LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:45 am

As per an article in Standard, India and Hong Kong are set to start a new round of discussions before the end of 2005. The previous talks collapsed in January 2005.

Selected Quotes:
All passenger and cargo rights established in the current India-Hong Kong bilateral agreement are already being used. Last year, 233,000 passengers flew between India and Hong Kong, an increase of 50 percent year on year.
End of Quotes. Link:
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/Business/GG12Ae07.html

I think India would benefit a lot from an open skies agreement with Hong Kong phased in from 2007 when most of Indian carriers will have additional aircrafts. Hong Kong is ideally located for business traffic to China and west coast USA, and tourist/VFR traffic on India-USA sector.

It is a much better location than SIN, KL, and BKK which carries a lot of India-USA traffic. Travel time to USA will be reduced by at least 3 hours and many more hours in transit if the flights are scheduled properly. Currently transit time in SIN,KL, and BKK can be upwards of 8 hours.

Why did the talks collapse last time? Is Hong Kong willing to provide fifth freedom for Indian carriers to all points? Is India willing to provide fifth freedom to all points and access to all Indian cities? Does any one know?

[Edited 2005-11-24 19:47:49]
 
blrBird
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:39 am

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
It is a much better location than SIN, KL, and BKK which carries a lot of India-USA traffic.

True, it is the one of best (other being NRT & ICN) transit point betwn US/Canada west coast and India.

Last talks were held on Jan 28 2005 in Hong Kong.
Agenda...

Hong Kong:
Daily access to BOM and DEL (deal breaker)
Acesss to secondary cities (BLR & MAA)
Broad expansion of fifth freedoms
Airlines wish list :
CX - daily BOM & DEL, and add on BLR or MAA
KA - BLR

India
Beyond rights through HKG to the United States (deal breaker)
Access for new private carriers from India (9W & S2)
Airlines wish list :
AI - BOM-HKG-US
9W - BOM-HKG-LAX
S2 - DEL-HKG

JP Morgan regional(Asia/Pacific) transport analyst Peter Negline said.

Quote:
"I am optimistic about the potential for what could come out of this round of talks, But even if there is a 100 per cent increase in frequencies, it will still be considered a capacity-constrained market."



Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Why did the talks collapse last time?
Is Hong Kong willing to provide fifth freedom for Indian carriers to all points?

Talks collapsed due to HKG not granting beyond rights and India not agreeing to daily access to BOM & DEL to HK carriers. This was like chicken and egg thing.

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Is India willing to provide fifth freedom to all points and access to all Indian cities? Does any one know?

No, India was willing only for 5th freedom from BOM and additional access only to BLR/MAA , not to other Indian cities.

It will be interesting to see what will be the out come from the latest round of talks when ever they happen!
from star dust....
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:36 am

Can another carrier operate with fifth freedom rights between Hong Kong and India? Could someone like UA form the US which has open skies with India operate HKG-India now? They used to, but I don't know how it works out now.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:31 am

I hope we get AI 777's or 744's IF they agree to all points.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
TKMCE
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 12:18 pm

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
Can another carrier operate with fifth freedom rights between Hong Kong and India?

Swiis Air used to do so for somewhen they had their flights ZRH BOM HKG. This was I think the till the mid 1990s or so.
 
LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
Daily access to BOM and DEL (deal breaker)



Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
Beyond rights through HKG to the United States (deal breaker)

Are both sides willing to compromise? Both sides have a lot to gain from open skies agreement-India more so in the long run.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4367
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
Talks collapsed due to HKG not granting beyond rights and India not agreeing to daily access to BOM & DEL to HK carriers. This was like chicken and egg thing.

I dont think so you are correct...I worked for CX in the summers of 2002/03/04 and in the summer of 2004 I was told that recently at that time talks were held between DEL and HKG Govt's which saw :

HKG Govt and CX willing to grant AI daily 5th freedom rights across the Pacific to SFO/LAX but AI and DEL Govt wasnt too keen on CX getting 4 weekly BLR + daily DEL & BOM flights so it broke down there as AI and DEL saw that CX would have more to gain than AI would in this regard.

CX are more keen on BLR than on MAA.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1444
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6):
CX are more keen on BLR than on MAA.

I don't doubt it, I know many people flying to BLR on Cathay, Cathay till SIN, and IC from there on. CX would definitely make money on BLR, no doubt about that.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6):
HKG Govt and CX willing to grant AI daily 5th freedom rights across the Pacific to SFO/LAX but AI and DEL Govt wasnt too keen on CX getting 4 weekly BLR + daily DEL & BOM flights so it broke down there as AI and DEL saw that CX would have more to gain than AI would in this regard.

True enough, yet one key point missing: the real dealbreaker in during the last talks was the refusal of the Hong Kong Government to provide for 5th freedom rights to any other airlines than Air India. Apparently CX was willing to tolerate AI on the routes, but wouldn't settle for the potentially much tougher competition of Jet and Sahara.
 
Nimish
Posts: 2911
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:06 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Apparently CX was willing to tolerate AI on the routes, but wouldn't settle for the potentially much tougher competition of Jet and Sahara.

That does sound rather unfair! Why should HKG discriminate between the different Indian carriers - AI vs. 9W vs. S2? If CX is good, it will prevail..
Incredible India!
 
cricket
Posts: 2085
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:32 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
potentially much tougher competition of Jet and Sahara.

AI isn't that bad....
No but the lack of daily frequencies to HKG is a problem - Last year when I went to HKG I had to fly TG via BKK, many of my friends who work for Star TV and have to go to HKG often fly SQ, MH or TG (and sometimes AI) which aren't cheaper. HKG is desperately underserved and Hong Kong Tourism which is promoting itself aggressively finds the lack of direct flights a massive problem - why would you want to fly two four hour flights instead of one 6 hour flight.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
Nimish
Posts: 2911
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:57 pm

I can see why CX want BLR - they already have a lot of people doing BLR-BOM-BKK-HKG-SFO or BLR-SIN (on IC) - HKG-SFO routings. Imagine if they could instead take BLR-HKG-SFO all the way on CX - who's service is miles ahead of LH/AF/BA (the current competition on BLR-SFO one stop flights).

In addition there's that fact that HKG is visa on arrival for Indians (like BKK), plus it's the gateway to China - the demand for such a flight must be huge.
Incredible India!
 
LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Hong Kong-India Bilateral

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
True, it is the one of best (other being NRT & ICN) transit point betwn US/Canada west coast and India.

HKG is a preferred tourist location than NRT,ICN and therefore a better hub for India-China/North America sectors. I read that Korea is planning to promote itself as a tourist destination for Indians. I have been to Korea several times and do not see how it will be an attractive location for Indian tourists.

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