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Aloha717200
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QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:23 am

http://www.alaskasworld.com/newsroom...s/QXstories/QX_20051118_134416.asp

Sad to see this service ending, I never thought I'd see QX leave.  Sad

However, I find it interesting that this occurs just shortly after Allegiant started service to IDA with their twice-weekly flight to LAS.

I wonder if the switch from QX to Big Sky, and smaller planes, will actually draw more pax for Allegiant at Idaho Falls and boost their business there?

I'm not sure if any members here are anywhere near the eastern idaho area, or are even familiar with the market. But it seems to me that PIH is a dying airport, where IDA is a growing airport. Will this service ending become a boost to Idaho Falls business enough that Allegiant might have a more realistic chance of keeping IDA-LAS service profitable?
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:37 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
However, I find it interesting that this occurs just shortly after Allegiant started service to IDA with their twice-weekly flight to LAS.

I really doubt QX was reliant on the PIH-LAS traffic and they now fear it will now spill into the IDA market thanks to Allegiant.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
I'm not sure if any members here are anywhere near the eastern idaho area, or are even familiar with the market. But it seems to me that PIH is a dying airport, where IDA is a growing airport. Will this service ending become a boost to Idaho Falls business enough that Allegiant might have a more realistic chance of keeping IDA-LAS service profitable?

PIH still has service on Skywest/Delta Connection to SLC several times a day. Should the market warrant it DL will upgrade flights to CRJ's.
IDA has always been the larger airport. Within the last 10 years they had mainline service on DL to SLC.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:17 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 1):
I really doubt QX was reliant on the PIH-LAS traffic and they now fear it will now spill into the IDA market thanks to Allegiant.

Actually I'm speaking of connecting pax that went through BOI to destinations beyond.

I know that that vast majority of the flying public in PIH drive south to SLC for any mainline flights. But with mainline now being a option from IDA on Allegiant, and with Allegiant having quite a few connecting options from LAS, I think people may begin to opt for the much shorter drive north to IDA. And with the pullout of QX, perhaps that effect will be magnified by drawing even more people to IDA for their traveling.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 1):
PIH still has service on Skywest/Delta Connection to SLC several times a day. Should the market warrant it DL will upgrade flights to CRJ's.

I wish, but that will likely never happen. Especially not at the fare that DL/OO charge PIH-SLC, I've seen it as $250 before. People would rather drive. The question though is, if people can fly Allegiant to LAS and then connect around the country from there, (and Allegiant offers a $79 one way to LAS versus the 250 to SLC on OO) versus the old way of flying to BOI for connection options (at higher fares on QX), will this be the push Allegiant needs to really continue being in the IDA market for the long term?

Thus far they've had pretty healthy loads, but ive been afraid that the traffic volume would drop off over time, thus losing this region's only mainline traffic. With QX only at IDA now, I think Allegiant stands to benefit, and IDA is well positioned for more growth.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:13 pm

Maybe Big Sky will jump at the opportunity to fill QX's void at PIH and run its own PIH-BOI service with much smaller B-1900's.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:19 pm

Um, GQ is. 3 nonstops to BOI a day. Rumor has it GQ is really making gains in BOI...while the hub in BIL may be losing some flights...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
wedgetail737
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:54 pm

Silly me. I guess it pays to read the article thoroughly before opening my trap. My bad.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:06 pm

Still, it is my hope that Allegiant can sustain its IDA service for a long time to come. I've heard they have a habit of entering markets but not making them sustainable for too long before pulling out, correct me if I heard incorrectly.

I've been hoping and praying for real mainline service to return to East Idaho ever since DL pulled mainline out of IDA last time. Allegiant is my hero at the moment!  Wink And I want to see their service last.

Althought I hate to see QX pull out of PIH, I have to wonder if perhaps this is actually better for the region as a whole by consolidating things at IDA.

The more we can focus on one main airport for the region, the stronger that airport will be. Years ago they discussed building a regional airport for eastern idaho, just to the west of Blackfoot, and planned on tearing down IDA and PIH, but the plan fell through. Seems instead IDA may become the region's main airport.

Allegiant comes into this because if they can sustain IDA perhaps other mainline carriers will take a serious look at starting business to IDA.
 
iowaman
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:28 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 6):
Still, it is my hope that Allegiant can sustain its IDA service for a long time to come. I've heard they have a habit of entering markets but not making them sustainable for too long before pulling out, correct me if I heard incorrectly.

G4 usually does there research before entering a market.. they have only pulled out of a few cities (DEN, MSN, RDD, and they pulled BTR before it even started).
 
ASFlyer
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:18 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 2):
and with Allegiant having quite a few connecting options from LAS

Allegiant doesn't offer any connecting fares and connecting service is hit or miss at best. They service many of their cities only serveral days a week or less from LAS and usually with only one flight on that particular day. Connecting traffic is not what they are looking for. Allegiant is relying on the LAS tourist traffic and, to a much smaller degree, some traffic FROM LAS to their other destinations.
 
suv
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:21 pm

I really would not call Allegiant "mainline". They simpy fly point to point. To LAS and from LAS. To SFB and from SFB. They don't do connecting flights. None of their aircraft RON, all crews do day-trips.

Suv
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:28 pm

Why did they pull out of AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN? That would seem like a sustainable market, unless F9 or UA drove them out?

I was reviewing the Idaho DOT passenger demand study over the last 10 years for eastern idaho and it looks like DL wasnt the only one to offer mainline service. AA also offered IDA-DFW during one year but discontinued it.

I really believe that IDA is right on the verge of being an airport capable of sustaining long-term mainline service, but what it needs is to attract more pax from within its own service base in order to accomplish that. SLC, and to a smaller degree, PIH, are drawing needed passengers away from IDA. If only people would fly out of IDA instead of driving almost 200 miles to SLC, there would be much greater potential for success out of this region.

I think the only way to lessen the bleeding is to consolidate operations at one airport that serves this entire area, not two. If PAX that fly out of PIH to BOI or SLC for their connecting options can no longer do so, they have to go to IDA, and that slight, but important, increase in pax numbers might be enough to establish IDA as a place people here drive towards, rather than away from, for a selection of travel options.

People go to SLC for two reasons: Cheaper fares, and greater selection of flight options. IDA now offers service to SLC, BOI, MSP and LAS, not counting second tier destinations. So the choice is there and it is growing, and fares will come down as competition increases, AND, when carriers do not have to lose money by serving two cities in the area with half-full planes, rather than serving the entire region as a whole from ONE facility, and therefore, filling planes and establishing a profit on otherwise unprofitable routes.

I want to see an airport in this region establish itself as a permanent mainline destination. Perhaps this pullout of QX is a step in that direction. At least I hope so.

Allegiant is apparently making bank on this route IDA-LAS, full planes is what I'm hearing. If that lasts, maybe the tide will turn, instead of us seeing a pullout after only one year like we've seen a few times in the past.

Take a look at this pdf, it's fascinating: http://www.itd.idaho.gov/aero/Passen...chnical%20Report%20Chapter%201.pdf
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:32 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 8):
Allegiant doesn't offer any connecting fares and connecting service is hit or miss at best. They service many of their cities only serveral days a week or less from LAS and usually with only one flight on that particular day. Connecting traffic is not what they are looking for. Allegiant is relying on the LAS tourist traffic and, to a much smaller degree, some traffic FROM LAS to their other destinations.

So they are an O&D carrier then, basically. I didn't know that about them. Still, I see potential from this, if they can fill an MD-80 twice a week out of IDA, that's got to boost the airport in some way and make it more attractive to other carriers, wouldn't you think?
 
iowaman
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:55 pm

Quoting Suv (Reply 9):
I really would not call Allegiant "mainline". They simpy fly point to point. To LAS and from LAS. To SFB and from SFB. They don't do connecting flights. None of their aircraft RON, all crews do day-trips.

If they aren't mainline what are they? I would consider MD-80's mainline and 3+ hour flights mainline. You are correct none of there aircraft RON, however there are two red eyes (LAN and TOL when it starts 12/15).

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 10):
Why did they pull out of AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN? That would seem like a sustainable market, unless F9 or UA drove them out?

I think your last few words answered your question.  Wink F9 and UA obviously have the name in DEN, let alone connecting traffic and more frequencies.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:25 pm

I see regarding DeN.

OK, done some more reading, here's another PDF full of info for anyone that is interested: http://www.itd.idaho.gov/aero/Passen...chnical%20Report%20Chapter%203.pdf

If you don't want to read through it basically it proves that the reason IDA and PIH have been unable to truly sustain healthy levels of commercial airline traffic is because both airports overlap each other's market to such a degree that fares and pax end up being split between the two facilities and stunting growth at each. Another harm has been that both airports have offered similar fares and levels of service (though IDA has always been in the lead).

A service reduction at PIH would significantly shrink the amount of market overlap, thus increasing IDA's market and passenger base, thus making IDA which is already idaho's 2nd busiest airport, strong enough to sustain more mainline flights.

It's all right there in that document, an exponential growth increase potential should the overlape between PIH and IDA suddenly shrink or go away.

And again, the end of QX service into PIH DOES shrink the overlap.

I love PIH and have always wanted to see it be the winning airport in the competition between itself and IDA, but PIH has lost that battle. In the bigger picture, the only way to get more business from airlines into eastern idaho is to consolidate.

So, how this all relates to the question at the beginning of the thread, about how it would benefit allegiant?

I believe that the reduction of service at PIH will lead to a market growth and pax base growth at IDA caused by a diminish in service overlap between the region's two major airfields, causting IDA to become an airport not just barely sustainable, but permanently sustainable as a mainline destination.

Look in the PDF i just provided, it seems to support that theory.

What do you guys think?

Hypothetical: If OO were to discontinue service from PIH-SLC (i dont believe they will, however), thus forcing all of pocatello's market base to travel either to IDA or SLC for their travel, I bet IDA could support 733 flights to SLC again, and perhaps that AA flight to DFW, were it to return, would succeed as well.

That's my theory.
 
geg2rap
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:38 am

anyone know how msp-ida is doing?
 
iowaman
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting Geg2rap (Reply 14):
anyone know how msp-ida is doing?

I've been watching the loads, loads do look pretty good. Don't know about yields though.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 10):
Why did they pull out of AND CURRENT: Denver - International

The flight was only started to take advantage of an aircraft that Allegiant was basing at DEN to operate charters for, I believe, Apple Vacations. Since the plane had time it was just sitting they decided to try a scheduled LAS run. Unfortunately it was too much competition.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
atcrick
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Suv (Reply 9):
None of their aircraft RON, all crews do day-trips.

Not quite correct. Allegiant aircraft and crews RON in PIA 6 nights a week.
natch!!
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:24 am

I flew on Allegiant IDA-LAS on Mon 11/14, early in their service just in case they quit it soon.
Anyway, I counted about 120 pax off and the flight out was booked at 72.

As for any connex in LAS, probably not to any G4 cities as the flight arrives near 7 PM. But if one was so inclined, connect to an America West redeye flight, though I doubt many would.

It was interesting to use a jetway for a DHC-8-200! Everyone could have been inside using Gate 3 by the time the jetway was in place.

I see OO charges over $350 for an IDA-SLC flight, so I bet not much O&D for just SLC.

And AA flew IDA-ORD and IDA-SLC-DFW when they were there.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: QX To End PIH, Allegiant Air To Benefit?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:58 pm

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 18):
I see OO charges over $350 for an IDA-SLC flight, so I bet not much O&D for just SLC.

Two reasons:

1. They have a monopoly, and 2. Competition from PIH (also on OO).

Again if everything consolidated at IDA for this region youd probably see lower fares. Until prices come down people will still drive to SLC for the majority of their travel.

I'd absolutely love to see more Allegiant-type fares out of IDA. 79 dollars to LAS is incredibly reasonable. If NW charged a fare like that to MSP, or OO to SLC, they'd probably attract a ton more business than they do. At those fares even competition from PIH wouldnt be that much of an issue.

But at those high fares any PIH flying is going to stunt some growth at IDA.

I'm glad Allegiant is doing so well on this run though. And i checked some of the flights booked on NW to MSN for the upcoming month and loads do indeed look very good. But 325 dollars for a flight just to SLC is asinine, the only time that flying from IDA-SLC becomes more feasable than driving is for a connection in SLC to destinations beyond, but O&D to SLC at that fare wont attract many new pax in this area. I would even rather drive than pay over 300 dollars to fly only 200 miles.

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