CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:00 pm

Hi!

Just reading now the weekly portuguese newspaper EXPRESSO and the news is ( I'm trying to make the best translation possible from portuguese... Sad

- In 2005, the passengers for european routes of TAP increased 8,2%, highlights are Amsterdam, Italy, Scandinavia and Germany ( taking advantage of beeing member of Star Alliance. TAP wants to widen their european flight network for 2006, generators of income ( touristic traffic ). In Brazil, the increase is 11,3% and the average occupation of Rio and S. Paulo flights is 90%!!!

I personally think these two markets are giving TAP a great income ( Europe and Brazil ), if we take on that the regular figures of Africa, USA and domestic TAP is just ending another wonderfull year!!! Comments will be greatly welcome!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:35 pm

TAP order for A350 and A330 due on Monday 21st, I believe.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:57 pm

This is great news! Is TP actually making money as well?

If so, I have trouble understanding why European/Rest of the World airlines can make money consistantly and yet US carriers are nothing but losers...

Any insight into this? I am very curious

Hopefully by the time TP takes delivery of all those A330's and A350s, Ill be ready to apply for the narrowbody fleet (A319's etc)!  bouncy  Wouldnt say no to a A350 though...
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:13 am

Joining the Star Alliance and having a code share agreement with UA... I just wonder what TP's upcoming strategy for North America... I mean, no matter what people think... N. Americans have a lot of disposable income and w/ good marketing (tourism, and LIS connections to EU and Africa) it could very well support Multiple routes for TP/UA and possibly AC to LIS. I personally think its time to think outside of a Newark connection, which UA has a very small presence.

So what do you all think is going to happen in N. America?

Also, what is the status of LIS airport? and possible the new airport? I think this is very imperative to the future of TP. You need good infrastructure to support growth and the passangers needs.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
ricardofg
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:09 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:24 am

I am very happy to see TP doing well, however I think they have to have a stronger presence in North America and not just in EWR. I hear airliners talk over and over again about how YYZ should stick to charter, etc etc etc...but there needs to be a scheduled carrier going to Portugal out of Canada, plus with TP great connections to South Africa and other points in Africa, the demand would be there! I just find it ridiculous that if I want to go to Portugal sked, I have to fly to LHR, FRA, or AMS when there is hundreds or thousands of Portuguese in Ontario and Quebec...so for anyone who keeps saying there isnt demand for a 3x a week flight, thats bogus!
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:37 am

CV990,
Thanks for the figures. TAP chairman in Brazil released some numbers here. Besides that TAP is planing and checking out the market for launching two or three new destinations in Brazil, they said 20% of their pax are Brazilian, 25% Portuguese and 50% European from other countries. As they are facing aircraft shortage, I think they're still going to remain with some A310, as some A332 arrive, what sounds really good.

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 2):
I have trouble understanding why European/Rest of the World airlines can make money consistantly and yet US carriers are nothing but losers...

There are more seats offered in the US market than pax demanding them. It's still usual seeing flights departing almost empty in the US. Load factor in US domestic is still other weak point — too much competition. In addition, European carriers can rely in connections. KLM is a great example, that carries more pax than the poppulation of the Netherlands.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3):
Joining the Star Alliance and having a code share agreement with UA... I just wonder what TP's upcoming strategy for North America... I mean, no matter what people think... N. Americans have a lot of disposable income and w/ good marketing (tourism, and LIS connections to EU and Africa) it could very well support Multiple routes for TP/UA and possibly AC to LIS.

Are TP and CO the only airlines flying between the US and Portugal?
TAP used to fly fly to EWR with A343, but downgraded on behalf of increasing GIG. I believe both JNB and the US will see increase from TP in two or three years.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:13 am

Hi!

First of all I must say that for me ( just my humble opinion... ) the secret why TAP is doing so well is the fact that TAP got deep in the Brasil and South American business because brazilian airlines like VARIG, Transbrasil and VASP started to slide down. Also airlines from Europe like SAS and SWISS or stopped or are flying less. And if we look to TAP network in Brazil they fly a lot of destinations there. I can certainly understand 50% of the traffic are european, they will get anywhere from Europe to Lisbon and then fly direct to one of those destinations..... that's also why the european traffic increased almost the same has Brazil!
Regarding USA strategy seriously in my opinion TAP will keep the daily flight to Newark and will not explore other destinations, if TAP does that they will lose a lot of money competing with big airlines like BA, AF, LH! So I think TAP will be wise to keep that good flight, mainly for portuguese and portuguese community amd portuguese emigrants ( don't forget that TAP get a good feeding from African ex: colonies like Cape Verde, Angola, Mozambique that fly to USA too via LIS ). Maybe TAP will increase in the future to two flights to USA, but other destinations I don't think so!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:20 am

Can you see UA opening up say IAD to LIS on a codeshare with TAP? I keep hearing various stories about UA starting up OP's to Star Alliance partners hubs....but maybe thats another thread!
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:30 am

Hi!

That would be awesome to UA in LIS. I think that would "wake up" both TP and CO! I know that when TW was the "lone rider" in LIS AA almost started a flight from JFK to LIS, but that never happened!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Dirkou
Posts: 372
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:57 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:45 am

Isn't this TAP story all but a ridiculous bluff?

"TAP is just ending another wonderfull year!!! Comments will be greatly welcome!"
"the secret why TAP is doing so well"

Where is the profit - zero? Where is the privatization- none? Where are the new planes - postponed or old A330? Where is labor justice (with a new flight attendant earning 2x what a typical engineer earns)? What about 8500 employees for 35 aircraft - continue there? What about serving the huge portugueses community in JNB with a weekly flight that stops in Maputo - no change until SAA flies to LIS? Why only 3x week to Luanda where demand is much high - to charge $1500 on a return flight? What about a report on customer satisfaction (everyone I talk to say that TAP has the world's most careless F/A around) - continues to be like that? What about an A350 order to be delivered in 2014 (lol) - maybe in 2020 when they start going to the desert?

I believe it's time for everyone to open their eyes and see that what this brazilian CEO is doing is just image: having good relations with unions (which makes things seem to be really good) and having 1 or 2 million Euro/year profits just to say there is a profit (by selling the handling, 20% in Air Macau, etc, etc) which is like being unprofitable for a company of this dimension.

Portuguese guys out there, what is your opinion?
 
FCKC
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:36 am

CV990

Could you tell us which is the route where TAP carries the bigger pax number a year.Not especially the more profitable.
Obrigado.
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 10):
Could you tell us which is the route where TAP carries the bigger pax number a year.Not especially the more profitable.

I can bet it is GRU, as it's been the only destinatinon served daily with their largest aircraft (A340) and GIG has just recently been upgraded to daily.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
(everyone I talk to say that TAP has the world's most careless F/A around)

I dont know who you define as "everyone", but when I fly TP, I get the friendliest flight attendants out there.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
What about an A350 order to be delivered in 2014 (lol) - maybe in 2020 when they start going to the desert?

Since when is the service life of a commercial airliner only 10-12 years? I have trouble finding what is so funny.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
1 or 2 million Euro/year profits just to say there is a profit

Better than being in the red...am I right or wrong here? Would you rather have $20 and say you have money or be in the hole and tell people your bankrupt? Your rational is poor here...

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
Portuguese guys out there, what is your opinion?

That your unhappy about something, or you hate TP. Take your pick.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
Where are the new planes - postponed or old A330?

Where in the "airline rule book" does it say that an airline must only buy new planes, or it shall be deemed that the airline is a fraud?
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:46 am

Thanks AirPortugal... lol... didnt have any energy to respond to that post... but anyhew, I see you work for CapeAir... got a few friend who work in EWB and Hyanis... good peeps...

Cheers,

Ric
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
I personally think these two markets are giving TAP a great income ( Europe and Brazil ),

One market: BRAZIL.

Most of TP's growth in Europe is due to the connecting traffic Brazil-LIS-Europe (pax traveling from/to Brazil to/from Europe via LIS!)

Quoting CV990 (Reply 6):
the secret why TAP is doing so well is the fact that TAP got deep in the Brasil and South American business because brazilian airlines like VARIG, Transbrasil and VASP started to slide down

Well, again, only Brazil (not South America).

Apart from Brazil, with 50 weekly flights, TP only serves CCS 2 or 3 x week.

Also, TAP is successful in Brazil not because of the demise of VP or TR, TAM and GOL are very strong and profitable, but mainly because of TP's CEO Fernando Pinto (former CEO of RG, and with deep knowledge of Brazilian aviation market) who established TP's Brazilian Northeast market niche.

Before the "Pinto era" TP would only fly to GRU and less than daily to GIG; TP was unprofitable and almost closing down.

TP's growth is closely associate and correlated to its flights to Brazil and the Pinto administration. TP relies on the Brazilian market, so while demand for Brazil remains strong, TP will continue doing well.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 10):
Could you tell us which is the route where TAP carries the bigger pax number a year.Not especially the more profitable.

Probably GIG or GRU.

Currently LIS-GIG is TP's most profitable route worldwide; while LIS-GRU (2nd most profitable) has greatest number of pax because TP codeshares with RG (so it sells tickets on two daily flights).

Rgs,
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:56 pm

Hi!

First of all and answering to Dirkou: I really don't know how to answer to all that bad feeling you have, by your words I assume either two things; first - you really hate TAP and try to find out any clues to say that but there's none! second; you don't read most of the topics we put here and you don't collect information about TAP!
If for the first line I can only accept and I'm not going to argue against you, only to tell you that most of us that talk about TAP live here and know things are going, on the second issue it looks that you don't know much information and you don't know what are you talking about, you say that someone said, you come with some silly information regarding TAP fleet, etc. etc. Please save us from all that frustration you have! Have you ever flew TAP before? Do you know a bit about TAP past and the history they have? TAP is one of the best airlines in the world, they were pioneers in many ways and if you know fly safely and use a lot of benefits of navigation etc. etc let me tell you that TAP gave their help to this too. TAP used to fly Lisboa to Maputo in 6 days using C-47's, one of the longest routes in the world in 1946! TAP was one of the first airlines in the world to personalise the cockpits, that came when they ordered the Caravelle. TAP pilots were one of the first ones to use the so called "attitued flying", something that came in the 50's when the airline pilots were flying over turbulence. TAP was the first airline in the world with an all jet fleet. TAP was considered in 1979 the safest airline in the world. TAP was the 2nd. airline in Europe to operate the Boeing 727 back in 1965. What do you want more? Give me a break! Respect TAP and next time before you talk about some issue that you don't know get information first! What you said about TAP reveals that you don't know nothing about TAP, Portugal and us portuguese!!!
Now answering to Hardiwv - although Brazil is indeed big, I have to consider that this country is infact the most developed, and the economic engine of South America. So TAP get's a lot of their traffic also from other countries around Brazil to fly to Europe. Compared with the rest of South America, flights, traffic, passengers, airlines...... Brazil is miles ahead from the rest of those countries, so for me, indirectely TAP get's a lot of income from those places too!!! And let me say, that's understandable, if we get 90% ocupation there's no way portuguese or brazilians fill TAP planes ( Portugal is just 10 million!!! ) so I'm sure that a good slice of those will be latin americans, europeans and from the rest of the world. I also think that TAP doesn't need to get any other flights to any other places in South America, if TAP get the honor of beeing "the pipeline" from that continent to Europe I'm happy! Now if we want to compare with any other airline in Europe TAP got the biggest slice and that's one of the reasons too TAP is expecting to increase their fleet in the end of 2015 with addicional 4 long-haul A350's!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24595
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:39 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
TP only serves CCS 2 or 3 x week.

Five weekly flights. Caracas has always been a very important market for TAP. Even though it is only five weekly flights, Caracas has non-stops not only to Lisbon (3x weekly), but also Porto and Funchal, something Brazil does not.
a.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
Currently LIS-GIG is TP's most profitable route worldwide; while LIS-GRU (2nd most profitable) has greatest number of pax because TP codeshares with RG (so it sells tickets on two daily flights).

Right. TP also keep some very important cargo contracts on GIG. Also Rio keep the biggest portuguese community in Brazil and Americas.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
Most of TP's growth in Europe is due to the connecting traffic Brazil-LIS-Europe (pax traveling from/to Brazil to/from Europe via LIS!)

Agree. TP offers to brazilian northeast the best way to reach Spain, UK, Italy, Germany, Netherlands and others. Looking to this Tam has just begin a weekly service REC-LIS and it's president announced to American Chamber of Commerce in Recife that they keep under studies a weekly REC-JFK. The TP decision to start a strong operation to/from Northeast were just perfect. If you visit nowadays a resort in the region, a good number of people will be from Europe as Tap opens a new frontier. I expect to see TAP with 2 or 3 more routes to Brazil (2 from LIS 1 from OPO non stop).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
airbazar
Posts: 6936
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:04 am

The single most important factor for TAP's turnaround took place when Mr. Pinto came in and TAP started selling through fares between Brazil and Europe. It was baffling for most of us to see just a few years ago, that TAP had such a strong position in the Brazilian market but did not sell it to the rest of Europe. If you wanted to buy a ticket on TAP between AMS and GIG, you had to buy 2 seperate tickets: AMS-LIS, LIS-GIG. And the connections didn't always work.
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
Also, TAP is successful in Brazil not because of the demise of VP or TR

Agreed. Neither TR nor VP left any gap: no airline resumed any of their routes: VIE; BRU; BCN; SEL; MCO; IAD(-BSB); LGW, ATH, CSM.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
TAM and GOL are very strong and profitable

...but don't agree with this comparison. GOL/TAM are in totally different markets than TAP's (except for Brazil-CDG)

Quoting CV990 (Reply 15):
So TAP get's a lot of their traffic also from other countries around Brazil to fly to Europe.

Other than Europeans and Brazilians, other nationalities are abount 5%.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
Apart from Brazil, with 50 weekly flights

Actually, 40 weekly.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 17):
TP offers to brazilian northeast the best way to reach Spain, UK, Italy, Germany, Netherlands and others.

In addition, without detouring your way.

[Edited 2005-11-20 16:22:46]
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
Dirkou
Posts: 372
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:57 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:47 am

CV990: thanks for your answer but it is a little bit strange: bad feeling me?  Smile
Come on...this is not a soccer club, this is aviation, a business...no bad feelings. Ok I know that is difficult to understand in Portugal but no problem.

About not knowing TAP: for your information I've flown with TAP more than 100 times.

Anyway the most important is that you didn't answer any of my questions. Maybe you don't have arguments but here they go again in case you missed them:

1- Where is TAP's profit? How much?
2- Where is the privatization (the reason why Mr Pinto is there now)?
3- Where are the new planes - old A330, ex-Edelweiss or ex-Swiss?
4- Where is labor justice (with a new flight attendant earning 2x what a typical engineer earns)? Do you think this is Ok for a comapny that has never given a profit? BTW what do you think about pilot union concessions at UAL, AAL, DAL...shouldn't that also happen at TAP? Why not?
5- What about 8500 employees for 35 aircraft - continue there?
6- What about serving the huge portugueses community in JNB with a weekly flight that stops in Maputo - no change until SAA flies to LIS?
7- Why only 3x week to Luanda where demand is much high - to charge $1500 on a return flight?
8- What about a report on customer satisfaction (everyone I talk to say that TAP has the world's most careless F/A around) - continues to be like that?
9- What about an A350 order to be delivered in 2014?
10- Why is the sale of a participation in Air Macau included in the final finantial results to give a profit? Same for handling. Who knows will be the next.

Pls don't send another emotive message with good/bad, like/don't like and answer my questions directly to see what your real understand of the company is. Let's be simple here.
 
Dirkou
Posts: 372
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:57 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:40 am

Finally I've started to receive some answers regarding the above and we are starting to discussall this in an inteliggent way (answers on my email).

Here they go:
Some of your comments aren't completly right:

>- "Where is TAP's profit? How much?": 2003 - 19.8 million €; 2005 - 8.9 million €;

Ok. That is great to hear. Anyway were the participations sold in handling and Air Macau included here? What if they were not included?

>- Where is the privatization (the reason why Mr Pinto is there now)?: the current goverment program states 2007, Mr Pinto has always said that TAP needs to be privatized. The previous portuguese goverment lead by Mr. Santana Lopes took a very corageous move by sacking it's representant in TAP's Board, ence give full autonomy to Mr. Pinto team to keep working without governemt interfirence;

Ok I understand and agree. I don't think the problem is with Mr Pinto which BTW in my opinon is doing a wonderful job. The problem is with the general situation: no privatization in the future...still.

>- Where are the new planes - old A330, ex-Edelweiss or ex-Swiss?: TAP will receive 3 A332 in the benning of next year to enable their expantion to brasil (2nd daily fligths to GRU and GIG, and opening new routes to BSB and BEL). Tomorow TAP will annouce in Dubai their acqusition of 11 new A333 and 14 A350. The first A333 will arrive in 2007 and allowing the return of the 3 leased A332;

That is great too. Anyway are the A330 new? Will they replace the A310 or added to the fleet? I also think a flight to BSB would be really interesting.

Thanks again for the person that sent this email. Still waiting for more news so we can discuss this more.

My opinion is that is not "growing steady" like the subject says. It is growing...like any other major european airline in the 5% to 10% range per year - and that itself is not growing but only staying within the market.

Anyway I don't see the basic problems of the airline being solved and that is my point. I see a little profit compared with huge losses before but the main problems are there: too many employees, bad customer service (although turning better with more young crews being hired), flight crews overpaid and most of all resulting from all this and inneficient state-owned carrier.

Waiting for your replies and hope we can have an intelligent discussion here.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 21):
My opinion is that is not "growing steady" like the subject says. It is growing...like any other major european airline in the 5% to 10% range per year - and that itself is not growing but only staying within the market.

Hey Dirkou

If that is industry standard, then you are right that the title may be a little incorrect.

However,

For an airline that within the past years was concentrating primarily on its Europe routes and some Brazil, this is pretty fast expansion on their part.

Ordering a new aircraft type (A330) and even soon to order A350's (a plane that hasnt even been built yet), this is truly a great move.

On a side note, their was a picture on here the other day that showed an A330 being towed in Germany somewhere that I believe was one that was going to TP...looked pretty worn out from just sitting around!
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:56 am

Hi!

Sorry Dirkou, because you've flown more than 100 times ( has you said ) that doesn't mean that you know about TAP and TAP reality! Can you give me your logs about those 100 flights??? Now I'm going to answer to your questions and after my answers you'll probably feel unconfortable with them because they will show your lack about TAP real acknowledgement, here they go:

1 - TAP had a profit of around € 40 million in 2003 and around € 15 million 2004
2 - The privatisation is on his way, TAP first had to consolidated some deep strategies like beeing part of a major alliance, fleet renovation and social peace in TAP itself. Don't worry TAP will be privatised and I hope at that time you'll be around to give your feedback about this issue!!!
3 - If you really paid attention to the topics we came about since late September - when one of our portuguese friends came with the news that TAP was going to make decision between Airbus and Boeing until October - the decision was in favour of Airbus! No one doow here gave dates regarding that, just some ideas that TAP would lease first A330's then evolute to A350! Now maybe you are very anxiuous regading that, maybe you think that we can step over A330's every day but that question you asked reaveals that you don't pay attention in what's going on, and above that you confuse a lot about dates, maybe a weakness on your own!
4 - I don't have any idea what you are talking about that! Do you have numbers, salaries that we can compare? Or you just got that from someone that is in TAP and is not happy down there? Please give me your numbers and I'll try to find out with my sources, but please don't "throw thing in the air"!
5 - That's getting better in the 70's/80's/90's TAP had the same number of airplanes and between 10.000 to 12.000, do you think the scale down is not good???
6 - TAP don't have enough planes to serve in a better way, that's why TAP is getting more planes in the future, but south Africa at this moment is not a big money making for TAP, and I respect that! At least TAP is flying there!!! Things chance since the revolution in 1974 you know that don't you???
7 - I think Luanda is well served considering TAP fleet, also TAAG is flying there, and $ 1.500 for a return flight is not true..... let's say $ 1.000! but why don't you compare that with all the destinations in Africa? all the airlines that fly to Africa charge mostly the same amount, you should complain also with the other airlines not only TAP. I have a friend that is from Kenya and he said BA charged him a fortune too! That's a very deep issue and I'll be willing to discuss that with you but TAP is no different that other airlines!
8 - Whe was the last of your "100 flights" you did? I flew TAP last year from LIS/GIG/LIS and I was very happy the way the airline served me, I had everything like the other airlines had. I flew from LIS to KIX with KL and there was no difference between both airlines, so I'm sorry but you are wrong, maybe again one of your friends that had a bad experience once a lifetime! TAP is so good has any other good airline!
9 - Again, you don't pay attention to the topics here! Tomorrow TAP will sign a contract with Airbus for the A350/A330 at Toulouse! Where were you???
10 - I really don't understand what is your point on that!

Tomorrow I'll bring you news about A350 contract, I hope you are around and read what I say about that and don't come maybe another week latter saying that you still don't know about that!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:04 am

Hey CV900

Do you work for TP? Id like to ask you some questions about TP at some point if I may.

Obrigado  smirk 
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
TAP1972
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:20 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
7- Why only 3x week to Luanda where demand is much high - to charge $1500 on a return flight?

Because the Angolan Government doesn't allow more flights in order to protect TAAG. And believe me even costing $1.500, the flights are always full. Not to mention Business Class for which there is also a great demand



Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
2- Where is the privatization (the reason why Mr Pinto is there now)?

Clean the house first then you can move to privatization. However, it almost happenned with ex-Swissair, do u remember the result? Sabena and Swissair ..... GONE. TAP has only joined STARALLIANCE after some house cleaning, it's a beginning for a potential future privatization.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
1- Where is TAP's profit? How much?

2003: Net income EUR 19,7 millions - profit 2004: EUR 8,7 millions - profit... (it's on the internet you just need to find it). After 9/11, SARS, oil prices going up, I have to say it is a positive performance. Compared with the last 10/20 years.....

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
2- Where is the privatization (the reason why Mr Pinto is there now)?

Sorry to bring this question again.... probably you don't know, but most of all ex-CEO's of TAP, I think this is the only one that understands the aviation business. All the others were "boys" from the political party that was governing the country. His mission was not specifically the privatization, was to put in place a plan to recover TAP from going to bankruptcy. A strategic plan was presented at EU and his responsability was to put that plane working.... it seems that is what he's doing now.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
3- Where are the new planes - old A330, ex-Edelweiss or ex-Swiss?

It's under your nose....it took me 3 mins to find it.... come on

RE: C/Ns For The 5 First A330s TAP (by WINGS Nov 9 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2428307

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
4- Where is labor justice (with a new flight attendant earning 2x what a typical engineer earns)? Do you think this is Ok for a comapny that has never given a profit? BTW what do you think about pilot union concessions at UAL, AAL, DAL...shouldn't that also happen at TAP? Why not?

Can't comment this one. But I can say that TAP provides a lot of benefits to his employees, I can say because my father worked 30 years there and have 3 cousins working in TAP as well.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
5- What about 8500 employees for 35 aircraft - continue there?

It's not 35, but 41. That's something that has been changing. In Portugal you just cannot fire someone without a motive. The nr of workers have been decreasing, by proposing early retirements to older workers or trying to reach a common agreement to end the contract. It's not perfect yet, the levels of efficiency when compared with other companies are not the best but it's getting there. One more thing in the last 5 years you haven't heard about a strike on TAP, when in the past it was very common to see it happenning.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
6- What about serving the huge portugueses community in JNB with a weekly flight that stops in Maputo - no change until SAA flies to LIS?

It's not weekly, at least it's twice a week: tuesdays and fridays (please be more rigorous and less emotional on your questions). 2 things I have to say: first: probably it's only twice a week because TAP has not enough capacity in terms of aircrafts to have more flights to JNB. Second, you need to understand something, TAP doesn't exist to serve the portuguese comunities, but to serve its customers which is different (it's all about marketing). Look at Canada, TAP used to fly there, where there is a huge portuguese comunity and that route was not profitable.... so should have TAP continued to fly there making a loss on that route just to SERVE THE COMUNITY??????????? Also the portuguese comunities accross the world usually come to Portugal on the holiday seasons, not on a so regular basis.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
8- What about a report on customer satisfaction (everyone I talk to say that TAP has the world's most careless F/A around) - continues to be like that?

I'm a frequent flyer on TAP, more on short haul flights right now but I travelled a lot to Brazil and Angola, and you may notice a difference in some flights (not all) between short hall F/A's and the long haul ones. The long haul ones are older and sometimes they are not as much polite as the short haul ones, but to be reasonable with you I can't complain, but have to admit the long haul ones sometimes could try harder.
However, when compared with IB or LH, I don't think TAP's F/A's are worse, as well as BA and AF for short haul. BA and AF on long haul don't give a chance, they are outstanding.
In terms of on board service I think TAP is doing very well better than other european companies as well as on flight entertainment and confort on short haul flights.



Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
9- What about an A350 order to be delivered in 2014?

I really don't understand your question???? Can you wait until monday (tomorrow)?????? I notice some "emotion" on this question.......

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 20):
10- Why is the sale of a participation in Air Macau included in the final finantial results to give a profit? Same for handling. Who knows will be the next.

???????? It seems that you know the numbers....?????? Let me start with the handling piece. It was created a new handling company "Groundforce", where TAP, Portugalia and Globalia are shareholders. All TAP's handling business was transferred to this new company..... Air Macau, like the route to Macau were political decisions, Tap had to cope with that unfortunatly. As I haven't seen the accounts in detail yet I'm not sure wether TAP is recognizing the sale of Air Macau (in case you don't know, TAP is selling his share on Air Macau because it's not strategic) or if it's just adjusting the value of that investment. I explain, if Air Macau is performing well and increasing it's equity TAP, according to the equity method, should adjust the value of the participation on its accounts, generating positive income. The other way is valid also, it it's not performing it should create a reserve to face potential loss on the that investment.

With no emotions I beleive I've tried to answer all your questions..... but I have to say I noticed some emotion on your questions in disregard to some rigor.

[Edited 2005-11-20 18:51:36]
 
TAP1972
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:20 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
One market: BRAZIL.

Most of TP's growth in Europe is due to the connecting traffic Brazil-LIS-Europe (pax traveling from/to Brazil to/from Europe via LIS!)

Don't agree 100% with you. Some European routes are full with pax travelling on business, like LHR, AMS, FRA, MAD, BCN, BRU and some others.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
Why only 3x week to Luanda where demand is much high - to charge $1500 on a return flight?

The Angolan government won't allow more flights.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
What about serving the huge portugueses community in JNB with a weekly flight that stops in Maputo - no change until SAA flies to LIS?

The A340-300 can't do JNB-LIS direct with decent loads (JNB is very hot and very high)

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
What about 8500 employees for 35 aircraft - continue there?

40, actually, and growing.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 9):
Isn't this TAP story all but a ridiculous bluff?

No.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 10):
Could you tell us which is the route where TAP carries the bigger pax number a year.Not especially the more profitable.

If its absolute number of passengers you want it probably is some european route (maybe Funchal). 2 A320s roughly = 1 A340 (in terms of capacity)
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:17 am

Hi Dirkou!!!

I expected some kind of an answer from you but unfortunetly I didn't!!! I don't know if you are still processing or not, but here it goes! First of all regarding the "intelligent discussion" what do you expect when you come with issues like - " Where are the new planes?", " What about an order for the A350 to be delivered in 2014?" - are you trying to make most of the portuguese fouls???? When lately lot's of posts about these issues have been going on and on and you come with that???? So who is trying not to "be intelligent"???
Regarding your 100 TAP flights, I would like you to log them or maybe just give some dates when you flew TAP, destinations and airplanes would help me to understand what you say regarding TAP crews and the way they are not tha friendly! I'm looking forward for that..... meawhile when I talk about TAP I didn't fly that much with them but here are my TAP flights, dates, airplanes, destinations and registrations:

1980/01/08 - MAD/LIS - 727-100 - CS-TBQ
1982/09/17 - LHR/LIS - 707-320B - CS-TBC
1983/01/03 - GVA/LIS - 707-320B - CS-TBG
1983/07/14 - LIS/FCO - 737-200 - CS-TEM
1987/09/08 - LIS/PDL - 727-100 - CS-TBO
1987/09/20 - PDL/LIS - 737-200 - CS-TEP
1989/03/13 - LIS/MAD - 727-200 - CS-TBW
1989/04/26 - LIS/MAD - 727-200 - CS-TBS
1992/09/01 - LIS/LHR - A320-211 - CS-TND
1999/06/26 - FAO/LIS - A320-211 - CS-TND
1999/09/13 - LIS/FAO - A320-211 - CS-TNC
2000/02/23 - FAO/LHR - A320-214 - CS-TNH
2000/02/27 - LHR/FAO - A320-214 - CS-TNH
2004/06/17 - LIS/GIG - A340-312 - CS-TOC
2004/06/29 - GIG/LIS - A340-312 - CS-TOD

Has you can see I flew domestic, I flew to the Islands also, Europe and Brazil. Not at ANY TIME I have to complain about TAP crews, TAP service on board, TAP schedule and TAP fleet.... NOT ONCE! Just to let you know the last time I flew from GIG to LIS, the F/A served me wine, I asked what type were we drinking, she showed me the bottle and after a few moments she came back and asked me if I want another glass!!! I asked for a scotch and she gave, she was kind and the rest of the crew the same!!!! If TAP crews were that bad I think that at least in one of my 15 flights I could get some of the "bad breed"..... I guess I was very lucky because I never had that bad experience!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
airbazar
Posts: 6936
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 25):
Second, you need to understand something, TAP doesn't exist to serve the portuguese comunities, but to serve its customers which is different (it's all about marketing).

That's the quandary that TAP is in today. As a goverment company they exist to serve the Portuguese citizens first. They are after all subsidized - or were? - by the Portuguese tax payer. But as they transition to a private company their priorities are changing too.

A little known fact, remittances from Portuguese emmigrants was Portugal's #1 source of income up until the early 90's. That's no joke people. So the government had to throw these people a bone or two and offer flights back to the motherland at affordable prices. TAP was for the most part, just another form of public transportation. Unfortunatelly that also explains why they never made a profit.
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:29 am

Hi!

TAP is already changing their mentality, otherwise it would have not been possible for them to join STAR Alliance!
TAP have a role to play in this alliance and that's one of the reasons why I confident about them! TAP could not survive without that! Qualifyer was a death-birth with SR and at one point TAP kept discussions with AF and Skyteam..... but surely STAR is the right one now!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
TAP1972
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:20 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:42 am

Hi CV990

I don't have a detailed log like you, but I remember to fly on CS-TBC B707 to Toronto via Montreal many many years ago. It seems our friend was happy with the replies to his questions.


Hi Pyrex, it's 41 planes, TAP got CS-TNB an A320 from Air Luxor, about a month or two ago.

[Edited 2005-11-21 00:12:46]
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:21 am

Glad to see TAP is profitable......my cousin flew them a few years ago JNB-LIS-MPM-JNB and loved it, wanted to fly them ever since.....

Personally I think TAP should look beyond Brazil. Even though it is their main market, there is money to be made elsewhere.

Route ideas:

LIS-BOS connects with the US focus city and serves the sizable Cape Verdean and Portuguese community there

LIS-YYZ AC hub and O-D traffic

LIS-IAD connects with SA)">UA hub

Increase LIS-JNB to at least 4x week. Besides the large Portuguese community in SA, its a logical hub for N America-Africa Connections

LIS-LOS/ACC expanding on the NA-Africa Idea

LIS-TLV maybe take a bite out of the LY/BA/CO/LH oligopoly
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:26 am

Hi TAP1972!

So you flew the good old "Tango Bravo Charlie" to YYZ!!! Great airplane, and still flying for AMI!
Well I'm still curious about "our friend" flight log!!!! 100 times it's a lot of flights, and I would like him to track them down for us!
And you're right, TNB is back to TP and also there's another 319 with the new livery, I had the registration in my mind but I lost it!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
georgiabill
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:27 am

Any chance of seeing TAP fly daily between LIS-BOS?
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 32):
LIS-BOS connects with the US focus city and serves the sizable Cape Verdean and Portuguese community there

Amen brother... It's interesting that TP can't make money on this route... but the second rated SATA does... hmm.... blame the bad management and not the route... with a huge star alliance members here, UA, US, and AC.... BOS to LIS would do very well....

But going back to all these posts... it's interesting how some have to always find faults... if this is all s/he can come up with... than I thnk TP is in good shape.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:41 am

Hi CXA330300 and Georgiabill.

I truly understand both your feelings, specially the ones related to USA. TAP had indeed flights to BOS in the past, I feel sorry that TAP dropped that line. Someone here said that both BOS and YYZ were not profitable! I really don't know that, I don't have any numbers about that situation, I think TAP at that time wanted to serve both communities in USA and Canada! I know that in the 80's CP and latter AC flew to LIS competing with TAP. Also in the summer canadian charter airlines flew to LIS too. It looks that for any reason only now Air Transat is flying regulary in the summer and SATA too. Maybe it's enough!!!
Regarding other lines it looks to me that most are well served by LH, and if TAP is a member of STAR some of those flights are flown by LH, these are the relus I presume! Regarding Africa and Israel, I think in both places LH is again a great choise.... not because I wouldn't mind to see TAP flying there, but just looks that there's not enough traffic. For example at one point I know that TAP wanted to fly there competing with EL AL that flew to LIS, but even EL AL dropped LIS!!!
I think if TAP wants to open new routes it will be probably to Eastern Europe like Ucrania, Moldavia, there are huge communities in Portugal of workers and they normally like to return once a while to their countries. For example Air Ucrania and Air Moldova are flying regulary to LIS so maybe TAP will try that too!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 36):
Regarding Africa and Israel, I think in both places LH is again a great choise....

Lufthansa's fares from the NY area at least are exorbitant to South Africa.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 36):
I think if TAP wants to open new routes it will be probably to Eastern Europe like Ucrania, Moldavia, there are huge communities in Portugal of workers and they normally like to return once a while to their countries. For example Air Ucrania and Air Moldova are flying regulary to LIS so maybe TAP will try that too!!!

Thats a good idea......Ucrania is Ukraine in English by the way.......I think Aeroflot flies LIS-SVO as well?
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
airbazar
Posts: 6936
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 35):
Amen brother... It's interesting that TP can't make money on this route... but the second rated SATA does... hmm.... blame the bad management and not the route... with a huge star alliance members here, UA, US, and AC.... BOS to LIS would do very well....

There are a ton of posts as to why TAP dropped most of their N.America routes. Yes, they were not profitable but neither was TAP as a company. Primarily, like I said before, TAP was just a form of public transportation for the Portuguese emmigrants and all of its management positions were filled with political appointees and industry outsiders. Making money was not a priority.

When Mr. Pinto took over, his first priority was to clean the house. To reach profitability his strategy was to consolidate and concentrate his resources on a market that he knew well: Brazil. So TAP dropped all of their N.American destinations and some less profitable European destinations, as well as Macau and Bangkok. From that point he started the turn around that TAP has enjoyed since. Simply put, they could get more money out of their A310's flying to GIG/GRU, then they could out of BOS/YYZ. It's not so much that they can't make money on BOS/YYZ. It's just that they can make more money in GIG/GRU.

I have no doubt that soon we will see TAP serve other cities in the US again. This market is just too big and too important to be ignored. Especially cities like BOS and YYZ.
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 38):

Right on... whatever its worth... you have earned my respect.

Cheers,

Ric
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
TAP1972
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:20 am

RE: TAP Is Growing Steady!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:27 am

Hi Dirkou

Are you updated with the latest news??? Does it answer to your question nr 9???