dallasnewark
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Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:13 am

It seems like CO is in dire need of widebody aircrafts, they fly 757's from EWR to Europe, just pulled the plug on the IAH-OGG mainly because they need that 764.

Why don't they acquire more widebodies? They are doing pretty well financially, and it will allow them to open up even more routes
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drerx7
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Thread starter):
Why don't they acquire more widebodies? They are doing pretty well financially, and it will allow them to open up even more routes

They are doing ok financially--not well enough to be buying widebodies. Many groups had to take concessions for them to secure the 787s. If I'm not mistaken they have 1 or 2 777s coming online down the line and then of course there is the 787 order. I've always wished they would have picked up 763s for the interim--but many people in the loop listed why they wouldn't do that.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
N1120A
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Thread starter):
It seems like CO is in dire need of widebody aircrafts, they fly 757's from EWR to Europe,

Those routes from EWR cannot support more than a 757. The ones that can recieve them as a supplement to widebody frequencies (MAN for example)

Quoting Dallasnewark (Thread starter):
Why don't they acquire more widebodies?

They have ordered 10 787s along with a few more 777s.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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mbm3
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:47 am

As much as I think CO wants to obtain more widebodies, and perhaps even needs more widebodies, I do not think it makes good business sense to add to the debt burden. As has been stated, serious concessions were needed to order the 787s, 777s and enable the swap with ATA. Even with favorable lease rates, I think they should wait to order anything new. Now if they got an opportunity to obtain a good deal on "pre-owned""gently used" 762ERs or 764ERs then I think it might be hard to pass up...
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
jumbojettim
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:02 am

CO did pull the plug on IAH-OGG, but shifted it to LAX-OGG using a 757, allowing them to use the 767 on an international route.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Thread starter):
It seems like CO is in dire need of widebody aircrafts, they fly 757's from EWR to Europe

the point being the 752 is ideal for opening up thin or new routes over the pond. Until passenger or cargo volumes dictate larger aircraft they are ideal for starting in locations which might not fill anything larger, or offering frequency.

Quoting Dallasnewark (Thread starter):
They are doing pretty well financially

no they are not, which is why a conservative approach to fleet purchasing and using existing aircraft to the maximum potential is a smart move. They may not be bleeding cash like DL or NW have been, but CO isn't in a high profit situation where they can afford to throw cash around.

Slow and steady is the best way to ensure CO doesn't end up in a financial hole.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
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STT757
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:18 am

The have the following widebodies on order:

Firm Orders;

2 777-200ER, 10 787-800

Options;

1 777-200ER, 5 787-800
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
HunUtazo
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:18 pm

the have all that they need,











soon enough
dude
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:49 pm

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 7):
the have all that they need,











soon enough

 white 

-Dave
-Dave
 
HunUtazo
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 8):

-Dave

 shhh 
dude
 
ikramerica
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:11 am

They used that 764 from LAX-EWR on Tuesday, on the "TLV" flight. Hopefully the shift of the 764 of IAH-OGG will be used to return some widebody service to LAX for the winter.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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STT757
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
They used that 764 from LAX-EWR on Tuesday, on the "TLV" flight. Hopefully the shift of the 764 of IAH-OGG will be used to return some widebody service to LAX for the winter.

I think the 757-300 with the larger First Class cabin would be a better choice, almost the same seating capacity as the 767-400.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
airxliban
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
They used that 764 from LAX-EWR on Tuesday, on the "TLV" flight. Hopefully the shift of the 764 of IAH-OGG will be used to return some widebody service to LAX for the winter.

Interesting to see where they are going to redeploy that 764 to. They could use it - afterall their 777s are utilised at almost 100%.

The two 777s that they have on order are probably going to go straight to PVG when they get it. Moscow and CGN - what about those, maybe that is where the 764 is going?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
rdwootty
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:01 am

Just a note that a 757 carries more Y pax than a 767 and on the thin routes that's the clients you get!! They certainly do not need First/Business/Economy Just back of bus and front of bus and hold tight ...seriously in the past would you have believe that in 2005 clients would be happy to fly in a narrow body with no IFE to speak of???yet they do because they can from their local airport and connect to humugous numbers of US cities... Good for CO and I hope they will think of the IFE and perhaps take a couple of rows out so they can keep those clients they have
 
star_world
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:45 pm

Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 13):
Just a note that a 757 carries more Y pax than a 767 and on the thin routes that's the clients you get!! They certainly do not need First/Business/Economy Just back of bus and front of bus and hold tight

That was quite a confusing message... but it's worth pointing out that CO only has 2 classes on all of their international flights - economy and BusinessFirst (or F on the shorthaul intl routes). Regardless of the a/c type, there is no 3rd product available.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 13):
Good for CO and I hope they will think of the IFE and perhaps take a couple of rows out so they can keep those clients they have

757s won't be getting PTVs in Y any time soon. My guess is that when the 787s come online, they may put new Y seats in the 777s and 767s as well with bigger screens and AVOD, then transfer those old seats to the 757 fleet. But until that time, the 757s will get AVOD in BF and add 1/2 row of Y. No yanking out seats, either.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:32 am

Is AVOD really that hot?

The AVOD in my KLM A330 Y seat was fine ... until the guy in front of me reclined his seat so far that the tilt of the little AVOD unit couldn't compensate. Then my picture was gone. The FA said to recline my own seat and I would be able to see it again. Well, no, I couldn't. Apparently I'm too tall, and I'm only 5'11".

A bunch of midgets must have designed KLM's AVOD.
 
Lemurs
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:43 am

AVOD will be much nicer in the 787/350 generation. No networking equipment (all wireless) means they'll be able to make the screens larger, plus screens are getting thinner all the time, which means you'll get more tilt. I think the next-gen AVOD designs will finally start living up to the concepts people have for them.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
ScotspanGSM
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:49 am

Does anybody know why CO changed the Daily GLA-EWR from B767-400/200 to a B757-200. I have information from BAA that that route is the most successful transatlantic route outside London in the uk and seems a strange thing to do ? Any reasons out there ?????????
 
Lemurs
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting ScotspanGSM (Reply 18):
Does anybody know why CO changed the Daily GLA-EWR from B767-400/200 to a B757-200. I have information from BAA that that route is the most successful transatlantic route outside London in the uk and seems a strange thing to do ? Any reasons out there ?????????

This is normal for the winter months, apparently. It will go back to 767 service in the spring/summer when demand goes up for that route. CO works pretty hard to match seats to demand.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
ScotspanGSM
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:02 am

Hi lemurs,

That normally happens during the winter but the 757 flew right throught the summer which has never happened, always changed to a DC10, and now the B764, They had the B762 last winter and changed to B752 for the summer which is strange.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting ScotspanGSM (Reply 18):
I have information from BAA that that route is the most successful transatlantic route outside London in the uk

I'm not sure what "successful" means; but, in terms of numbers of passengers, GLA-EWR is doing ok at 12,721 pax for September. Many non-London routes are larger, however; examples include GLA to Toronto and Sanford as well as MAN to Chicago, Newark, Sanford, Toronto, and Vancouver and BHX to Newark.

Figures are from the British CAA monthly report.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 12):

Interesting to see where they are going to redeploy that 764 to. They could use it - afterall their 777s are utilised at almost 100%.

The two 777s that they have on order are probably going to go straight to PVG when they get it. Moscow and CGN - what about those, maybe that is where the 764 is going?

The 764 will be used on the EWR-MAD route for most of the summer season....CO is moving some aircraft around, with 777s flying to Bejing and Dehli, more 764s are needed for EWR-European routes. The two 777s on order are indeed intended for the Shanghai route.

Quoting ScotspanGSM (Reply 18):
Does anybody know why CO changed the Daily GLA-EWR from B767-400/200 to a B757-200. I have information from BAA that that route is the most successful transatlantic route outside London in the uk and seems a strange thing to do ? Any reasons out there ?????????

Its a seaonal thing - it will be interesting to see if EWR-GLA and EWR-EDI (which has been seeing some 762 service lately) will get 767 service this summer, or will there be a frequency increase with more 757 flights? Too soon to tell, and dont rely on the advance on-line CO schedule, it is not complete at this time.

Re the 757 and AVOD - the BF cabin is getting a new IFE system including AVOD. The bonus is that with the new IFE system, CO can add 3 additional coach seats to the 752 since the large cabinet that currently holds the IFE equipment (the cabinet by door 2L) can be removed. The new system is much more compact. Rumors are going around that AVOD will be added to the BF cabins of the 767 and 777 in the medium-term future.

And, as for more widebody aircraft, two 772ERS are on firm order, ten 787-8s are on firm order (although the Boeing website still states that only 5 are definite, dont know why) and there is one option for a 772ER floating around. There are strong rumors around claiming that when CO ordered the two additional 772ERS, a side-letter was entered into between Boeing and CO covering an additional three 772ERS (for a total of five)......this is not a definite option as CO did not make any payments to Boeing concerning these three aircraft, Boeing is simply holding three delivery positions for three additional 772ERs for CO for a finite period of time (most think a decision must be made by the 1st quarter of 2006) and the price and terms have been agreed to for the additional aircraft. CO will go forward with the additional aircraft if finances allow - they were waiting to see how the results of the 3rd quarter (now known, there was a profit), 4th quarter and year end of 2005 come out. These are rumors from very well placed sources.

CO is doing OK, but like all US carriers, has serious financial challenges to contend with, including the price of fuel.....getting financing for new aircraft can be difficult and the 777s are expensive, thus CO is taking a conservative approach.
 
slider
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 1):
Many groups had to take concessions for them to secure the 787s.

Not entirely accurate- yes, the timing was largely coincidental, but Boeing also came to CO about moving TZ's 753s and had spots available in delivery for AA's deferred 738s, both of which CO was solicited by Boeing for. ALl we needed was backstop financing, and then the brunt of that order, I think, was financed through RBS.

The concessions averted a cash crunch, which would have tipped the threshholds for many debt covenants, which would haev in turn prevented CO from buying ANY airplanes. So indirectly, you're accurate in a way, but given that we can get these birds and start making money with them immediately without having to make payments, that's a deal too good to turn down.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 5):
Slow and steady is the best way to ensure CO doesn't end up in a financial hole.

Exactly- steady as she goes.

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 7):
the have all that they need,











soon enough

OK, cut the crap- this is the 3rd or 4th implication you've made without substantiating anything. What's your take?
 
HunUtazo
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RE: Chances Of CO Buying More Wide Bodies

Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:26 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 23):
What's your take?

....patience, dear boy










patience.....




 twocents 
dude