PlaneLuver
Topic Author
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Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:29 am

hey dudes

i've been following airliners.net for quite some time and decided it was time to take the plunge and buy a membership so i can start throwing in my two cents every once in a while...

anyway, before US joined Star Alliance, they were competing head to head against AC on the YYZ-PHL and YYZ-CLT routes. even after US joined SA and AC invested some dough in the new US-HP merged carrier, they're still competing against each other on these routes and have yet to set up any codesharing arrangement, which makes no business sense given their relationship...

any ideas as to why this might be???
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:13 am

hmmm I think it could be a good thing to do a codeshare eh...

In theory they couldn't they both operate the same number of flts as now, do a codeshare on each one and bang they've both doubled their frequency (higher frequency supposedly attracts more business customers no?) without doubling the seats offered and completly flooding the market and loosing money??


CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:57 pm

They just haven't got around to that yet. As part of the US Airways / America West merger deal that saw Air Canada give US some financing we should start to see this, perhaps in 2006. Unfortunately US Airways joined Star Alliance and went into bankruptcy soon after so it probably hasn't been a priority. You can't even buy AC flights on the US website yet... but you can't buy HP flights on there either.
 
A330323X
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:43 pm

They will be codesharing soon. They're apparently waiting for the DOT to rule on the expanded SkyTeam antitrust immunity application; if that's granted, US and AC (and US and its European Star partners) will be applying for ATI of their own, if it's denied, they'll just apply for a codeshare with AC. They could just apply for a more limited codeshare right now, and the ATI later; I'm not sure why they didn't do that. They'll continue competing on the same routes even after they codeshare (well, with an ATI, they'll be cooperating and not competing, but they'll still likely both be serving the routes where they currently overlap).

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 2):
Unfortunately US Airways joined Star Alliance and went into bankruptcy soon after so it probably hasn't been a priority.

Bankruptcy has nothing to do with it, it's just taken this long because of the antitrust issues. US does codeshare with Star Alliance partners bmi, Lufthansa, United, and Spanair, along with several other partners.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 2):
You can't even buy AC flights on the US website yet... but you can't buy HP flights on there either.

Huh? You can indeed buy HP flights on the US website, and vice versa, on routes where they codeshare, which is currently about half of their networks, and rapidly expanding.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting A330323X (Reply 3):
Huh? You can indeed buy HP flights on the US website, and vice versa, on routes where they codeshare, which is currently about half of their networks, and rapidly expanding.

I stand corrected. I tried to book a PIT to SAN just a couple of weeks ago via PHX and there was nothing. I guess they started loading the codeshares recently.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:52 pm

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 2):
but you can't buy HP flights on there either.

Try booking ABE-LAS. Better yet... go to the HP website, and try booking ABE-LAS. There's the irony, walking into ABE and seeing America West flight numbers.

For the code sharing... isn't there a rule that states you can't codeshare on the hub-to-hub O&D flights, only if you connect through one. For instance MDT-PHL-YYZ would be fine because of the connection, but not PHL-YYZ because those are respective hubs?

[Edited 2005-11-22 14:53:49]
 
sebring
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
For the code sharing... isn't there a rule that states you can't codeshare on the hub-to-hub O&D flights, only if you connect through one. For instance MDT-PHL-YYZ would be fine because of the connection, but not PHL-YYZ because those are respective hubs?

Nope, you can code-share any flight. UA codeshares all of AC's O&D routes and vice-versa.
 
A330323X
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):
Nope, you can code-share any flight. UA codeshares all of AC's O&D routes and vice-versa.

That's because UA and AC have antitrust immunity. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to codeshare on all routes like that, which is why I said US/AC are waiting to be able to get ATI, rather than settle for a limited codeshare.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
yegbey01
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:10 pm

Actually...AC and UA do not code share all flights.

I recently flew YYZ-BDL. NO UA codeshare on the flight
 
PDPsol
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:36 pm

Indeed, AC is an equity holder in the new US, via AC's parent company, ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. Right after the US/HP merger closed on September 27, AC announced a slew of cooperation agreements with US, including mx/repair work for US in Canada and new additional transborder flights as well as new codeshares.

AC owns 5 million US shares, representing a 6.1% ownership in US.

AC was part of a group of six investors that provided $565 million of new cash investments to US Airways Group, including $440 million of cash and $125 million conversion of outstanding principal of debtor-in-possession financing, in exchange for shares of US Airways Group common stock. This investment was made concurrently with the closing of the US/HP merger on September 27, 2005.

Another of the six investors, Eastshore Aviation LLC, is owned directly by Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation [ZW]. So, ZW owns 8.3 million US shares, representing a 10.2% ownership in US.

The remaining four investors are purely financial portfolio investors, such as Par Investment Partners, Peninsula Investment Partners, Wellington Management and Tudor Proprietary Trading.

US is now WELL-CAPITALIZED and its investors have exercised their options and warrants to increase their stake in the carrier.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:02 pm

BTW, here's another interesting tidbit regarding the six US investors: they purchased the shares at USD 15.00/share.

This represented a 22.3% discount to the public offering price of USD 19.30/share for the USD 164 million public stock offering executed concurrently with the closing of the US/HP merger.

Since the merger and the public offering closed on September 27, US shares have appreciated 68.4% and closed today at USD 32.50/share!

This means AC has already booked a [paper] profit of USD 87.5 million on its original USD 75 million investment! Not bad!
 
Tornado82
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:06 pm

Damn, I was gonna buy 50 shares when it came out at $19.30 too but lost the balls to do it.  banghead 
 
PlaneLuver
Topic Author
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:10 am

RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 9):
Indeed, AC is an equity holder in the new US, via AC's parent company, ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. Right after the US/HP merger closed on September 27, AC announced a slew of cooperation agreements with US, including mx/repair work for US in Canada and new additional transborder flights as well as new codeshares.

Yeah, for the relatively small amount of money AC invested, they're gonna make a ton of money off maintenance contracts.
 
PlaneLuver
Topic Author
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
Damn, I was gonna buy 50 shares when it came out at $19.30 too but lost the balls to do it.

Why not consider buying some ACE stock??? It's doing amazingly well compared to most North American carriers. Yesterday it was at $36.50 CDN per share (roughly $31.12 USD) on the Toronto Stock Exchange.
 
yow
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 8):
Actually...AC and UA do not code share all flights.

That's for sure and vice versa. AC does not code share yet on UA's Shuttle America operated flights from YOW and YUL, even though UA's code shows up on AC's flights on the exact same routes. Shuttle has applied for permission to do so, so it should happen within the next few months.
 
PlaneLuver
Topic Author
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:10 am

RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 3):
They will be codesharing soon. They're apparently waiting for the DOT to rule on the expanded SkyTeam antitrust immunity application; if that's granted, US and AC (and US and its European Star partners) will be applying for ATI of their own, if it's denied, they'll just apply for a codeshare with AC. They could just apply for a more limited codeshare right now, and the ATI later; I'm not sure why they didn't do that. They'll continue competing on the same routes even after they codeshare (well, with an ATI, they'll be cooperating and not competing, but they'll still likely both be serving the routes where they currently overlap).

How long do you think that will take???
 
A330323X
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RE: Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting PlaneLuver (Reply 15):
How long do you think that will take???

Well, I think the DOT will rule on the Expanded SkyTeam ATI very soon. So I'd expect US/AC to file for whatever they decide to file for within the next two months.

A mere codeshare application should not be controversial (doesn't mean other airlines won't complain, though), and should be approved about eight weeks after it's filed, give or take two weeks. An application for ATI will be controversial, even if the Expanded SkyTeam ATI is approved. There will be time for the airline to file exhibits, other airlines to file answers and rebuttals, US/AC to answer them, and so on. Just all the filings by the various airlines would likely take four months to complete, with a decision coming two or three months after that. They may decide to file for both at the same time, so as to quickly get the codeshare approval while waiting for the ATI; again, I'm rather surprised they haven't already filed for the codeshare.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.

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