more important than the slop who tosses bags on the belt or the finnicky gate agent that really expects you to show your ID before being allowed aboard. When are you going to realize that like it or not your services are a commodity? I'm sure the company cares in some way for your well being, they want good hard working employees but when push comes to shove, they are in business to make money for their shareholders, not you. Any business that does otherwise does so at their peril as has been proven time and again.

Show me some text where I said it was about me ? Unlike you, I don't try to rule the world from my highchair! If you want to talk about me. Well, let's just say this. Of the last 6 years that my company has had a top 25 Service Champion Award (Out of 3400 in my home base) I have won 3 times. It is the customers who pick me too. So nice try. I do my job. Do it well, have taken a pay cut. NOT complaining and still have the passion to fly, serve, respect, and take care of anything else that may come up. My only gripe is ignorant people.

I have worked for 3 airlines in 19 years. Two no longer exsist. I have no issue with investing in the future of my airline to secure that future via a paycut and more work. But you have to pay new hires a wage they can live on. I am well prepared. I started downsizing in 2002. I have taken a 21% cut and can go down to 30% before I'll jump ship and do something else. I still enjoy what I do. Thank God the "real" people on the airplane are not like the nagging people on here.

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-11-20 03:18:15]
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
MX757
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:45 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Of course they do. But it went beyond that. It was really bad, when, at lest 2 to 2 times a day, you'd hear f/a's complaining about paycuts they hadn't taken.

The bottom line is that they are going to take a paycut. They can bitch about it all they want. I prefer they bitch in front of you instead of our customers. It sucks for you guys working the gates to hear it all the time while you are doing a job that is under appreciated. The only thing I could suggest to you is do what I do when I here mechs complaining is walk away and ignore it.

I use to believe that airline brand loyalty was a thing of the past. But CO is starting to get a loyal customer base, something I hate to lose in this day and age.

Have a nice day!  Smile
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
turnit56N
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:13 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:42 pm

I had an interesting conversation with a group of CO EWR FAs the other night on a layover. Interestingly enough, they all said they were willing to take paycuts, just not to the extent that the company was asking initially. According to them, the cuts would add up to nearly $8,000 a year for junior FAs. They were upset that they've only been given the one contract (the company's inital offer) to vote on. Most of them said that while the company's initial offering was extreme, they'd be willing to accept a more moderate paycut if it were offered.

I also thought it was interesting that WITH the cuts, a first year CO FA would make about the same as a first year COEX FO.......
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO FA Paycuts.....

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Turnit56N (Reply 48):
According to them, the cuts would add up to nearly $8,000 a year for junior FAs.

I think that's a line of crap they fed you. Junior f/a's don't make a whole lot of money to beging with and saying it would have been 8 grand is nonsense. I'm a senior agent of 18 years, and my paycut was about 4 grand. There's no way a junior f/a was taking a 20% paycut.
Work Right, Fly Hard

Who is online