Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:11 pm

The last week has seen considerable fog-condition in the nothern part of France,Belgium and western Germany.Numerous flights had to be re-routed to sometimes very remote airports (Beauvais rerouted to Hahn -600 Km busride..).
Some of the airports used by Ryanair don't have ILS Cat 3 b,which basiacelly allows bad weather landings with minima-ceiling requirements.
This is not a post to dis-credit Ryanair-pilots,their safety records or anything else that could question the pilot's-capabilities.But the choosing of secondary airports with not alwyas up-to-date ILS infrastructure can cause some serious credibility issue with passengers,stranded in the middle of nowhere and facing a lengthy bus-rides through fog and slippy roads.
Again-Ryanair has an outstanding safety record and never had any major safety issues- but if I consider HHN as major base with some weeks per year of fog without ILS 3b infrastructure - I see potential problems ahead...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:28 pm

Update from the Ryanair-web-site :

Urgent Information - Last Updated: 21 Nov 05 12:57
Due to low visibility (fog) Frankfurt Hahn, Brussels Charleoi, Paris Beauvais airports our below legal operating limits, aircraft are currently unable to land. All flights operating this morning to Frankfurt Hann, Brussels Charleoi, Paris Beauvais have been forced to divert to alternate airports. While this is outside our control we will endeavour to minimise disruption to schedule. Any passenger effected by a flight cancellation make call our dedicated reservation line at 00353 1 249 7700
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
HT
Posts: 5857
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:32 pm

Maybe FR will put some pressure on Fraport to install a ILS Cat 3b instrumentation ? Or is this already foreseen for the expanded (lengthened) runway ?

Not only FR will benefit from this but also those cargo operators using HHN ...

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Beauvais rerouted to Hahn -600 Km busride..).

Would this be a legal enroute-alternate? Or was this new destination HHN already known before the flight plan was submitted?

BTW, in case HHN becomes fogged in, why does FR divert to CGN and not to FRA ?

-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:38 pm

FR will divert to the cheapest airport within range,taking into consideration the rotation of aircraft bach to home-base.
HHN has ILS Cat.3b for one runway-direction,but the Ryanair Boeing 737-800 seem to be fitted with Cat3 a .
So there is a miss-match between infrastructure on some airports ,aircraft and pilot's qualification ( at least some ). Charleroi has only ILS Cat 1 ...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:38 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
While this is outside our control we will endeavour to minimise disruption to schedule.

Well, choosing appropriate airports would be inside their control...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
Any passenger effected by a flight cancellation make call our dedicated reservation line at 00353 1 249 7700

They'll love their telephone bill some weeks later...  hot 


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7068
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:44 pm

Cat3a and Low cost airports do not work together in terms of the price Ryanair wants to pay for airport facilities.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 2):
why does FR divert to CGN and not to FRA ?

Maybe because FRA doesn't have any slots available on a 15 minute notice...?
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
HT
Posts: 5857
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 6):
Quoting HT (Reply 2):
why does FR divert to CGN and not to FRA ?

Maybe because FRA doesn't have any slots available on a 15 minute notice...?

Well, I was thinking of the diversions listed in thread Today CGN Got 7 FR Flights (by TheSonntag Nov 21 2005 in Civil Aviation) which landed at 0000 - 0030h, but seeing that FR is not a "regular" visitor to FRA they might have trouble getting permission to land that late ("slots" shoul dnot be a problem at midnight ... )
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:42 am

Absolutely dreadful scenery at HHN this evening- hundreds of passengers stranded without any news,transport or available booking-counter (only two counters for the whole airport..)
ILS is out in HHN due to runway-extension- most planes had to be diverted and buss-loads of passengers arrive to HHN to find out they can't continue..
Not a good publicity for Ryanair !!
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
User avatar
airbuseric
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:24 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:58 am

Also FR flights to EIN were re-routed to RTM due to heavy fog over the weekend...

Rgds
Eric
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
A350
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 3):
HHN has ILS Cat.3b for one runway-direction,but the Ryanair Boeing 737-800 seem to be fitted with Cat3 a .
So there is a miss-match between infrastructure on some airports ,aircraft and pilot's qualification ( a

Could someone be so kind to enlighten me what the difference between ILS Cat3a and Cat3b is and why where is no standard? Thanks a lot  santahat 

At least I know that the train that brings me to the southwest of Germany for christmas operates perfectly at fog  stirthepot 

A350
 
DrP
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:41 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:47 pm

Cat IIIa capability allows autolandings in visibility of 700m or greater, wheras Cat IIIb is 150m or greater  Smile
My pony plays the mamba . .
 
A350
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting DrP (Reply 11):
Cat IIIa capability allows autolandings in visibility of 700m or greater, wheras Cat IIIb is 150m or greater

Thanks, but there, I have a dumb question: can't modern airliners land completely automatically, appropriate ILS provided?

A350
 
Avro85
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:35 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:51 pm

@DRP
The values you've written should be in ft  Wink

Quoting A350 (Reply 10):
Could someone be so kind to enlighten me what the difference between ILS Cat3a and Cat3b is and why where is no standard

The ICAO defines three categories of visibility for landing civil aircraft with the aid of an instrument landing system.

CATI: DH>200ft, RVR>= 2600ft
CATII: DH>100ft, RVR>= 1200ft
CATIIIa: DH <100ft, RVR >=700ft
CATIIIb: DH < 50ft, RVR>= 150ft
CATIIIc: No limits for DH and RVR

DH is the decison height which is the height above the runway at which the landing must be aborted if the runway is not in sight. And RVR is the Runway visual range which is the visibility at the runway surface.

The airport equipment and the airborne avionics and crew must also meet requirements to conduct such landings:

CATI: ILS and marker beacons, one pilot
CATII: Dual ILS receiver, radar altimeter, A/P coupler or dual flight director, 2 pilots, missed approach attitude guidance (go-around)
CATIIIa: Fail-passive (dual) autopilot or Head-up display (HUD)
CATIIIb: Fail-operational (triple) auotpilot, automatic rollout
CATIIIc: I don't know the additional requirements for this category

I hope this helps

Cheers
Chris
 wave 
 
DrP
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:41 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:14 pm

Much better explanation from Avro85 - thanks Big grin

Modern airliners can land themselves automatically, but ILS systems are not always 100% accurate, so it's always best to check you're landing on a runway and not a motorway in next to zero visibility  Wink
My pony plays the mamba . .
 
olympicbis
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:32 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:14 pm

Solution to this issue : fly a "real" airline, operating from fully equipped airports and having planes and pilots rated for operating properly under such fog conditions which are very common at this time of the year. Yes, your ticket will cost you something more but you will fly, and not find yourself stranded in the middle of a fogged out nowhere.
 
DrP
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:41 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:21 pm

Pretty much all LCC pilot's are trained in LVP's (Low Visibility Procedures), I know that all U2 and FR pilots are (a/c permitting). Diverts can happen to anyone when the weather is below limits, not just LCC's. It's just unfortunate they had to go 600 miles to an alternative!  Sad
My pony plays the mamba . .
 
Avro85
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:35 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting DrP (Reply 16):
Diverts can happen to anyone when the weather is below limits, not just LCC's

Indeed, diversions can happen to anyone. And it even happens to full frills airlines from time to time. I agree that the chance is higher to get a diversion if you fly to smaller airports which are not always well equipped. When you fly FR you know the conditions and you know that in case of bad weather or technical problems you won't get any customer service. But what can you ask more you only paid a few cents. You know the rules before you fly.

Quoting DrP (Reply 14):
Much better explanation from Avro85 - thanks

You're welcome  Wink

Chris
 
olympicbis
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:32 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting DrP (Reply 16):
Pretty much all LCC pilot's are trained in LVP's (Low Visibility Procedures)

Far from putting any blame on the pilots here. They do what they can with what they have. Such fog is common occurence in this season of the year. Airports like CRL spent more money trying to grease Ryanair than upgrading their hardware in order to face such conditions. Brussels Zaventem , 45 kms away, had no disruptions at all in the meantime. Again, you get what you pay for...
 
A350
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:01 am

@Avro85: Thanks a lot!  idea 

A350
 
adriaticflight
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:43 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:57 am

Interesting post. Last week my friend was flying FR from Stansted to Bydgoszcz in Poland and the aircraft was diverted to Gdansk due to fog. The poor girl had to make her way home from Gdansk it was not fun for her. But i am a FR fan, so i forgive them  Smile
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7205
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:01 pm

We almost had to divert to XRY on my flight from HHN to GRO last year. We left an hour late out of HHN after being told that the whole Costa Brava was fogged in. Once we were in the air, the FO informed us that they were going to give GRO a shot and if it didn't work out we'd divert to XRY where (believe it or not) FR had a bus waiting for us to drive us up to Barcelona City Center. We did a go around after the first attempt but we made it on our second after about 30 minutes of circling. Unfortunately, the flight from STN who was also in the holding pattern, ended up diverting. Here are a couple of shots that I took, sorry about the bad quality, they were taken before my digital camera and I have a real crap scanner ....

Final approach into Girona
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/alizee340/Scan10009.jpg

Just after our first attempt and circling the airport waiting for our second try.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/alizee340/Scan10012.jpg

Having said that, I really don't think that this would dampen FR's expansion in the least. They seem to be doing very well in dealing with it. Yes, sometimes you have luck and they will take care of you and yes, I'm sure that there will be some incidents where they may not. But for my money, there's no question to me and I'll risk it.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7068
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:41 pm

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 18):
Again, you get what you pay for...

Ryanair get what they pay for...

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 21):
it didn't work out we'd divert to XRY

Jerez to Gerona... jeez... thats hundreds of kms and hours in a coach.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7205
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:47 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 22):
Jerez to Gerona... jeez... thats hundreds of kms and hours in a coach.

12 hours about. I wouldn't have complained because that was my first trip to Spain and I could have seen more of the country. If I were on a business trip, I wouldn't have been upset because I would have not chosen FR and used an airline that can get me directly into BCN. Buyer beware, it's that simple.

Don't like it? Don't fly it. That's why there are different airlines serving different markets. There's a little bit of everything for everyone ...  Smile
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
TheSorcerer
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:35 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 7):
FR is not a "regular" visitor to FRA they might have trouble getting permission to land that late ("slots" shoul dnot be a problem at midnight ... )

Yes but getting a slot to take-off again would have been a problem. I assume that the slots at FRA cost a lot more than at CGN.  Smile

The Sorcerer
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7068
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:25 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 23):
Don't like it? Don't fly it.

I dont.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
drinkstrolley
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:50 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:31 pm

I was thinking the same sort of thing about Flybe yesterday, they had cancellations left, right and centre due to bad vis but is this due to the ILS capabilities of the aircraft as all the affected flights seemed to be on the 146 (CAT 2??? (I don't know for certain so don't hold me to this!)).

Cheers.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7068
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:32 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 23):
12 hours about.

Flying Distance HHN -> GRO = 627 Miles
Flying Distance XRY -> GRO = 539 Miles

Couldn't FR find a closer alternate, like Bergamo - 465 miles
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4306
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:57 pm

I would love to be diverted to CGN, it's only 5 minutes from the place where I live.

But FR really had a lot of flights diverted, and they cancelled even more. There are some pictures of FR jets in CGN on www.aviation-friends-cologne.de

Somehow CGN is the diversion airport of choice for planes from HHN, DUS, BRU and FRA. We got diversions from a lot of airplanes this year.

However, 7 FR planes is something we don't see every day.

Michael
 
HT
Posts: 5857
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:10 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 21):
We almost had to divert to XRY on my flight from HHN to GRO last year.



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 27):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 23):
12 hours about.

Flying Distance HHN -> GRO = 627 Miles
Flying Distance XRY -> GRO = 539 Miles

The Great Circle Mapper lists XRY-GRO as 591 mi.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 27):
Couldn't FR find a closer alternate, like Bergamo - 465 miles

Seeing that the pictures were taken in daylight, we would not have to think about nightly curfews.

Like I have stated earlier, I don´t see a point in diverting to an alternative located approx. 600 miles away while a big number of other airports should have been available in much shorter distance. I really think, the top priority should be to get the plane onto the ground safely (which includes sufficient fuel reserves), but NOT diverting to a "friendly" airport that will charge FR the lowest landing fees.

Among the much closer located alternatives would have been places like MAD, BIO, TLS, VLC, PMI - That ALL of them were fogged in is highly unlikely - no need to go all the way to BGY.

-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12425
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:39 pm

This seems to be a persistant problem for FR and one that causes havoc for the airline as well as it's passangers. It may be cheaper for all parties to update their equipment and require the airports to improve their equipment for bad weather, with FR pay the higher fees to cover it. The costs of diversions, how it screws up a/c utilization, crew time limit issues may be more than the higher costs for better bad weather equipment. They could also not fly to airports that have persistant problems.
If I am correct, Southwest in the USA has high level CAT equipment to allow them to operate at all airports they serve even in very severe weather and they still make money. For FR, changes must be made to keep up with the demands for their service or risk a loss of passangers and business if they persist in creating difficulties for them.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7205
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 27):
Flying Distance HHN -> GRO = 627 Miles
Flying Distance XRY -> GRO = 539 Miles

Couldn't FR find a closer alternate, like Bergamo - 465 miles

It's all in placement of the aircraft. Funny thing that you mentioned BGY though, because we flew there a few days later on our trip. The whole coastline was fogged in as well.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:10 pm

HHN is sited on top of a hill, which frequently fogs in (actually 500 meters away from the airport fence everything is clear again). Last week the ILS was switched off due to work related to the new runway extension (AFAIK, they moved the antennas and had then to recalibrate the system).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
A350
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 27):
Flying Distance HHN -> GRO = 627 Miles
Flying Distance XRY -> GRO = 539 Miles

Why didn't FR just ride HHN -> GRO with a bus instead of an aircraft  bouncy 

A350
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7205
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting A350 (Reply 33):
Why didn't FR just ride HHN -> GRO with a bus instead of an aircraft

STAU aur der A3 ...  Wink
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut