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SQ773
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Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:20 am

Hi,

I have just read this article.

How will it change the airline scenario over the atlantic ?

cheers !

Accord Reached on 'Open Skies'
======================================================================
The U.S. and European Union tentatively agreed Friday to end
restrictions on where airlines can fly to boost competition in the
transatlantic aviation market.
The accord was reached in Washington after two years of talks. The
agreement may take effect as early as October 2006 if all 25 European
transport ministers approve, the U.S. and EU said in a joint
statement. The agreement would let European carriers such as Air
France-KLM Group fly to the U.S. from any European city, and would
remove limits on the number of carriers that can fly between the U.S.
and London's Heathrow Airport, the world's third-busiest. It also
would end restrictions on the types of aircraft that carriers can use
and the prices they can charge
 
N62NA
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:23 am

Well, this certainly is good news, so long as "all 25 European transport ministers approve" of it.
 
HS748
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):
Well, this certainly is good news, so long as "all 25 European transport ministers approve" of it.

Highly unlikely that they won't. The EU negotiating team works on behalf of the 25 member States, so they would be highly unlikely to agree a deal that couldn't be ratified.
 
dallasnewark
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:47 am

This agreement is a lot better in theory than in reality.
Wii we see flights such as LHR-JFK-ATL for example by BA or LHR-EWR-IAH by Virging? Likely not. But it sounds great in theory
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drerx7
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 3):
This agreement is a lot better in theory than in reality.
Wii we see flights such as LHR-JFK-ATL for example by BA or LHR-EWR-IAH by Virging? Likely not. But it sounds great in theory

That is possible right now. BA runs IAH-ORD-LHR in addition to their other 2 Gatwick flights from IAH.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
monkeyboi
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:19 am

But BA can not carry domestic traffic IAH-ORD-IAH, only thru traffic originating at LHR or IAH and continuing thru to the final destination.
 
HS748
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 3):
Wii we see flights such as LHR-JFK-ATL for example by BA or LHR-EWR-IAH by Virging? Likely not. But it sounds great in theory

No, because I think you've misunderstood the agreement. My understanding is that US airlines will be allowed 5th freedom rights beyond (not within) the 25 EU countries and EU airlines will be allowed 5th freedom rights beyond (not within) the USA.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:31 am

This will be the biggest thing to hit the airlines since deregulation. It will result in more competition to more cities using smaller planes.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
HS748
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
This will be the biggest thing to hit the airlines since deregulation. It will result in more competition to more cities using smaller planes.

Will it? Give three examples of airlines that will take advantage of this, and on what routes.
 
ANother
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:32 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
This will be the biggest thing to hit the airlines since deregulation

Actually I don't think so. US carriers have many 5th freedom rights (i.e. from all 15 countries that already are open skies) and I don't think any are used by US carriers with their own 'metal'. 5th freedoms for the EU carriers? To where? IB shut down their MIA hub, because they couldn't make use of the rights that they had.

Does anyone actually think that any EU airline will begin flights from congested W. European hubs (outside their own country) to the US? Well, only on a code-share basis - maybe. Maybe FR and EZ, they seem to be the only EU carriers who have moved beyond their countries borders.

It seems to me that the EU negotiators have given up the 'crown jewels' of unlimited access to Heathrow for ... What? Fifth freedom rights, which are unusable? Relaxation of US 'Control' (not ownership) rules? Big deal!

IMHO - this is not a done deal, and the EC may find that there is considerable push-back, because there is nothing in it for EU airlines
 
ahdharia
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:40 pm

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
It also
would end restrictions on the types of aircraft that carriers can use
and the prices they can charge

What do they mean by restrictions on types of aircraft? I didnt realize there were restrictions and what kind were there?
 
COSPN
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:52 pm

Hope we will see CO at LHR soon  Smile
 
ANother
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 10):
What do they mean by restrictions on types of aircraft?

Some old (i.e. ancient) air services agreements set out the frequency and aircraft types the airlines were permitted to operate. For example, in the 1980s Canadian Pacific was allowed (under the terms of the Canada - Australia ASA) to operate 3 weekly DC8s to Australia. When they wanted to upgrade the equipment to B747 - they were allowed to, but couldn't sell any more seats than on their DC8s.

I would doubt that many ASAs, and in particular any signed in the last 20 years, have any of these restrictions. But some of the older ones that haven't been updated probably still do.
 
panamair
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:58 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
Does anyone actually think that any EU airline will begin flights from congested W. European hubs (outside their own country) to the US? Well, only on a code-share basis - maybe. Maybe FR and EZ, they seem to be the only EU carriers who have moved beyond their countries borders.

This agreement to treat the entire EU area as one "Zone" or "Country" will help speed up consolidation in the EU airline industry. BA could conceivably buy IB and not have to worry about losing IB's rights to the US from MAD/BCN, etc. For existing airline groups such as AF-KL and LH-LX, it will mean more efficient operations as an AF a/c can easily fly from AMS to the U.S. and a KL a/c from CDG, thereby allowing better utilization of aircraft....
 
CV747
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 13):
This agreement to treat the entire EU area as one "Zone" or "Country" will help speed up consolidation in the EU airline industry. BA could conceivably buy IB and not have to worry about losing IB's rights to the US from MAD/BCN, etc. For existing airline groups such as AF-KL and LH-LX, it will mean more efficient operations as an AF a/c can easily fly from AMS to the U.S. and a KL a/c from CDG, thereby allowing better utilization of aircraft....

Little correction: LH-LX -> Switzerland is not part of the European Union. Therefor is LX, ZRH, BSL or BVA not part of this agreement.
 
panamair
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting CV747 (Reply 14):
Little correction: LH-LX -> Switzerland is not part of the European Union. Therefor is LX, ZRH, BSL or BVA not part of this agreement.

Oops, my bad; and I SHOULD know...am sitting here in ZRH now... ashamed 
 
whitehatter
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:51 pm

Expect the loudest screams to come from Richard Branson. He's vehemently opposed it for years, and any opening up of LHR will be like a red rag to his bull.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 11):
Hope we will see CO at LHR soon

Why?

Their policy is to intercept travellers outside of LHR. CO may want LHR-EWR but nothing much beyond a few flights. Certainly no major move away from their existing operations at regionals and LGW. The atlantic is already saturated and they are grabbing connecting passengers at point of origin rather than on feeders.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:15 am

As i mentioned earlier, LHR will be big . . . but the biggest result of this change will probably be the death of smaller European carriers over the Atlantic. For Alitalia, SAS, Swiss, Olympic, SN (or whatever is flying to Brussels now) this is very, very bad.

This has the potential to catapult BA, AF/KLM, VS, and LH as the only European carriers across the Atlantic. I never believed predictions that Europe would have only three large airlines . . . now i do!

PJ
 
JoFMO
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:20 am

Switzerland is not part of the EU. So the agreement doesn't include them. But Switzerland has completely adopted the EU single sky policy. Aviatiowise they are part of the EU. So I beliefe that they will adopt the EU/US open sky policy when it comes into effect next year.
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:26 am

It could mean some of the following:

BMI Baby flights with Tiny fares to the US from LHR
UA Flights to Dubai via London
BA flights to Mexico City via JFK
Virgin Flights to Hawaii and Tahiti from London
AF Flights from AMS to SEA
NW from DFW to LHR
LH corporate jet from BRU / LCY to Washington Reagan
DL from ATL to Baghdad via Paphos

Dublin to Bangor, ME to Nassau with Ryanair

or finally...

Hollywood to Bollywood via EuroDisney with SWA.




Maybe now Bermuda 2 is history the rules governing UK flights to Bermuda will be reviewed
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
COSPN
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:56 am

LHR is the prefered Airport for Americans to Connect..Beyond Worldwide British Citizens like LGW for Parking / Roads ect..You are Right WhiteHatter Just 2 Flights would do one from EWR and IAH to Connect Biz Pax ect.. LGW will stay..as well as the rest of the UK/ Ireland "regional airports"
 
burnsie28
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
Actually I don't think so. US carriers have many 5th freedom rights (i.e. from all 15 countries that already are open skies) and I don't think any are used by US carriers with their own 'metal'.

You mean like NW and UA at NRT with their own metal, NW i know takes full advantage of those 5th freedom rights.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 19):
BMI Baby flights with Tiny fares to the US from LHR
UA Flights to Dubai via London
BA flights to Mexico City via JFK
Virgin Flights to Hawaii and Tahiti from London
AF Flights from AMS to SEA
NW from DFW to LHR
LH corporate jet from BRU / LCY to Washington Reagan
DL from ATL to Baghdad via Paphos

Dublin to Bangor, ME to Nassau with Ryanair

You mean NW from DTW and not Dallas/Ft. Worth
NW already runs AMS-SEA
DL to ORBS, doubtful, but NW has announced it will serve baghdad when things settle down, albeit DTW-AMS-ORBS
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:44 am

Does this resolve the AA and BA partnership issues for flights across the pond?
 
ual777
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:51 am

Remember this is stil subject to approval. UA, AA, BA, VS, CO, DL, and NW are going to scream bloody murder, as will their pilots and FAs. I doubt that Congress will pass it. Furthermore, its not fair that CO, DL, and NW should be able to serve LHR. IF they do get those rights(and slots at times other than 2:45am), the government should reimburse UA and AA for what they paid for their LHR slots adjusted for inflation.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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drerx7
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 23):
the government should reimburse UA and AA for what they paid for their LHR slots adjusted for inflation.

How do you figure that? When you buy a car and the next day its in the paper with rebates--you can't go back and get some money after the deal is done.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
Cadet57
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 24):
When you buy a car and the next day its in the paper with rebates--you can't go back and get some money after the deal is done.

Actually I beleive you can. Friend of mine, purchased a new chevy one week, next monday, tv ad had 5k rebates on chevy's, went to dealer, got difference of $$ lost, and paid off his loan 6 months early.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
ANother
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 23):
I doubt that Congress will pass it.

This won't go to Congress. The administrative branch (i.e. DOT and State) have the authority to reach ASAs. As well Congress has supported DOTs efforts to secure open skies agreements with other countries and there is only one small difference here (except for Scandinavia, of course) - the Community Air Carrier clause.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 16):
Expect the loudest screams to come from Richard Branson. He's vehemently opposed it for years, and any opening up of LHR will be like a red rag to his bull.

Branson is in a difficult place. He has limited slots at LHR, big big planes to fill (esp after the A380 arrives) and he is about to get slammed by a ton of smaller carriers coming in. On top of that he is running A346s which means his fuel bill is going to be painful for a bit.
 
patroni
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
Actually I don't think so. US carriers have many 5th freedom rights (i.e. from all 15 countries that already are open skies) and I don't think any are used by US carriers with their own 'metal'.

DL operates with their own aircraft from Paris to India, so does NW ex AMS. In the past, these fifth freedom rights were also heavily used by PA and TW.
 
dhefty
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:36 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
Branson is in a difficult place. He has limited slots at LHR, big big planes to fill (esp after the A380 arrives) and he is about to get slammed by a ton of smaller carriers coming in. On top of that he is running A346s which means his fuel bill is going to be painful for a bit.

This could be subject of a whole new thread. VS is an interesting company with it's entire future based on long-haul, but without much feeder traffic. It seems to me that they are most vulnerable to increased city-pair competition.
 
LawnDart
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 3):
This agreement is a lot better in theory than in reality. Will we see flights such as LHR-JFK-ATL for example by BA or LHR-EWR-IAH by Virgin? Likely not.

Just like you won't see flights by AA from LHR to GLA...it's not allowed. You will, however, see VS fly to IAH via EWR on CO codeshare, and AA fly LHR-GLA on a BA codeshare.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
This will be the biggest thing to hit the airlines since deregulation. It will result in more competition to more cities using smaller planes.

Many countries involved already had open skies with the U.S. - keep in mind that with the exception of a few 757 flights most flights across the Atlantic are widebody, and the smallest widebody is about 200 seats...so you need either a city pair that generates ~200 passengers per day each way (few) or a hub at one end or the other. You may see an increase in the number of flights, but I'm not so sure it's going to be astronomical.

Quoting CV747 (Reply 14):
Little correction: LH-LX -> Switzerland is not part of the European Union. Therefor is LX, ZRH, BSL or BVA not part of this agreement.

Question - since the airport at BSL is actually in France, could that mean it's part of the Open Skies agreement?

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 17):
As i mentioned earlier, LHR will be big . . .

Something that has always had me shaking my head is that new airlines have started service to LHR over the years (Emirates, for example), while most major U.S. carriers have been locked out by the restrictive agreement between the U.S. and the U.K. Yes, LHR will be big...so long as the carriers wanting to start service there can find a slot...and if you want to hear screaming, wait until the authorities start telling BA and AA they have to give up slots to other carriers...

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 17):
This has the potential to catapult BA, AF/KLM, VS, and LH as the only European carriers across the Atlantic.

I think consolidation in Europe will be the real reason the above mentioned airlines will be the only European airlines flying across the Atlantic before too long...LX is already "LH" (or will be soon...), etc. And as is noted elsewhere in this thread, VS will soon face increased competition.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
On top of that he is running A346s which means his fuel bill is going to be painful for a bit.

Aren't the A346s relatively efficient?
 
Joost
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
It seems to me that the EU negotiators have given up the 'crown jewels' of unlimited access to Heathrow for ... What?

Well, the Heathrow access was a crown jewel for the UK government, not for the EU negotiators. Also the European Commission considered Bermuda II to be illegal. This is a result of a transition from 25 different states to one entity, aviation-wise. The EU commission wanted to get rid of this too.

(note: everywhere I write "the EU", I mean "the airspace of the EU", unless indicated otherwise)

Actually, something important did happen:

1. The US agreed to see the EU as one country, instead of 25 different ones. The US also agreed to negotiate with one entity, instead of 25.

2. The member states of the EU agreed to see the EU as of one country, and agreed to give negotiation power to one commission.

This implies that, for example, for a virtual UA flight JFK-AMS-FRA, the AMS-FRA leg now does not count as a 5th-freedom flight, but as a 8th freedom (cabotage) flight and so making an end to this discussions.

It also means that European carriers now have way more growth opportunities than they had before, combined with the deregulation that happened the last 10 years.

It means that carriers from smaller countries can expand to a multi-hub system and entering new markets, something they were not able to do before. All legacy carriers of the USA operate a multiple-hub system, covering large markets and having profits of economies of scale.

Carriers like KLM, Austrian, SNBA, Aer Lingus, CSA, etc, etc, have never been able to open multiple hubs as their home countries are just too small. Now, those carriers can expand, setting up multiple hubs in Europe.

This will also mean that the smaller carriers (SN, OS, SK, LO, etc) will suffer even more, as financial powerhouses like BA, AF and LH can 'invade' their hubs and start operations. I would not be surprised for example, if AF would use this to expand services at BRU. First by codesharing on DL-flights, maybe even with flights on their own metal to JFK and ATL.

Of course, there are more markets than just the US. However, they are of way less importance. Almost every European country is linked to New York, only a few are linked to Asia. We should watch for other EU-open skies treaties (Australia and Russia are in negotiation phase right now); when China, India and UAE will have a comparable treaty, the impact of this will be even greater.
 
coa747
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:32 am

Virgin is the Pan Am of the 21st century. Lack of any substantial domestic network is what did in Pan Am and could also be Virgin's demise. Not saying it could or would happen any time soon but Pan Am had a fleet full of 747's and found out late in the game after deregulation that it was flying around with a lot of empty seats. Virgin depends on the London market to generate its traffic. It doesn't really have much of a hub there compared to BA. Now they are going to have to try to fill A380's. Good luck to them.
 
Joost
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:06 am

For Virgin and BMI, the best solution would probably be to merge both companies, BMI for it's European feeder network, Virgin for it's long-haul network.

Virgin has it's eye on BMI for a longer time, as they openly admitted a couple of times. Considering that BMI does not seem to have a clear direction at this very moment, a merger could do them very good too. With an open LHR, my opinion is that ATI issues are less important.
 
ANother
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 30):
Question - since the airport at BSL is actually in France, could that mean it's part of the Open Skies agreement?

Answer - the simple answer is no, but the airport at Mulhouse and Freiburg would be. In any case it is irrelevant since Switzerland has an open sky agreement with the US (unlimited 5ths to US carriers from CH to any EU country). This is the same for the other ex-Efta countries - Iceland and Norway.

Quoting Joost (Reply 31):
1. The US agreed to see the EU as one country, instead of 25 different ones. The US also agreed to negotiate with one entity, instead of 25.

There isn't much hard evidence on what happened in the negotiations yet, but in the press release John Bierly (US State department) said that the US continued to view the EU as 25 sovereign states - which is why they were not prepared to consider intra-EU as a domestic market. The US position of negotiating with one entity for Multiple countries does have precedence - Scandinavia.

Quoting Joost (Reply 31):
Well, the Heathrow access was a crown jewel for the UK government, not for the EU negotiator.

This may be true, but IMHO the EC has blown it. There they were sitting at the table holding something the other side wanted very much, and at the end of the day what did they get in return? Something the US side had already conceded. Even if they wanted the same thing - they blew it.
 
CXA330300
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 17):
For Alitalia, SAS, Swiss, Olympic, SN (or whatever is flying to Brussels now) this is very, very bad.

SN actually doesn't do Transatlantic.......
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
ZRH
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting CV747 (Reply 14):
Little correction: LH-LX -> Switzerland is not part of the European Union. Therefore is LX, ZRH, BSL or BVA not part of this agreement.

Switzerland is not member of the EU but in aviation they have an agreement with the EU that Switzerland is treated like an EU country and furthermore Switzerland has an open skies agreement with the US since many, many years. So ZRH and GVA are already part of open sky with the US.

[Edited 2005-11-22 22:41:04]

[Edited 2005-11-22 22:42:44]
 
Joost
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 34):
There isn't much hard evidence on what happened in the negotiations yet, but in the press release John Bierly (US State department) said that the US continued to view the EU as 25 sovereign states - which is why they were not prepared to consider intra-EU as a domestic market

Well, even if they do not consider the EU as a domestic market, by making the deal the way that US carriers only have 5th freedom rights beyond the EU member states, it pretty much comes down to the same.

Quoting ANother (Reply 34):
This may be true, but IMHO the EC has blown it. There they were sitting at the table holding something the other side wanted very much, and at the end of the day what did they get in return? Something the US side had already conceded. Even if they wanted the same thing - they blew it.

I understand your point, but I do not see what else they could have requested. For what I see about the deal, it seems to be a very honest agreement. What could the EU request more? Domestic EU flights? Only if the US would have got intra-EU flights. So far, it is pretty on par.
 
BG777300ER
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
and the prices they can charge

I don't know if that's good or bad....
Koi mi sra v gashtite?
 
LHMark
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:07 am

This sets the stage for LH to grow into a longhaul monster.

Watch for them to move into Poland, Austria, and the Czech Republic, offering US longhauls while LOT, Austrian, and CSA marginalize into larger versions of SN Brussels.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
wdleiser
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:07 am

What exactly is cabotage?

What is the definition of 5th freedom rights and 8th freedom rights?

Sorry to be an ignoramous.



Also, I don't think it really matters that LHR could be opened up as the only slots available are slots that are in the middle of the night......... hence the reason why they are available.
 
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STT757
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RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 16):
Their policy is to intercept travellers outside of LHR. CO may want LHR-EWR but nothing much beyond a few flights

A few years ago during one of the other open skies meetings CO officially stated they wanted 10 LHR flights, 6 from EWR, 3 from IAH and one from CLE.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Joost
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 40):
What exactly is cabotage?

What is the definition of 5th freedom rights and 8th freedom rights?

For the sake of completion, there are a total of 8 "freedom rights."

1st.
The right to overfly a country.

2nd.
The right to make a non-economical (technical) stop in a country, for emergency purposes, refueling or crew changes.

These 2 make it possible to overfly a country.

3rd.
The right to sell tickets from your home country to another country.

4th.
The right to sell tickets from another country to your home country.

These 2 make commercial civil aviation work.

Now the more interesting ones:

5th.
The right to sell tickets from another country (not your home country) to a 3rd country, when the flight orginates or ends in your own country.

For example, NW flying DTW-AMS-BOM, the right to sell tickets on the AMS-BOM sector is a 5th freedom right.

6th.
The right to sell tickets from country A to country B via your home country. Basically a combination of the 3rd and 4th freedom, and commonly practiced, for example KL TXL-AMS-JFK.

Basically not very special, it hapens everywhere. When you get 3rd and 4th freedom rights from both countries, there is not too much to stop you from selling these tickets. Only example I can think of right that is not allowed is selling tickets from the USA to Iran. (try to book this on a European carrier).

7th.
The right to sell tickets from country A to country B without touching down in your home country.
For example, Ryanair (Irish) flying HHN-ARN.

8th. (=cabotage)
The right to sell domestic tickets in a country that is not yours.

Now there are still some variances, not described officially, but in practice:
- cabotage in 5th freedom style (for example, BA flies LHR-ORD-IAH, for selling tickets ORD-IAH, that is not allowed)
- cabotage in 6th freedom style (for example, AC selling tickets JFK-YYZ-SEA, they are not allowed to do this)
- cabotage in 7th freedom style (for example, Ryanair flying STN-PIK)

Hope this helps!
 
blrsea
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:56 am

Joost, thanks. That was very informative!!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 42):
Only example I can think of right that is not allowed is selling tickets from the USA to Iran.

or USA to Cuba via Mexico or one of the Caribbean islands - cannot be sold as a single ticket - pax must buy two separate tickets to get around the rules.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 19):
Hollywood to Bollywood via EuroDisney with SWA.

Ssssh! This wasn't supposed to be released yet....  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 37):
US carriers only have 5th freedom rights beyond the EU member states,

Joost, I'm not so sure. From Beirly's remarks US carriers get full 5ths within the EU, not just beyond. He commented that since the EU has 25 seats at ICAO, and the US had only one - the US would consider intra-EU as international transport, not domestic. I can't find a transcript of that press conference anymore, but it was one of the answers that he provided stated this clearly.
 
wdleiser
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:21 am

Thanks Joost, now I understand all the freedoms now
 
Joost
Posts: 1844
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!

Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:25 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 46):
Joost, I'm not so sure. From Beirly's remarks US carriers get full 5ths within the EU, not just beyond. He commented that since the EU has 25 seats at ICAO, and the US had only one - the US would consider intra-EU as international transport, not domestic.

Hmm, strange, as the article I read about it clearly indicated that it was only 5th freedom beyond EU:

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-11-18_20-59-05_n18126622_newsml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4451440.stm

Otherwise, If Reuters is wrong, or I interpreted it wrong, I totally agree with you.

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