BoomBoom
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What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:59 am

What if Airbus had NOT built the A380? What if they had just decided to keep their powder dry and wait to see what Boeing was up to?

What would the competitive landscape look like today?

Would Boeing still have built the 787?

If so, what would Airbus have countered with?
A composite fuselage plane similar to the 787?
Or would they have gone with a large twin to directly challenge the 777?
Or would they still have gone with the A380?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):

Would Boeing still have built the 787?

More than likely, yes. The progression of the 787 from the Yellowstone studies of 1998-2000 is obvious, and Boeing always new the product cylce of the 767 was going to end 20-30 years after its 1981 EIS.

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
A composite fuselage plane similar to the 787?

Not in the immediate future. I do not believe Airbus was planning for the A330 product cycle to end quite so soon, the A350 is a reaction.


Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Or would they have gone with a large twin to directly challenge the 777?

No, Airbus chose it's 777 competitor in 1998 with the launch of the A340-500/600.

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Or would they still have gone with the A380?

I imagine so. The A380 superjumbo has long been part of Airbus strategy to create an entire product line, specifically eclipsing the 747.
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:16 am

I think Boeing would continue the B748 project, the B787 project and the B777LR project.

After all, if there wasn't an A380 then there'd be someone else to build one.

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grantcv
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:20 am

I have been wondering something similar. I think Boeing would have done what they are doing regardless. But I think that Airbus, with one large project already underway, tried to take a cheap route to competing with the 787 by reengining the A330. When that failed to excite the market, the ended up undertaking a more ambitious derivative of the A330. Was that the right move? Should the A330 have become the competitor for the 787? After all, the A330 still sells well and really doesn't need to be replaced yet. I think a better move would have been to develop the A330 as a better competitor to the entire 777 lineup - displacing the A340 which is falling out of favor. And then, separately, building a true replacement for the A300/A310 that would directly compete with the 787. That way, the A330/A340 producton line would be focused on competing with the 777 and a separate production line could compete with the 787. Both aircraft would be better sized for their markets and they would have twice the production capability.

With the current makeup - the A380 is too big and costly, the A350 is either too big or too small, the A340 has too many engines, and the A300/A310 are too old. The only well positioned widebody in their lineup is the A330 and that is being replaced.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:25 am

I would have thought they would have gone with the biggest composite twin they could build to counter the 777, since the A340 doesn't compete very well in this segment anymore.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
aseem
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:26 am

for sure the B744Adv or B748 project as you call wouldn't have materialized.
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BG777300ER
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 5):
sure the B744Adv or B748 project as you call wouldn't have materialized.

I agree, even though many people say that the 748 was not built as a DIRECT competitor, it was still built (in my opinion) to take away some sales from the A380. In other words, it was built to earn the market of customers who needed something bigger than the 747 but inside thought the A380 might be a little too big for them but were thinking of getting the A380 because no alternative big plane was present (if this sentence makes any sense at all). No matter what people say, the 748 was a reaction to the A380.

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Would Boeing still have built the 787?

Yes, it's unrelated to the A380.

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
If so, what would Airbus have countered with?

I think airbus would've built a composite and reengined twin (basically the A350 still) that would've been what it is now. But I think they would've made models of it that would've infringed on the upper part of the 787 market (in terms of passengers) and the lower part of the 777 market (especially the 772 market). In other words, they would've built a plane that would take away customers who thought the 787 was too small and the 777-300 too big.
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airportugal310
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
What if Airbus had NOT built the A380?

Then this thread would have never existed...
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keta
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
No, Airbus chose it's 777 competitor in 1998 with the launch of the A340-500/600

But that's because they had the A380 program. Maybe, if the A380 had not been there, they'd have made a new competitor for the 777.
Where there's a will, there's a way
 
Aither
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:48 am

Why ? the A330/A340 family was born in the early 90s and showed it is capable to compete with the 777.
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MarshalN
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:09 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 9):
Why ? the A330/A340 family was born in the early 90s and showed it is capable to compete with the 777.

I agree

I also think the 748 would not have shown up. We'll still be stuck with the 744, and possibly with 744 having more orders. I think there is a market for VLA though, and somebody at some point would've jumped the gun.
 
airfrnt
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
What if Airbus had NOT built the A380? What if they had just decided to keep their powder dry and wait to see what Boeing was up to?

I suspect that Boeing would have pushed another iteration of the 747. I do not think that it would be anywhere near as large as the A380, but it certainly would have a new wing, and a lot of the design features that made it int hte A380 (bleedless engines most probably).

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):

No, Airbus chose it's 777 competitor in 1998 with the launch of the A340-500/600.

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. The number of 777s to 340s definitly are so lobsided that one wonders if there was anything Airbus could have done to more efficently challange the 777.

Quoting Aither (Reply 9):
Why ? the A330/A340 family was born in the early 90s and showed it is capable to compete with the 777.

The A330 competed more directly against the 767 and 757, not the 777. To that end it did it's job well putting the 757 in the graveyard. Now the 787 will do the same to the A330 and the 346 will continue to be outsold dramatically versus the 777.

I really think Airbus's focus on the A3XX late in the 90s hurt the 346. I suspect that we would not be looking at large orders for the 777 in former Airbus stronghold (EK an CX) in particular if these planes had the same focus the A3XX did.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 7):
Then this thread would have never existed...

LOL!
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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Stitch
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:08 am

The A3XX was first announced around the end of 1996. I believe the B745 and B746 proposals were announced around the same time?

So if the A380 program had never been launched, I imagine Boeing would have still offered a 745/746, and those programs probably would have gained traction, since they filled the same need as the A380 does (just not as well, in the minds of the airlines, which is why they went with the A380).

Boeing would have launched the 772LR, just because Airbus had the A345. Yes, it's a "nice" market, but with the 772F, Boeing knew they could make money on the program.

The 787 would have happened, and probably about as quickly. The A330 really hammered the 767 into the ground, so Boeing had to come up with something. With the airlines making money hand over fist, the Sonic Cruiser still would have been offered first - but as a way to blunt the A330 instead of the A380. When what happened...happened...Boeing would have moved from the SC to the 787.

Airbus would be replying with the A350, of course, and working on an A340-600NG (with more composites and A350 engines) I imagine to blunt the 777-300ER and (maybe) 747-400/500 programs.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: What If The A380 Had NOT Been Built

Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):

glad to see you have an objective point of view this time  Wink

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