EZEIZA
Topic Author
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:50 pm

LAN Argentina will begin on Dec. 1st its daily service between EZE and MIA with a 767. On their webpage they offer a promotional fare of 915 US$. By the way, will they be having LV regs on these flights?

I know this topinc has been brought up in the past but as the date approaches I wanted to post  Smile

regards
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:36 pm

Yes, the topic has been discussed before, but it is so interesting!

Service to the US will be rather extensive now with the addition of 4M's daily flights to MIA with 70 flights per week from EZE!

AA: 28 weekly flights
EZE-MIA 14x
EZE-JFK 7x
EZE-DFW 7x

UA: 14 weekly flights
EZE-IAD 7x
EZE-ORD 7x

DL: 7 weekly flights
EZE-ATL 7x

CO: 7 weekly flights
EZE-IAH 7x [and ongoing service to EWR]

AR: 7 weekly flights
EZE-MIA 4x
EZE-JFK 3x

4M: 7 weekly flights
EZE-MIA 7x

BTW, where is 4M obtaining the necessary 767-300ER examples to fly this new route? Will they be transferred from LA? Will they be registered with 4M or CC-registered aircraft operated by 4M? 4M must need two examples to operate daily service to MIA.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
BTW, where is 4M obtaining the necessary 767-300ER examples to fly this new route? Will they be transferred from LA? Will they be registered with 4M or CC-registered aircraft operated by 4M? 4M must need two examples to operate daily service to MIA.

As with most LAN operations, I'm pretty sure it will be an LA plane operating with 4M crew. The plane will, for example, operate the daylight SCL-XXX-MIA flight (XXX being CCS/BOG/PUJ depending on the day) and then do the redeye EZE-MIA flight. I believe that's how they are doing it, but I am not sure.
a.
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:48 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
By the way, will they be having LV regs on these flights?

That's a very good question actually. I have just checked Lan.com and got this...

Jueves 01 diciembre 2005
19:00 Santiago (SCL) 20:55 Buenos Aires (EZE) LA481
Avión: Boeing 767

22:15 Buenos Aires (EZE) 05:05 (Viernes) Miami (MIA) 4M4520
Avión: Boeing 767


...and I picked a random return date...

Miércoles 21 diciembre 2005
20:15 Miami (MIA) 06:55 (Jueves) Buenos Aires (EZE) 4M4521
Avión: Boeing 767

Jueves 22 diciembre 2005
08:35 Buenos Aires (EZE) 10:50 Santiago (SCL) LA402
Avión: Boeing 767


In other words, Lan again thinks Argentine laws can be used as toilet paper. They will use CC-registered aircraft, with Chilean pilots, on a Lan Chile flight originating in Santiago de Chile, Buenos Aires being a mere stop-over, although with a codeshare with their fully-owned subsidiary Lan Argentina between EZE and MIA. Some rumours state Lan Chile will be nice enough to do us Argentines a favour, and use Argentine F/As. But again, those are simply rumours.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Aero
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:55 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:13 pm

Argentine F/A´s will be doing the round servive EZE-MIA-EZE.

Good Luck LanArgentina! Vuela!

LAN is conecting MIA with NonStop Flights to

- SCL
- EZE
- LIM
- UIO
- GYE
- BOG
- CCS
- PUJ

A real LatinAmerican Network!

Rgds,
Aero
LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:03 pm

Well we will have to wait and see what takes place,. Especially after the 4M strikes that have taken place!
I mean, where have you heard of an airline where cabin crew have to do ground duties as well?
4M crew are not at all happy!
Let us hope that there is no 'snap' strike on Dec 1. Otherwise the inaugural service to MIA could have some bad publicity!
 
EZEIZA
Topic Author
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:18 pm

Quoting Marambio (Reply 3):
In other words, Lan again thinks Argentine laws can be used as toilet paper. They will use CC-registered aircraft, with Chilean pilots, on a Lan Chile flight originating in Santiago de Chile, Buenos Aires being a mere stop-over, although with a codeshare with their fully-owned subsidiary Lan Argentina between EZE and MIA

As a side note, its funny that they will be CC registered yet the miles that you would get with this flight for LAN Pass can't be used for Oneworld members, only for LAN, since in the webpage it says that LAN Arg is not a member of one world yet they will use One world aircraft. Sounds strange to me, but I could be just confused so I welcome explanations  Smile
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Aisak
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:58 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
As a side note, its funny that they will be CC registered yet the miles that you would get with this flight for LAN Pass can't be used for Oneworld members, only for LAN, since in the webpage it says that LAN Arg is not a member of one world yet they will use One world aircraft

Simple.

If you're a LanPass Member you can earn and reedem kilometers flying The whole Lan group (Chile, Peru, Express, Argentina and Ecuador) and the other 7 members of oneworld (and affiliates) but you will only obtain benefits from oneworld when flying oneworld carriers. EX. If you fly RDU-MIA-EZE on AA & 4M you will not be allowed in MIA OW lounge as your onward connection is not OW. Its operated by a oweworld member (Lan Chile) but your flight does not have a OW code.
But if you take RDU-MIA-EZE-SCL on AA & LA you will be allowed in the MIA and EZE lounges as the MIA-EZE-SCL is both operated and coded by a OW member

Suming up: When you are a member of a OW carrier FF program you can earn and reedem miles:
1st: on the carrier
2nd: on other OneWorld members
3rd: on thrid airlines which ARE NOT oneworld and DO NOT offer oneworld benefits
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting Aisak (Reply 7):
If you fly RDU-MIA-EZE on AA & 4M you will not be allowed in MIA OW lounge as your onward connection is not OW. Its operated by a oweworld member (Lan Chile) but your flight does not have a OW code.

Frankly, this all sounds rather confusing. Why are LA and LP members of oneWorld, while 4M is not? When will 4M and LAN Ecuador become members of oneWorld? Shouldn't all the LAN carriers, LA, LP, 4M and LAN Ecuador be members of oneWorld?

Quoting Marambio (Reply 3):
In other words, Lan again thinks Argentine laws can be used as toilet paper. They will use CC-registered aircraft, with Chilean pilots, on a Lan Chile flight originating in Santiago de Chile, Buenos Aires being a mere stop-over, although with a codeshare with their fully-owned subsidiary Lan Argentina between EZE and MIA. Some rumours state Lan Chile will be nice enough to do us Argentines a favour, and use Argentine F/As. But again, those are simply rumours.

Is there an Argentine law stating national carriers, such as 4M, must operate LV-registered aircraft? Wasn't Southern Winds flying wet-leased 763ER's with N-registrations sometime ago? That did not appear to violate any laws.
 
Aisak
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
Frankly, this all sounds rather confusing. Why are LA and LP members of oneWorld, while 4M is not? When will 4M and LAN Ecuador become members of oneWorld? Shouldn't all the LAN carriers, LA, LP, 4M and LAN Ecuador be members of oneWorld?

I think the same too... But there's no need for them to join. But they know the can't offer OW benefits to passengers nor obtain OW benefits for themselves

The problem comes because all of them are named LAN. Look at LH Miles&More. There are airlines whose FF program is Miles&More and yet they are not part of Star Alliance such as Air One or Air Domolti. Also Kenya Airways is fully integrated into Flying Blue but its passengers won't take advantage of SkyTeam benefits. Song is another good example.
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
Is there an Argentine law stating national carriers, such as 4M, must operate LV-registered aircraft? Wasn't Southern Winds flying wet-leased 763ER's with N-registrations sometime ago? That did not appear to violate any laws.

Again, a good question. The Codigo Aeronautico de la Republica Argentina states all Argentine airline's aircraft must be registered under an Argentine registration, i.e. LV-xxx.

Southern Winds got an excemption from the Argentine authorities because at that time we were under CAT2 status for the USA. Therefore they were not able to fly Argentine-registered aircraft, and had to fly Icelandic, TF-registered 767s. Those were wet-leased from Air Atlanta, but flown by Argentine pilots hired by Air Atlanta on behalf of SW.

Lan Argentina cannot state SW created a precedent. Argentina is now a CAT1 country and all LV- aircraft can fly to the US. The only possibility, is to say Lan Argentina hasn't had time to cope with bureaucratic requests before lauching their EZE-MIA route. They would be able then to fly CC- aircraft while waiting for their LV- plane's authorization to be cleared, for a period of time no longer than 3 months.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
LH526
Crew
Posts: 1961
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2000 2:23 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Marambio (Reply 10):
Again, a good question. The Codigo Aeronautico de la Republica Argentina states all Argentine airline's aircraft must be registered under an Argentine registration, i.e. LV-xxx.

Southern Winds got an excemption from the Argentine authorities because at that time we were under

So, what about ARs F- registered A310 in the 1990s?

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting LH526 (Reply 11):
So, what about ARs F- registered A310 in the 1990s?

The thing is, according to the Codigo Aeronautico, Lan could eventually have a CC-registered aircraft, but it should be exclusively used by Lan Argentina, flown by Argentine pilots, with Argentine crews, taken care of by Argentine technicians, and controlled by Argentine authorities. This CC- aircraft would then be de facto an Argentine, LV- aircraft.

During the mid 1990s, when Aerolineas leased three A310s directly from Airbus, those were France-registered, but they were de facto LV - Argentine pilots, Argentine crews, Argentine technicians, controlled by Argentine authorities. The lessor (AIFS) told Aerolineas they had to put a French registration on the plane, no matter which country's laws the aircraft would later be under. This was meant to make Aerolineas respect all French (European) maintenance regimes and regulations. Bear in mind these A310s were the very first Airbuses AR ever got. The same also happened with Southern Winds, added to the fact they could not fly to the USA because of the CAT2 restrictions.

On the other hand, Lan wants to use in Argentina the same modus operandi they have been using in Peru and Ecuador. They want to fly EZE-MIA with a Chilean aircraft randomly used by all Lan Group airlines (Lan Chile, Lan Peru, Lan Ecuador and Lan Argentina), flown by Chilean pilots, with at least half-Chilean crews, taken care of by Chilean technicians and controlled by Chilean authorities. That plane would be both de jure and de facto Chilean. And that is forbidden and illegal in Argentina.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-11-23 18:59:51]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
RichardJF
Posts: 565
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 7:07 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:07 am

Some marketing person somewhere saw the words LAN (I'm assuming it's Lineas Aeras Nacionales) and had a brainwave...... Latin American Network.... LAN....that makes sense. It must make sense..... surely!
You drop the Chile off the name and you lose that pride of Chileans.
These airlines serve a purpose of projecting your country's name abroad.
Not only that, if your Argentinian you would naturally take umbrage at the Chileans cherry picking AR's best routes. It is at best a self defeating exercise. Can AR fly SCL-MIA or Madrid as of right?
If you have both carriers having unlimited beyond rights you wouldn't need all these subsidiaries anyway?
These airlines should all be back in majority Government ownership
Nobody should assume that majority

Government ownership = bloated bad management
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:35 am

I was looking for MIA next december. LA/4M flights are already abailable, although It amazed me the price, since it's more expensive. Aparently, those flights are starting with pretty good loads.
I hope you'll get PTV equiped 763s.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
BTW, where is 4M obtaining the necessary 767-300ER examples to fly this new route? Will they be transferred from LA? Will they be registered with 4M or CC-registered aircraft operated by 4M? 4M must need two examples to operate daily service to MIA.

Indeed, LAN is already very short of aircraft, specially for SYD-MAD routes.
I'm almost sure that they will be CC registred aircraft

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
it says that LAN Arg is not a member of one world yet they will use One world aircraft.

One world does not have aircraft. Besides, when you fly RG or AM and you get LanPass miles for the agreements, you also can use them in OW. So, you fly SkyTeam metal and trade for OW tkts. There is no "same aircraft same alliance same mile" rule, no contradition, just the way airlines are ruled now, welcome!

Quoting Marambio (Reply 12):
The thing is, according to the Codigo Aeronautico, Lan could eventually have a CC-registered aircraft, but it should be exclusively used by Lan Argentina, flown by Argentine pilots, with Argentine crews, taken care of by Argentine technicians, and controlled by Argentine authorities. This CC- aircraft would then be de facto an Argentine, LV- aircraft

You think that LAN will break the law? it's an idea you have there, no facts. It would be different that in december you could prove they've done wrong. Do you really think they would be that obvious? XL and LP does use full Peruvian/Ecuadorian crews.

Quoting RichardJF (Reply 13):
Some marketing person somewhere saw the words LAN (I'm assuming it's Lineas Aeras Nacionales) and had a brainwave...... Latin American Network.... LAN....that makes sense. It must make sense..... surely!
You drop the Chile off the name and you lose that pride of Chileans.
These airlines serve a purpose of projecting your country's name abroad.
Not only that, if your Argentinian you would naturally take umbrage at the Chileans cherry picking AR's best routes. It is at best a self defeating exercise. Can AR fly SCL-MIA or Madrid as of right?

When founded in 1929, LAN meant "Linea Aerea Nacional". After the unification of the brand in 2004, it started to be after "Latin Airline Network". For me it's a shame to remove the proudly Chile titles from the fuselage, although our lonely star is standing there...
AR is not allowed. They should, don't you think?
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
Service to the US will be rather extensive now with the addition of 4M's daily flights to MIA with 70 flights per week from EZE!

You forgot......

LAX-LIM-SCL-EZE via 763 and 343


KAHALA777
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 15):
LAX-LIM-SCL-EZE via 763 and 343

I was only referring to non-stop flights to US destinations from EZE. So far, they include

JFK
MIA
DFW
IAH
IAD
ATL
ORD

Rather impressive, seven cities nonstop!
 
DETA737
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2000 3:47 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting RichardJF (Reply 13):
These airlines serve a purpose of projecting your country's name abroad.
Not only that, if your Argentinian you would naturally take umbrage at the Chileans cherry picking AR's best routes. It is at best a self defeating exercise. Can AR fly SCL-MIA or Madrid as of right?
If you have both carriers having unlimited beyond rights you wouldn't need all these subsidiaries anyway?

Correct me if I'm wrong but both Chile and Argentina have Open Skies treaties with the United States and I'd assume that the Chilean government would allow AR to fly SCL-MIA, since Argentina is allowing LAN to fly EZE-MIA. However, once they get more aircraft and if they see it's an economically viable route why not try it? Perhaps they could do SCL-LAX instead. Argentinians should be glad there's more competition on the route, prices can go down on flights and bring in more tourists and make trips to the U.S. more affordable.
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 17):
Perhaps they could do SCL-LAX instead.

It has been done in the past with the A340, flying time was in the range of 12 hours 45 - 13 hours 20 from Los Angeles to Santiago. However those were much better times than included VARIG 2 x daily to Los Angeles. Avianca to Mexico City. EVA Airways to Panama City. Korean Airlines 4 x weekly to Sao Paulo as well.

KAHALA777
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 17):
Argentinians should be glad there's more competition on the route, prices can go down on flights and bring in more tourists and make trips to the U.S. more affordable.

I completely agree. I predict the civil aviation code in Argentina will eventually be liberalized to allow shareholders from fellow Mercosur nations controlling equity interests in Argentine carriers AND domestic cabotage rights to Mercosur carriers AND fifth-freedom rights to Mercosur carriers.

[Of course Chile must first become a full-member of Mercosur, not just an associate member. This will also happen, I believe.]

The liberalization will be completely reciprocal, with all the other members offering identical rights to fellow Mercosur carriers.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 14):
You think that LAN will break the law? it's an idea you have there, no facts. It would be different that in december you could prove they've done wrong. Do you really think they would be that obvious? XL and LP does use full Peruvian/Ecuadorian crews.

huh? Uh, yeah? Because the aircrafts are registered in BARBADOS!

You see, if they start flying CC- registered Aircraft, they will break the law. We will see three months after the start of international operations for LAN Argentina.

cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 17):
Argentinians should be glad there's more competition on the route, prices can go down on flights and bring in more tourists and make trips to the U.S. more affordable

You seem not to know that prices are not regulated by the market in Argentina. There are low and high price bands set by the government and that the airlines NEED to maintain those prices in order not to get a fine from the government. Also, add up that there's no thorough competition because LAN is only flying the profitable routes whereas ARSA (AR/AU) flying to 33 destinationes (15-20 non profitable routes), making that unfair competition.
Also, I'm not glad that the competition we have is dirty. If LAN was to enter the country clean, and with a smooth entrance, respecting all rules - then, I would be glad we have it. Since we don't... I'm not. I'm glad that many of us are not glad of having LAN around.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
3201
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:16 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:58 pm

Quoting Aisak (Reply 7):
EX. If you fly RDU-MIA-EZE on AA & 4M you will not be allowed in MIA OW lounge as your onward connection is not OW. Its operated by a oweworld member (Lan Chile) but your flight does not have a OW code.
But if you take RDU-MIA-EZE-SCL on AA & LA you will be allowed in the MIA and EZE lounges as the MIA-EZE-SCL is both operated and coded by a OW member

OK, yeah -- and if you fly LA SCL-MIA in J and transfer to AA MIA-SFO in F, you will not be allowed in the lounge in MIA, because the braindead woman at the desk says "LAN isn't OneWorld," despite the fact that your LAN boarding pass has the oneworld logo on it, and you can produce the AA inflight magazine which lists LAN as a OneWorld carrier with Admirals Club lounge access. Even in the face of all that evidence, she says, "I'm sorry, LAN is not OneWorld, you don't have access permission." Oh, and adding insult to injury, she takes your attractive LAN boarding pass for your connecting flight and gives you an ugly green AA one instead.

Fortunately there are two Admirals Clubs, and you will get into the other one, but it means going back outside security, thus having to go through an extra time. Your neighbors on your connecting flight will appreciate the extra effort, though, since a shower really helps after your 8-hour flight, even in J.

I guess I should complain about it, eh? Help them improve their service, yadi yadi yadi. But why should the burden be on me to waste my time writing a letter, when I won't benefit any from it anyway? I'd rather just rant on a.net.  Smile
7 hours aint long-haul
 
Aisak
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:27 pm

Quoting 3201 (Reply 22):
OK, yeah -- and if you fly LA SCL-MIA in J and transfer to AA MIA-SFO in F, you will not be allowed in the lounge in MIA, because the braindead woman at the desk says "LAN isn't OneWorld,"

Woo.. It seems someone sneaked out of the employee training!!!

Copying-Pasting from Oneworld benefits

"Access is available on the day of departure when your next onward flight is with a one world member airline."

So if you fly anywhere(with "Whatev-air")-MIA-SFO and MIA-SFO is OW ticketed and operated, the OW policy says you're in

You know.... you can always collide with that kind of people
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 20):

Hola Gastón!

Actually, it's worse, the three Bermudan-registered A320s of LAN Perú were placed back of the CC-register last year. Worse still, in spite of their supposed "allocation" to the Peruvian subsidiary, they also operate Chilean domestic and other regional services too, so in spite of their microscopic Peruvian flags on their tails, these aircraft are effectively Chilean.

With regards to the illegitimacy of LAN Argentina, I think it simply boils down to the following: If you tell someone "under no circumstances think of a pink elephant", what's the first thing they are going to do? Similarly, if you tell someone not to break the law in Argentina (which almost everyone does to a varying degree), what as human beings are they most likely to do?

Yes LAN are cynical, and that aspect of them tarnishes what is otherwise a positive image I have of them. However, the main reason they have come to exist in Argentina is a combination of "because they could" and of Argentine incompetence and ineptitude at forcing them to play by the rules. The door was open and no one closed it, that that nothing would have prevented a semi-competent Argentine Government from doing so.

Saludos,

ZXV

[Edited 2005-11-25 14:03:00]
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 24):
However, the main reason they have come to exist in Argentina is a combination of "because they could" and of Argentine incompetence and ineptitude at forcing them to play by the rules. The door was open and no one closed it, that that nothing would have prevented a semi-competent Argentine Government from doing so.

Hola Máximo!

I could not have agreed more with what you say. I never denied the degree of fault that the Argentine Government, but some users tend to praise LAN as a clean company, which is not.

And yes, thank you for correcting me, it was Bermuda, not Barbados.

Nonetheless. In this country, if they use a CC- registered plane with a peruvian flag, they'd be breaking the law too.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Aero
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:55 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:17 pm

Guys:

How will ever Argentina emerge from its current underdeveloped status with this rather protectionist (back to the 70th´s) behavior? - You don´t want face that the world is changing - like or not.

LatinAmerican countries should open the skies and let foreign companies offer flight services in order to improve standards and competition.
Someone here has mentioned it before and i completely agree: Get rid of those stupid regulations such as "investors need to be 49% Argentinean, Peruvians, Brazilian" and companies would save lot of money creating subsidiaries instead of flying themselves.

Get a AR Flight from SCL to LAX, get on LAN from EZE to FRA or fly TAM from EZE to CDG.

You Guys in Argentina don´t like Spanish investors (Marshall), you don´t like Chileans (LAN, Jumbo, Alto Palermo, Ripley, Falabella, etc.), you just don´t want to face competition.

The world will still change....with Or without you!

Bst rgds,
Aero
LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
Guys:

How will ever Argentina emerge from its current underdeveloped status with this rather protectionist (back to the 70th´s) behavior? - You don´t want face that the world is changing - like or not.

LatinAmerican countries should open the skies and let foreign companies offer flight services in order to improve standards and competition.
Someone here has mentioned it before and i completely agree: Get rid of those stupid regulations such as "investors need to be 49% Argentinean, Peruvians, Brazilian" and companies would save lot of money creating subsidiaries instead of flying themselves.

Get a AR Flight from SCL to LAX, get on LAN from EZE to FRA or fly TAM from EZE to CDG.

You Guys in Argentina don´t like Spanish investors (Marshall), you don´t like Chileans (LAN, Jumbo, Alto Palermo, Ripley, Falabella, etc.), you just don´t want to face competition.

The world will still change....with Or without you!

Couldn't agree more with you.
Although I support the statement made by most argentine friends here regarding respecting the law, I STRONGLY believe that there should be a reform of that law in Congress to allow more foreign investment in the sector, especially from fellow MERCOSUR or South American countries.

I hope the law gets changed, I'd love to see what arguments they'll have regarding LAN ops in Argentina. I would love to have LAN come to Venezuela with new A320s, 767s, A340s and give us more options and lower prices in many routes. LAN currently flies MIA-CCS with 767 equipment (3X weekly) and they are usually the cheapest.

Guys the future of Latin American is total integration, in theory should be so easy, we all come from the same background, same religion, same LANGUAGE, very very similiar culture and Brazil speaks portuguese which is understandable with spanish if both speakers make an effort. Open the borders, promote intra-Latin America trade, that's the future!

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
Aero
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:55 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:02 pm

Luis:

Of course, all investors need to respect law, no discussions on that, but at this point, it looks for me than any integration approach or any globalization effort will be turn down (see ALCA summit in Mar del Plata) by any law...and If there is not such a law, then it will be made up.

It´s not a secret that Argentines didn´t want LAN to enter the market, even before LAN announced anything. I did not hear any issues when Aerolineas Argentines landed at SCL with its subsidary Aerolineas del Sur.

However i hope LatinAmerican understands the changes of its attitude sooner than later.

Luis: I spent 10 years of my Life in Venezuela, i can tell VIASA was a great Airline too! - Would love to see more happening there again.

LANVenezuela..wow! -that would be great...Would Chavez agree with it?
LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
How will ever Argentina emerge from its current underdeveloped status with this rather protectionist (back to the 70th´s) behavior? - You don´t want face that the world is changing - like or not.

LatinAmerican countries should open the skies and let foreign companies offer flight services in order to improve standards and competition.

Aero,

With all due respect, you are living in Germany. The standards required by the government are always respected due to a strong presence of the Government's figure in society. You know that Latin America, doesn't have that culture.
The laws here in Argentina were changed "backwards" in your point of view. The disaster made by IBERIA, American Airlines and SEPI in Aerolineas Argentinas/Austral made society, unions in particular, very touchy about airlines. Laws allowed a foreign investors to own 100% of an airline. In 2002, right after Marsans(not Marshall) acquired AR/AU, the laws were changed, allowing only up to a 49% of foreign ownership. The rest, Argentine.
I don't believe in the Open Skies. Look at where Chile -the almighty example- (not that I believe it is) is right now. Only one company operating with a certain chance of living through, LAN. Why would I want open skies so, companies have to scale down costs big time, cut standards and fire people. Companies will shut down, and eventually, there will only be one monopolizing - so, deregulation will just be useless. Deregulation needs to be in order, controlled by the government, so that the transition is smooth. I don't want companies flying like West Caribbean and such, that will do anything to keep operating and risk the standards so that accident's like the ones in Colombia and Venezuela have the entrance door open.

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
Someone here has mentioned it before and i completely agree: Get rid of those stupid regulations such as "investors need to be 49% Argentinean, Peruvians, Brazilian" and companies would save lot of money creating subsidiaries instead of flying themselves

I'm going to mention to Latinamerican cases here, that went (and almost went) kaput because of THIS not being applied - and there was a lot of fuzz going on because of it. VIASA and Aerolineas Argentinas. Two companies, smashed to the ground by SEPI. Emptying the company, and taking away its assets and only leaving debts, unemployment and no airline. Why would I want such rules without effect if this is going to happen. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the biggest anti regulization people, and Marambio can account for it, but Latin America is NOT ready for it, and probably will never be in the Airline business.

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
You Guys in Argentina don´t like Spanish investors (Marshall), you don´t like Chileans (LAN, Jumbo, Alto Palermo, Ripley, Falabella, etc.), you just don´t want to face competition

Oh please... BTW, it's Marsans. We also have Telefonica and we don't complain about it. We don't complain about Marsans either. Just for your ego, I consider Jumbo to be the best supermarket around. Alto Palermo is from IRSA, owned by George Soros. No chilean there. Unicenter, Falabella and Jumbo are all owned by Cencosud, still nobody is complaining about them. Why? They respect the law, some other chilean company doesn't. BTW, Aero, what is Ripley?

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
The world will still change....with Or without you!

Oh, you just had to add that, didn't you? Lovely...

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 27):
I hope the law gets changed, I'd love to see what arguments they'll have regarding LAN ops in Argentina. I would love to have LAN come to Venezuela with new A320s, 767s, A340s and give us more options and lower prices in many routes. LAN currently flies MIA-CCS with 767 equipment (3X weekly) and they are usually the cheapest.

So far almighty and beloved LAN has only brought 737-200s. I don't see the A320s. All the 732s have been patched to death and seem not in very good condition. The say they are in a plane shortage to fly the "social routes", but they are able to find and dedicate 2 767s for EZE-MIA, strange, isn't it. Still not fullfilling agreements, how LAN.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 27):
Guys the future of Latin American is total integration, in theory should be so easy, we all come from the same background, same religion, same LANGUAGE, very very similiar culture and Brazil speaks portuguese which is understandable with spanish if both speakers make an effort. Open the borders, promote intra-Latin America trade, that's the future!

Have you gone crazy, Luis? You are now supporting Chavez? Big grin

Quoting Aero (Reply 28):

Aero, your last post makes almost no sense at all. Even so, I'm gonna answer one remark of yours.

You didn't hear anything about I3 because I3 and Marsans are following everything by the book and doing everything legally. Listo. Ahi la tenes.

Cheers! wave 
Gaston - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):

How will ever Argentina emerge from its current underdeveloped status with this rather protectionist (back to the 70th�s) behavior? - You don�t want face that the world is changing - like or not.

I beg to disagree here. Argentina is currently emerging from its bankrupcy without any international help. Indeed the international situation is helping us, with a huge rise on agricultural and cattle prices (Argentina's most important exports). We are cancelling our debts with the IMF, while not getting new important loans and finding alternatives, like Venezuela and Brazil.

Back in the 1990s, we had one of the world's less-protective legislations. Former Public Development Minister Elias Dromi summed it up quite well those days: "Nada de lo que pertenezca al Estado permanecera en manos del Estado", he said at the Salon Blanco of the Casa Rosada. The Government sold all its assets and all public companies - energy, water, petrol, of course airlines, etc. Our laws allowed any foreign company to own 100% of a local company.

That's why the Sociedad Espanola de Participaciones Industriales, Iberia's mother company, together with American Airlines, bought Aerolineas Argentinas and Austral. Together, they sold all AR planes but one 732, made it withdraw many (European) destinations in favour of a (crappy) codeshare with Iberia, fired thousands of employees, etcaetera ad nauseam.

Aerolineas' almost bankrupcy caused lots of harm to the Argentine society. You could see in almost every car, stickers with the slogan "Todos Somos Aerolineas" and the media gave it a really comprehensive coverage. Like it or not, Aerolineas Argentinas is Argentina's ambassador to the world and the Condor is a symbol of national pride here.

This whole situation cause that, in 2002, the Congress passed a new law. Only 49% foreign-owned, 51% Argentine-owned. And thus far we haven't got any problem - all companies respect it. We have Falabella, Jumbo, Unicenter, Cerveza Schneider, and many other Chilean companies, and they all seem to be alright. Nobody ever claimed they were playing dirty, and thousands of people congregate every weekend at Unicenter for shopping, and drink Schneider beer while having an asado. Please, gentlemen, realize this is not a problem with Chile - the problem here is with LAN Group. If LAN had come here respecting all laws and regulations, I promise I wouldn't be here bitching about them - I'd be on a Lan Argentina flight to, say, San Salvador de Jujuy.

Aero: Please, do not blindly defend Chile and accuse us, Argentines, of being the bad guys. Take a look to Argentina's history in the 1990s, and then we can speak.

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
You Guys in Argentina don�t like Spanish investors (Marshall), you don�t like Chileans (LAN, Jumbo, Alto Palermo, Ripley, Falabella, etc.), you just don�t want to face competition.

I assume you have no examples whatsoever to back up your example, so please refrain from saying things you don't know. If you ever come to Buenos Aires, I will take you to Unicenter on a Saturday afternoon. Oh, and by the way, Falabella is opening a second store here in Buenos Aires!

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
The world will still change....with Or without you!

Thank you for your enlightment.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 27):
I STRONGLY believe that there should be a reform of that law in Congress to allow more foreign investment in the sector, especially from fellow MERCOSUR or South American countries.

Hola Luis. I have no idea about Mercosur's plans, but I suppose that a next step is allowing foreign (other-members) investments just as if there were local. That happens in the EU, which is Mercosur's example.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 27):
I would love to have LAN come to Venezuela with new A320s, 767s, A340s and give us more options and lower prices in many routes.

Well, let me tell you something. Lan Argentina only serves the profitable destinations (they agreed with the Government to serve non-profitable too), with a bunch of really old, really patched Boeing 737-200s, which were phased out by Lan Chile last year. Basically, Lan Argentina does not represent more options, but rather less options, since Aerolineas may be forced to withdraw non-profitable destinations because of Lan's price-war in some routes.

By the way, the A320s should have been here two months ago. Now they are talking about March 2006. However, they can find 2 763s in no time for flying EZE-MIA. Wierd, huh?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 27):

Guys the future of Latin American is total integration, in theory should be so easy, we all come from the same background, same religion, same LANGUAGE, very very similiar culture and Brazil speaks portuguese which is understandable with spanish if both speakers make an effort. Open the borders, promote intra-Latin America trade, that's the future!

Tell that to the Chileans, Luis. Every single South American country is a member of one of the two free trade groups - the CAN or Mercosur. The exception: Chile, which has got a special agreement with the USA. Argentina is really promoting integration now, sponsoring Venezuela's and Mexico's entrance to the Mercosur. And, as far as I know, Chile could really benefit from being a member of the CAN, and even more of Mercosur, of which South America's two biggest markets (Brazil and Argentina) are members. However, if Chile feels like being the region's lonely star, let it be.

Quoting Aero (Reply 28):
(see ALCA summit in Mar del Plata)

He who thinks all Argentines are like the Mar del Plata demonstrators, is stupid. By no means we are like that, but it is true most of us do not agree with ALCA simply because it does not represent any added value to us. ALCA implies free trade and no borders for all industry, manufactured goods. However, agricultural exports would still be taxed because of the USA's deficitarian countryside, which cannot compete against Argentina and Brazil. That is why both Argentina and Brazil (again, regional integration!) are completely against it. We would see ourselves in front of a tsunami of US-made goods (with which we cannot compete), while not being able to sell our main exports to them because they still subsidize their agriculture.

Quoting Aero (Reply 28):

It�s not a secret that Argentines didn�t want LAN to enter the market, even before LAN announced anything. I did not hear any issues when Aerolineas Argentines landed at SCL with its subsidary Aerolineas del Sur.

Because we don't want companies that break our law, dammit! Aerolineas del Sur is respecting all Chilean laws, getting all requests approved by the Chilean DAC, etc. You did not hear any issues when Aerolineas del Sur entered, because there are no issues to comment. And, besides, Aerolineas del Sur is Aerolineas Argentinas sister company, both being owned by Marsans Group.

Quoting Aero (Reply 28):
However i hope LatinAmerican understands the changes of its attitude sooner than later.

I don't get the meaning of this. Please care to explain?

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:26 am

Some excellent points Gastón, the best of which I would say was the one of Latin America not being ready for deregulation.

With respect to LAN, quite right, other Chilean companies are welcome in Argentina. LAN would have earned a lot more respect if it had followed through with more of their promises, and they had a far better chance of delivering on what they said compared to your average Argentine empresario who struggles to even bring a 30-year-old DC-9 into the country.

Argentina's long economic decline also correlates with a similar one in aviation, for those who cannot get to the bottom of the hostility towards LAN. Once upon a time, Argentina was one of the pioneering countries in aviation, and was among the first (in fact the 8th, if I recall) to produce its own jet aircraft. AR was introduced jet-power to commercial aviation in Latin America in 1959, when they acquired their first Comet IV. Three years later, they were the launch customer for the Avro 748. Although they very rarely turned over a profit, AR remained an award-winning, world-class airline right through the '80s.
My point is, the Argentine aviation sector's decline to what it is today has been as embarassing as it has been traumatic, and the truth is that the blame isn't entirely Argentina's fault. In its shattered state, in which the only major airline of national capital is none other than the Air Force's LADE (SW is as good as gone), Argentina's reasons for being less than welcoming towards a supposedly "serious" airline from across the Andes that has been playing foul since Day One should be pretty understandable, if not justifiable.

As for the unification of the continent, remember that even the idea's most avid proponent, Simón Bolívar, admitted near the end of his life that it was an all but impossible goal. It shouldn't be, for many of the resons you list Luis, but it just is. This isn't the US where the majority of the native population was eradicated effectively giving immigrants a clean(er) slate upon which to build a new country. Latin American societies are demographically more complex and more diverse than what they seem to the casual observer, with tremendous variation from one country to another. You could argue that these differences shouldn't spill over into the world of business, but it is only natural that they do.

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 29):
Look at where Chile -the almighty example- (not that I believe it is) is right now. Only one company operating with a certain chance of living through, LAN

It's different, 99% of SCL flights are final destination, and we are only 15 millions with an average income of US$10000. Mix that and you get a natural monopoly, wich you don't only see in aviation, but also in cable tv, supermarkets, etc. Natural monopoly, a well studied and defined economic term, is a characteristics of industries intensive in capital and with no enough costumers to sustain several players.
Open skies is the best we could do, our prices dropped and in those routes with no competition, prices are regulated.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 29):
Jumbo are all owned by Cencosud, still nobody is complaining about them

K is
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:43 am

Máximo: Brilliant post!

Arcano,

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
K is

K hates everybody because that's part of his way of being and a side of the Pinguinoid's political modus operandi. Inflation is the Government's current major headache, as it will be of around 11% by the end of 2005. The 2006 national budget also calculates an inflation rate between 8% and 10%. K thinks that by screaming out loud to all supermarket owners, prices will drop. It does not happen only to Cencosud - it happened all European big companies (Carrefour, Auchan, etc.) and to national owners too (Coto, Disco, San Pedro, etc.).

I suppose the Estilo K impresses people abroad, and it does not give a specially good impression. However, that's his way of being and you should neither be surprised nor scared of what he says, as he rarely ever goes beyond screaming.

Kirchner, mucho ruido y pocas nueces.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-11-26 19:46:33]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
lanperu
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 1:17 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 14):
XL and LP does use full Peruvian/Ecuadorian crews.

Umm no they dont..I am in Santiago right now lol. I flew Lan Peru 607 LAX-LIM in Business and the service was bad to say the least..I will elaborate later..but the crews were all chilean...they are just based in LIM but they are Chilean...
 
Aero
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:55 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:56 pm

Thanks for the brief update on Argentine aviation´s history. I did not want to accuse "Argentina" of being the bad guy, I´m just concerned about your statement on free trade, liberalisation, foreign investments, integration and of course the image damages this politicians (like "K") are causing to Argentina and to LatAm reputation.

I´ve been a couple of time in BUE (love it), have friends there and i know how they think about foreign investors. Of course, no point in generalizing, but it gives you an idea.

You might be right, Chile might feel lonely in LatAm (with a few exceptions i would say), that´s why this tiny little country at the end of the world became the most liberalized country in the world in terms of free trade, at this point member of APEC and with free trade agreements with the European Union, USA, Canada, México, China, Singapore and soon Japan and India.

Chile is not as important as Brazil or Argentina, but it´s worth to have a look at this country and its companies (hated or not), which are doing a very good job.


However I appreciate your points, some of them very good, so that´s why we exchange opinions here. It´d be better to have a A.Net meeting once in a while.

LAN went to Argentina to make money!..it´s not a charity entity, so of course the purposes are different from a state-owned company (LAFSA?). I wonder why "K" hasn´t complain yet about LAN.

The good news is: you make the choice when you next fly to Mendoza or Miami.

Best,
Aero
LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:22 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 16):
JFK
MIA
DFW
IAH
IAD
ATL
ORD

Rather impressive, seven cities nonstop

I thought UA dropped ORD-EZE, correct?

Quoting Aero (Reply 26):
Someone here has mentioned it before and i completely agree: Get rid of those stupid regulations such as "investors need to be 49% Argentinean, Peruvians, Brazilian" and companies would save lot of money creating subsidiaries instead of flying themselves.

Of course, then LA could fly to Europe with a stop-over in GRU...thanks, but NO! And what is the advantage of Brazilian airlines? Flying from SCL onwards? Good joke!

Brazil as well as Argentina need to regulate their aviation domestic market, the same way the US and Japan and many other countries in Europe also do.
[It is similar to the agricultural game Europe (i.e. France) and the US are playing nowadays at the international market]. This language of free trade is very nice spoken, but in practice I'm yet to see any relevant country play by the rules.

Rgs,
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:52 am

Just in time for the new flights, effective 01Dec05, LANArgentina (and LANEcuador) are now AAdvantage members.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 36):

I thought UA dropped ORD-EZE, correct?

No. It is a seasonal service.
a.
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:23 am

Does anybody know if the flight leaved on time?

At this time, AA2000 shows "boarding", so there could be some minutes of delay

Quoting Marambio (Reply 30):
Tell that to the Chileans, Luis. Every single South American country is a member of one of the two free trade groups - the CAN or Mercosur. The exception: Chile, which has got a special agreement with the USA. Argentina is really promoting integration now, sponsoring Venezuela's and Mexico's entrance to the Mercosur. And, as far as I know, Chile could really benefit from being a member of the CAN, and even more of Mercosur, of which South America's two biggest markets (Brazil and Argentina) are members. However, if Chile feels like being the region's lonely star, let it be.

Unfair analysis leading to leave the perception of a separatist country. Chile is not full member of Mercosur ONLY for duty reasons: out import duty is a flat 6%, level not willing to take by Mercosur members. It would be suicidal and useless for us to close now the economy after the huge cost we paid in the 80s for opening the economy.

So it's not a matter of nationalism or lack of interest, Chile and Mercosur have different foreign exchange policies, so there could be no full integration. Chile has requested to Mercosur members to reconsider the duty policies.

Besides, Mercosur has not created a lot of commerce, just a deviation of commerce mostly shared by Brazil and Argentina. Deviation of commerce is a side effect implied in free trade associations.



Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
ArgInMIA
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 4:07 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:28 am

1st flight was cancelled
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6305
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
promotional fare of 915 US$

Does not sound so promotional to me. Is it an attractive fare, friends from Argentina?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 40):
Does not sound so promotional to me. Is it an attractive fare, friends from Argentina?

No, AR is usually 800 tops.

Quoting ArgInMIA (Reply 39):
1st flight was cancelled

First flight has been rerouted through Santiago, using a CC- registered plane, chilean cabin crew.

So much for LAN Argentina. They didn't get the necessary permissions to fly the route, so they flew it as LAN Chile.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
USADreamliner
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:33 pm

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
LAN Argentina will begin on Dec. 1st its daily service between EZE and MIA with a 767. On their webpage they offer a promotional fare of 915 US$.

PROMOTIONAL? Is this a joke? Maybe $ 591?

Just a comment, please visit airlinequality.com and check the comments about LAN and the comments about AR.I must say that passengers are more pleased with AR than LAN .

USADreamliner  wave 
 
EZEIZA
Topic Author
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 41):
First flight has been rerouted through Santiago, using a CC- registered plane, chilean cabin crew.

So much for LAN Argentina. They didn't get the necessary permissions to fly the route, so they flew it as LAN Chile.

If I got it right, the flight 4M 4520 was cancelled and pax were rerouted as you correctly said (through a regular) LA flight 6502 via SCL.
Great start ...

Gaston, do you know when they will get the permissions?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 40):
Does not sound so promotional to me. Is it an attractive fare, friends from Argentina?



Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 42):
PROMOTIONAL? Is this a joke? Maybe $ 591?

Don't shoot the messenger Big grin
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Aero
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:55 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:59 pm

Hi Guys:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 43):
If I got it right, the flight 4M 4520 was cancelled and pax were rerouted as you correctly said (through a regular) LA flight 6502 via SCL.
Great start ...

Well apparently they had some issues. At least Paxs were not stranded. I guess they could have been transported by AA too.

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 42):
Just a comment, please visit airlinequality.com and check the comments about LAN and the comments about AR.I must say that passengers are more pleased with AR than LAN .

I check very regular this page, i always find complains about Lufthansa and British Airways...usually people are willing to express their opinion when they are angry and not when they´re happy.

However you will find lot of good words for LAB - Bolivia.

and no doubt..before LanChile became LAN, service was much better!
Had a great flight FRA-MAD-FRA with LAN though.

Aero
LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:42 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 43):
Gaston, do you know when they will get the permissions?

The flights are blocked in the reservation systems until May 2006. This means 'LAN Argentina' is in serious trouble.

Quoting Aero (Reply 44):
Well apparently they had some issues. At least Paxs were not stranded. I guess they could have been transported by AA too

Some passengers demanded their money back calling it a scam, too. I think it's a big case of fraudulent marketing. LAN could get in even more serious trouble for this.
It seems that they have come to realized that their planes need to be committed to LAN Argentina and CANNOT fly out of free will on any of the 'LAN' branches around the continent.

Good for Argentine authorities, enforcing the law [this should be done always]

Cheers!  
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

[Edited 2005-12-02 10:43:15]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Jj
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:40 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:19 am

So what's the deal now? no LAN Argentina international flights for the time being? I'm glad that the government (or whoever it was) finally enforced the law!!! I'm really proud today. If the chileans thought they could get away with these illegal flights, they have been shown that while we may be mostly corrupt, there are times when law prevails over corruption.

What will LAN do now? reroute everyone through SCL?
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 45):
The flights are blocked in the reservation systems until May 2006. This means 'LAN Argentina' is in serious trouble.

Indeed, why was that? what happens in May?

Quoting Jj (Reply 46):
If the chileans thought they could get away ...

"If the chileans"???? and then you people say that this is not about countries?!?!?!
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 47):
Indeed, why was that? what happens in May?

Basically, they tried to use the same system as in LAN Peru and LAN Ecuador. Argentine law does not allow that. I believe they are having May 2006 as an estimated date when they can comply with all the technical and practical aspects of the law - that is, having LV- registered 767s - that will have to stay committed to LAN Argentina.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 47):
"If the chileans"???? and then you people say that this is not about countries?!?!?!

Do not Generalize.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: LAN Argentina To Begin EZE-MIA On Dec. 1st

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:28 am

Good evening gentlemen,

I just got this e-mail from my travel agent, which I thought may be interesting. Since most (if not all) of those who read this thread are fluent Spanish speakers, I will not bother to translate it.

CANCELACIÓN VUELO NON STOP A MIAMI POR LAN

LAN informa que la operación internacional de LAN Argentina Buenos Aires - Miami que originalmente empezaba a operar el 1ro de diciembre de 2005, ha debido ser postergada debido a restricciones operativas.
Dada esta situación, a los pasajeros con reserva y boleto emitido (ambas a la vez), se ofrecerán las siguientes alternativas de protección:

* Para los vuelos de viernes 2, sábado 3 y domingo 4 de diciembre:
Los vuelos se operarán con escala técnica en Santiago de Chile. El horario de salida es idéntico a la operación original, llegando a MIA 2.30hs después del itinerario original.
1. A los pasajeros de Clase Económica:
* Se ofrece viaje con escala técnica en SCL con compensación o,
* Se ofrece devolución del 100% del tkt o,
* Se ofrece cambio de fecha sin penalidad, para boletos emitidos hasta el 2 de diciembre 2005.

2. A los pasajeros de Clase Ejecutiva:
* Se ofrece en Aeropuerto u Oficina LAN, endoso a American Ailrines en vuelo directo o,
* Se ofrece operación vía Santiago de Chile con compensación o,
* Se ofrece devolución del 100% del ticket o,
* Se ofrece cambio de fecha sin penalidad.

* Para los vuelos a partir del lunes 5 de diciembre 2005 (excepto mie 7-12 y vie 9-12):
Se cancela la operación de Lan Argentina, y se ofrecen los vuelos de Lan Chile vía Santiago de Chile, con horario de partida desde Buenos Aires a las 20.20hs, y salidas desde Miami a las 20.15 hs.


Have a nice weekend you all.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-12-04 02:31:10]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos