Indy
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NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:47 pm

Frontier in the past couple of days has started selling IND-CUN tickets. Its a 3x weekly service that will for a month or two butt heads with NW on the saturday service. It is nice that NW has this route but I'm not sure this will be worth keeping for them. The Frontier equipment is much nicer on that route. 18" seats with a 33" pitch and ptv's is hard to compete with. Do you suspect NW will dump that route or try and price Frontier out?
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SFOMEX
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
Frontier in the past couple of days has started selling IND-CUN tickets.

I think is great, but I really wonder about the wisdom of starting a new route to CUN right now. Good luck!
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:57 pm

Supposedly the demand is there. I believe the news here had stated that some 800 people a week fly to Cancun from Indianapolis. My only concern is there being two saturday flights.
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Tornado82
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:03 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 1):
CUN right now.

Indy: The demand *was* there, but is it *still* there after the hurricane? I think that's what SFOMEX was hinting to.
 
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 2):
Supposedly the demand is there.

I was talking about hurricane Wilma. CUN is being rebuildt right now and it seems it will take another two months to get it on track.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:09 pm

Thats fine SFO. The NW route doesn't start back up until Jan and the Frontier route doesn't start until March.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:15 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
The NW route doesn't start back up until Jan and the Frontier route doesn't start until March.

That makes sense. Thanks Indy.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
That makes sense. Thanks Indy.

As long as NW doesn't do something crazy like apply to the DOT to make the service 3x or 5x weekly or worse daily. I can't wait to see the loads on the saturday service for these two airlines come March when they both are running it.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:28 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 7):
As long as NW doesn't do something crazy like apply to the DOT to make the service 3x or 5x weekly or worse daily.

You never know. When Frontier started SLC/CUN as Saturday only, Delta - having ignored Cancun from Salt Lake City - immediately went for daily service.

As to the state of Cancun, they expect to have 85% of the hotel rooms open by December 15.

Frontier is presently running a limited schedule, but ten days ago they said that all flights until early December were "packed".

cheers

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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:43 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 7):
As long as NW doesn't do something crazy like apply to the DOT to make the service 3x or 5x weekly or worse daily.

Northwest can fly 7x daily IND-CUN if they want to. They don't need to apply for anything, they have the authority to.

Quote:
I can't wait to see the loads on the saturday service for these two airlines come March when they both are running it.

The Saturday loads will probably be excellent. Saturday is the busiest travel day to and from Cancun, especially with many tourists going on Saturday-to-Saturday packages.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:45 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Northwest can fly 7x daily IND-CUN if they want to. They don't need to apply for anything, they have the authority to.

So even though NW applied for saturday only service to CUN they can still run as often as they want? If I remember correctly NW asked specifically for that day unlike the F9 application which asked for the 3x weekly with the option of adding more if the market demanded it.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:49 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 10):
So even though NW applied for saturday only service to CUN they can still run as often as they want? If I remember correctly NW asked specifically for that day unlike the F9 application which asked for the 3x weekly with the option of adding more if the market demanded it.

Yes. There are no frequency nor aircraft size restrictions on US-Mexico routes. Airlines can adjust capacity and frequency as much as they want.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:57 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Yes. There are no frequency nor aircraft size restrictions on US-Mexico routes. Airlines can adjust capacity and frequency as much as they want.

Do they specify things like saturday service in order to improve their chances of having the application approved?
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:07 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 12):

Do they specify things like saturday service in order to improve their chances of having the application approved?

The only time airlines need to worry about not getting approved is one there are competing applications for more than the number of available frequency positions. Otherwise, all US-Mexico route authorites are approved regardless, assuming the airline is authorized to fly internationally, is a scheduled airline, good safety record, etc, etc.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:02 pm

-Remember NWA is still for formidable competitor.
-When Frontier started MSP to LAX service NWA matched and even started DEN to LAX. The verdict. Frontier is out of the MSP to LAX nonstop market and so is NWA on the DEN to LAX market.
-While the Frontier equipment is more customer friendly. The power of the FF programs play a huge role.
-NWA still is a safe reliable way to travel. They are currently running over a 99% completion factor for November.

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-11-21 13:03:38]

[Edited 2005-11-21 13:06:27]
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
They are currently running over a 99% completion factor for November.

Can't argue that number  Smile
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
NWA still is a safe reliable way to travel.

Are you suggesting that Frontier is not safe?

And, according to Northwest, their latest completion factor was 91.6% - about the same as Frontier:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050901/nwac8-k.html

Frontier, of course, was tops in on time performance.

http://www.frontierairlines.com/news...cle=/general/2005/pr_11032005.news

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-11-21 21:28:52]
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Are you suggesting that Frontier is not safe?

don't see where you would get that from.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
The Saturday loads will probably be excellent. Saturday is the busiest travel day to and from Cancun, especially with many tourists going on Saturday-to-Saturday packages.

second that. I imagine most, if not all of the Saturday flights from February through April will be sold out. Northwest, I would even say, could put a second run on Sundays and that flight would be sold out. I know a lot of the Big Ten Schools and the other colleges in the area, going beyond the spring break activities, have been using the history of the area, i.e. the ruins, etc. as a field study program which typically involves a class meeting 5 or 6 times during the semester and then the week, 10-day, or two week travel study excursion.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 17):
don't see where you would get that from.

In comparing NWA to Frontier, he said:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
NWA still is a safe reliable way to travel.

The implication being that NWA is "safer".

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willbdsp
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:33 am

With the flights coming from CUN, do they have to go to the International Arrivals building, which isn't connected to the main terminal?
 
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):

The implication being that NWA is "safer".

not at all. this has nothing to do with Frontier, but NWA itself.

the implication being despite all the bad press about cut wages, mechanics strikes, flat tires, etc., that NWA is still a safe way to travel.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 20):
not at all. this has nothing to do with Frontier, but NWA itself.

I'll take your word for it. However, the thread is about the competition between the two:

NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

And the post in question - #14 - is all about comparisons between the two airlines.

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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
And the post in question - #14 - is all about comparisons between the two airlines.

it reads

"NWA is still a safe reliable way to travel. They are currently running over a 99% completion factor for November."

this has nothing to do with compromising the safety of one airline over another.

nothing.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:29 am

Ah, the joy of selectivity: His point #1:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
-Remember NWA is still for formidable competitor.

His point #2:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
-When Frontier started MSP to LAX service NWA matched and even started DEN to LAX. The verdict. Frontier is out of the MSP to LAX nonstop market and so is NWA on the DEN to LAX market.

His point #3:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
-While the Frontier equipment is more customer friendly. The power of the FF programs play a huge role.

These are all comparatives. But - apparently - his point #4 is not a comparative.

Okay, I won't argue. Whatever you say. I guess they teach English differently in schools these days.

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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
The power of the FF programs play a huge role

Yes, on high yield markets like IND-CUN!  sarcastic 

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
NWA still is a safe reliable way to travel

Oh, so lets get this right, should all airlines outsource their "safety"?


KAHALA777
 
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
Ah, the joy of selectivity

there's no selectively.

Point 1 - states a point that NWA remains a competitor to any airline despite their current problem

Point 2 - reminds us that NWA and Frontier have shared direct competition routes before

Point 3 - discusses Frontier's big trump card of the in flight entertainment and discusses NWA's big trump card of their frequent flyer program

Point 4 - reminds us that despite their current problems and what we've been hearing in the news, NWA has completed 99% of their published schedule which means, obviously, no problems along the way

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 24):
Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
The power of the FF programs play a huge role

Yes, on high yield markets like IND-CUN! sarcastic

the power of the Northwest frequent flyer program spawned the Indianapolis growth to begin with.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 24):
Oh, so lets get this right, should all airlines outsource their "safety"?

outsourcing or directly hired, the job still gets done.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 25):
there's no selectively.

If you don't understand comparatives - especially in a thread about competition - then we have a different understanding of English grammar.

But - um - I'd check your spelling of "selectivity".

cheers

mariner
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Indy
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
NWA still is a safe reliable way to travel.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think perhaps you guys are reading far too much into this statement. When I look at that statment I think perhaps this has to do with all the changes at NW and the outsourcing of the maintenance jobs. Perhaps this post would have to do with people feeling NW was no longer as safe and reliable as it was because of all the outsourcing and this post is just trying to state that they are safe and reliable. This having nothing to do with the safety and/or reliability of Frontier.

Just my take on it.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 27):
I'm going out on a limb here but I think perhaps you guys are reading far too much into this statement.

Absolutely. Which is why my original post on it was a question -

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Are you suggesting that Frontier is not safe?

"Are you...?" as opposed to "You are..."

 Smile

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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
And, according to Northwest, their latest completion factor was 91.6% - about the same as Frontier:

Do you not read, he said for NOVEMBER! That is like for August statistics.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Frontier, of course, was tops in on time performance.

Wrong, Hawaiian Airlines had the best on-time performence according to the DOT.
 
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:43 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
If you don't understand comparatives - especially in a thread about competition - then we have a different understanding of English grammar.

the grammar is there. don't know why or how you are missing it but it seems you just keep going on and on here because you don't like to be proven incorrect.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
But - um - I'd check your spelling of "selectivity".

okay, great. but i can admit to misspelling a word rather than keep on posting and posting out of left field reasons why i didn't concerning "selectivity and grammar comparison issues"

Quoting Indy (Reply 27):
When I look at that statment I think perhaps this has to do with all the changes at NW and the outsourcing of the maintenance jobs.

bingo!

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 29):
Wrong, Hawaiian Airlines had the best on-time performence according to the DOT.

bingo #2

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 29):
Do you not read, he said for NOVEMBER! That is like for August statistics.

bingo #3
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
-While the Frontier equipment is more customer friendly. The power of the FF programs play a huge role.

Frontier also has a FF program, and it is a mileage based one, with elite levels, like a legacy carrier, not a point based one like most US LCCs. They also have mileage agreements with other airlines. Additionally, they allow people to redeem US awards (including ANC) for 15,000 miles, not the normal 25,000
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
They also have mileage agreements with other airlines.

Starting with the new year, that will no longer be true...F9's only two previous mileage partners were YX and VS...YX was dropped about 3 months ago or so, and VS will be dropped at the turn of the year...

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mariner
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 29):
Do you not read, he said for NOVEMBER! That is like for August statistics.

November is not over. November stats have not - to my knowledge - been published.

I understand and accept that some who work for NWA may have access to unpublished information, but (a) I repeat, the month is not over yet and (b) most of us work from publsihed stats.

The stats I linked to were the last provided by NWA. If you have others that are more recent, of course I would be pleased to see them.

But I think even you might agree that a jump from 91% to 99% in a month that has not yet been published is - well - a statement open to question.

Then again, you might not.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 29):
Wrong, Hawaiian Airlines had the best on-time performence according to the DOT.

How did Hawaiian come into a debate about Frontier and Northwest?

I said Frontier was "tops", which remains true. In this discussion, between Frontier and Northwest, Frontier was "tops" - Northwest was "bottoms".

This discussion (I thought) is about comparatives between Frontier and Northwest (see thread title), and, just for the record, the only two airlines I have mentioned are Frontier and Northwest.

Hawaiian?

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 30):
the grammar is there. don't know why or how you are missing it but it seems you just keep going on and on here because you don't like to be proven incorrect.

Clearly, the grammar is not there, because it caused me to question it, as in (yet again):

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Are you suggesting that Frontier is not safe?

A question - an inquiry as to what he actually means. If the grammar had "been there" - I would not have needed to question it.

You chimed in with:

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 17):
don't see where you would get that from.

And the answer is: from what he wrote, which is - to me - not clear. Which is why I questioned it.

I am sorry that you take some umbrage at such a question, but when we are discussing safety, I believe we should be very, very clear. I don't think safety is a thing to be glib about.

It is not a question of being "correct" or being "proven incorrect".

cheers

mariner
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:55 am

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 32):
Starting with the new year, that will no longer be true...F9's only two previous mileage partners were YX and VS...YX was dropped about 3 months ago or so, and VS will be dropped at the turn of the year...

That is too bad. At least you still the 15K rewards.
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
That is too bad. At least you still the 15K rewards.

And, for elites, the More Store:

http://www.frontiermorestore.com/default.cfm

Someone got a brand new Merc for just over a million miles.

cheers

mariner
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Indy
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:21 pm

Kind of off topic but I noticed a sign for Northwest Cargo at IND a few weeks back. Have they been there for ages or is that a recent addition since they started the focus city? How big are their cargo operations here?
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):

Dude, I have been away for awhile. But where do you get off saying I said F9 is unsafe? I never ever said that anywhere NOR did I imply it. I was just simply stating NWA is up for the compitition. I realize, that you love F9 because they named an airplane "Mariner." But really man, attack someone else. And stop putting words in my replies. You only make yourself look like a fool. And judging by the im's I got, I would say you have succeeded !

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-11-28 18:35:51]
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 37):
But where do you get off saying I said F9 is unsafe?

I did not say that, nor did I "attack" you. All I did was ask you a question which you have now answered.

I accept that you did not mean to imply was Frontier was unsafe.

But if asking a question to clarify a statement makes me "a fool", then I have been a fool all my life and will probably die a fool.

cheers

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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
The stats I linked to were the last provided by NWA. If you have others that are more recent, of course I would be pleased to see them.

The stat of 91% provided by Northwest was for one day , August 19 which was the day before the mechanics went on strike and they were messing thinks up. The completion factor quickly shot up to 97.8% than up to 99% where it is today. Suggest you re-read the form 8-k which Northwest filed.
 
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:55 am

I don't mix words. If I have something to say. I say it. In print and generally use spell check.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Are you suggesting that Frontier is not safe?



Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 14):
NWA still is a safe reliable way to travel.

Ok, from your quote and mine. How on Earth do you get I am saying anything about F9? People have been blasting NWA. Somethings right on target and others mis-guided. But making a comment about NWA being a safe and reliable way to travel is not saying anything about F9. Nice try at stiring the pot though.

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-11-28 18:58:06]
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 40):
How on Earth do you get I am saying anything about F9?

It is all spelled out in some detail in the posts above. I'm not going to get into this again.

I have accepted that you did not intend it, which is all I was trying to clarify in the first place.

cheers

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RE: NW To Compete With Frontier On IND-CUN

Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 41):
It is all spelled out in some detail in the posts above. I'm not going to get into this again.

Good I am glad. When I mention something about F9 ever in a negative way. Take it that way. Until then. Don't put words in my mouth or on my posts that are not there. Now go wipe the egg off your face and enjoy the day. You should have never gotten into it in the first place. Since what you are claiming is NOT there. "It is all spelled out in "some" detail." Only in your head.

For the record.

-NWA is a viable competitor.
-Frontier offers customer friendly equipment.

Safe Flying  Smile

Buh Bye !
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......