skyhigh777
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United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:56 am

Hey guys,

I was just wondering why United does not have a direct flight from Dulles to Honolulu? I know they have their other hubs in Los Angeles and San Francisco that act as a gateway to asia primarily, but airlines like Continental have hubs in Houston as well but still fly directly to HNL from EWR. Do you think it would ever be in the realm of possibility for United to start a direct IAD-HNL route? Would the numbers be profitable or are customers from the East coast or DC area going to always have to connect through LA or SFO?
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aloha73g
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting SkyHigh777 (Thread starter):
are customers from the East coast or DC area going to always have to connect through LA or SFO?

or Denver or Chicago.

-Aloha!
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AMS
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting SkyHigh777 (Thread starter):
I was just wondering why United does not have a direct flight from Dulles to Honolulu?

I think you mean the word 'Non stop'; as direct may involve a stop on the way. There used to be a direct flight from IAD-HNL with a stop in LAX. I am not sure if UA still operates this flight. The CO flight from EWR seems to have heavy loads on most of the flights. The only issue is that it will misconnect to most European flights arriving later in the afternoon.

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AMS
 
roseflyer
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:43 am

IAD-HNL would be an interesting flight. It is extremely long. It might be out of the range of the two class 777s that UA operates to Hawaii. Also are there contract issues with rest on this long of a flight that UA would have to deal with for pilots or flight attendants? That was a huge issue in the delay of starting ORD-HNL up after the DC10s left.

IAD is really far to have much traffic to HNL. The caribbean is a more popular place to vacation in for those on the east coast. Hawaii is great for residents of the western half of the country, but filling up a 2-class 777 or 767 with O/D traffic from IAD might be too difficult. IAD serves a much smaller metro area than EWR. And connecting traffic can already transit through ORD, DEN, SFO or LAX on UA, so the addition of IAD might not be useful. Maybe one day it will happen, but UA already does a good job of flying to Hawaii from its hubs.
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gigneil
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:29 am

IAD-HNL is within range of the 777-200A, but I'm not sure demand exists.

N
 
Kahala777
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:07 am

Washington to Honolulu, is not going to happen. At least for the short term. Washington to Honolulu, if it happened would have to be a late afternoon to early evening departure, so as to meet with the connecting traffic. In addition United Airlines is much to happy with its current operations to Honolulu from Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, and Denver.

Something of interest to you is that now since United Airlines has a Pleasant Hawaiian boost, you very well could be seeing the big boys back in Honolulu from time to time. And also a very good chance of seeing some Hawaii point to point to the West Coast operated. Nothing is for sure, only speculated at this point. The numbers looks good well into 2006.

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skyhigh777
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:20 pm

Awesome, thanks for all the replies. I think United's 777's would definately make it to Hawaii. ANA's 777 makes it to Tokyo non-stop from IAD, so I am sure the Hawaii route would be no problem. Also, the DC metro area alone has almost 6 million people, which is not as huge as NY metro but it sure is extremely populated, so I am pretty sure there would have to be a large enough demand. The only reasonable explanations would be the difficulty of the connection times with incoming flights from Europe. Other than that, I think it would be very interesting to see United start something up!
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onedude
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:26 pm

Also the yield. UA could operate a 777 for the same flight period to Asia or Europe with an improved ROI.
 
flightopsguy
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:28 pm

Back in the 1960's, UAL had a BWI-HNL nonstop using long range DC-8-62 aircraft.
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Cory6188
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:51 pm

If CO's 764 can make it from EWR-HNL, then I'm sure that a UA 777 could handle IAD-HNL.
 
UN_B732
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:19 pm

This could happen with their IAD expansion, what about a 763?
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roseflyer
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting SkyHigh777 (Reply 6):
I think United's 777's would definately make it to Hawaii. ANA's 777 makes it to Tokyo non-stop from IAD, so I am sure the Hawaii route would be no problem.



Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 9):
If CO's 764 can make it from EWR-HNL, then I'm sure that a UA 777 could handle IAD-HNL

United's two class 777s are older models that are not the ER version. They have a listed range of 5,210mi. IAD-HNL is 4,817mi, which is very close to the limit of that plane. Would UA need to put a 772ER on the route in order to make it work? If so I am doubtful that it could happen.
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PanAm747
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:03 am

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how many UA/UE cities that have flights only to IAD and not ORD? I would imagine that number is quite small, hence UA's desire to route Hawai'i passengers through ORD instead of IAD.

Certain flights work better through certain hubs - didn't UA cancel SFO-CDG? Doesn't mean you can't still get there, you just have to go through a different hub.
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FA4UA
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 8):
Also the yield. UA could operate a 777 for the same flight period to Asia or Europe with an improved ROI

EXACTLY!

Lately the question within United is "where can we best utilize our assets". Using a 777 for a route like this which is known to have very low yeilds means sacrificing that aircraft from another route which might prove more profitable.

FA4UA
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SHUPirate1
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 12):
how many UA/UE cities that have flights only to IAD and not ORD?

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JeffB
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:33 am

Didn't UAL do the Non-stop before? I could have sworn that myy brother-in-law flew that line back in 2000. It was my impressions that they stopped after 9/11 becuase of downsizing. Anyone have an old UAL timetable?

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 10):
This could happen with their IAD expansion

United is expanding operations @ IAD? Interesting! Didn't know that! By how much?
 
dutchjet
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:43 am

Two things to consider:

UA is short on longhaul aircraft and I do not think that dedicating a 767 or 777 to the IAD-HNL route is a priority - as pointed out, pax travelling for IAD to HNL have a multitude of connection possibilities in the UA route system and UA provides service to HNL (and other Hawaiian destinations) from other hubs in its route system. The east coast-Hawaii market is limited as most east coast pax looking for a beach holiday tend to head to the caribbean, mexico or Florida, all of which are cheaper and closer.....CO has been able to make its EWR-HNL flight work with the support of its huge EWR hub.

Yeilds and revenue on flights to Hawaii are not great.....they are better than they were years ago when entire airplanes headed to Hawaii seemed to be filled with frequent flyers cashing in rewards, but the yeilds still cannot compare with those generated by international flights from the US to Latin Ameirca, Europe or Asia. UA does well in the Hawaiian markets, but a nonstop flight from IAD is simply not justified........remember, when UA retired the last of their DC10s, they even dropped their long-running flagship route from ORD to HNL for several years.
 
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United_fan
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:38 am

Dutchjet,when UA stopped ORD-HNL (flt 43/44) with the Diesel 10's (1 off only 2 DC-10 routes , other being ORD-LAS)in Feb 2001, they didn't restart that route with a 763 (like A^A) or a 777 because of the pilots' union. They had a different set of rules because;1 - ORD-HNL is considered a domestic route (though a very long one) and 2;a 767/777 is a 2-man flightdeck and the union rules had them wanting a relief pilot which UA didn't want.
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SESGDL
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:42 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
IAD-HNL is within range of the 777-200A, but I'm not sure demand exists.

There's definitely demand, though a 767-300ER would most likely be the aircraft choice. US East Coast to Hawaii hasn't been to popular over the years. The only routes I know of are ATL-HNL/OGG and EWR-HNL.

Jeremy
 
skyhigh777
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:09 pm

Are the ATL-HNL and EWR-HNL profitable to Delta and Continental?
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mbm3
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting SkyHigh777 (Reply 19):
Are the ATL-HNL and EWR-HNL profitable to Delta and Continental?

I believe cargo alone makes these routes profitable.
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UnitedTristar
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 18):

There's definitely demand, though a 767-300ER would most likely be the aircraft choice. US East Coast to Hawaii hasn't been to popular over the years. The only routes I know of are ATL-HNL/OGG and EWR-HNL.

UA's 2 cabin 767's have been derated from ER status. There is no way a standard -300 would make the route.

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727EMflyer
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:19 am

Aircraft aside, I believe the route could work. The tourism authority in Hawaii is pushing for expansion into the east coast market. If people get the bug to go to hawaii, they are going to want a convenient flight. Case in point, I just got off a UA flight HNL-NRT, sitting next to a 1k gent who lives in Honolulu, but is originally from New York. He pointed out that while he Travels a lot to Asia on UA, if he wants to go back to NYC then CO is the way to go, even sitting in the back! With a connection in ORD you already have a 9 hour flight but have to add in the connection time and additional flight time, meaning you travel upwards of 15 hours. Take a non-stop to EWR and you have only 11 hours!

Now, DC might not be as big of a market as NYC but it is one of the largest on the east coast! In addition to the tourism market you also have a lot to consider there are a lot of military folks in Hawaii who need to travel to the DC and Virginia areas for business and who are east coast natives that would like to visit mom & dad. There is plenty of traffic to fill the route. I'd say if UA had the money to experiment and the aircraft available it would be worth a seasonal test run.
 
desertjets
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 14):
Amsterdam, Binghamton, Brussels, Charlottesville, Buenos Aires, New York-Kennedy, Chicago-Midway, State College, Zurich

So the markets that don't have service to ORD, but to IAD, are all either small, co-terminals to cities w/ service to ORD, or within a 2 hr drive to a United destination w/ service to ORD. Or are international markets that in all honesty probably have little to no O&D to HNL.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 23):
So the markets that don't have service to ORD, but to IAD, are all either small, co-terminals to cities w/ service to ORD, or within a 2 hr drive to a United destination w/ service to ORD. Or are international markets that in all honesty probably have little to no O&D to HNL.

Or a co-terminal to Chicago-O'Hare itself.
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Kahala777
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 22):
The tourism authority in Hawaii is pushing for expansion into the east coast market.

Word has it that Hawaiian Airlines is in the market for additional aircraft to add St. Louis, Dallas, Baltimore, New York.JFK, and Toronto. However, at current they are taking a wait and see attitude. Odds have it that New York will be number one in priority for expansion.

KAHALA777
 
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United_fan
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:05 am

Other than HA's SYD runs,a 763ER is kinda overkill IMO . So,longer runs could be a possibility.
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Kahala777
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 26):
Other than HA's SYD runs,a 763ER is kinda overkill IMO . So,longer runs could be a possibility.

You would be amazed at the Load Factors on Hawaiian Airlines flights. To many peoples shock routes such as Sacramento, San Diego, and Portland go out with loads in excess of 85% on a daily basis. Hawaiian Airlines, needs teh 767 on its West Coast network. The only other option would be the 753 in an all Economy configuration. That is the only narrowbody that would help Hawaiian, with its already stunning West Coast performance. It is possible that we will see a few more long haul widebody birds added to Hawaiian in recent years. Many are still saying that Hawaiian still wants the A330. It has yet to be seen.

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dutchjet
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:20 am

Seriously, folks, do you really think that launching a long domestic leisure route that will tie up more than one 767 on a daily basis is a priority at UA? UA will use its longhaul widebody capacity on new overseas routes where there is far more money to be made and where UA can tap into new markets.

The IAD-HNL is simply not important enough to warrant nonstop service. Pax travelling between IAD and the Hawaiian islands can connect at ORD, SFO, LAX or DIA......also pax travelling from IAD to Hawaiian destinations other than HNL can connect at SFO or LAX for nonstop flights that go directly to their final destination and avoid changing planes at HNL. Pax from other east coast cities flying UA to the Hawaiian islands can just as easily and quickly connect at SFO, LAX, ORD or DIA......thus, the IAD-HNL flight is not required.

The US East Coast-Hawaii market is not that huge, and does not warrant lots of nonstop flights......as pointed out, there are nonstops from two eastern US cities to Honolulu: one is the DL out of ATL - DL's operation and strength at ATL is overwhelming with so much feed and so many connection possibilities and thats why DL's flights to Hawaii work out of ATL; the other is CO out of EWR - CO's EWR-HNL operation is backed up by the very effective CO hub at EWR plus lots of O&D traffic from the entire NYC area (CO is the only nonstop service). Seriously, UA's hub at IAD cannot compare to DL's operation at ATL and the Washington DC area does not compare with the NYC metro area as far as passenger numbers (never mind CO's very good operation at EWR).

UA is right in not bothering with a nonstop IAD-HNL flight - while at a first glance such a service may make sense, in real life, there are better opportunities out there for UA to explore.
 
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United_fan
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:39 am

Kahala,I was trying to say that the 'ER' part of 767-300ER is overkill for West Coast to Hawaii. That's probably why HA had DC-10-10's . But this way they can use any 767 for a SYD flight not just 'ER' ones.
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ha763
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 28):
The US East Coast-Hawaii market is not that huge, and does not warrant lots of nonstop flights

The East Coast market has been growing but is limited by the lack of non-stop flights. The West Coast is Hawaii's biggest market and is still growing which limits the amount of seats available for pax connecting from the East Coast. Even with this limitation, the East Coast historically makes up about 44% of the US East market, which basically are the states east of the Rocky Mountains.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 29):
the 'ER' part of 767-300ER is overkill for West Coast to Hawaii. That's probably why HA had DC-10-10's .

It isn't overkill, but doesn't always use the 763ER to its full potential, at least for most Hawaii-West Coast routes. The DC-10-10s couldn't do OGG-LAX or SAN-HNL without weight limitations. This is why these were always DC-10-30s and were the first routes to get the 767s. The DC-10-10 also couldn't do OGG-SEA, non-stop. This flight was routed OGG-HNL-SEA when it was a DC-10-10. Also, the non-stop LAS-HNL DC-10-10 charter flights had to stop in LAX quite often because of weight limits due to the heat in LAS.
 
daron4000
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RE: United IAD-HNL?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Unitedtristar (Reply 21):
UA's 2 cabin 767's have been derated from ER status

This week I flew on a 2-class 767 and right on the nose of the plane it said 767-322ER. I guess that maybe this has changed since the paint was applied, or they still aer ER version.

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